Because its not Consumers Reports. MT, C&D & R&T have a different focus. Its performance first amenities second. That why some here are disappointed in the numbers the car produced while the "normal" drivers think they are OK.

On putting summer tires on the car; people are assuming the current suspension calibrations can support them. On the surface it does not look like Acura had any plan for them since there is no optional suspension to support them. Since brands that do offer summers as an option package them with heavy duty suspensions as a matter of course. Its something to think about. Summers could just as easily have a negative effect.

 

I agree with you, performance is what should count...however often these magazines (it happens more frequently compared to the past) give the win in comparos to cars where the performance was not the best...let's not forget the laughable BMW M3 win against the Nissan GT-R and the Porsche 911 on C&D....that will be remembered for long time....to say it in other, more concise terms, sometimes the "focus" seems to shift depending on what cars they are testing....

 

To be honest, it's not fair to compare a Lexus GS to a TLX....just on price difference alone.....the GS is almost 2 segment above the TLX....

 

The easiest way to improve handling on any vehicle is to upgrade your tires. These are street legal 3 season tires, not Mickey Thompson drag radials in off sizes. The only negative effect you would ever encounter would be from trying to run these in snow and ice.

What a reach.

 

Yep, I agree, but am happy with the espresso interior. It would be nice if the headliner matched, but that is not a real issue.

 

I have both a 2012 TL SH-AWD and a 2015 TLX SH-AWD. The TLX is so much better to drive than the TL it's not even funny.

 

MT says: "The TLX pulled 0.82 g average on our skidpad, dead even with the TSX and way behind the TL, which pulled up to 0.91 g average".

Talk about reaching. I know you are the self appointed TLX push back guy but get real & Give me a break!!!

You have a car gimping around at 0.82G & you think switching to summer tires are going to turn it into a sport sedan? They have a long, long, long way to go to fix the TLX & a tire swap will not get it done. The humble Accord even did 0.87G.

The car does not have a performance suspension, which it should have as an option. Maybe the long awaited S-Type will improve the car.

Tires are a very important item but they do not operate in a vacuum. Acura said what they were doing suspension wise when they pulled the wishbones & went with plain non-double link struts. A nice comfy Buick ride luxury type ride.

The tires they are running on now are also contributing to its quite ride. Summer tires are not the most quite tires in creation. They can ride harder than all seasons & are trade offs when using them.

 

Here we go again. You are pretending everyone or anyone, for that matter, drives these cars on tracks. In normal, everyday diving, who's going to push the car to the extreme where it stresses the suspension. It seems you are suggesting that the TLX is a delicate flower that needs to be baby'd.

I have never heard of a car being damaged by changing tires of the same, correct size, causing damage. Have you?

 

Just because the sales numbers didnt mirror his opinion doesnt mean what a lot of what he is saying isnt true. A lot of the issues with the sales numbers were due to its polarizing design (cough cough beak)

 

2% is 2%. No one is saying the Manual will/would be a volume seller, its not meant to be but the fact is that its not there for those that DO want it is still a very big disappointment

 

please expound.
If you say NVH, I'm going to e-hurt you.

 

You dont have to drive it on the track to realize or take advantage of better crisper handling. There is more to the peak number than just a peak number. There is a lot under that number as to how it handles. You can have a more direct feel, crisper turn in, overall better feel which make the car more pleasant to drive. Mush like HP/TQ. Too many look at the number it produces, but its whats under that number that can make all the difference in everyday enjoyment of driving.

And no, he isnt saying it will damage the suspension. But if you knew anything about vehicle setup/handling (not trying to insult you) you would know that just by adding better tires doesnt mean its going to handle better. If the suspension isnt set up for it (ie rebound/dampening, spring rates, swaybars etc) its not going to be able to utilize the better handling tires and sometimes will actually give the negative results or make the car handle worse.

 

No doubt the TL, no matter what version is always a value. However, take his statements in the context of his opinion on the TLX. His claims for the 4G being a value leader somehow do not apply to the TLX in part because it is now not performance oriented (which I will admit is true) and smaller (again, I admit this is true as well).

According to Saturno- it wasn't the polarizing design for lackluster sales, it was the economy. Yet other car makers had no issues selling cars in the same time period.

Just looking at G37 numbers alone

2009 47k
2010 58k
2011 58k
2012 59k
2013 57k

Looking at TL numbers for the same time period

33k
34k
31k
33k
24k

In 2008 the 3G sold 46k which was the smallest number of units sold for this generation.

