its fundamentally different. despite larger wheel base and rims/tires. it give same turning radius as TLX. M3 and 3XX has same wheel base.

Acura has nothing on the fully loaded 6mt G coupe. Rear active steering! Hits the corners like butter. The growl of the exhaust is one of the best for a car in it's price range.

But none of you care about that since you prefer automatic. I guess you can hit it to neutral and fake it. lol

It is not lack RWD but not creating a high end SUV like MB GL, Lexus LX, Infinit QX80 and RR.
I think Acura needs two SUVs at minimum One smaller than RDX and one larger MDX. and one another taller road view like Lexus GX.

Think in sedans the sales spread was about 560 cars last month. Acura has an advantage of a new car with some pent up demand but so did the 4G. Give it a few months before making any assumptions on the sales trend just like the Acura marketing guy is.

Not sure what you are saying about Hyundai/Kia but they are the #3 or 4 largest sellers of cars in the entire world with very steady sales growth.

Maybe you better tell that to the Acura production people who don't agree with you

The 128/135/1M, 228/235/M2, 320/328/335/M3 are all built on the same platform, different wheelbases, different body lengths but still the same platform.

I was really hoping that the Q50 would be on my shopping list, but the DAS scared the living daylight out of me, so after one test drive, I just crossed it off completely altogether.

If you look at the US sales figures, they completely support your statements here. The Q50 sold less than 3000 vehicles in Sept 2014, while the new TLX already sold close to 4000 in the same month. That is before the SH-AWD versions even came out.

Facts are facts and these numbers don't lie...

One thing that Infiniti has going for them, is the fact that they do sell in Europe, while Acura still has not entered the European market. Not being sold in Europe is a big image issue for Acura.

RLX is different than Accord platform. It is not simply wheel base length difference.

You still not getting the point. Acura has not offered newest hybrid tech in Acura. and neither is that many engine variations. I don't think Infiniti can recover unless they start free distributing of cars.

Hyundai/Kia 3 or 4 largest based on cheap cars made in India.

Honda is at 20. Hyundai brand value is at 40. kia at 74.,

Toyota leads automotive rankings in list of top 100 global brands | New and Used Car Reviews, Research & Automotive-Industry News & LeftLaneNews

I think it's because Toyota and Nissan both had RWD chassis in their JDM inventories (Crown and President respectively). Honda, which was a relative latecomer to the JDM car manufacturing scene, only had FWD to work with. So the truth is, that NONE of the three actually 'created' a new chassis for their flagship offerings.

However, Infiniti has crafted a good brand image despite only selling one true 'volume' car. It may be due to their usage of V6 and V8 vs. I4 and V6 for Acura, or the RWD factor. Of course SH-AWD was supposed to rectify this, but after 10+ years on the market, it has failed to do so (evidenced by the existence of this thread). I truly question it's value these days.

The irony to me is that a true 'Hondaphile' would have relished the fact that his 4 cylinder FWD car could provide 90% of the performance of a comparable 6 cylinder RWD car. An Integra GS-R vs. BMW 3 series, a 1G TSX vs. IS300 for example. Or, on a larger scale, a V6 NSX vs. the 8 cylinder exotics of it's day. In fact, Honda/Acura were celebrated for doing 'more with less' and using engineering to 'win the day'. We LOVED the fact that they were different! Now, it seems like everybody wants them to copy the crowd to 'compete' (<- the most overused word in the internet).

IMO, Acura's "problems" started in the years building up to the crash of 2008-09. Suddenly, in a world of rampant Hummer sales, doing more with less was out of fashion and more, more and still more became the goal. This was counter to Honda's core philosophy and they struggled to adapt. I believe this is when the errant 'tier 1' goals were hatched, and these thoughts were evidenced by the ZDX in 2010. Arguably the larger more expensive 4G TL with it's 'in your face' grill was also a product of this thinking (everybody had huge grills in 2009) because understated was "out".

IMO, Acura is in a strong position today, the TLX is off to a good start, the MMC for the ILX looks promising, and the RDX is due for MMC soon. The MDX continues to do well in its 2nd year. If we got a version of the HR-V and a coupe on the TLX chassis, we'd look pretty strong when the NSX finally arrives.

