fiatlux

Enthusiasts come in all shapes and sizes. All you have to do is like cars, appreciate cars, and be excited about cars. So as a car enthusiast, sure, I think it counts. As a performance car enthusiast...maybe not so much.

At least, that's how I would gatekeep.

Tesla1856

That's a Top Gun movie reference, right?

ELIN

I'm liking the TH guys. Can't believe rolling start vs cold start can be so different for these cars!

ELIN

The Stinger is a nice car but could use a new look. Should be up for a redesign soon, no?

fiatlux

C&D recorded 0-60 in 5 seconds flat for the Sonata. Methinks the winter tires really hamstrung the Sonata with all that torque and power being fed through just the front wheels. They even said turning off LC resulted in the front tires getting roasted. A rolling start eliminates traction from the equation, so it's a much truer measure of the real power/weight ratio, and is much more consistent with what we would expect based on the on paper numbers.

F23A4

Reading the C/D article on the Sonata N Line, I'm starting to soften when it comes to the Hyundai brand. With a 1/4 mile time of 13.6 sec @ 106 mph, this thing is as quick as the Q50S (a twin turbo V6) but trapping 3 mph faster. (Not to mention that it outgrips and outbrakes the Q50.)

Jon Ikeda better step to the plate with the Type S.

Flapjackura

Here's a newbie question - forgive me in advance. How do you all think the somewhat lighter FWD TLX 2 would have done in this comparison - better? Worse? Explanations welcome.

ELIN

Since they were all neutered by winter tires, I would have to think a FWD TLX2 would have done better just from the reduced weight.

ELIN

Anyone know which trim TLX was used? It definitely wasn't the A-Spec. If it was the Advanced, there could potentially be a 500 lb difference from the other 2 cars!

F23A4

Agreed, not unlike the 1G TLX where mag testing would indicate that the PAWS 3.5 out accelerates the SH-AWD version. That said, I think the result would have been the same, just slightly less margin.

Flapjackura

Appeared to be an Advance, but I would have to re-watch the vid to make sure.

fiatlux

Acceleration from a dig might be worse (although we know the SHAWD TLX doesn't/can't launch very hard anyways, so it might be moot), but from a roll definitely better.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

You are correct. The stinger (including the G70) are both getting a refresh design. Rumors are the 2.0T is being dropped for the 2.5T engine (The same one in the video). Chances are the 3.3TT engine will remain (Would be awesome if they did drop it for the 3.5TT)

Well.. Launch would be worse and roll would be better. How worse / better? Hard to tell since there's a ton of different factors.

bilirubin

From what I gather, you can select the launch RPM on the N-line's launch control, perhaps that also needed tweaking to account for traction in the cold. But yeah, one of the benefits of AWD is more consistent launches. As per C&D, the Sonata suffers from significant torque steer (which is to be expected with 300+ lb-ft of torque on FWD). The Sonata might be quicker in a 'best-case scenario' launch, but the TLX might be more consistent with it's launches, hence the TLX winning on ThrottleHouse's drag race. Perhaps C&D should also start publishing average times and standard deviation for their 0-60 numbers.

ELIN

No, it appears to be a bug in the launch control from pre-production units. Likely the TH guys had one as well. From the C&D article:

"After some investigating by Hyundai, they discovered a software glitch that limits torque if too much brake pressure is applied during launch starts. Our test car was a pre-production unit and Hyundai assures us the programming will be recalibrated for production cars."

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-n-line-drive/

BEAR-AvHistory

There are a number of reasons given to do 5-60 but never thought much of them. Engineering is optimized for a standing start which is real world. Look at all the performance cars that have Launch Control (LC). If you are going to accelerate hard you are not going to roll out to 5 then punch it. It also eliminates the turbos from most turbo cars unless you know how to beat the system. The magazines know but like to have a bit of controversy to stimulate sales. Also since it can't be applied precisely to each car so it becomes an unfair measurement.

