saturno_v

No accordingly to KBB and cars.com..check it out, same average depreciation.

Probably true...and the RX makes the bulk of Lexus sale (interestingly enough, Acura also seems to be more successful selling SUVs than sedans)
Still the perception is not there, Lexus is slightly behind Mercedes and BMW in terms of luxury image (it is superior for overall quality reputation), it is on par with Audi or maybe slightly higher.
It is definitely the strongest Japanese luxury brand.

KeithL

This is why they did the rename now, the NA market was the only market that knew the models names as they were. They wanted to get their names to align so as they launch overseas they appear to have more logic similar to the Germans. They knew the US market would be confused in the short term and might actually loose some sales due to the confusion, but they made a long term decision and were willing to suffer the short term pain.

evident

the infiniti M37 is leagues ahead of the RL, competitive with the Lexus GS, Merc E and 5 series, and the G37 is a great performance coupe/sedan, something that acura/honda can't / won't build.

saturno_v

They were already aligned with the Germans (ex Audi) and Lexus.....letter name indicating the vehicle model followed by the number indicating the engine displacement.

Stew4HD

Something tells me you have not been in a RLX. To say it is leagues ahead?

ATLPatrick

He probably hasn't been in the RLX, TLX , or even the M37 for that matter. It really bothers me when people like him make claims to one car being better than another if they haven't actually driven them. Car reviews are nice to read, but they don't tell the entire story and I myself disagree with them many times. If you are going to make claims like one being better than another, please don't base it off what you read on the Internet or in a magazine. Go out and drive the cars and see your yourself. Then I'll listen to the opinions.

Stew4HD

^ this

ScottLong

I agree. I think Lexus is behind both MB/BMW in terms of image, despite their three way race in sales. Lexus RX is their bread and butter car, but they also sell a lot of ES Sedans, a lot of new IS Sedans, and a decent amount of GS. Meanwhile Acura sells a lot of RDX/MDX but very little of anything else(TLX wil change that) They also used to sell a lot of flagship LS's, but the decline is mainly due to the overall decline of the 'flagship' market rather than the LS. A8,7 SERIES also seem to have suffered, with the S-CLASS being the only one left in that flagship market that's doing very good numbers.

I do find it impressive that Lexus have managed to beat the BMW 7 Series over the last 14 years in terms of LS Vs 7 sales. That could be due to the lower cost of the LS........although we are still talking about a 70,000+ MSRP car here, so it's still impressive. If someone was willing to pay for
a 77,000 dollar Lexus, that same someone will probably be able to find a way to pay for a 85,000 dollar BMW.....if he or she really wanted it.

ScottLong

Agree with everything but that. I think the LFA did break new grounds. It's the first car from a 'mainstream' Luxury Brand that threw itself against the Exotics.
It might not be as good as the Ferrarris or the Lambos(opinion) but it did break new ground in that something like this was even created to challenge in the first place. I am aware that the GTR 'challenges' and beats the exotics in terms of speed and performance, but the LFA was the first true overall package to do so.

JT4

I have owned 4 Infiniti's over the years, 2 cars and 2 SUV's. They were very reliable so I don't have anything negative to say about them. Even their service was great, no complaints.

IMO the cars were close in refinement to Acura, but with that being said I would still give the edge to Acura.

The SUV's on the other hand weren't anywhere near the refinement of my prior MDX's..IMO it was a big drop-off.

As far as the general public's perception. I feel that for whatever reason they place Infiniti on a higher level than Acura. I certainly don't.

Mr Hyde

Not sure what is meant by a higher pedestal, but if you are talking from a luxury car stand point, I would say they are pretty equivocal. From a perspective of sport sedans, FWD can't compete with RWD, so I will definitely give the edge to Infiniti there.


If the question is why isn't Acura on a higher pedestal than where it sits now, I think its a few main things;

1) No Halo Luxury sedan for 20 yrs since the Legend. The RL/RLX were never as loved, and were never meant to be on the level of the A8, S class, 7 series, LS, etc. Hyundai, and Kia are venturing into this area; why not Acura?
2) No Halo Performance vehicle (the NSX void has been going on for 10 years now)
3) No RWD platform for real perfomance variants (M, AMG, s/RS, etc). Its tough to be taken seriously in the previous 2 areas without a RWD platform, unless like Audi, your upper end cars are all AWD equipped as standard.

This is nothing that hasn't been said already, but until Acura makes strides to correct these issues, it will always be where it is at right now; competing in the middle.

Legend2TL

The NSX was the first to challenge the exotics, and did so 2.5 decades ago. Also inspired Gordon Murray for the McLaren F1 and got Luca to wake-up the Ferrari personnel.

saturno_v

What about Acura/Honda with the NSX, Nissan with the 300ZX or Toyota with the Supra??

Nexx

im still trying to understand the RWD fascination. i have my weekend RWD built TT'd 350z for fun and tracking but for my daily driver i would much rather have a FWD or AWD. i guarantee you that 95% of the consumers who drive RWD luxury cars dont know they drive one nor do they care.