 

I DO understand the physics and mechanics involved. It's not rocket science. The only reasons one would change them is for less road noise or better grip. (Not counting those that go for asthetics). In essence, you are saying that a better gripping tire could be a bad thing. I've never in all my years, heard that. There needs to be a warning in the manual and tire info sticker stating that using a better handling tire could be detrimental to the car's handling abilities..........?

Haven't you been one that is very displeased by the tires Acura used on the TLX? Now you are saying that upgrading them could be a bad thing..

I just don't know anymore.

 

And in

2004 - 77,895

2005 - 78,218

2006 - 71,348

2007 - 58,545

 

Actually there have been tests that have shown upgrading tires doesnt necessarily mean better handling. I myself have bought better tires than the ones i was replacing and didnt get a performance increase at the track. Handling isnt just a throw this on and it will be better. It is a combined accumulation of pieces that make it better.

And Yes, i am more than displeased with the craptastic tires Acura offers on the TLX (i was also displeased with the crap goodyear 19s they put on the TL SH-AWD too). And NO, im NOT saying it will be a bad thing. Just stating that just because you put better tires on doesnt necessarily mean it will handle that much better. Im sure with typical Honda/Acura it will, but then again this is an all new suspension design and not the typical dual control arm design of the past.

 

If you are going to use the skid pad numbers of 0.82 G vs 0.91 G as your basis for comparison, you can't ignore the tires that the car came with as they are a huge component in obtaining that number. Do you not understand that, or as the self appointed Acura TLX sucks czar do you just conveniently choose to ignore it?

The ride/noise trade-offs with summer tires are obvious to any novice, but your comment about this car's suspension calibration not being able to handle street tires is just a joke. This isn't a 1980's cadillac that you are putting a track-setup on.

The TLX a sport sedan? Compared to an M3, no; compared to a TL, absolutely.

 

Agreed Chris, but according to Satuno_v, the low volume TSX V6, and the economy affected the TLs sales numbers negatively. If the timing were different, it apparently would have been a great success because it was such a great value, and has styling that will actually cause the vehicle to become highly sought after as time moves on.

The recession hit other manufacturers just as well, but their bottom lines weren't affected as badly.

 

Damn, I wish this tablet had the ability for emotes... I couldn't use them to show my tongue in cheek reply but it seems you picked up on it I forget the syntax for the good ones!

I agree that tires does not necessarily equate to better handling.

 

Gee we agree on something, this is very very scary

If they do produce a S-Type (they should in this market) the first thing they will do is springs, dampers, roll bars to maximize the cars ability to get the most of out summer ties. They did the same thing with the 3G even before the Type-S was rolled out. The base 6MT which had summers as an option did not have the same suspension as the 5AT. It even had a mechanical LSD as part of the package.

 

Neither do skidpad numbers.

 

I certainly don't disagree with you that their focus went to NVH, and quite frankly, that's not a bad thing as both the TSX and TL needed some NVH improvements. But the rather stark loss in performance means an entire segment of current owners that are being alienated and who will likely choose other brands as a result. Acura, given its rather meager sedan sales numbers, cannot afford to alienate any potential buyer at this point and the owner of a 6MT TSX or 6MT TL, as few rare as he may be, is more likely than not going to pass on the TLX precisely because of the lack of "sportiness" and performance.

Worst of all, Acura has pegged its advertising to the whole idea of "thrill" but it seems to be unable to deliver on that when stacked against its own previous products, much less the competition. While early adopters may not care that much, down the road, that lack of performance is going to hurt sales as the less fervent buyers start to get serious about cross shopping the competition.

The TLX is a decent car, no doubt, but in terms of long-term viability and growth, Acura needed more than decent. It needed a stunning and exceptional car to be able to last it through the current model cycle, especially since it is replacing two separate model lines. Now, it will need to seriously invest at the MMC because almost without a doubt, the TLX will quickly fall behind the pack again after only a few years on the market.

 

^^ You nailed it - there is no thrill, unless you get a hard-on thinking about your MPG and damn, this cabin is quiet!

 

Where is this proof of such a 'stark loss in performance'?

 

I did not say that the polarizing design has not played some part....just is not the whole story....

The data I read for the year 2010 for example (April and forward) says that the "ugly beakish" TL outsold its smaller and cheaper brother, the TSX.....

I mentioned other factors as well.....wrong size for the segment played some part too....many people thought the TL was just simply too big.