The magazines specifically say 5-60 is to eliminate the starting line advantage that is engineered into the cars. Back it the bad old old days a well driven VW Bug could beat my 425BHP 409 half to three quarters of the way across an intersection before it got its lunch eaten & candy money stolen. After that it was all the Beach Boys. So the answer is no Frances that Sonata is not quicker than the Porsche Panamera 3.0T Et al.

The other real measurement IMHO which the magazines do run is the Mexican 60 or 70 to 130 run. There is a big horsepower Nissan GT-R that can do it in 2.55 seconds. Back to normal street cars 85 to 105 is something I would look for as a passing tool in 85mph traffic.

BEAR-AvHistory

Those sneaky guys at BMW just pulled another fast one creating the fastest FWD C&D ever tested with a heart (engine) transplant using a 301BHP 4 cylinder engine from the X2 M35i into a Mini.

C&D fastest so far FWD.

leomio85

Nice. Looks like this Sonata N-Line is going to put some pressure on Honda's next gen Accord.

fiatlux

I actually think 5-60 is a better real-world measure of a car's performance. Just how often are owners willing to launch a car out on public roads? Especially if they want their drivetrain to last more than a few months. I imagine for most of us, when we go WOT from a stop we're not brake boosting or dumping the clutch. And more practically, WOT typically happens when we're already moving (for instance, merging onto the highway, passing a car, etc.) rather than from a dead stop.

ELIN

I understand why folks like the MC but I could never buy one myself. In an accident, I rather be the bigger car!

BEAR-AvHistory

How often are cars going to 5mph then going WOT. I don't even do that in my COBRA when I loaf off the line against a slower car. Get rolling then smoothly apply the power. We will disagree but don't see any practical real world application of a 5-60 time.

Also not trying to defend any performance short comings as my 5-60 according to C&D is 4.5 sec which is better than a lot of the street cars 0-60 time.

Sort of inline with what a lot of guys here hope the TLX-S 0 to 60 time is. Wonder what the TLX-S 5 to 60 time will be since its turbo which is handicapped by that measure.

Car and Driver 2020 Z4 M40i Road Test
Zero to 60mph 3.7 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 9.1 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 15.8
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 4.5 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 2.6 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.8 sec
¼-mile: 12.2 sec @ 116 mph
Top speed (governor limited, C/D est): 165 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 148 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 1.02 g

C/D FUEL ECONOMY (real world)
75-mph highway driving: 38 mpg
Highway range: 510 miles

Not bad for a small 13.7 gallon tank. Will generally outlast my bladder. Fortunately for me my longest run is 482 miles Raleigh NC to Spring Lake NJ. Just within my no stops bladder limit.

fiatlux

The 5 is just an arbitrary value. Practically speaking it's a way to represent lifting off the brake and mashing the pedal from a stop, which is better represented by 5-60 than the 0-60 numbers which can involve brake boosting, clutch dumping, and launch control systems. I contend the former is more common than the latter. Would you rather it be called 1-60? 0.5-60? Let me ask you, how often do you clutch dump your Cobra when you drive it? Probably not much, right? That means the 5-60 number is going to be more relevant than 0-60.

The big problem with 0-60 is that it can be very misleading as a performance metric, whereas 5-60 is much closer to reality for how the vast majority of drivers accelerate. For instance, a WRX will do 0-60 in under 5 seconds, so it sounds like it'd be pretty quick, but unless you clutch dump it will get smoked by a Honda Odyssey. And that shows up when you look at 5-60: a whopping 7 seconds.

BEAR-AvHistory

Yeah there are a lot who feel as you do. I have owned some small cars, Triumph TR3A & B, Morgan +4-SS, FIAT 124 sedan & roadster, StingRay (plastic), 280ZX convertible, 32 FORD 3 window coupe, the Z4 + some I have most likely missed but have never thought much about it. Expect my sudden demise might come from any number of other things I do like flying aerobatics in planes as old or older than I am.

