We Need a 09+ TL SH-AWD for Prototyping a Rear Sway Bar!!!
10-08-2010, 12:41 PM
#1
We Need a 09+ TL SH-AWD for Prototyping a Rear Sway Bar!!!
I can send the manufacturer a factory bar and have a bar produced but I'd like to have someone go there to have it developed on a vehicle. So we are on the last stage of developing this RSB. I need someone in the Charlotte, NC area (must be willing to travel a couple hours) that will donate their car for rear sway bar development. In exchange you will be give a free rear sway bar and free installation. The fabricator will need the vehicle for 2 days and we would like to set it up next week.
Please PM or email me so we can set up a time.
Please PM or email me so we can set up a time.
10-08-2010, 07:11 PM
#2
I can send the manufacturer a factory bar and have a bar produced but I'd like to have someone go there to have it developed on a vehicle. So we are on the last stage of developing this RSB. I need someone in the Charlotte, NC area (must be willing to travel a couple hours) that will donate their car for rear sway bar development. In exchange you will be give a free rear sway bar and free installation. The fabricator will need the vehicle for 2 days and we would like to set it up next week.
Please PM or email me so we can set up a time.
Please PM or email me so we can set up a time.
Last edited by Mr Marco; 10-08-2010 at 07:14 PM.
10-08-2010, 07:31 PM
#3
What would make this product a need to have/upgrade? The 4G TL SH-AWD is very well balanced and offers torque-vectoring rear wheel under-steer correction that will bring the vehicle around to correct the under-steer from the weight of that 3.7. Otherwise you are making a well balanced car over-steer into the curb. How about following up on some BBK's???
The balance of every vehicle can be improved. This car would definitely benefit from a stiffer rear sway bar, just as all the previous generation TL's have. It will reduce body roll and help prevent the vehicle from plowing into the curb.
And, lastly, if all your comments in my threads are going to be negative comments and irrelevant requests, then stay out of my threads. There's plenty of people who are willing to volunteer and enjoy a larger RSB.
10-08-2010, 07:58 PM
#4
Why upgrade the brakes? If you drove one you would understand.They seem to be very well-designed by Acura. Every component of virtually every vehicle can be improved upon.
The balance of every vehicle can be improved. This car would definitely benefit from a stiffer rear sway bar Only if you replaced the front bar as well!, just as all the previous generation TL's have. It will reduce body roll and help prevent the vehicle from plowing into the curb.
And, lastly, if all your comments in my threads are going to be negative comments and irrelevant requests (proof of need is irrelevant?) then stay out of my threads. As a gear head, I respectfully reserve the right to ask "How will this improve preformance on our cars?"There's plenty of people who are willing to volunteer (For an inprovement in preformance) and enjoy a larger RSB.
The balance of every vehicle can be improved. This car would definitely benefit from a stiffer rear sway bar Only if you replaced the front bar as well!, just as all the previous generation TL's have. It will reduce body roll and help prevent the vehicle from plowing into the curb.
And, lastly, if all your comments in my threads are going to be negative comments and irrelevant requests (proof of need is irrelevant?) then stay out of my threads. As a gear head, I respectfully reserve the right to ask "How will this improve preformance on our cars?"There's plenty of people who are willing to volunteer (For an inprovement in preformance) and enjoy a larger RSB.
Holy cow, you yourself know that the entire car must be considered when it comes to suspension components. You can't just put a bigger bar on the back of your car and not expect to put it into the curb and replace your RF wheel/tire. We are talking about a carefully engineered & balanced $45k car from one of the best manufacturers in the business.
10-08-2010, 08:16 PM
#5
Honestly I regret the angry posts I have directed at you. It seems that you genuinely DO offer great products and really try to give us an affordable alternative to Acura’s extremely limited upgrades and dealer performance options. However, you have dropped the ball on the BBK and we are only 1 person short of your request. Please reconsider our BBK needs.
Thanks,
Marco
__________________
Thanks,
Marco
__________________
10-08-2010, 11:45 PM
#6
Racer
I had an aftermarket rear sway bar on my 3g, it was amazing the difference it made in how it kept the rear wheels glued to the ground on a turn, it made the car way more fun to drive, I would imagine that with a stiffer sway bar keeping the rear wheels on the ground through a harder turn, the torque-vectoring would be even more effective.
