BEAR-AvHistory

The numbers were interesting in that the Acura fell 8 points. The BMW did gain 1 so at least its going in the correct direction.

But actually the only survey that counts to me is mine. My last 4 BMW's in total had less unplanned shop time combined than my TL did. Total out of pocket for all the BMW's not counting tires, including the 120K mile 2004 330Ci was about $1200.

Think guys burn more than that in brake jobs for still under warranty TL's. I did my own TL brakes & it still cost me a few hundred a shot for the Brembo's.

Contemporaneous posts on my TL is in the 3G forum starting in 2006.

It runs almost as well as more expensive AWD cars. Funny thing is it would run even worse against the less expensive RWD versions of those cars.

Outside of Audi AWD versions are not typically performance oriented while the SH-AWD is sold as the performance choice. Your numbers above show a very big spread between the 328 & the TLX. If that held for the 1/4 mile the TLX would be 150ft behind at the finish line

Bottom line is the TLX no matter what it can bring to the table its still a 14 second car. Where in the 14 second range we don't know yet. We also don't know if its a sub 6 second car yet. If anyone can get it there C&D will.

That is the TLX "Thrill" version, that is all there is. Every other brand has its thrill versions that will run sub 5 second 0-60, well into the 13's & some into the high 12 second brackets. Yes they cost more but a TLX costs more than an Accord. For most people there will always be something that costs more.

No point in getting into why some people pay more for cars than others they just do because they can.

.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

^ Bear...you don't own your BMW's sans your 04, long enough to experience out of warranty repairs

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

You don't think the TLX is a value?

You 4G owners sure are special...

saturno_v

Not as much as the 3G and the 4G at their time...definitely not...

Do not let your dislike for the styling (I assume) of the 4G cloud your judgement...

Mr Hyde

Seems a few members here, and myself have different definitions of repetitive than you do. This is a forum for Acura fans, not corporate, so when the same opinion is repeated ad nauseam, it gets old. The message, and messenger are one, and the same

This one made me literally LOL because this whole forum has quite a few posts from you with C&D, R&T, etc, etc times for other makes & models as you just did in this post.

I didn't post them to start a contest, just to point out that Edmund's times shouldn't be taken as such gospel since they tend to be off the mark compared to everyone else.

Reviews have been very good on the DCT so far, and for the first time ever, they brought in Zf for the V6 tranny, so it looks like they are starting to go down that path. At this point, it sounds like a complaint just for the sake of complaining.

Mr Hyde

It speaks volumes to what you focus on. A higher ranking is still a higher ranking, and at the end of the day, thats what matters.

The exception, not the rule. My 540 had more visits, and spent more untimed plan in the shop, than all my other vehicles over the last 15 years combined

If you really think that your experiences are the reality for everyone else, you are seriously deluded. It's also the same for anyone who thinks their one free oil change per year isn't baked into the price.

You make the normal sound like its unusual. Take the same exact normal car with the only difference being AWD, and the RWD version is typically faster. Whats faster a 335 xdrive or just the 335?

The fact that those lighter, RWD cars are faster on their summer only tires will weigh heavily on me when I see them being pushed around on the local streets by their poorly informed buyers after the first snow storm.

Weren't you just trying to argue how your BMWs were so cheap to maintain? So price isn't an issue now?

Mr Hyde

Most people wouldn't just base value on 0-60 times. The other tech, and features are usually a part of the package. Being the value alternative has always been a part of the Japanese manufacturers participation in the lux segment.
As has been said already, the 4G was regarded as such a value by everyone that sales took a nose dive, even after the nose job.

saturno_v

Yes...and I pull numbers from the same source when I compare two cars against each other....it can be R&T, MT, C&D, Edmunds, etc...you cannot compare numbers from different sources.

Yes they tend to be higher....for every car...so when you say that Edmunds got the competitors in the 5.5 and up range anyway, I had to reply that Edmunds did 6.4 for the TLX....a far cry from the 5.5 many hope for...this is the reason we need to wait for numbers from other sources....I repeat if the other competitors are 5.5 and up cars, the TLX is a 6.4 car from that same source (Edmunds).