I do not think the general populace put Infiniti yet that much more above Acura in terms of brand image (I'm talking people that do not know anything about cars).
Car enthusiasts do and for a reason.
Infiniti is definitely going in the right direction to reach full tier 1 status recognition (from a purely technological product portfolio standpoint, they are basucally already there)
Infiniti is going aggressively to Europe where Acura has not even plans to do that.
Many posters has already mentioned the usual suspects...dedicated RWD platforms, V8, high end hybrids. With the Q50 Eau Rouge Infiniti will have a true M, AMG, RS, V and -F contender....where is Acura??
People that think Infiniti interiors are not on par with Acura needs to pull their heads out of their collective "you know what" and maybe stopping at an Infiniti dealer.....nowadays is often the other way around....the Infiniti M (now Q70) cabin has won an award and to this day is downright gorgeous and sumptuous and still to this day no Acura vehicle can even remotely match it...same for the FX SUV.
Acura interiors on the TLX took a step behind compared to the TL where the Q50 took a step forward compared to the G.
Some old G35 actually had some long term quality issues on some aspects of the interiors (paint peeling off on some trim pieces) but these have been rectified already with the G37.
The Infiniti low resale values are largely an old myth...maybe old models, the G and the M sel well in the used market....G37S used (especially the coupe) sell like hotcakes.

No, the Maxima interiors are not equal to the G....there is resemblance in some design elements (for example the center console), but just briefly touching the plastics you realize is very different.


DAS is the future of steering....5 years from now it will be the norm for luxury cars.....if you hope to appreciate it and being blown away after one hour of test drive that is where the problem is....it takes time to get used to it and after one month of ownership I can tell you that it is very very nice.

Only few early production Q50 had some issues, not the newer ones.

Honestly forget Europe and Infiniti! I just came back from Germany, Switzerland and France, In my entire 2 weeks trip I saw one Infiniti FX.

My brother lives in Germany and he is a car maniac, I asked him about Infiniti, Lexus and Acura and their market. His answer was the following:

Lexus is an okay car...but too expensive. I would rather buy a German car for that price.
Acura - he had no clue...he knew it's a division of Honda.
Infiniti - he was like: Oh I know that car it's only offered at car rentals due to Q50 Hydride.

There is one deanship of Infiniti in Frankfurt and it's empty.

I currently own a 550 BMW and a new GS350 and have owned Acuras and Infiniti's, and I don't agree with you other than perceived status. Our GS drives better than the BMW. I also had no more quality issues with the Infiniti's than the Acuras.

so coupe has higher resale value than rest of G37. this same thing is even worse than Ford Fusion Titanium performance.


2012 G37 Journey coupe asking $25k with only 10k miles. Pay attention this one is with 18 inch rims. No dealer will sell 10k mile TSX for this price when its loaded with 18inch rims.
Used 2012 Infiniti G37 Journey (A7) For Sale in Colma CA | Stock: PCM424752 | San Francisco Bay Area
2012 Infiniti G37 Journey (A7)

Journey is the basic G37...a stripper....not a G37 Sport.

it has navigation and 18inch rims. very comparable to TSX 4cylinder which lacks 18inch rims.

infact the rare Q50 AWD asking price is $31k. this thing will quickly drop to 20k.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...82028068&Log=0

So what is your point?? A 4 Cyl TSX has a better used market?? I need to see several example, not one.

A TSX is good semi-luxurious economical used car...reliable and good on gas, I have no problem believeing it sells well however I do not believe for a minute is more desirable than a G37.

The G37 was praised all around.

Don't tell me quality issues have been fixed for the G37, I've driven a number of them and ever single one had issues with rattles and interior parts fading. And yes the Maxima interior is basically identical! And these are only 2 and 3 year old cars! Here have a look at their forum, apparently its a common issues with the, you guesses it, G37!

Infiniti quality still lacking? - MyG37

And as far as the DAS, no I've driven the cars extensively, my friend owns one and he hates it! If you honestly think thats a half way decent steering system then you can't even call yourself a car enthusiast. Its awful. The most unnatural artificial, twitchy feeling steering I've ever felt!
Its so bad actually that Infiniti is removing it from the Q50 for 2016!
See
Infiniti Q50S to Get G37-Derived Steering System for 2016 ? News ? Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog

I only point out that so called G37 drops faster than TSX. TSX only has 5speed Auto and 3500lbs weight with premium fuel. not very efficient combination for used car market. if you think 4cylinder is desirable.

it is infiniti that always fall faster even the AWD version.

