copmagnet82

I must say Acura was very close with creating a performance sedan for enthusiasts, but in my opinion they messed up a little bit, which hopefully they will fix within the next 2 years, as eventually I will be forced to replace my 6MT SH-AWD TL.

First of all I am highly disappointed with the absence of the manual transmission; it's actually quite depressing. I really enjoy driving a manual even though every single day I'm stuck in Chicago traffic. Honda has a special place in my heart and I would hate to leave the brand because of the lack of MT or a proper engine/transmission combo. I also don't understand, why they would not offer V6 SH-AWD with DCT. Maybe, eventually, if Acura did not release a MT TLX, or I would not be able to find a new/newer MT transmission car from BMW or Audi, I would switch to a DCT, but it's beyond me why the more powerful engine and superior drivetrain get a transmission that is simply not up to par, when compared to a DCT. Does anyone feel the same way?

...and lastly, maybe we should start a petition for those interested in a V6 SH-AWD with MT or DCT? It probably wouldn’t change much, but you never know.

Rocketsfan

Apparently the 8sp DCT wasn't designed to work with AWD according to Acura. They've also said that hardly anybody bought the MT. I believe they stated the take rate was something like 2%, so there weren't enough buyers of the MT to justify its production.

flunder

I am with you on the MT. Since I have driven turbo through out my life...I am sick and tire of it, I do not want turbo any more...combined with the strangely lack of MT+AWD on the market, I came to Acura. Hopefully I will not be driven away for that same exact reason... Never-the-less, I will skip on the DCT as it is video game like to me...

Gen4MDX

Get over it, tired of hearing all the whining of no MT. You guys account for about 2-3% of previous MT Acura sales. They made a wise decision TO discontinue it AS IT ONLY ACCOUNTS FOR 2-3% of sales? This is a good business decision, nothing personal, strictly business.

If you are unhappy with this decision, take your business elsewhere and quit whining

CollinR4

I drive from Wicker Park to Rosemont every day, you are a sick and twisted individual to enjoy anything like that but good for you.

It was mentioned that the DCT isn't capable of handling the torque of the V6 as of right now nor can it be paired with the SH-AWD.

Thuneau

I understand that Acura only made 1 in 50 TL with MT. I had to search far to find mine and actually bought it from another state. My local dealer had one on the lot in the last 3 years. I bet more people would buy MT if it was available for a test drive at any time.

winstrolvtec

I agree, it's really frustrating and is depressing. They would have nearly a guaranteed sale on my end in due time even on this version as it is just with a 6MT instead. Pretty confident I could line up one or two additional buyers as well without effort maybe more if the word got out or something.

Feel like I will be forced to 6MT+AWD combos elsewhere, if they will even stick around. I know people will say all these people should quit complaining but that just goes to show the interest, if not the demand. A 4G 6MT and even 3G 6MT are not so easily replaced by another make. It's not like going S4 to 335 xi, there are more substantial differences that TL and Acura buyers are accustomed to. It's not like we are the people who complain about everything Acura but just don't go away or move on when others make it totally different and what they want, we like everything, just want them to offer what they always have, a large part of what made an Acura, an Acura. Just because may don't drive a manual, it doesn't change that.

Strangely, brands (including Acura) are harping over the low percentages but clearly all I keep hearing is that people would like to see it including many of the initial reviews. Don't know if that actually translates to sales or not but think they have the interest and the "room" since it's replacing two MT models in the TL and TSX, as well as the fact that the model should be a better seller in general.

I remember the amount of 6MT's on the ground in late 09 early 10', there was a good number with choices around, a few at almost each dealer, many times sitting on the lots and so they sold them, although many dealers complained about getting them despite the dealers not ordering them, don't know why. Not like they are still there. Of the left over TL's, don't think there is even 2% on the ground, can't find one even. Demand is still higher than that IMO.

Very different when they released the MMC, and I know because I studied the trends and the numbers as a devoted manual driver. For whatever reason there were almost none in comparison, as if they started building even less than half of what they did before. Could have been a quarter. Many people couldn't go as far as getting a test drive or locating the color combo, and add the lack of advance package and addition of the 6AT and better fuel economy and so many settled on an auto or went elsewhere.

Once the 6AT came out there was a consolidation effort, demand was never great but the final outcome is also predicated on the fact that they were not building as many IMO. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, they are controlling both the supply and the demand so the numbers are skewed if you ask me. Ironically, that's when they seemed to tank to about 2%, same time they started building what seemed like 2%.

Think this TLX would be an even better model to highlight their 6MT and SH-AWD on, at least a Type S for sure, if not both. Sort of an odd choice in a large exterior mid size in the 4G but it is still very impressive despite that and seemed a smaller lighter package was more appropriate especially a coupe. Well, here that package is, sedan anyway.