Never had any complain about the smoothness of the Honda gearboxes....just the efficiency and speed.....however, besides Acura, seems that this 9 speed ZF for traverse mounted engines is not as good (gear change speed wise) as the 8 Speed for longitudinal applications, according the the impression people got from the Chrysler 200 which uses the same transmission.

saturno_v

People should not base value on personal styling appeal either.....Tech wise the TLX has merely caught up with the competition. Even Acura positioned the TL in their marketing material above to where the TLX is...that is all I need to know and confirmed by my own impression.

You will never see this marketing comparo from Acura for the TLX.

Stew4HD

^ Value is based on whatever the consumer wants to base it on. You and I are in no position to dictate the meaning. What you find value in I may think it's crap. No one said that the horrendous beak of the '09-'11 would change the value but it could be taken into account due to resale value of such a hideous looking car. So, styling could very well play into it.

Your obvious dislike for the TLX has clouded your judgment, it seems.

What competition has the tech of the TLX Advance or SH-AWD?

saturno_v

I totally agree that value as concept can be subjective....content is not...I was talking about value in terms of contents/performance. The TL did punch above its price bracket where the TLX, in my opinion, doesn't.


On another personal note, I strongly believe the styling of the 4G will be revalued in the future when people will be finally tired of the pervasive sameness in the automotive world....and I believe a stronger brand would have helped the 4G in being more successful.....and I definitely do not buy the fact that the 4G was considered so ugly by many....I received more compliment for this car than any other I ever owned, the are also other reasons other than its less polarizing style for its less stellar sales record compared to the 3G

I repeat, I do not dislike the TLX per se...it is a good car I'm sure...just not as distinctive and not as great value as the TL was...again for me

Competition for the TLX SH-AWD?? Buick Regal AWD and Ford Fusion AWD, at the low level, BMW 328i xDrive or Audi A4 Quattro at the top end. Before you laugh, the Regal GS AWD has been compared to the 328i xDrive not by me but by few magazines as well including Consumer Report.

Stew4HD

AWD and SH-AWD are very different... just saying.... Acura does have class leading tech according to many in the industry.

Mr Hyde

Once again, there are plenty of posts here in the TLX forum with times from C&D, R&T, etc. Since these times aren't present for the TLX, how were you not comparing the times from different sources? You even did it in this thread.

You are basing all that just on the Chrysler 200? How does Chyrsyler's experience trump Acura's, and Zf's? No question who I would put more faith in.

That's all you needed? A brochure from a marketer? You just gave your compatriot Bear the chills!
I really do hope I never see such a comparo as it would be just as embarrassing as that one. I went straight from a TL to a 540; they were not equivalent vehicles.

Wow. The power of denial.

For the record, I liked the post MMC car, and thought it looked 100x better, but would have never bought the pre-version. If it was just looks, sales should have gone up a little, but they just continued to drop.

saturno_v

True....too bad that they do not put them to very good use...this is what is damning about Acura.....

However the SH-AWD shine is wearing off as the competition is catching up....nowadays pretty much every AWD scheme, even the less expensive ones like Haldex uses at least passive Torque Vectoring (brake based).

Active Torque Vectoring is a reality for BMW and Audi as well.

This is another reason why the TLX is not (again IMHO) anymore the great value proposition the RL first and 4G TL after were at their time....SH-AWD is not longer that big of a deal....and the lack of FI engines with their fat torque curve is a very real issue (not only for Acura but all the Japanese brands)

Stew4HD

Well, at least you admitted that the SH-AWD is not lagging the competition

For enthusiasts that care about the torque curves, yes. To the average and widely the largest population of buyers, no.

saturno_v

I do not get your point...we have so far 3 number set from popular mags for the TLX I believe...Edmunds (FWD 4 Cyl and V6 SH-AWD) and C&D (4 cyl FWD) and frankly there is nothing to be excited about...what TOV did I do not care as they will never test the competiton so....I compare numbers from mags and we are still waiting for more data on the TLX...


That ZF 9 speed is very new....we will see as more models come down the pipeline


The "marketer" is the builder of the car so I expect a minimum of benchmarking to avoid being laughed out hard....definitely the 3G TL and the 5 Series were very different, especially if you pick the 540i which was the top dog (apart from the M5)...quite few 4G owners cross shopped the 5 Series though (ask around...pretty much every 4G SH-AWD owner on this forum)


Maybe...we will see.....however you should check the sales stats for the end of 2010 (the oldest data available from the GOOD CAR BAD CAR blog) for TL + TSX and run it against current sales for the TLX..it may surprise you (and general economic situation was very different)....check it out, you know, I'm a number person...