As for your argument about why Excelerate is working on a sway bar and not the BBK, why do you assume that he's not working on both, he's working on an exhaust right now too. And perhaps the brake company is harder to deal with than a sway bar company, I fail to see any point in attacking someone who is doing far more than most of the people on these board do towards getting as many after market options out to the public.
Do you think that whining to Excelerate about getting on the BBK's is going to help or hurt the situation?
Personally I'm looking forward to putting an aftermarket sway bar on my TL as I think it's probably one of the best investments to making the car more enjoyable to drive. If I didn't live on the other side of the country I would have volunteered for the testing myself.
As for your argument about why Excelerate is working on a sway bar and not the BBK, why do you assume that he's not working on both, he's working on an exhaust right now too. And perhaps the brake company is harder to deal with than a sway bar company, I fail to see any point in attacking someone who is doing far more than most of the people on these board do towards getting as many after market options out to the public.
Do you think that whining to Excelerate about getting on the BBK's is going to help or hurt the situation?
Personally I'm looking forward to putting an aftermarket sway bar on my TL as I think it's probably one of the best investments to making the car more enjoyable to drive. If I didn't live on the other side of the country I would have volunteered for the testing myself.
10-09-2010, 12:28 AM
#7
Team Owner
I had an aftermarket rear sway bar on my 3g, it was amazing the difference it made in how it kept the rear wheels glued to the ground on a turn, it made the car way more fun to drive, I would imagine that with a stiffer sway bar keeping the rear wheels on the ground through a harder turn, the torque-vectoring would be even more effective.
What would make this product a need to have/upgrade? The 4G TL SH-AWD is very well balanced and offers torque-vectoring rear wheel under-steer correction that will bring the vehicle around to correct the under-steer from the weight of that 3.7. Otherwise you are making a well balanced car over-steer into the curb. How about following up on some BBK's???
I've had enough track time to know the electronics will only correct a very small slip angle. If the car is balanced to understeer from the factory which 99% of the cars are, it's going to understeer regardless of electronics. All they can do is try and bring it back under control. Again, the amount of correction offered is minimal and once it begins you're losing ground.
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10-09-2010, 03:26 PM
#8
[quote=maddogtheta;12407185]I had an aftermarket rear sway bar on my 3g, it was amazing the difference it made in how it kept the rear wheels glued to the ground on a turn, it made the car way more fun to drive, I would imagine that with a stiffer sway bar keeping the rear wheels on the ground through a harder turn, the torque-vectoring would be even more effective.
The 3G TL is a different car than the 4G. I could go on about the dynamics of weight and suspension ballance, but you can Google that yourself.
As for your argument about why Excelerate is working on a sway bar and not the BBK, why do you assume that he's not working on both, he's working on an exhaust right now too. And perhaps the brake company is harder to deal with than a sway bar company, I fail to see any point in attacking someone who is doing far more than most of the people on these board do towards getting as many after market options out to the public. A sway bar is more profitable for a middleman like *blank* at XLR8, then BBK.
Do you think that whining to Excelerate about getting on the BBK's is going to help or hurt the situation?
I was bitching, get it right. You are the one who dropped out of the BBK list, not me!
Personally I'm looking forward to putting an aftermarket sway bar on my TL as I think it's probably one of the best investments to making the car more enjoyable to drive. If I didn't live on the other side of the country I would have volunteered for the testing myself. If you took that 4GTL to the track with just a BIG rear sway bar we would be towing you out of the grass. [/quote]
If you want your car to handle like a race car, take out all the bullshit like that NAV, Airbags, Chrome, etc. Get some coil-over’s. Take it to a proper 4 wheel scale. Adjust the springs and balance the weight for each corner. Test drive it. Then do the math and increase the size of both sway-bars accordingly. Don’t make them to big (or you will lift a leg). Test drive it again. ETC. (Along with many consults with experienced engineers) I have read so many ridiculous posts here on AZ in which someone who has little or no experience wants to buy a wheel spacer or sway-bar that they think will make their car drive better (and they will go around the block in your neighborhood faster with a rear bar), however I HAVE wrecked a misbalanced car on the track. I have been to race school. I understand the dynamics of suspension and have consulted an engineer about what would work best for my particular vehicle. Please, save your money.
