Here's my take on the real real world problem -- to most people with money who don't research -- Lexus will always be a glorified Toyota, Acura will always be a gussied up Honda, Audi will always be a VW, and so on. To the people I know -- Merc and BMW are the 2 premium brands because they are stand alone brands.


According to Forbes BMW is the 11th most valuable and the 1st luxury car manufacturer brand listed. MB, 16th, Audi, 43rd, Lexus, 73rd.


http://www.forbes.com/powerful-brands/list/

Hello.. Taco Bell over here.

It doesn't matter if they're buying Hondas, Zondas or Audi's. If the deciding factor is to imitate, then they're sheep. I choose what suits me best within my budget.

According to this list, Toyota comes before Mercedes. It's just a list of valueable brands and has nothing to do with prestige. And it's a mix of all industries so not a list we can use to evaluate car makes.

Do you have another benchmark? BMW is a valuable brand precisely because of it's heritage of prestige not because of it's ubiquity. Toyota is a valuable brand because of it's ubiquity plus it's equity as the most reliable car manufacturer. The brands that are off shoots of larger car companies e.g Lexus are much lower even though it could be argued it makes better cars. Why the 62 position mark down? I'd posit that it's due to lack of prestige.

Interesting. Although the TLX isn't really a gussied up anything. If anything, there will be a stripped down TLX sold in Australia called the "Accord Euro". I don't think any of the current cars on the market by Honda or Acura are identical to the TLX.

Edit: Also, I noticed that up until 2009, the A4 was a Volkswagen Passat. Since 2009, however, I thought it was kind of its own thing.

Very articulate

I bet Tommy's mom spanks him for considering trading a new Lexus she just bought him....

its still pretty much a passat. I don't get the A4 appeal... Unrealiable, unimaginative...

The A5/S5 is a gorgeous car.

Not a Passat but a Jetta. Passat is bigger

I agree on the Audi boring, bland style but other than sharing engines the Passat or the Jetta has nothing to do with the A4...totally different platform and just a couple of miles of driving both would make that very clear to anybody.
The only reason Honda get away with using the Accord platform (still tweaked in some areas) on the Acura cars is because the Accord it is and it always has been the benchmark for driving enjoyment and handling in the midsize segment, the others (Passat, Camry, Sonata etc...) do not even come close. Someone call it the "3 Series of the FWD sedan"

While shopping with my friend for his car we test drove 535i, A6, E350, XF, RLX, GS350, Panamera (all 2013s) and the A6 was by far the most fun to drive and extremely responsive.

I also recently test drove a 2013 Panamera.

Needless to say I was extremely disappointed with the driving dynamics, and it was a Panamera Turbo! It felt extremely isolated, bloated and big; nonresponsive steering and a weird heavy and hard to press accelerator didn't help.

IMHO my TL 6MT felt more responsive. Scratching the Panny off the list...

I couldn't pass the truck on the highway in time to which the salesperson said, Sorry, it's not the "S" LMAO! I don't wanna hear that when I am spending $90K+

A buddy lent me his S5 for a week last year...I LOVED IT.

Except that to the USA Luxury buyers it clearly indicate that Lexus is the equivalent of BMW/Mercedes.

Facts over the last decade, and stats over the last decade proves this.

Facts and Stats prove that to someone with 40,000 USD... there is almost a equal chance of that person getting a Lexus as that person getting a Mercedes or BMW.

The people 'with money' that matters to the car industry is the Upper Middle Class tier that can afford 34,000-70,000 USD cars. That's the 'money' which matters.

Also .. let's not act so snobbish and pretend like these people who shell out 40k are not 'rich'. .They are rich compared to the rest of the USA, they are not compared to the elite fraction above them.


The bottom line is this:

Sales for Lexus, the top-selling U.S. premium brand for 11 years until falling behind BMW and Mercedes-Benz in 2011


Even than, it's very close.

The matter of the fact is once again.

If you have a budget of 40,000+... sales indicate that the chances of you getting a Lexus is around the same as the chances of you getting a Mercedes/BMW... and that makes Lexus a TIER 1 Luxury Brand in the UNITED STATES.

World Wide... perception might be different. But we are talking USA here.

You can't really argue with me because I got actual facts and stats proving what I say is correct.

You can't say 'Well I believe to most people with money they still regard BMW/Mercedes as the MUCH HIGHER BRAND....'
when I post actual sales number that proves this wrong.

The bottom line is this:

If Mercedes/BMW is SO MUCH better than Lexus.. why the Hell are these people with money getting so many Lexus cars when for the SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY they can get a BMW?

BMW is not THAT much more expensive than Lexus... not enough to matter.

If you have 40k....... and if the 'BMW is superior to Lexus' ideal is 'true' in the United States.. why aren't you getting a BMW? Why do sales prove that you are still getting a Lexus in equal amounts?