You want to know my theory for the lack of sales success of the 4G compared to the 3G??

- Dead wrong timing (end of 2008)

- Wrong size going up one segment but holding back on some luxury amenities to defend the agonizing RL sales (how asinine on Acura part to keep two cars of the same size and powertrain together...the RL should have been killed))

- Lack of folding rear seats and small trunk.

- Internal competition from the V6 TSX (second generation introduced the same year as the 4G)


Style had a very little impact on this


More Acura marketing material on the 4G - 5 Series comparo...

saturno_v

You seem to forget that I do drive a SH-AWD for a reason

It is actually the opposite...many enthusiasts still like the NA engines, everyday drivers appreciate a lot the low end torque effortless driving of the new turbos...

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

At this point, I think it's best to wait for more publication for the TLX numbers. I don't think it's fair to just discard TOV's figures though. To be fair, Jeff didn't use any correction factors to make the numbers look better. And the car he had only had 5% oil life in it.

Here are a comparison between Jeff's figures of the TLX and the IS350 AWD
2014 Lexus IS Line Verdict - Motor Trend All Pages

In particular, here are the performance figures of the IS350 AWD:

Weight: 3822lb
0-30: 1.9s
0-40: 2.8s
0-50: 4.0s
0-60: 5.3s
0-70: 7.1s

1/4 mile: 13.9s@99.4mph

For comparison, here are the figures that Jeff got in the TLX AWD:
0-30: 1.9s
0-40: 3.0s
0-50: 4.0s
0-60: 5.5s
0-70: 6.9s

I think it's safe to say that both sets of numbers match up quite evenly. I'd imagine the TLX will end up matching the IS350 AWD in the 1/4 mile too.

Here are figures of the IS350 RWD F Sport from Car and Driver:
Habemus Papem! 2013 BMW 335i M Sport vs. 2013 Cadillac ATS 3.6, 2014 Lexus IS350 F Sport Comparison Tests - Page 5 - Car and Driver

0-30: 2.0s
0-60: 5.6s
1/4 mile: 14.0 s @ 102

Mr Hyde

My point being you say you don't like to compare numbers from different sources, yet all the stats you keep posting from C&D, etc are all being posted as benchmarks. If that's not a comparison across sources, I don't know what is.

Yikes. Really?
Am I the only one who would laugh/shake his head when watching the ads comparing a Lincoln to the acceleration of a Lexus, the fuel economy of a 3 series, and the price of a Mercedes thereby concluding of course that it was better than all three?

Hyundai used to run similar ones which used to make me chuckle as well.

saturno_v

Ok let me more clear (I hope)...I do not want to compare numbers for car #1 got from one source with numbers from car #2 got from another source...the source has to be consistent...

Yes, really.....I never saw ads when two different class of cars are put in the same sentence as a whole...ever seen a Camry ad where is pitted against an E Class?? Now, you may run into an ad where just to make a point the manufacturer may claim that particular car has been measured, just for sake of an example, quieter than an S Class or a Rolls Royce...that does not mean the two cars are directly compared.

What I posted are not just ads but marketing articles from an Acura magazine (obviously biased coming from Acura) where several parameters for a direct competition are mentioned...is not a TV spot or a one liner page ad.

If you want I can post you the link from the official Acura press release about the 4G where the 5 Series is specifically mentioned as an also competitor.....or you may do your own homework about it at Honda Media Newsroom

Laugh all you want about the Genesis, actually it fares extremely well compared to the German irons and it is more desirable than Acura own RLX ...and guess what...is not even that cheap anymore....do you know that Hyundai sells 10 Genesis for every RLX sold by Acura?? It sells as many Equus as Acura RLX.

BEAR-AvHistory

Just saying, I have not reliability issues with the BMW's but did with the TL, that's all I can go by. If your 540 was crappy it was crappy, stuff happens. One of my kids has an X5 & its has been trouble free, but I am sure someone knows someone who's wheels fell off.

My youngest daughters Porsche Cayenne is too new so no report on that. Bottom line is the family has had good luck with German cars, same with US cars. The FORD trucks have run great & two are at 100K miles & have brake, oil & tire money in them.