Stew4HD

Well said and I agree. Also, FWD cars have been notorious for better snow/ice control vs. RWD.. so, like you said. Given that aspect, why would RWD cars be more popular or a better choice for the general public?

saturno_v

I'm the first one that say that under certain power threshold, FWD it's just fine, I do not see them as "inferior", again if you keep the engine output within limits.
There are some FWD cars much more fun to drive than some RWD cars.

I would never own a RWD as a daily driver where I live.

Still the RWD platform still carry a certain aura of prestige within the public (they are relatively rare), they can be more fun to drive on certain situations.

They can handle way more power than a FWD, and you can easily put larger engines on them with the added benefit of not altering much the weight distribution.....cramming a big V8 east-west on an engine bay can become difficult space wise and weight distribution goes into the crapper more easily...because of this they are the only choice for powerful luxurious cars.

You can cram a 5 liter V8 in the engine bay of a Lexus IS...you cannot in a TLX.

Audi can get away with a FWD architecture because 1) from a technical standpoint their engine is placed in a north-south position (and recently Audi has to push back the engine int heir new platform, introducing the complexity of a side shaft to send power to the front wheels) 2) their FWD sales are marginal, Audi "uniqueness" is their AWD system.

Quandry

That is the problem. The few that complain loudly and frequently about lack of RWD are the minority but their message seems get spread around. The drivers in climates with snow/ice just forget about RWD and go with FWD or AWD (and/or put on winter tires). If they were to complain about RWD in a top car they would be shut down and told to just get a AWD.

saturno_v

Car magazines, unfortunately, spread that message loud and clear too....for example I did drive extensively a 3 Series diesel in Europe and a competing Honda Accord (Euro style, our Acura TSX) also diesel and I did not find any difference in driving pleasure or sportiness....it's interesting that in Europe their Honda Accord is viewed as a competitor of the 3 Series, at least the more "mundane" trims (not talking about 335i or M3)

Here putting an Accord in the same bracket as a 3 Series would be a blasphemy.....different markets and perceptions...your run of the mill 3 Series is not a luxury car, actually often they are company cars, 5 Series and E Class are used as taxis....
For example, these cars come standards with cloth seats in Europe.

Tony Pac

It's a really nice discussion but I think we are over analyzing this small issue. Honestly, Acura and Infiniti both have their strengths and weakness. No one can deny one thing: Honda > Nissan.

Acura is struggling for the past few years to re-establish its name but still people associate Acura with performance, reliability and great re-sale value.

What's so good about Infiniti? they had one car which was their bread and butter - G37/Q50. Their reliability has always been inferior than Acuras.

again, sometimes it comes to personal choice and opinion and i respect that!

winstrolvtec

True, "they" (the mags and media outlets) place many cars on pedestals and most people simply follow, especially in NA. Lots of people don't know much about cars they use these sources to inform them but often to also make the selection. You often here people say about this car and that getting great reviews, ya but what do you think?

In most cases, the info is typically a single person's perspective and opinion and to make it worse, there is sometimes an incentive to make things sound better or worse when there is profit and selling ad space to consider. It all has to be taken into consideration, many don't.

As others have stated, friends and family who originate from EU and perhaps other parts of the world, may not maintain the position the mags and special media outlets here do, in my examples they simply view many of the luxury brands as different if they even see a luxury vs non luxury distinction in the first place or the way we see it.

I think they see it more in specifics not necessarily just in the brand or as much at least. Where we have it a bit backwards in comparison, many people simply see the brand nevermind how the product actually fares and what it could be shopped next to whether it is truly up to the distinction of "luxury" or so called tier standards that we place on the subject.

Many in other areas might just suggest it's simply cars vs cars or more along those lines. While here we have this notion of luxury cars and distinct luxury or luxury only brands and on top of that, it's tier this and tier that here too, but it's entirely made up and coined term to fit a specific agenda and may vary depending on world regions IMO. To be fair, we don't really see the extreme diversity in product lines that other areas may see. So when MB for example, only offers a certain spread of vehicles in one area, that are more equipped and higher priced over another area, where they come with 4 cyl and cloth interiors and compare more to Accord s(etc) instead, it changes the perspective but should it?

BEAR-AvHistory

Not that easy to find a $85K 7 series. My dealer has 7 in inventory cheapest is $87K next $89,500 the rest are in the mid upper $90's to $99,500.

BEAR-AvHistory

Front wheel drive vs rear wheel drive in the US. FWD = K-Car RED = Corvette.

saturno_v

When I shopped for the GS F-Sport, at the dealer there were no LS under $85K as far as I remember.....

weather

^^ I just noticed your signature, you have a 1973 Trans Am....Although I am not a classic muscle car fan, I have ALWAYS wanted a Trans Am!

Colin

I honestly prefer they compete here. There is more volume, some prestige, and a clientele made up of people are generally well grounded. I see nothing wrong with this strategy or in executing this strategy while talking about competing with BMW, Audi etc. It's only advertising.

Mr Hyde

I agree with you all in terms of practicality, but we are talking about executive sedans with prices approaching, and exceeding the six figure mark. There's not too much practicality to be found at that level, and in 2014, they are mostly AWD equipped in my area. Acura tried the sensible approach for the last few years, and it hasn't been working for them, so sometimes you o have to give them what they want, and not what they need.