I saw only a G35 with trashed interiors (the famous feeling off paint on metal trims)

I did own a used G37 personally for few months (it was almost 4 years old), no issue as other G37s I know...

I do not believe the interiors in quality are any worse than Acura, you can get some bad apples and some areas that need some work (rattles) but I put them on the same level in terms of quality.


No the Maxima has not the same interior quality...do yourself a favor and visit a Nissan dealer, sit on a Maxima and then sit immediately after on a G37, plastic is way different....there could be some switchgear commonality, acceptable considering the Maxima is not exactly a cheap car and it is the Nissan flagship. The Maxima was considered more or less a competitor to the TL....

DAS is fine....yes it lacks in feeling but it gives you something back.....again, it will be the norm in 5 years time, some may implement it better (give Infiniti the credit for introducing it first).....as electric power steering there is no way back.

Infiniti is not dumping the DAS it's simply adding a choice for the Q50S owners...get the traditional rack and pinion or DAS.

No it doesn't...check on KBB and cars.com...2 specimen of the same year, same mileage, they drop at the same rate, keeping on average the same price gap in percentage compared to their MSRP.

I have sat in both cars, I personally didn't see much of a difference. I never drove the Maxima though, only sat in one. I know many consider it a competitor to the TL, front wheel drive V6 and all, but still with a CVT that's a comparo it will lose.
Also I do give them credit for trying something new. They screwed it up, but at least they tried. Hopefully in the future they will be able to better tune the system.

I will always find G37 cheaper than TSX for same mileage and year. and TSX will not have 18inch rim upgrade. they are not dropping at same rate at all.

G37.has push button start/Bi HID. which TSX lacks. Acura is all about quality. so it give less electronics.

2013 asking $25k.
Cars for Sale: 2013 Infiniti G37 Sedan in Oakland, CA 94611: Sedan Details - 382648887 - AutoTrader.com

Maybe you can find it cheaper in your neck of the wood (lucky you).
Depreciation rate, based on averages (not specific cherry picked ads) seems to be about the same, again, according to KBB and Cars.com
However you will find common, as you go up in price, class and complexity, that cars tend to depreciate more in percentage......in this case the difference in price and class between the two is relatively small so depreciation is somewhat similar....compare the depreciation rate between a Toyota Camry and a Mercedes S Class....
Around here, there is no way a TSX is more desirable than a G37 from an enthusiast perspective....the latter being RWD and much more powerful....ask any car crazy kid with sub 20K to blow on an used sport sedan/coupe....would you rather have a TSX or a G37??

I think there is some history here that we need to consider to fully understand the brand perception of Infiniti vs. Acura cars.

1. Acura has historically offered more entry-level cars than Infiniti. They have also kept them in production longer. Think Acura Integra and the RSX. Infiniti did introduce the G20 which was priced in the low $20K range but moved away from it pretty quickly offering an upgrade with the G35/7 shortly after. The "average" Acura on the road during the past ~ 20 years presented a lot of non-luxury vehicles whereas even the cheapest Infiniti still made it to the value-luxury segment. When people think of Acura, they will often reference in their mind these more affordable cars Acura used to offer which has a direct impact on overall brand perception.

2. High end luxury models: both Acura and Infiniti haven't done so well in this category. However, Infiniti debuted the Q45 in the early 90's which was a "runner-up" competitor to the German cars namely the E class and 5-series. The Acura Legend was only offered in a V6 and was a FWD. I also recall in 1995 when the Acura RL first came out, it was advertised as cheaper alternative to the Lexus and Infiniti cars. In a way, Acura has always been aiming at the value segment even with its highest end car. (NSX aside)

With all this said, my personal view is that a comparably equipped Acura is pretty head-to head with an Infiniti. For example an Acura RL competes pretty directly with the Infiniti M35. But there isn't an RL that competes with the M45 with V8 engine. Neither the RL or M45 would compete well with the LS Lexus models and maybe not even the GS450 series. Ultimately, there are 3 Japanese luxury makers and there may not be enough room in the marketplace for all to be successful competing in the high-end category. IMO, its probably a smart move for Acura to focus primarily on the value segments, while maintaining a handful of top of the line models to slowly push the brand value upward. Brand aside, they are really well made cars. As a 2.4 TLX owner, I was looking primarily for a combination of luxury features, value, quality, and brand as well. This is something I was able to find in an Acura that was a just a bit harder to find with Infiniti...