Of course the maintenance is built into the price there is no free lunch:

Guy buys a TLX V6 Advance AWD & goes in for some normal expendables. Brakes, that will be $1000 please. Air Filter, that will be $130 please. Wiper blades, that will be $50 please. Thank You for your patronage.

His brother buys a 320 about the same price as the TLX. He goes in for expendables. Good afternoon sir we replaced your pads & rotors, the engine air filter & the wiper blades were streaky so we also replaced them. Here are your keys & service record, have a nice day.

Was not auguring anything about the relative cost to maintain a car just giving my personal experience.

On the AWD its a necessity on the TLX because its the cars best handling package. The other brands don't need it, no more or less to it then that.

FWIW. I drove about 25 years sun, rain, snow & sleet from the Jersey shore to Wall St mostly in a RWD StingRay without any major problems. Got stuck once in awhile but it was no big deal, never got towed out, with Snow Tires on the car. AWD was still 99% Jeeps so we all just made do.

Today with summer tires on all the cars they just stay parked when the once every few years snow hits. All the SVU's & trucks in the family are 4X4 so we can get by even on ski trips. The pickups because we go shooting have lugged tires so the only problem would be ice.

For GGESQ. I keep DD's for 4 or so years most of the time have since the 1960's. Special use cars/trucks/SUV's are kept for generally much longer periods & a few back when I was racing for only about a year.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

Bear-what issues have you had with your BMW's?

BEAR-AvHistory

The 2004 was a 330Ci ZHP 6MT. Kind of like the 335is series. A bit more than the normal car but not an M car.

Under warranty the brakes (rotors & disks)were replaced twice. No recalls.

Out of my pocket I replaced the 4 02 sensors at about 80K miles about $400. The valve cover gasket failed at 86K. Replaced the gasket various seals screws etc about $90. At 110 miles rubber or composite parts in the intake tract started to bleed air, replace the whole section about $300.

Car was about 11 years old when I sold it. Would have been due for spark plugs & radiator hoses. All work was done by myself so they are without any associated labor charges.

335IS. Battery Cable recall to replace a termination that might not have been assembled correctly. Broken radiator hose, might have been nicked by me when I put in an oversized FMIC. Repaired under warranty. Aerial in door handle replaced. Nothing more but scheduled maintenance.

This is despite the car being run at both track days & the drag strip finalizing at 410whp with 18.5psi on 100 octane fuel. Very solid motor & DCT trans.

135is scheduled maintenance no recalls 17K miles.

X3 nothing but scheduled maintenance, a daughter has it now. Current mileage unknown

435 too new to report, hopefully.

Mr Hyde

So you had a bum TL, and I had a bum BMW. Stuff happens, but in every long term reliability analysis, the stuff happens more often to the BMW owner. Arguing otherwise is just ridiculous, especially if you are not keeping them past 4 years.

Really dealer installed wiper blades? So what would the same items cost on a 328 as soon as it's off the free maintenance? The $1000 brakes probably costs a bajillion dollars on the BMW, and that is on top of the thousands more spent on the car itself.

No more to it according to you?
So the AWD isn't bought for its all weather capability? Thanks for setting me straight on why so many cars in the northeast are now being sold optioned with AWD.


You also drove with drum brakes, no traction control, ABS, etc. Time marches on.


Lol. All that talk about reliability experience.

BEAR-AvHistory

So I keep cars for 4/5 years & they don't break in those 4 years, what's the problem, sounds like a win to me. A new car with new stuff is generally better than one you have been driving for a while, as you said time marches on.

Cars improve over time, you already have guys here with their tongues hanging out waiting on the MMC. Do I really care what happens to a car I have not owned for 3/4 years? NAH!!

Honda has been wracking up the recalls of late & the Civic was even pulled from the CR recommend list while some BMW models have been added onto it

AWD is nice in the snow no problem with it no matter what flavor it is. My comment was about the nose heavy FWD based TL/TLX requiring it for good over the country road handling while it is not needed in the RWD cars. Your results my differ.

And a 335 costs more than 328 & a 550 costs more than a 335. So what's your point pay me now or pay me later? Thing is the manufactures allow the dealers quite a bit less for warranty work than a retail customer pays the dealer out of pocket for the same job. You are better off having a warranty priced free service item baked into your purchase price than to pay retail ala cate out of your pocket.