The 3G TL is a different car than the 4G. I could go on about the dynamics of weight and suspension ballance, but you can Google that yourself.
As for your argument about why Excelerate is working on a sway bar and not the BBK, why do you assume that he's not working on both, he's working on an exhaust right now too. And perhaps the brake company is harder to deal with than a sway bar company, I fail to see any point in attacking someone who is doing far more than most of the people on these board do towards getting as many after market options out to the public. A sway bar is more profitable for a middleman like *blank* at XLR8, then BBK.
Do you think that whining to Excelerate about getting on the BBK's is going to help or hurt the situation?
I was bitching, get it right. You are the one who dropped out of the BBK list, not me!
Personally I'm looking forward to putting an aftermarket sway bar on my TL as I think it's probably one of the best investments to making the car more enjoyable to drive. If I didn't live on the other side of the country I would have volunteered for the testing myself. If you took that 4GTL to the track with just a BIG rear sway bar we would be towing you out of the grass. [/quote]
It does make a big difference on the 3G but it actually does the opposite of what you said. It makes the rear more prone to break free or said another way it makes the front less likely to break free. Or one more way, it brings both ends closer to breaking free at the same time which is ideal.
It's best to have the car as perfectly mechanically balanced as possible before you let the electronic nannies take over. Have you done the math to see if your car is ballanced?
I've had enough track time to know the electronics will only correct a very small slip angle. If the car is balanced to understeer from the factory which 99% of the cars are, it's going to understeer regardless of electronics. All they can do is try and bring it back under control. Again, the amount of correction offered is minimal and once it begins you're losing ground. Are you a professional driver? Have you been instructed in ANY way? Do you understand the dynamics of a vehicle? Most importantly, do you have any evidence to support your claim?
It's best to have the car as perfectly mechanically balanced as possible before you let the electronic nannies take over. Have you done the math to see if your car is ballanced?
I've had enough track time to know the electronics will only correct a very small slip angle. If the car is balanced to understeer from the factory which 99% of the cars are, it's going to understeer regardless of electronics. All they can do is try and bring it back under control. Again, the amount of correction offered is minimal and once it begins you're losing ground. Are you a professional driver? Have you been instructed in ANY way? Do you understand the dynamics of a vehicle? Most importantly, do you have any evidence to support your claim?
Last edited by Mr Marco; 10-09-2010 at 03:28 PM.
10-09-2010, 03:43 PM
#9
Correction; XLR8 in in CT, not GA. I spelled the name wrong while searching the BBB.
10-10-2010, 01:58 PM
#10
Team Owner
[quote=Mr Marco;12407926]
Why so angry? LOL.
In response to the red above, you're making a huge blanket statement. The TL does not come perfectly balanced from the factory. It understeers quite badly. Adding just a rear swaybar will bring that balance closer to neutral.
What you should have said is "adding too large of a rear swaybar will put you in the grass". Your statement would only be true it the TL was perfectly neutral out of the factory.
You do not have to increase the size of both swaybars together as long as you don't go too large on the rear bar. I've done both, a larger front on the soft setting and a larger rear on the firm setting. The car slowed down around that track with that setup vs just a rear swaybar on the soft setting and stock up front. I had to get stiffer rear springs to bring the balance back so stop talking out of your ass like you know something.
Another disadvantage of too large of a front swaybar is on the FWD version you will have much more trouble putting the power down exiting a corner and regardless of which model you will be more prone to locking the inside tires during trail braking.
I would never have called you out but your attitude sucks. You're mistaking corner balance and weight distribution to handling balance (understeer vs oversteer). There's no weighing of the car when determining handling balance. There's getting in the car, getting a feel of the dynamics by driving it in several different scenarios and adding or taking away roll stiffness in one end of the car. There is no math involved.
I've been to the track plenty of times even though I assumed this was common sense to most people. It's well understood in the race world that the car needs to be as balanced as possible before the nannies kick in, whether we're talking understeer/oversteer, brake bias, or whatever. The electronic nannies are only there to try and save your ass. They can't change the handling bias period so they can't make you go faster period.