Some of you may find this article very interesting

Cadillac's de Nysschen won't budge on raised pricing - Autoblog


The new Cadillac boss Johan de Nysschen (ex Audi and es Infiniti) does not sugarcoat it.

"Even with a consistent range of fully competitive products, it will take 10-15 years before Cadillac will be regarded at the same level as the Germans in the minds of the American consumers".

I totally agree with this assessment....for example a 3 Series fighter will never get to the top af the sales charts (and profits) within one generation even if it is an actual superior product....the automotive market (especially the luxury segment) is very conservative, people do not change perception quickly or easily.

Even Audi has not reached that pinnacle in people's imagination as BMW and Mercedes despite having an impressive and very articulated product range......

De Nysschen seems hell bent at even losing customers in the short term not giving up on prices (and actually increasing them) if he has to, as long as GM back him up, in order to get out of the "value equation", the "as good as the XYZ model at lower price" trap the Japanese brands seems to often find themselves into (Lexus a bit less so).

It is a very very slow road to heaven. Jaguar management is rumored to have a similar long term view. Build consistently excellent products and resisting to the discount temptation to boost volumes.


So maybe Acura was smart after all at giving up any Tier 1 aspiration?? Your thoughts??

Good find, and good read. I agree with what he said. For example BMW has lost a lot of feel, and in my opinion messed up the current 3 series. I didn't like it at all when I drove it. The current 3rd gen IS350 F sport is getting much better reviews than the 3. But just because the current IS is a better car than the current 3, the bmw still has the history to back it up. And I can't see them not fixing it with the next generation, which should put it back on top.

In the car world, it can be very hard to change people's perceptions. And I think Acura is on a good track with the TLX, let's just all hope they continue to produce more exciting models across the board. So anyway this is a good find and thanks for sharing!

i owned numerous TLs and then a M37S, and I think the there are a few differences, first and foremost, Infiniti marked themselves as a brand with an image they tried to project. I think RWD does give them additional credibility. I did find my M37S to be very luxurious, but I could tell where some of the cost cutting was, but then I see the same in the TLX compared to my 09 AWD TL. Infiniti has some decent styling, sure some don't like the sharkish look, but compared to Acura's more bland then shield/beak Infiniti did not offend nearly as many potential customers. Infiniti's stling has mire curves that give it a more appealing look to more people. Also the G sedan made that brand, it the G35/G37 sold extremely well during its previous 7 year life cycle even though the body style had not changed much. Sure the Q50 stumbled and the model renaming did not help, but they have a clear strategy, Q30 and then Q20, and eventually a high end model Q80. If they would have updated the head unit in the 15 Q70 I would be back in a Q70 in a flash, especially since the pricing is basically lower this year because they made the Premium package a no cost option.

What is worse is that even the "specialized press" I believe are cutting the German brands (especially BMW) much more slack than other manufacturers.

I cannot believe that I still read praise for the 3 Series fit and finish....sit in one...it is borderline mediocre...and I'm talking about the fundamental components like the dash and side panels plastic not to mention their dated interior styling.

Very true. I've owned a few BMW's and it's sad to me to see how far they have fallen. I will say this, aside from the new Mercedes C class, all 3 Japanese luxury brand offer better products in my opinion than the Germans, for their entry sport luxury anyway. I mean BMW charges $32k for a base 320i, awful unsettled chassis, and an underpowered engine, numb steering, and not even a USB or power seats inside! They call this quality?!? It's shocking to me! Fit and finish is bad for a BMW, and like you said the interior is dated. I would take Lexus Acura or Infiniti over the current BMW lineup in a heartbeat.

Absolutely agree...Infiniti has made mistakes in it strategy for sure.
First of all they still refuse (as Lexus) to build hyper luxurious/powerful cars and version which they consider low volume so, in theory, not profitable.....in reality this is what make a luxury brand...the hard to reach, expensive models... Cadillac, for example, is finally putting together an S Class fighter...