ELIN

Better make it a P-51 Mustang, then!

BEAR-AvHistory

Got a ride in one where the Berlin tank & radio gear were taken out & a seat installed making for tandem seating, but never had the stick. Way above my pay grade. Very slick aircraft

BEAR-AvHistory

Whoa time out. When I lift off the brake not much of anything happens. If it creeps forward its maybe @ 1mph. That's because I have the start/stop shut out. Do start/stop cars move when you release the brake?

Exactly how many time am I going to be riding along at 5 mph & have to hit 60 as quick as possible. Are you suggesting that the Odyssey Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 6.7 sec & 0-60 mph 6.5sec has relevance with cars running up to 3 seconds quicker?

As for the WRX a spread of two or more seconds that could suggest its a WRX issue & one you picked to get the widest spread. Hopefully for then the new Subaru WRX STI To Get 400 HP From 2.4-Liter Turbo Boxer will help them out.

The Z4 spread is 1.2, the M340 is .9, & the WRX 5-60 spread in the 2 second range is well outside the spread of the cars we are talking about,

2021 MB C63 AMG-S
Zero to 60 mph: 3.7 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 8.1 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 13.5 sec
Zero to 150 mph: 18.7 sec
Zero to 170 mph: 27.1 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 4.4 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 11.9 sec @ 122 mph

Since as you say its an arbitrary value say I am running at 10mph instead of 5mph in first so I am now developing some boost. Car has full boost at 1600RPM will have to look tomorrow what speed that is. Regardless the numbers will be significantly different than at 5mph. Right now we get from a standing start 3.7 sec & from a 5mph roll 4.5 sec What will we get from an 8mph, 10 mph or 12 mph roll? Might it be even be quicker than the SS number?

You premise that I would ever dump the clutch on the COBRA as suggest you have never driven a high power low weight short wheelbase car at speed. Your car list does not show anything in the 500BHP+ 2200lb range. It needs to be at the 3/4 shift before I can ever come close to a fast clutch release at anything near WOT. With 12.5" wide 100TR road racing tires a fast sub 3 second 0-60 launch is at 1700RPM with progressive clutch & throttle managing. Any screw ups traction is gone & you are looking at 3.1/3.2sec. time Very few guys are into WOT before 4th unless the car is set up for the drags.

Lots of guy make YouTube thinking they drive just like any other car. Most have never driven a no nanny no power assist car in their lives.

Also its an N/A MT car so does not really fit here

Side Note They are quick regardless but to maximize the car for the drags you need changes to the suspension, add a full cage + drag slicks. Without a cage it would get booted as its both too quick & too fast for NHRA safety requirements. You can make one fullout run & you are then asked not to run anymore.

Private events (expensive) are the only way to let them run as fast as they can.

fiatlux

My understanding is that they choose 5mph because that's the lowest nice "round" number that's guaranteed to be faster than any car's idle speed. They can't do something like 1 or 2mph because then you would have to ride the brakes for some of the cars to slow it down to that speed, which introduces more factors. The easiest most consistent thing is to have the car rolling at idle(ish) speeds (even if it means having to give some cars a little gas), and start the timing as soon as the car goes WOT.

fiatlux

It's not a WRX problem, it's an AWD turbo problem. AWD allow the cars to be making a ton of boost before they launch without just spinning its wheels in place when they launch. The 0-60 times are deceptively fast when compared to how fast they really feel in almost every other situation.

For instance, compare the 0-60 and rolling start (5-60) times:
Focus RS: 4.6s vs 5.7s, 13.4@105
Golf R: 4.5s vs 5.8s, 13.2@106
S3: 4.4s vs 5.6s, 12.9@108
STI: 5.3s vs 7.0s, 13.8@102
Evo X: 4.4s vs 6.0s, 13.3@104

Those quarter mile trap speeds are more consistent with cars that do 0-60 a full second slower than the 0-60 numbers would suggest, and are more in line with cars with similar 5-60 times. I have driven every one of those cars on that list and I can tell you that without launching them, none of them feels as fast or pulls as hard as their 0-60 times would lead you to believe.