When 3 brands sell luxury cars for around the same amount of money and when they are all equal to each other in sales(or nearly so) that proves the public perception is that these 3 brands are equal.

Also I go to a University with over 20,000 students.

Nobody thinks that a Lexus is a 'expensive Toyota'.

Nobody.

Actually most of these students don't even know Infiniti is the Luxury Brand of Nissan.
Or that Acura is the luxury brand of Honda.

They view them as separate entities.

Why do their opinions matter? Because they are the ones who tell their Mommys and Daddys what to get them.

And it still goes like this:
Lexus/BMW/Mercedes

Acura/Infiniti/Audi/

Volvo/Cad/

Once again.. the actual rankings of QUALITY might not be like this.. but sales indicate it is.

Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Lexus are all Tier 1 luxury brands.

Infiniti and Acura are Tier 2 Luxury brands.

Even Hyundai's Equus and Genesis are pitted against Tier 1 Luxury brands but never Acura/Infiniti.

I agree. I was just talking to that one poster who claims Lexus is 'far behind' Mercedes and BMW in perception among USA Luxury sellers.. when facts and stats prove that is not the case.

Lexus is a TIER 1 Luxury brand in the USA.
QUALITY AND PERCEPTION.

That shouldn't even be a debate.

"You can't really argue with me because I got actual facts and stats proving what I say is correct." is another way of saying closed minded.


"Also .. let's not act so snobbish" - you're the one who said that you go to a school where everyone is rich which we're supposed to infer means you are too.


Fact - Brand value, brand equity, brand power are the only stats that matter.


"The people 'with money' that matters to the car industry is the Upper Middle Class tier that can afford 34,000-70,000 USD cars. That's the 'money' which matters. " - You show your gilded innocence here -- there is no middle class of any substance anymore and what remains is quickly disappearing. The people with money that matters buy 100K plus cars. I'd bet most people in the $34,000 -$70,000 take advantage of easy lease terms.

Hyundai will create a luxury Division.. Count on it.
That car is becoming too powerful not to have a 'luxury tier' very soon.
Despite them saying 'it might not be the case' ... we all know that soon there will be some 40k Hyundai's.

That being said.. most car review lists usually pit cars around the same price against each other.

In other words.. if you look up Audi A4.. every single time the Acural TL and G37 will be listed as it's competitors.
To the market world.... they are all 'Entry Level Luxury Sedan' segments.

Hyundai I think will very soon make a big splash.........the Genesis is a wonderful car.

Especially the 2015 Genesis and the 2014 Equus. I know they copy others but who cares. I never liked the interior of either of them but the new interior they made is right from Bentley Continental and looks very luxurious.

Check it out:

http://www.hyundaicanada.com/Pages/s...px?model=equus

Well if you are talking about 100k+ crowd.. Yes of course BMW/Mercedes are viewed as a higher brand.

I'm talking about the 34k-70k crowd.

You are showing your extreme ignorance by claiming that crowd doesn't matter.

You take away the 34k-70k crowd and BMW will fucking die.

To even deny that is absurdity and shows your prejudice.

You take away all these 3 Series and 5 Series buyers.. you take away all these SUV X Buyers...................BMW will die.

To your beloved 'BMW' Brand... the 34k-70k Crowd is far more important than the 100k Crowd.

Also the 100k+ crowd isn't looking for BMW'S either.. lmfao. They are looking at unique specialty brands. To them BMW is a Passat level car.

BMW and Mercedes thrive on their 'leases' a lot more than Lexus as well.
We all know this.


What's happening in Europe or Asia have no relevance on regards to how the Brands are viewed in America.

In America... BMW/MERCEDES/LEXUS are on the same level and to even deny that speaks of heavy bias or retardation.

http://www.autonews.com/article/2013...#axzz2qV91Tfct


Once again... somebody explain to me why so many buyers are choosing Lexus when they can actually SPEND LESS MONEY on a BMW in a lot of cases and if they spend just a 'little' more they can get a Mercedes?

It's not about the money............they are all expensive cars.
So if the BMW/MERCEDES Brand is so SUPERIOR.. why are these buyers who can afford them.. going to Lexus?

Your post completely offends me. You are rude and inexperienced.

Dude, I run a company that services multiple leading brands across the web, through social, and on mobile devices. I know what's happening to "middle class" people and "middle class" brands. I interact with Silicon Valley and Silicon Beach all day long. Get your head out of your parents gold plated butts for a few years, go make some money of your own, get a few business battle scars, and then get back with me.

All German car makers sell their entry level cars the most i.e 3 series, C Class and A4. These cars are their bread and butter. People who want to get into a Tier 1 luxury brand without breaking their bank get these entry level cars. For instance, you can either get a Top of the Line TL or a basic 3 series for more or less the same price. I chose the TL but many would pic the 3 series.