The renaming of the model range was frankly stupid...they call it a "tribute" to the first Infiniti, the Q.....hello, anybody is home at Infiniti?? Who the hell remember the first Infiniti Q, especially outside of North America?? It's not like it was such a memorable car like the Lexus LS was.
The G name was starting to have "street creed" as the FX and EX SUVs which was rare but highly appreciated in Europe.

Another issue, in common with the other 2 Japanese luxury brand, is their stubbornness in not developing FI engines....the VQ V6 is a gem of a motor but it is in its last leg in its current form....

I guess I shouldn't have been so hard on the Q50 steering system, after all like I said I don't like BMW's f30 steering either, and the Q50 is better than that! I know the Q50 is much higher quality than the g37, and it is a good looking car, much better in my eyes than the G. I do agree the VQ is one awesome engine. I will be very excited to see the new Q80, and lower Q20 and Q30 whenever they release them. If they are able to do a good job on those cars as well, and put Eau Rouge into production it would likely change my view on Infiniti as a brand. And I will say aside from the work the DAS needs, the Q50 is DEFINITELY a step in the right direction for them!

I know Lexus is bringing their first turbo engine into production for 2015 and the NX, and their are rumors of Acura using some of Honda's new line of turbo earth dreams engines in years to come. But I haven't heard anything of an FI Infiniti engine. Am I missing something? Or have they no plans to FI anything in the near future?

Infiniti sells a small 4 banger Mercedes derived gasoline turbocharged engine in Europe on the entry level Q50 as well as a 4 cylinder diesel (made by Mercedes also).
I have no idea about Lexus.

Oh, I didnt realize they already used them, thanks! Now they really should bring them over here, along with some high power FI engines!

Acura is a better brand than Infiniti and the sales number support that notion. Infiniti May have more performance credibility but with the release of the NSX it will increase Acura's performance Image. The bottom line is that Acura is just better in an overall package.

But didn't Lexus build the ultra expensive LFA? For no reason other than to show that they can?

The thing is, I don't think Lexus really worry about building the 'hyper powerful' cars because their prestige and sales have not suffered due to lack of it. They got a competitor against the Germans in almost every area.

IS-3/A4
RX-X3/Q3
NX-X1/GLK
GS-E/6/5
LS-7/AUDI A8
RC 350-4 SERIES
RCF-M4/C63
Halo Car-LFA

I honestly think this is about as high up as Lexus can go(viewed as a worthy competitor against Audi/Bmw/MB. For Lexus to be viewed in a even better light by the car buying public. Any 'higher' and the Lexus Brand will surpass the Germans. That's just not going to happen.

The 'car forums' is overall loving the new direction Lexus have taken and so are the younger buyers.......but at the same time, there is a large group of Lexus buyers that care only about luxury and quiet. Refinement and conservative wealth looks. Yes, Lexus is getting a lot of 'younger buyers' who likes cutting edge and flash, but they are also losing the people who loves the Lexus of old. At the end of all this? Lexus will be where they have always been, ........fighting against the Germans for the luxury crown.

Some years Lexus might be viewed as 'slightly better'. Other years they will be viewed as 'not quite as good but still in the same tier'.......they are never going to fall to Volvo/Acura/Infiniti level and they will never rise to Porsche level.

People also have short memories(at least on car forums). This 'Big three' German slang didn't even exist 7 years ago. Back in 2007, the LS was selling 33,000+ Units and the
Audi A8 was viewed as a inferior joke. Audi in America is the kids who got maybe 5 straight A reportcards. Lexus/MB have gotten 100 straight A report cards. Let's see where Audi is in 10 years.

Acura is a better Brand than Infiniti overall. The G Series was better than any Acura Series since maybe the Integra days though.

I agree that Lexus is the most prestigious of the Japanese brand but their model range depth and options are not anywhere close to the Germans....and the LFA is a very expensive car yes, but it has been criticized for not really being that "special" overall for its price tag...it did not break any new ground.

it is cheaper than Acura for same mileage and model. Infiniti always lose value faster than Acura. compare MDX with FX37. even not so success full RLX better than Q70. despite RLX on 5 year old 6speed transmission and RLX don't have same features like around view monitor/backup collision intervention/heated steering wheel/ sport package.

Lexus have two very successful body on frame SUVs GX/LX. they sell more V8 vehicles than MB/BMW.
in addition to NX/RX and all the hybrid models.