When reviewed, and evaluated, people expect them to coddle the occupants in luxury, and to perform very well when pushed. In any kind of comparison, the one that will do better in snow, but is ho-hum when pushed otherwise is going to finish dead last, and that's not how you get people to remember your cars.

This is especially true for performance variants; M3, M5,C63, S63, RS5, S8. These cars are not only huge profit makers for the manufacturers; selling them, and having owners drive them around is practically free advertising as well. Lexus has just entered this arena, and we'll see how well it pays off for them.

Some low volume Halo cars like the LFA, NSX, etc are made, and sold at a loss; they have value for brand recognition.

Mr Hyde

I am with you to an extent, but I remember what Acura used to be. The NSX, Legend, Integra Type R.

They made nice cars that had real performance cred, and I'd like to see them get back to that. For the RLX to be their pinnacle makes me a little sad.

Hopefully the TLX is a big seller; if it does well, and jump starts things for Acura, perhaps the powers that be will give the engineers even greater reign.

BEAR-AvHistory

You don't see that here. The big dog in the big car arena is the MB S-Type. The local Lexus dealer has 11 or so LS's in stock all around $77K one at $79K

saturno_v

So basically strippers...if you can use that term on a $70k car...

BEAR-AvHistory

The performance cred died within the last few years of the 3G. The Type-S was too little two late & the initial batch 4G cars with the 5AT were very slow compared to the market.

The TLX is most likely the car that Acura needs right now. A car company needs to sell cars & the TLX will sell. Its now going to WOW many people but it will not offend any either.

As long as the car is attached to the Accord by perception or reality I don't see Honda making any high performance versions that take performance to a higher level than a few horsepower boost.

The RLX has tanked big time, sales last month were 187 cars. It will be interesting to watch the results in the marketplace of the hybrid performance version. Might be a foreteller of what could happen if they actually did decide to make a TLX AMG M.

Looks like Infiniti will have the first go at a hot rod hybrid which would still leave Acura in me-too mode again.

BEAR-AvHistory

There are only 2 big selling operation here that matter & they own all the dealerships. I expect they run analysis by store to store to see what price level will work to move cars without stepping on each others toes.

The LS has always been the low cost alternative to the MB-S from the day it was launched. With the right inventory patterns both stores can move a lot of cars by filling the gaps in the customers pricing desires.

The BMW store is heavy in 3/4/5/6 & M series. Not much in the 2 or 7 series. They have more $130K M6's in inventory than regular $90K 6 series.

Their Acura store has 15 cars in inventory covering most of the options. Priced from $30.9 to $44.7

saturno_v

Definitely the LS does not have the same cachet of the S Class...nor the 7 Series for that matter or the A8....

The 7 Series was the low cost S Class alternative when it came out in the 70s....


Amazing how the RLX bombed so hard...and even more amazing to think that anyone in Acura management could think otherwise...

Mr Hyde

I don't see a hybrid variant of the RLX reversing its sales. People think the TLX is uninspiring. If the TLX is the kind of cute girl next door, the RLX is her chubby cousin with the great personality.

I see the back of one parked near my work place everyday; reminds me of a Hyundai from years ago before they found their own styling; a nondescript blend of everyone else's cars. I can't really recall seeing any on the road with any regularity; I've seen more TLXs already. I really hope they don't use the RLXs failures as a gauge on what to do for the rest of the line up.

SSFTSX

you keep bringing kBB and cars.com. these have no relationship with reality.

BMW 3 series is bulk of bmw sales. bmw simply cant sale enough V8 like Lexus. infact lexus may sell 6 cylinder more than BMW.

saturno_v

I always sold and traded my cars (dealers or private party) according to KBB...always, any brand.

BEAR-AvHistory

I think the used car market pricing is very localized and can vary widely in any market. Most dealer trade offers are based on the current Manheim Auction prices for used cars because the dealer knows he can get rid of the car without getting burned.

Other outlets like CarMax can use their own customer inquiry stats to set local prices. I believe they also ship cars around within their network to suit demand.

When I got rid of the TL CarMax was good for $6K over the dealer trade offer. When I got rid of the 335is the car went to the dealer for +$3K over CarMax.

I have never made a private sale outside of the family.

SSFTSX

your is one of experience.
so called $50k coupe with 19inch sport package is cheaper to lease than TLX.

Take over my lease - 2013 Infiniti G37 Coupe - Sport+Nav+Premium Pkg

saturno_v

Not only mine but my geographical area....

Cheap lease rates are usually indication of very good resale value, not the other way around...

Kense

The last thing Acura needs is another SUV . They are most known for their MDX. They need a RWD performance line and not something like a type s with minimal hp and Torque gains. They need something that can compete with the S,M, AMG and F. Nobody things of the Luxury brands for their SUV's outside of soccer moms/dads.

KeithL

To some extent true, but they wanted the engine displacement out of the name and for whatever reason felt people had issues with the alpha designations determining a model. The EX, JX, FX, ets did not provide any indication of where in the line up the vehicle stood. With BMW/Audi etc the model names are more easily used to determine where in the lineup the model sits.