It has really bothered me enough to also want to start a petition but I thought people might think I was crazy but now I'm second guessing that. Hands down I'm in for a petition, show of hands?

copmagnet82

Even though there may only be 2-3% of us we are there and most of us are loyal Honda/Acura customers. I personally value loyalty a lot, although everyone is different. Also, it's not about being unhappy, it's more that they have a great looking car and they could really attract more customers by offering MT, who we will get hooked on Honda/Acura and will remain customers for life. You'd be surprised how many people who were in my car changed their opinion of Honda/Acura as far as building cars that are a blast to drive.

...just a little FYI, I am one of the 2-3% of people, who don't matter, who in the past few years bought those cars:

1998 Civic
2002 RSX-S
2002 CRV
2003 RSX-S
2005 S2000
2006 Civic Si
2006 Accord
2010 TL SH-AWD 6MT
2010 MDX
2014 CRV

...you're right, Honda wouldn't care if I, and many others who can put together a similar list of cars, took their business elsewhere

copmagnet82

I should've been more precise... what I meant was, if they spent a few years designing, a what seems to be, a fantastic car, they should've not cut corners and designed a DCT that would handle the torque and work with SH-AWD. There are plenty of cars that use DCT and make twice the power and torque of the TLX. If there is a will, there is a way .

copmagnet82

Agree 100%. I had to wait for 3 months before I was able to finally pick mine up. And there was no dealing. The price was what it was. The salesman told me that they would not deal on the 6MT, because that car had a lot of value to particular people and he would sell it within a few days no matter what, so it was my call. With that being said, there is demand for MT, but most people don't want to wait and usually settle for the 2nd best, whatever it may be.

copmagnet82

one more thing...

I do agree with you, that it was strictly a business decision, but I will bet you there are engineers at Honda/Acura, who wanted this car built in MT, but there are too many people with MBA's after their names, who only care about the bottom number, who killed that dream. It's the same kind of people, who decided that investing more money in Honda F1 Team in 2009 would be a waste of money, but in the end, it was the car that won the championship and Honda got "0" credit for it. It's also the same kind of people, who killed the HSC concept and Honda instead of being a leader in automotive development, became a follower. This is also partially a reason why Acura doesn't get the respect it should. A great example would be the RLX, which gets a-okay reviews. Had they offered FWD w/P-AWS and SH-AWD, or just good ol' SH-AWD, as opposed to the fake SH-SH-AWD, which is not even offered, the reviews would be a lot better, because the car would handle like nothing else in it's class. Good thing those people were not at Honda, when they were working on the NSX and S2000 ...and hopefully they will soon be replaced by people, who have a similar vision for the company as Soichiro Honda, because the people, who are there now seem to care less if people are driving dishwashers on wheels, as long as they are making money. It's not always about the bottom number ...or at least it shouldn't be in my opinion.

...just some food for thought

Colin

You would lose that bet. In the end, it's inevitable a few more might be sold since they would have to inventory more but what dealership wants to inventory a car for three years before it sells? So yes, you would succeed in increasing the supply, but it won't increase the demand.

ho says they cut corners? Are you going to design one transmission to handle everything from a Fit to an NSX? In many respects, doing so would be cutting corners and very wasteful. The truth is in the last two or three years Honda has introduced four separate DCT's. One for motorcycles, one for Fit class vehicles to be coupled with an electric motor, one for 4 cylinder models (the one with a torque converter), and one for the RLX and NSX to be coupled with an electric motor.

So suggesting that they are lazy or "cutting corners" just because they're not making the exact combination you want to buy is something of an exaggeration. Also, just to be clear, I'm speaking as someone who has never bought a car with an automatic transmission. I've driven manual transmissions only since 1980.

It's only a suggestion but I recommend that you cherish these days where manuals are still available on some models and brands because they won't be around much longer.

Colin

^^ Reading what I wrote, I think it sounds a little more "preachy" than I intended. It's just that, as a sales consultant and manual transmission enthusiast, I see both sides of the argument. And in the end, there is no "right" answer. Except perhaps if they manufacture is able to continue with manual transmissions but at a high price because of the limited volume. Unfortunately, this probably doesn't describe Acura beyond a certain point.

copmagnet82

I know, and it is very depressing. I essentially refuse to get anything else, but a manual for myself and always look for MT cars, but it seems like it's inevitable that soon MT will be non-existent ... at least in US, because in Europe majority of cars are still MT.

Colin

I see you have a 2005 Seabring Silver. I had exactly the same car. We also had a 2000 in Silverstone Metallic, a 2001 in Spa Yellow, and a 2004 in Suzuka Blue between my wife and I.

I wife and I were talking about this while I was writing my earlier post. It seems clear that in the ultra high-end, DCT's are going to take over. Honda continues to manufacture manual transmission Fits and Civics but even here, the numbers are dwindling. But, in the lower-priced demographics, manual transmissions appear to still be viable.