The reason I bring up the Odyssey is to highlight the point that 0-60 numbers can be very misleading, in that a sub-5 second car can't even beat a minivan from a roll. 5-60 doesn't lie.

pyrodan007

Imagine if the type-S' 0-60 time is 5.0 but it's 5-60 is 5.1, I'm pretty sure performance fans will blame the car for having slow acceleration even if the other is not bad. I think 0-60 still has a greater importance related to racing, it's the difference between 1st and 2nd place in F1 events 🤷‍♂️

fiatlux

If it does 5-60 in 5.1s, regardless of 0-60, I'd be pretty happy. That would mean it should pull as hard as the C43, and harder than the S4.

Not sure why 0-60 has greater importance than 5-60. 5-60 is a measure of power and weight, which matter 100% of the time on the track. 0-60 factors in the launch, which happens once a race. I'd much rather have a 5 second 0-60 and 5.1 second 5-60 than a 4.5 second 0-60 and 5.5 second 5-60 because it means the former is putting down more power.

bilirubin

The whole 0-60 vs 5-60 issue has already been settled a long time ago. 0-60 represents a 'best-launch' scenario, while 5-60 better represents a 'real-world' scenario...
Why 0-60 Times Don’t Matter in the Real World by Matthew Skwarczek on July 6, 2020.


IMO, I'd rather have an impressive 5-60 time than a 0-60 time. I only use my right foot for the brake and throttle, and don't plan on brake-boosting or using launch control at a red light.

ELIN

I'd prefer if "launch control" stay within the realm of rockets and space ships. Whether I had it in my car or not, I would never use it. As someone said previously, I belong in the group that would rather "look fast than be fast."

I was at a stop light the other day. There was a Subaru WRX next to me. When the light turned green, he launched straight away as fast as he could. Little did he know he was in a race where he was the only participant! I didn't even turn my head to look at the driver before the light turned green, which is the universal sign for "Let's Go!", right?

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

When I smash the gas at a light, i'm not particularly looking to race.
it's just fun.
I have a 6MT.
it's just plain ole fun to row through the gears at launch.

I also have an exhaust. it's just fun to hear the exhaust ricochet against buildings and other cars as the rev's increase as I hit 60mph and beyond.
some of us like fun!
it's like having your own personal roller coaster. The passengers giggle with joy as the G-forces increase and pushes them back against the seat.
so, it's not always about racing other cars. it's the excitement and rush of speed and acceleration from a dead stop

ELIN

Ok, I get that. Little did that driver know that a cop is normally hiding in the trees just a quarter mile after the light since that location does lend itself to drag racing.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

of course, that's the risk you take when you break the law.
which also might lend to the excitement. lol

just pointing out that they're not racing you. they dont care if you engage or not, they're accelerating for their own personal joy, which might come at an expense of jail time and loss of driving privilege

BEAR-AvHistory

BTW saw the R&T article you cut & pasted for defense of the 5-60. Do you really believe as in the article you copied that two guys one in a Mustang 50 & one in a X2 M34 lined up for a traffic light Grand Prix are going to just sit their & wait for a green light before they pushed the gas peddle?

Both have LC. So the Mustang guy says "no wait, no LC & we go on 5mph" so you have no chance to win, really?

Anyone in that situation who wants to have a Traffic Light Grand Prix will do what it takes to optimize their launch.

BTW in the two examples did you choose the WRX because the number was bigger at 7 seconds vs the 6.4 seconds for the X2 in the same article?

Was another guy around here, he went to AUDI IIRC, who pretty much loved & introduced 5-60 & was its greatest champion.