I know for a fact of 2 sales that did not go through because of the small trunk and lack of folding seats

 

I disagree to an extent.

I dont believe Acura's Mission was to create the ultimate sports sedan with maximum performance. As far as marketing slogans, do people really take them at face value? What slogan isn't hyped up, over emphasized, or twisted?
That's their whole point, and why its left to the marketers, and not the engineers. Mercedes' "Best or Nothing." ; really, any of those marketers even sit in a CLA? BMW is back with "The ultimate driving machine" but look at the line over the years, and what are the volume sellers which is the point I am trying to make.


I don't see the TLX ever compete with the 335, or S4 type vehicles (nor did the TL). Even in their own camps, the sports suspensions, 6 speed, sport dif equipped cars were not the sales leaders, in fact its quite the opposite, and those cars are normally not even on the lots.

To succeed, the TLX needs to do a better job competing against the 320/328, A4, and C class cars with the premium packages, heated seats, Navi systems, etc. That's its real competition, sporty sedans with all the comforts, and amenities. Against those cars, I believe it will succeed where the TL didn't.

As far as getting a hard-on from driving an Acura Sedan, if the handling, or performance of the TL did that for you, you really don't know what you are missing. What sportiness it does have doesn't come close to making up for the polarizing style.

 

There's an A on the front. No proof needed.

 

Wrong....the media pitted the TL 6MT in comparos against the 335 and S4 and the TL did very very well performance thank you (I posted the links)....it gave up just a bit on the straight acceleration (it was the largest car)
Pretty miuch All of us 4G SH-AWD owners cross shopped that kind of iron (and the 535i)

Yes nobody in their right mind would pit today the TLX against a 335i or an S4...I would not even put it against a 328i...


I really think you never set a foot on a TL SH-AWD 6MT to make that kind of statement....that car is the best handling sport sedan of that size for the money...period and frankly is not up for debate, not even the most ferocious critics of the style did....

 

My hope is that with Acura leaving so much to be desired with performance on the TLX, that this omission was intentional and that a more performance oriented TLX-S/TypeS will follow.

 

Its too bad we all can't live in magazine world, but the media, just like the public didn't buy the car either, and just goes to show even further how good those track tests sell cars in the real world.

I doubt anyone at Acura found much solace in them as their sales plunged into the toilet.

The 335, and S4 were immune to that, so where it really counted, the 4G didn't compete at all.

From the person who thinks the styling will be sought after in the future, and that the Q50 DAS is the greatest thing since sliced bread; Thanks for the input.

 

Shifting focus when is not convenient to you....so ok, the Camry is the best selling midsize sedan in the US right now so it must be the best handler out there...following your logic....ok I get it...




You are very welcome sir....I know it's tough being short on arguments

 

Not what I said at all; pay attention to the whole paragraph, and take it all in context before latching on to one sentence, and ignoring everything else. Also if you are going to try to call me out on shifting focus, perhaps you shouldn't do it yourself in such an obvious way.

What I said was neither are handling/performance gods, but to be considered a success for Acura, only one thing is going to matter, and that will be sales. That was their goal, plain and simple. Too far in either direction, and they end up the loser.

 

Aren't they already the loser?

 

Here I'm debating how sporty a car is and how it feels connected to the road...I do not care about anything else...I do not care about sales numbers....I buy what I like and suit my tastes....in my opinion the TL is the better sport sedan compared to the TLX, from my own driving impression and from what is emerging in magazines...full stop.

I wish Acura the best of luck for sales success.....and maybe toning down the car was the best move...again, happy for them but I did bring my business somewhere else last September (wife car) and I will do it again in short order for my own ride.

Frankly I do not care if the TLX will sell 10 times what the TL did...the car in its current form is not interesting for me...it is a competent middle of the pack performer, it does not excel nor distinguish itself in anything and the value for the money factor, for me and someone else is less than what the TL was.

If and when a some sort of Type S will hit the pavement I will re-evaluate accordingly (but I doubt it will be a dramatic increase in performance)...even if I'm still not a fan of the styling.

Honestly, I would love a significant jump in performance from my 6MT TL (thinking about V8 type of performance) so Acura has nothing to offer so far...the RLX Sport Hybrid seems impressive but the styling is even more bland and derivative than the TLX...and I'm not sure I'm ready to jump on the Hybrid bandwagon yet....

 

saturno_v, You haven't liked the TLX ever since it came out. I really don't know why you're still posting on this forum unless you feel you have to keep stressing your point that your TL is superior. What's the matter? You upset that the reviews have been very positive for the TLX and that all say it's an improvement over the TL? Just go buy something else then and don't go away mad...just go away.