It's the middle ground where they are vulnerable, between $30,000 and $50,000 most people want automatics, it's seen as the "luxury" choice. It will probably be up to someone like BMW who can (apparently) stop the production line to build a one of a kind vehicle to continue with manual transmissions. Of course, this type of production flexibility adds cost and such a vehicle would have to be special ordered. Also, it's unlikely there would be one available for you to test drive before you ordered it. Same problem, different manufacturer

razingkane93

I've been driving since 1976 and every car I have owned was a MT. By the end of the month I'll have a V6 Advance and I'll be more than happy to let the car take over the shifting duties. There comes a point in your life where certain things are not as important as they used to be and for me a MT is one of them.

madrussian190

If they brought this car to Europe, you bet your ass it will have a manual option... But as a NA only car, so far, no point...

winstrolvtec

I think a big part of the problem is the dealers don't want them on the lots, we have heard some hesitation by some of our dealer members here and that's all I kept hearing when shopping and pricing the 2010. At the same time, we hear that you can't sell what you don't have, so it's clearly a complicated issue on a few levels. However, I doubt any Acura MT has ever sat on a lot for 3 years, think that read the dealer had only one in stock in 3 years and you just can't sell any like that, demand or no demand.

Know the strict sale demand for an MT is low but something tells me they are only counting the ones who would take nothing else or actually got one. In this thread alone we have had several examples of some who may have went 6MT or can go either way, that could be sold one especially if they were on the lot and/or available in general.

FWIW, there are some 700+ TL's left over and I have yet to locate a single MT. If 2% "demand" were correct then we should still see about 30 manual units on the ground. There are none, not new anyway. I would assume the demand is at least twice as strong and with actual inventory and more dealer support we could see around 4-5% actually reflected in the sales and if sales increase over the combined TSX and TLX in general, 7% is not a stretch. Think that is a normal manual target for most anyway.

Although it's not exactly like a few years ago, most manuals would take a small hit in fuel economy to remain as competitive or less when compared to the modern AT, as we see in some brands. Another reason for the demise but at the same time I'm sure the mpg testing doesn't take into account neutral rolls and driver input and selection as it relates to fuel economy. So if the driver were to try to match the mpg as the auto they probably could but it would also suffer more during spirited driving. Small consolation IMO.

As far as performance, there are cases both for and against and ones in the middle as well but the general trend is a small nod to modern AT for mpg and performance. Would be leveled off with 7MT applications IMO but that's another story.

However, in Acura's case particularly with the TLX and some premature testing, they are typically conservative in their AT approach (maybe more fuel economy geared and launch safe) and with manual and AWD specifically tending to overachieve in performance stats due to traction and launching ability, don't see why a TLX MT wouldn't be at least every bit of the car the AT is, if not more.

As for the demand and numbers, I find it hard to believe that if they started making 2 MT's for every 50 TL's for example, that they wouldn't sell them. That somehow they are going to rot away on dealer lots for years and years. Not happening. Even at 3 out of 50, it will take some additional time to sell them all but they will go.

Honestly, I'm shocked that there are no leftover 4G manuals. Even more depressing now and going off of what Acura insists as well as many dealers, even I didn't expect that. For sure, there had to be a few sitting around, nope. We simply don't see manuals piling up on most dealer lots.

Understandably, it's not something you want to over produce either and even if they offer it, it will have reduced color combos and will come in one trim which is always going to upset someone no matter what. Even worse nightmare for dealers, it's a car the buyer comes looking for and not a car they can sell to any buyer but with today's digital age and being able to locate cars online and view dealer inventory, not sure that's a bad thing.

a77

Just back from France I noticed the dominance of manuals there. I counted 15 cars parked on the street till I came to an auto (a BMW). This was in snarled up Paris of all places. 90+% of the cars I have had have been manuals, well 21 out of 24. Both cars I rented in Europe were - a Citroen and an Opel. Neither even close to as good as the TSX's...shame.

Shiratori1

Extremely wishful thinking..........

Shiratori1

Gotta love the armchair experts. They truly believe they have all of the answers and are the smartest in the room......

blacktsxwagon

I am happy to trade the manual option for a 31K starting price. There is no way the car would have been as good of a value if they had to engineer/build the manual as well.

docboy

AZ is an internet forum. People will whine and bitch or praise and bow to things at will. It's up to Acura (or whatever company) if they want to listen or not to their "fans."

Don't worry. At this rate and given Acura's abysmal sedan sales in recent years, people already ARE taking their business elsewhere.

copmagnet82

..."the ultimate driving machine"

I do agree with what you are saying, but I do not agree with the fact that all this is happening.

People are just getting lazy and everything these days is build and designed to be idiot proof... "how am I supposed to drive a manual, when there are 3 pedals and I have only 2 feet?"