You'll see where I've argued in the 3G section for a long time at people who install a 24mm RSB and put it on the firm setting when all they have is the 5at 25mm hollow bar up front. The car does oversteer pretty badly. However, those with the larger 6mt and type-S front bars benefit a lot from it. The 5at cars benefit too, but with the bar on the soft setting. Again, no blanket statements that every RSB will make every TL spin out.
I had an aftermarket rear sway bar on my 3g, it was amazing the difference it made in how it kept the rear wheels glued to the ground on a turn, it made the car way more fun to drive, I would imagine that with a stiffer sway bar keeping the rear wheels on the ground through a harder turn, the torque-vectoring would be even more effective.
The 3G TL is a different car than the 4G. I could go on about the dynamics of weight and suspension ballance, but you can Google that yourself.
As for your argument about why Excelerate is working on a sway bar and not the BBK, why do you assume that he's not working on both, he's working on an exhaust right now too. And perhaps the brake company is harder to deal with than a sway bar company, I fail to see any point in attacking someone who is doing far more than most of the people on these board do towards getting as many after market options out to the public. A sway bar is more profitable for a middleman like *blank* at XLR8, then BBK.
Do you think that whining to Excelerate about getting on the BBK's is going to help or hurt the situation?
I was bitching, get it right. You are the one who dropped out of the BBK list, not me!
Personally I'm looking forward to putting an aftermarket sway bar on my TL as I think it's probably one of the best investments to making the car more enjoyable to drive. If I didn't live on the other side of the country I would have volunteered for the testing myself. If you took that 4GTL to the track with just a BIG rear sway bar we would be towing you out of the grass. [/quote]
If you want your car to handle like a race car, take out all the bullshit like that NAV, Airbags, Chrome, etc. Get some coil-over’s. Take it to a proper 4 wheel scale. Adjust the springs and balance the weight for each corner. Test drive it. Then do the math and increase the size of both sway-bars accordingly. Don’t make them to big (or you will lift a leg). Test drive it again. ETC. (Along with many consults with experienced engineers) I have read so many ridiculous posts here on AZ in which someone who has little or no experience wants to buy a wheel spacer or sway-bar that they think will make their car drive better (and they will go around the block in your neighborhood faster with a rear bar), however I HAVE wrecked a misbalanced car on the track. I have been to race school. I understand the dynamics of suspension and have consulted an engineer about what would work best for my particular vehicle. Please, save your money.
The 3G TL is a different car than the 4G. I could go on about the dynamics of weight and suspension ballance, but you can Google that yourself.
As for your argument about why Excelerate is working on a sway bar and not the BBK, why do you assume that he's not working on both, he's working on an exhaust right now too. And perhaps the brake company is harder to deal with than a sway bar company, I fail to see any point in attacking someone who is doing far more than most of the people on these board do towards getting as many after market options out to the public. A sway bar is more profitable for a middleman like *blank* at XLR8, then BBK.
Do you think that whining to Excelerate about getting on the BBK's is going to help or hurt the situation?
I was bitching, get it right. You are the one who dropped out of the BBK list, not me!
Personally I'm looking forward to putting an aftermarket sway bar on my TL as I think it's probably one of the best investments to making the car more enjoyable to drive. If I didn't live on the other side of the country I would have volunteered for the testing myself. If you took that 4GTL to the track with just a BIG rear sway bar we would be towing you out of the grass. [/quote]
If you want your car to handle like a race car, take out all the bullshit like that NAV, Airbags, Chrome, etc. Get some coil-over’s. Take it to a proper 4 wheel scale. Adjust the springs and balance the weight for each corner. Test drive it. Then do the math and increase the size of both sway-bars accordingly. Don’t make them to big (or you will lift a leg). Test drive it again. ETC. (Along with many consults with experienced engineers) I have read so many ridiculous posts here on AZ in which someone who has little or no experience wants to buy a wheel spacer or sway-bar that they think will make their car drive better (and they will go around the block in your neighborhood faster with a rear bar), however I HAVE wrecked a misbalanced car on the track. I have been to race school. I understand the dynamics of suspension and have consulted an engineer about what would work best for my particular vehicle. Please, save your money.