Actually the Vette had 4 wheel fixed caliper multi piston disk brakes & a LSD. Was more than enough to get around.

Mr Hyde

Nothing except for your portrayal of them as being so reliable, and cheap to own overall, when you only have experience with them in the short run, and dump them right before the real costs start to accrue. Repair costs should be zero if you never own the car off warranty.

Less people are fearful about owning Acuras off warranty, and rushing to trade in prior to that point.

More like pay me now and pay me later.

The airbag one? Saw you mentioned it prior to your edit.... Didn't BMW, and a host of other manufacturers all get airbags from the same manufacturer? Is that why you edited that out?

BEAR-AvHistory

Think Honda was in 1st place with 5,000,000. BMW was well behind with 630,000. But over all Honda is doing quite well in hiding the deaths.

Actually I deleted it because I lost the link to this:

Report: Honda accused of not reporting all airbag problems & hiding the fatalities, but have recovered it:

Honda accused of not reporting all airbag problems - Autoblog

Love this forms total outrage over GM's key issue while Honda failed to report fatalities due to bad airbags.

Report: Honda execs take 'quality-related' pay cut after Fit Hybrid's 5th recall
6 days ago...& so. Agree once agan times are changing.

Guess you are aware that of the 10 most recalls in the last 25 years Honda is #2 on the list, BMW did not make the cut. Lots of myths out there in reliability land.

Stew4HD

^So, accused = guilty? You sure are quick to jump to the defense of anything negative about BMW on here yet you give me crap about defending the car this forum is created for? *snicker, snicker* Pot, meet kettle!

#2 on the list and how many units are out there in the wild? How many of those recalls are for minor things?

Mr Hyde

Im sure it wasnt deleted while you tried to figure out how to spin it more favorably for BMW. Honda bought more airbags? From a Japanese supplier? Really? Next you'll be telling me they buy more tires every year as well.

With stats like that someone was obviously burning the midnight oil on Google. Stew already touched on the 2 things I would have asked. How was it as a percentage of sale? Where were the Acura models listed in that report?

Take these Takata airbags out of the picture, an where do they plummet to?

I guess the long term reliability ratings on CR, and others in the realm of unicorns, and fairy dust as well, but if you only want to focus on recalls since nothing else can be spun your way for reliability.

Some people like to argue for the sake of arguing, An older BMW is not more reliable than an older Honda, but feel free to tell everyone the sky isn't blue.

BEAR-AvHistory

Figured it was so unbelievable to you that the BS flag would be up as fast as you can type. Link was therefore required don't you think?

The recall record is not for units recalled but for individual items recalled, big difference in how many times an individual owner needs to troop over to the dealer to get something fixed. Not sure if minor things is a fair hand wash since recalls are only safety related.

The Honda execs committing corporate Seppuku speak to how important the poor results are to Honda reputation so again its not trivial to them.

FWIW My TL had 4 recalls & 1 TSB (rebuilt the transmission) while all my BMW's combined have had 1.

I don't worry about old cars remember. Anyway that's all history & the Honda Corp is not as happy, peachy, keen as you are about CURRENT issues, just ask their execs with the 20% pay cuts. You can live in the past but as you said Times are changing

Stew There is a difference in responding to a question or statement than jumping into as many threads as possiable to defend the car. Actually IIRC you were #1 not #2 so don't sell yourself short.

Mr Hyde

Do we really have to explain to you how higher volume sales = more suppliers = greater probability of recalls. Not surprising that there are less recalls for manufacturers that sell less vehicles.

Where was Toyota/Lexus on that list? Guess BMW is more reliable than Lexus too!

Exactly. Yet here trying to argue your reliability experiences as if everyone else should expect the same, conveniently leaving out the part about not keeping the cars post warranty. You also conveniently ignore the most consistently used reports like CR, yet here you are, "the sky is purple!"

Stew4HD

Actually, NO, there isn't a difference. You jump/pounce to the defense of any post made that shows your beloved BMW in a negative light, especially if, GASP, someone says that the TLX is comparable to the 328 or above.. heaven forbid!