We make the cars more advanced, but at the same time they are being "dumbed down" for people. No wonder most people on the road can't actually drive. In Chicago, whenever we get 2 drops of rain the city gets paralyzed. Winter is even worse. Those are the effects of "advancing".

copmagnet82

...sort of like building a MB CLA for under $30k for people who really can't afford a MB

MT's are already there, it's just a matter of adapting the chassis to accept a MT.

copmagnet82

I hate to say that, but this is true...

Ever since Takanobu Ito took over at Honda, things started to go downhill, especially when it comes to building performance oriented vehicles.

winstrolvtec

I would gladly concede this point if we knew it to be 100% true. It's my understanding that on a per unit basis the 6MT would be cheaper to produce, not necessarily design and engineer, and is also more profitable, again per unit. They have a great 6MT already in house that accommodates the new J serie variants as well as SH-AWD.

On the other hand, they have had to build ground up a new DCT which is only small engine capable but will get lots of use within Acura and Honda eventually but have also had to outsource their 9AT which I would imagine has raised costs and is more on the uncommon side for Honda, usually they build their own for better or worse.

I really don't think the car is any cheaper because they ditched the 6MT up until this point, cheaper cars tend to have them over more expensive ones. I would imagine the downsizing, struts, hydraulic SH, and a few other areas allowed this and/or freed up some resources to improve elsewhere instead and more importantly, since it's replacing two models (which trims a lot of fat) and the fact that it's built here, as opposed to the TSX coming form overseas, and that they really do need this model to sell even if it's less profitable per unit, are all responsible for the sticker over the lack of a manual option.

If it does play a role, IMO it's the least impactful one and honestly don't think it would add but a few hundred dollars to each model worst case, even if it is that significant.

pdpgps

My thoughts on the 9-speed transmission after 4 days of ownership. Super smooth but paddle shifting down (for engine braking) could be better. Because there are so many gears, you almost have to shift from 9 to 5-6 just to get the engine to start slowing the car. This is pretty frustrating when you need a quick shift, and the shifts seem to lag a little bit.

kurtatx

They people that cry about the manual are also the first to criticize Acura's sales numbers. Go figure.

kurtatx

Wake up. The TLX appears, by all accounts, to be a winner, despite what you "fans" think.

rickd

What IDS mode were you in? When I test drove the V6 it was mostly in Sport+ mode and the engine braking was perfect, because it held the gears. Does the double-kick-down shift help get through the gears quicker or does that only work in Sport+?

pdpgps

You can double shift in any mode, but my issue occurs it in econ, normal, sport, and sport +. Shifting one gear down doesn't do a whole lot at highway speeds because it doesn't downshift that much. From cruising speed in 9th gear, I almost have to drop it down to 5 or 6th gear to achieve the same effect I did on my ILX with 7 speeds. What's alarming (or normal) is that when I drop from 9th to 8th, there's a slight lag and the gear drops down revving the RPMs up a bit, but then car seems to still push forward instead of slow down. To down shift 4 gears to have a great enough impact engine braking is a lot of gears.

4WDrift

OD is anything above 4th on the DCT8 / 5th on the AT9, hence more shifting to get down to engine braking levels.

rickd

Thanks for the info! I will see how much this bothers me when mine comes in.

copmagnet82

I test drove the 4 cylinder and the V6. I agree with your comments 100%.

The DCT is great, but it feels very artificial to me, nevertheless excellent and extremely responsive... to bad the engine has no power . The 9-speed is painfully slow. I honestly had to think when to shift and hope the transmission will do what I want at the right time; defeats the purpose of having fun when driving. Plus I can honestly shift smoother in a manual than this 9-speed .

So about two weeks ago after test driving the TLX, I e-mailed Acura with feedback and a question about the manual transmission in the future. They responded that the feedback will be forwarded to the marketing and engineering teams. Maybe those who would want this car in a manual should do the same and maybe if they get enough people asking for it, they will build a few manuals for true driving enthusiasts.

copmagnet82

Your statement is not something that you can back up with solid, measurable data; it's just your opinion, which you are entitled to.

copmagnet82

It is a winner... for all of the "point-A-to-point-B" kinda people. <--- captain sarcasm checking in

Just an observation; people who would like to have this car in a manual are not discourteous, for a lack of a better term , towards people, who drive automatics and don't care about the manuals. To me, some of the statements made here are somewhat rude/immature. Those, who posted in this thread and enjoy driving manuals simply state that, without insinuating anything bad towards those, who don't care about the manuals. I don't think any of us, "manual fans", said it's a bad car, because it didn't come with a manual. I actually like the car a lot and would pick it up today if they offered it with MT. I think, we are more or less expressing our disappointment with the fact that the manual was dropped, and we would like to see it back. That is it.