In response to the red above, you're making a huge blanket statement. The TL does not come perfectly balanced from the factory. It understeers quite badly. Adding just a rear swaybar will bring that balance closer to neutral.
What you should have said is "adding too large of a rear swaybar will put you in the grass". Your statement would only be true it the TL was perfectly neutral out of the factory.
You do not have to increase the size of both swaybars together as long as you don't go too large on the rear bar. I've done both, a larger front on the soft setting and a larger rear on the firm setting. The car slowed down around that track with that setup vs just a rear swaybar on the soft setting and stock up front. I had to get stiffer rear springs to bring the balance back so stop talking out of your ass like you know something.
Another disadvantage of too large of a front swaybar is on the FWD version you will have much more trouble putting the power down exiting a corner and regardless of which model you will be more prone to locking the inside tires during trail braking.
I would never have called you out but your attitude sucks. You're mistaking corner balance and weight distribution to handling balance (understeer vs oversteer). There's no weighing of the car when determining handling balance. There's getting in the car, getting a feel of the dynamics by driving it in several different scenarios and adding or taking away roll stiffness in one end of the car. There is no math involved.
I've been to the track plenty of times even though I assumed this was common sense to most people. It's well understood in the race world that the car needs to be as balanced as possible before the nannies kick in, whether we're talking understeer/oversteer, brake bias, or whatever. The electronic nannies are only there to try and save your ass. They can't change the handling bias period so they can't make you go faster period.
You'll see where I've argued in the 3G section for a long time at people who install a 24mm RSB and put it on the firm setting when all they have is the 5at 25mm hollow bar up front. The car does oversteer pretty badly. However, those with the larger 6mt and type-S front bars benefit a lot from it. The 5at cars benefit too, but with the bar on the soft setting. Again, no blanket statements that every RSB will make every TL spin out.
10-10-2010, 03:31 PM
#11
[quote=I hate cars;12409167]
Why so angry? You'll understand in 10 years son. LOL.
In response to the red above,Is Blue better for You? you're making a huge blanket statement. The TL does not come perfectly balanced from the factory. It understeers quite badly. Adding just a rear swaybar will bring that balance closer to neutral.
What you should have said is "adding too large of a rear swaybar will put you in the grass". Your statement would only be true it the TL was perfectly neutral out of the factory.
You do not have to increase the size of both swaybars together as long as you don't go too large on the rear bar. I've done both, a larger front on the soft setting and a larger rear on the firm setting. The car slowed down around that track with that setup vs just a rear swaybar on the soft setting and stock up front. I had to get stiffer rear springs to bring the balance back so stop talking out of your ass like you know something.
Another disadvantage of too large of a front swaybar is on the FWD version you will have much more trouble putting the power down exiting a corner and regardless of which model you will be more prone to locking the inside tires during trail braking.
I would never have called you out but your attitude sucks. I'm not going to be PC on AZ. Why should you care, I could give a shit about you Matt. You're mistaking corner balance and weight distribution to handling balance s Coil-overs & CB is just one place to start. (understeer vs oversteer). There's no weighing of the car when determining handling balance. There's getting in the car, getting a feel of the dynamics by driving it in several different scenarios and adding or taking away roll stiffness in one end of the car. There is no math involved. So someone will just pull a rondom tube of any size off the rack and bend it to fit under the car, strap some links on it, and then drive it. Would you pay $200 for that?
I've been to the track plenty of times even though I assumed this was common sense to most people. It's well understood in the race world that the car needs to be as balanced as possible before the nannies kick in, whether we're talking understeer/oversteer, brake bias, or whatever. The electronic nannies are only there to try and save your ass. They can't change the handling bias period so they can't make you go faster period.
You'll see where I've argued in the 3G (FWD) compleatly different car. section for a long time at people who install a 24mm RSB and put it on the firm setting when all they have is the 5at 25mm hollow bar up front. The car does oversteer pretty badly. However, those with the larger 6mt and type-S front bars benefit a lot from it. The 5at cars benefit too, but with the bar on the soft setting. Again, no blanket statements that every RSB will make every TL spin out.