The fact that you have a air of snobbery and declare Lexus as a 2nd tier Luxury car offends not only me but every person in the Auto Industry.
http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...tion-merc.aspx

I can link 1000 more articles from 1000 more sources that all compare Lexus to BMW and Mercedes.

The ENTIRE Auto Industry view these 3 as the giants of Luxury Brands.

You can deny it all you want, you can be rude all you want... facts,numbers,stats, prove you wrong.


This entire thread has me linking non stop numbers and articles.. and the only counters to my arguments are opinions.

11 BMW

Value -- $27,9677,6-Automotive

And that is a fact.

The truth is among the 34k-75k crowd is what matters the most to BMW.

To the people talking about the 150k+ 'rich people' crowd. They don't look at BMW'S anyways.


If you have 50k... BMW is considered yes?

Now what if you have 250k.. is BMW still considered? No.

BMW fans need to stop acting like BMW is some unique super brand when they are simply a Luxury Brand for the above average.

You can ask 1 Million people age 18-35. and they won't know that ranking.

You ask 1 million people age 18-35 to list what they think are the top 3 Luxury Brands in America?

It's gonna be mostly BMW/MERCEDES/LEXUS answers.

Why don't you link SALES numbers in the United States?

You STILL haven't answered my question btw.

Why are people who can afford BMW going to Lexus? It's definitely not because it's a 'better deal'.. It's the same price. Lexus is actually a bit more expensive.

73 Lexus

Value $7,000,000 - Automotive

Once again............nobody's answered this question:

WHY ARE BUYERS who can AFFORD BMW'S going to Lexus in equal amounts?

WHY IS THIS? If BMW is perceived as the MUCH STRONGER BRAND and SUPERIOR LUXURY BRAND. How come they are not crushing Lexus?

Both brands sale for around the same price. So WHY aren't BMW dominating?

In AMERICA.. You know... The place we are TALKING ABOUT.

It's
BMW/MERCEDES/LEXUS

And the ONLY reason BMW is even competitive is because of that 3 Series. Ironic isn't it? You know that 34k Buyer range? Lol.

Answer my question.

So why oh why are American Luxury buyers going to Lexus in equal amounts if BMW IS SO FAR AHEAD?

Why? Explain to me.

Come on.. Give it a shot.

LMAO! Tommy, I already agree with you that Lexus is a Tier 1 brand but the automotive industry can confuse anyone and I don't blame people who don't agree with you.

The industry dictates that Infiniti is a Tier 2 luxury brand and then MotorTrend pitts the Q50 against the new IS350 and MotorTrend is an authority. MotorTrend Car of the Year Award is like Oscar's for cars.

Acura's RLX is not competitive with the BMW 5 because it shows despite being around the same price, the BMW brand is still viewed as a higher Brand than Acura.


Yet the Lexus tiers are VERY competitive against BMW and they are all the same price as well.

Which shows that the Lexus Brand is viewed on the same level as the BMW Brand.

This is common sense and logic.

Wrong, on the brand perception level Lexus is not on the same level as BMW and Mercedes. Not at all. It doesn't even have the model range to compete.


Lexus sales are saved by their SUVs...they established themselves very well with the SUV buyers....historically BMW and MB made mincemeat of Lexus in the entry level and midsize luxury sedan segments (where the IS and GS compete)

An S Class or even a 7 Series will alwyas be generally considered by the general population a superior, more luxurious vehicle than a Lexus LS.

What kind of logic is that?? People do not buy cars only on brand (thankfully!!) As an Acura owner I recognize that BMW is the superior brand as image int he luxury space but in that price segment (mid $40K) I considered the TL to be the better value for my needs

I beg to differt...Infiniti is almost Tier 1, definitely higher than Acura...just look at their product range.

That is correct....luxury cars nowadays are mainly leased and the German brands are much more leased than the Japanese...this is the reason why in the premium segment the old "dead reliable" paradigm and advantage point of the Japanese brands is fading....

Long term reliability unfortunately do not sell anymore in the luxury segment....again, the vast majority of "purchases" nowadays are leases, then the second owner, when the car come out of lease, get some sort of CPO official warranty and...good luck to the third owner!!

This is the current business model in the premium car space....your average Caddy, Audi, BMW or MB owner is not going to stick around the same car for 5 years....so he/she wants all the latest technical gizmos, the bling and the sexy sheetmetal....who cares about the car developing electronic nightmares years down the road....

I assume that in order to save their reliability advantage, Japanese brands, on average, are currently a bit behind German cars on the technology and electronic gizmo department (for example no FI engines, slower automatic transmission with less gears, etc...)...and this, unfortunately is hurting them.....I repeat again, reliability in the premium car segment does not sell that well anymore.

They arent't...if you take the SUVs out of the picture MB and Mercedes literally crush Lexus in sales.

Its official, your truly an idiot. See ya later bud, you wont be missed and tell your mother i said hello. If you can't take criticism then why are you on the forums?