 

Forget the 0.91G of the 4G if you want but then there is still the 0.87G of the Honda Accord to think about.

You want to weight the tires as the main handling factor & they are not. They are part of a integrated system not stand alone items.

A number of high performance cars have had tires developed specifically for them but always, always in conjunction with specific suspension tuning.

The TL 4G also had a suspension to support better performing tires, remember the bitches about the SHAWD versions being too stiff?

The TLX car is an MPG special & the tires are a component of that. No problem with that since its a good plan for their target buying pool.

Still think the whole "Thrill" marketing strategy is made from whole cloth & a con on people who don't know any better.

 

I still own an Acura....

I'm "upset" at the "positive" reviews of the TLX??

 

I think the "Ultimate driving machine " campaign of your beloved is also made from yarn but.. it's a marketing campaign. You FORGET that the motto only gets people in the door. . The car has to win over the buyer. Who buys a car because an ad says something, especially a big ticket item?

You are still trying to hard....

 

FWIW, there is a giant population of people on the TL forums (2nd gen, 3rd gen) who bought their V6 acuras at a time when they were as fast/faster than the fastest non-M/AMG/S (Back when there was an I4, a 3.2 V6, and the S was a V8) cars in Germany. We don't exactly understand why it's all of a sudden "impossible" for acura to do that again at a solid price point, even if some of the other driving dynamics the germans offer (i.e. RWD, unadultered dual clutch trannies, etc) are missing.

I suppose i'm in the minority, but I actually did buy a 335 in 2007 because it made more power than everything else in that class with easy tuning potential. I'd guess there are a lot of original 2nd gen Type-S guys and 3rd gen guys at azine that are still interested in that kind of thing and they're probably still driving their cars around. If Acura offered this exact same TLX and eschewed some of the pointless safety features for more power and a broader torque curve, I'd buy it in an instant. At some point, you have to consider that the Accord sold 27000 in October and the 3 series sold 13,400. Yes, relative to 4th gen and the IS/Q50, the TLX sales so far are a success, but is trying to fit squarely in the median between the accord and the 3 series, bringing in 4k-5k sales really the best strategy anymore? If you're into performance or cache, you probably just bought the 3 series. If you're into features and value, you probably just bought the new accord.

If the TLX isn't going to be the japanese alternative without sacrificing speed like the 3rd gen and 2nd gen - S, then that's fine, but I still think they need some sort of innovation, some sort of their own identity for their cars besides just trying to fall smack dab between an accord and a 3 series. Maybe that's what they were trying to do with all the safety tech, but i'm not sure turning Acura into the car for mom's or the Japanese version of Volvo is the answer.

With all of that said, the TLX is off to a good start. Just needs another variant.... preferably before spring comes and I replace my DD with a charger hellcat.

 

I heard an interview with one of the Acura guys (Hargett or Accavitti - forget which one) when the car was being rolled out to the public. The reporter asked him who was going to buy this car. He mentioned people who were in the market for a Lexus or BMW and also people who may be Accord owners who are maybe moving up the financial ladder a bit or looking for something nicer.

I suspect they have a much bigger market there than with the relatively smaller segment who wants a true luxury performance sedan. Given the 30k entry price I think we can see who's wheelhouse they are aiming for and given the sad state of sales for the outgoing TL they knew they had to shoot for the biggest target.

I can tell you I looked at TL's before I bought my 13 Accord EXL but couldn't justify it when the Accord ticked more of my boxes at a much lower price point. When they announced the TLX pricing model I felt like they were talking to me as 35k was about all I'm willing to spend on a car and the TLX was a (IMO) pretty big upgrade from the Accord in the things that mattered to me - ride quality (my ELX rode like an ox cart on side streets) and NVH and styling. Sure it would be fun if the TLX had a turbo 4 that put out 300 hp - but that's down much lower on my wants list and quite frankly I wouldn't pay extra for it.

Lexus sells a bunch of IS 250's and the base IS 250 certainly isn't a performance machine.

Sure - they may lose a handful of 3G owners who have been holding out and are disappointed with the true direction of the car - but I'll wager they gain a lot more guys like me into the fold who want a more upscale car at a decent price.

I agree that the marketing campaign may have been better served (I think the tagline "Because You Can" would be better than "It's that kind of thrill") but I'm a sales guy - I don't know crap about marketing