What track were you driving on? Again, Save your money. I will however, give you a 
for the Grand National, But that could just be a fluke in your case.
Why so angry? You'll understand in 10 years son. LOL.
In response to the red above,Is Blue better for You? you're making a huge blanket statement. The TL does not come perfectly balanced from the factory. It understeers quite badly. Adding just a rear swaybar will bring that balance closer to neutral.
What you should have said is "adding too large of a rear swaybar will put you in the grass". Your statement would only be true it the TL was perfectly neutral out of the factory.
You do not have to increase the size of both swaybars together as long as you don't go too large on the rear bar. I've done both, a larger front on the soft setting and a larger rear on the firm setting. The car slowed down around that track with that setup vs just a rear swaybar on the soft setting and stock up front. I had to get stiffer rear springs to bring the balance back so stop talking out of your ass like you know something.
Another disadvantage of too large of a front swaybar is on the FWD version you will have much more trouble putting the power down exiting a corner and regardless of which model you will be more prone to locking the inside tires during trail braking.
I would never have called you out but your attitude sucks. I'm not going to be PC on AZ. Why should you care, I could give a shit about you Matt. You're mistaking corner balance and weight distribution to handling balance s Coil-overs & CB is just one place to start. (understeer vs oversteer). There's no weighing of the car when determining handling balance. There's getting in the car, getting a feel of the dynamics by driving it in several different scenarios and adding or taking away roll stiffness in one end of the car. There is no math involved. So someone will just pull a rondom tube of any size off the rack and bend it to fit under the car, strap some links on it, and then drive it. Would you pay $200 for that?
I've been to the track plenty of times even though I assumed this was common sense to most people. It's well understood in the race world that the car needs to be as balanced as possible before the nannies kick in, whether we're talking understeer/oversteer, brake bias, or whatever. The electronic nannies are only there to try and save your ass. They can't change the handling bias period so they can't make you go faster period.
You'll see where I've argued in the 3G (FWD) compleatly different car. section for a long time at people who install a 24mm RSB and put it on the firm setting when all they have is the 5at 25mm hollow bar up front. The car does oversteer pretty badly. However, those with the larger 6mt and type-S front bars benefit a lot from it. The 5at cars benefit too, but with the bar on the soft setting. Again, no blanket statements that every RSB will make every TL spin out.
for the Grand National, But that could just be a fluke in your case.
Last edited by Mr Marco; 10-10-2010 at 03:46 PM.
10-10-2010, 04:51 PM
#12
Team Owner
[quote=Mr Marco;12409316]
I've been on Streets and big Willow. There's also an "unofficial" place around here, a subdivision that was never completed 5+ years ago. The streets are there, no houses, no people, in fact it's mostly blocked off. It has every type of corner including some you can hit 120+. It's great for testing suspension and brake mods. I've had some that slowed me down and I've had some that helped. I also have a marked off area for testing braking distances.
For example, the front BBK increased stopping distances but going to a higher mu pad in the rear brought them back into the stock realm and on average it stops a few feet quicker than stock.
As for PC, I could care less. I don't buy into that whole thing and I say what's on my mind even if it offends. However, I try to treat people like people. No need to be excessively confrontational or aggressive, something I had to learn. I try and speak to people on here as if they were standing in front of me.
You took my statement of the color completely wrong. You highlited your responses in red. But I do prefer blue so thanks.
"So someone will just pull a rondom tube of any size off the rack and bend it to fit under the car, strap some links on it, and then drive it. Would you pay $200 for that?"
Nope. I would not. However, the factory got the balance in the ballpark using math. After doing this stuff for a while, you can pretty much take the stock car out on the track and after a good drive you can guess pretty closesly how much bar to add. Next step is trying the bar. If it's too large, reduce the size. It's just a little trial and error. The math will put you in the ballpark but once you're there, there's no substitute for driving the car to fine tune it. I think you're assuming they're just pulling whatever size bar stock they have laying around and selling it for the TL.
"Why so angry? You'll understand in 10 years son. LOL."
I hope not. People say all kinds of retarded things in here. Like feeling a 20hp increase from changing brands of oil, slamming the car on the bumpstops and saying it handles better, installing a CAI and saying it increased the mpg. I roll my eyes all the time but no need to get synical and that's exactly how you're coming off, a pissed off old man.