It saved face for his 290BHP V6 TLX 0- 60@5.6 sec getting beaten by a 248BHP I4 cylinder 330i 0-60@5.4 sec. That was in the past today its 255bhp I4 330i 0-60@5.2 sec and 5-60@6.4 sec vs 272bhp I4 0-60@5.9 sec and 0-60@6.5 sec The 5-60 metric does not get the job done 4 vs 4. The 6 vs 6 5-60 numbers should be interesting since the TLX V6 will be a turbo

My take on all this is if its from 5mph someone is not racing so its not relevant. Personally have no real recollection of ever deliberately going to WOT at 5mph. Might have done it but not as a planed exercise. You either racing or you are driving if you are racing there are two venues dead stop start Drag Race & Roll Race.

In drag racing the 5-60 time just makes the first looser feel good.

Roll races are done in Mexico generally 60/70 to 130mph

As I said if the new DOHC TLX can meet or beat my 4.5 second 5-60 time with its 0-60 time it will be hailed as the second coming of a Acura super car. Just imagine if the TLX2 Turbo can knock out a 5-60@ 4.4 sec.

Wonder if justnspace waits till he is at 5mph before running through the gears?

BEAR-AvHistory

There are two schools of thought here some of which will change if the TLX turbo is a good runner. Bench spec racing 5-60 vs racing 0-60.

ELIN summed it up pretty well.

I'd prefer if "launch control" stay within the realm of rockets and space ships. Whether I had it in my car or not, I would never use it. As someone said previously, I belong in the group that would rather "look fast than be fast."

fiatlux

Just how many times per year do you actually get to use launch control? For me, it's almost never. I never use it at the track (there's really no opportunity to do so unless you want to get kicked out), and I have no desire to use it on the street because 1) I'm not racing anyone and 2) it does nothing to change the perception of acceleration and speed other than smashing your skull into the back of the seat. It doesn't give you that feeling of having your eyeballs pushed towards the back of your head, which is what I find to be more fun, and that is better measured by 5-60 than 0-60.

fiatlux

I didn't think of the BMW. I thought of the WRX because I have plenty of experience with that car and explaining to fellow owners why they keep getting crushed by cars that should be much slower. But thanks for the reminder, because the X2 is just as illustrative of an example (if not moreso). 4.6s vs 6.4s is huge, and just as equally illustrates the point about how 0-60 times can be misleading as a measurement of the car's real-world performance.

BEAR-AvHistory

Just how many times a year do you run from 5 mph to 60 mph at WOT?

I don't use LC because I can beat it every time, non issue for me. As for 5-60 checked today & have boost at 8mph in first gear.

You keep saying real world performance, exactly what is real world about it? I have never done it as far as I know, have you & what were the circumstances? How many guys on this site roll to 5 the floor it & how often does it need to happen for it to be real world & not just so much spec racing for the First Loser.

On any given day there are thousands of quick street drag races from a dead stop, not counting all the ones at the Drag Strip that makes 0-60 very much real world.

Punching the throttle at 5mph has zero to do with real world performance. Nobody rolls out to 5mph then goes to WOT except a guy doing a magazine test.

People either drive away from a stop at a speed that is comfortable to them or at WOT from the stop.

The bottom line question is, What would be a logical reason for anyone to go 5mph then punch the throttle?

BTW C&D invented the 5-60 other magazines jump on board but hear are their typical banners.

Chevy Corvette: A Brief History in Zero-to-60-MPH Acceleration

We Test the 2020 Toyota Supra: Zero to 60 in 3.8 Seconds

Top 10 Quickest AWD Sports Cars From 0-60 MPH Ever ..

Aspark Owl Electric Hypercar Does 0-60 MPH in 1.6 Seconds

The Fastest New Cars Under $50,000 for 2021 | U.S. News ...

Could keep this going for pages but all these 5-60 publications don't really seam to give a s**t about it except as a single line in their road tests.