You assume I am trying to raise post count or something and than you make your snide remarks about the THANKS I add and what not. What is that all about? Why do you care how much I post or question comments? Hmmm? I am pretty sure I know the answer but want to see your reply.



/endrant

BEAR-AvHistory

Honda was alone as no other Japanese cars were on the list. Have not ignored CR, I did mentioned they pulled Civic from the recommended list & added some random BMW's to the recommended list. Its looking good for the future.

CR 5 car Avoid list:
JEEP Liberty
Prius C
FORD Edge
Chrysler Grand Caravan

Perhaps of little surprise is the presence of the Honda Civic on this list. The latest Civic has been getting dinged by auto critics left and right, and CR specifically points to a "Choppy ride, noisy cabin, vague steering, and mediocre interior quality" as reasons for its inclusion on the list

What you want to conveniently ignore is the 8 position drop in Hondas quality ranking. Its still 3 places higher than BMW but the German brand is trending up while Honda is tanking.

The totally unreliable BMW down only 3 places to the uber reliable Honda brand, very interesting. That's either very good for BMW or very bad for Honda take your pick.

BEAR-AvHistory

Stew are you going to update your signature? You think it compares well to the 328/428 I think it matches the 320 better. I don't think it matches up to the 335/435 especially the performance optioned ones.

Now for the required snide comment. I would not recommend either to anyone buying a 320 or 328 for a sports fun version. If the seating is OK for their intended use the 228 & M235 are a lot more fun to drive for a reasonable price.

BEAR-AvHistory

Just reread one of the posts More sales volume = more suppliers = more recalls.

Have to wonder about the correlation of suppliers to sales volume. Why would they not, since they use just in time inventory for production, just use suppliers who could commit to providing the requisite number of parts. Instead of 5 guys supplying windshields why wouldn’t they choose a supplier & backup that could meet the demand.

Looks like all the air bags for the 10 companies that are in trouble for 10 million or so defective bags came from the same supplier so apparently the individual suppliers can crank out a lot of goods.

Stew4HD

Why would I update my signature? There is no #1 defender... a lot of us are tied for #2 though.

Your definition of "matching" is your own opinion. It's not about "matching" anyway. It's, again, obvious that you think your beloved car company is the tits and that is your prerogative. That does not make it a true statement. IMO, it's ambiguous to say because the there is no true way to compare. Price? Amount of legroom? Amount of wood? Horsepower? RWD v. FWD v. AWD?

You base your opinion of where a car fits into a "slot" on certain things, I base mine on others, everyone has their own views.. which IS what I have been saying all along.

We do appreciate your opinion regarding the 320 & 328. It is duly noted

I see you didn't answer my question either. Why do my posts irritate you enough to comment on how much I post? You can always put me on ignore, tis so simple to do

JT4

BEAR-AvHistory

Two things, its not my beloved car company. Its the one I have at the moment as a DD. If some other company has what I want when I sell off the 435 I would buy from them in a heartbeat.

Very few car companies outside of Chrysler have not had at least one car in my driveway. Right now its BMW, FORD, Nissan FFR & a Yamaha bike. I believe each is a good choice for its intended purpose.

Actually your posts do not irritate me. Your multiple reactions to my comment about them are actually fun reading. Its nice to see such loyalty in this day & age of multiple choices.

Agree I do slot them into different buckets was a time I had at least one station wagon on hand, FORD & Volvo. If you remember said it was my OPINION vs how the TLX is being advertised. They wish to advertise a hot DD it seem fair to comment on those attributes. If it was advertised as a competent high millage DD I would say atta boy. You might remember I was one of the first to say the car would be a success when the "loyal" fans were kicking the crap out of it.

This is my idea of what a car advertised the way the TLX is being portrayed as should actually be able to do. Road test is in a little from the opening commercials.


Have not had a chance to track day mine yet but its a few hundred pounds heavier with 23 more horsepower than the M235. BMW quote the same 0-60 & 1/4 mile time/speed but would expect in the hands of a good driver the M235 would be quicker around a road course. I did recommend this car over the 320/328/base 335 as a fun DD if the seating package will fit your requirements

Stew4HD

Can I get some with extra butter?

jterp7

Again with the 320i lol. Only the M235i represents a true bmw that is 50k or less, too bad they axed the gc idea early on....also should come stock with the lsd but thats another issue.