" Coil-overs & CB is just one place to start."
Sure it is but we're talking rear sway bars which affect handling balance, not weight distribution.
One again, if the car understeers from the factory which pretty much all cars do for safety, adding a little rear bar is going to help. I fully agree that adding too much rear bar is worse than adding none.
"(FWD) compleatly different car"
No, it's not. The 4G is still FWD based and not all 4Gs are AWD. Balance is balance. Your bias goals may be slightly different and the lift throttle, steady state, and exit behavior will be slightly different but reducing understeer will still benefit you.
If the car is setup to understeer, AWD, FWD, or RWD, it's going to understeer when entering a corner and during steady state cornering. They're not *that* different in setup.
For example, the front BBK increased stopping distances but going to a higher mu pad in the rear brought them back into the stock realm and on average it stops a few feet quicker than stock.
As for PC, I could care less. I don't buy into that whole thing and I say what's on my mind even if it offends. However, I try to treat people like people. No need to be excessively confrontational or aggressive, something I had to learn. I try and speak to people on here as if they were standing in front of me.
You took my statement of the color completely wrong. You highlited your responses in red. But I do prefer blue so thanks.
"So someone will just pull a rondom tube of any size off the rack and bend it to fit under the car, strap some links on it, and then drive it. Would you pay $200 for that?"
Nope. I would not. However, the factory got the balance in the ballpark using math. After doing this stuff for a while, you can pretty much take the stock car out on the track and after a good drive you can guess pretty closesly how much bar to add. Next step is trying the bar. If it's too large, reduce the size. It's just a little trial and error. The math will put you in the ballpark but once you're there, there's no substitute for driving the car to fine tune it. I think you're assuming they're just pulling whatever size bar stock they have laying around and selling it for the TL.
"Why so angry? You'll understand in 10 years son. LOL."
I hope not. People say all kinds of retarded things in here. Like feeling a 20hp increase from changing brands of oil, slamming the car on the bumpstops and saying it handles better, installing a CAI and saying it increased the mpg. I roll my eyes all the time but no need to get synical and that's exactly how you're coming off, a pissed off old man.
" Coil-overs & CB is just one place to start."
Sure it is but we're talking rear sway bars which affect handling balance, not weight distribution.
One again, if the car understeers from the factory which pretty much all cars do for safety, adding a little rear bar is going to help. I fully agree that adding too much rear bar is worse than adding none.
"(FWD) compleatly different car"
No, it's not. The 4G is still FWD based and not all 4Gs are AWD. Balance is balance. Your bias goals may be slightly different and the lift throttle, steady state, and exit behavior will be slightly different but reducing understeer will still benefit you.
If the car is setup to understeer, AWD, FWD, or RWD, it's going to understeer when entering a corner and during steady state cornering. They're not *that* different in setup.
10-10-2010, 07:23 PM
#13
[quote=I hate cars;12409381]
I've been on Streets and big Willow. There's also an "unofficial" place around here, a subdivision that was never completed 5+ years ago. The streets are there, no houses, no people, in fact it's mostly blocked off. It has every type of corner including some you can hit 120+. It's great for testing suspension and brake mods. I've had some that slowed me down and I've had some that helped. I also have a marked off area for testing braking distances.
For example, the front BBK increased stopping distances but going to a higher mu pad in the rear brought them back into the stock realm and on average it stops a few feet quicker than stock.
As for PC, I could care less. I don't buy into that whole thing and I say what's on my mind even if it offends. However, I try to treat people like people. No need to be excessively confrontational or aggressive, something I had to learn. I try and speak to people on here as if they were standing in front of me.
You took my statement of the color completely wrong. You highlited your responses in red. But I do prefer blue so thanks.
"So someone will just pull a rondom tube of any size off the rack and bend it to fit under the car, strap some links on it, and then drive it. Would you pay $200 for that?"
Nope. I would not. However, the factory got the balance in the ballpark using math. After doing this stuff for a while, you can pretty much take the stock car out on the track and after a good drive you can guess pretty closesly how much bar to add. Next step is trying the bar. If it's too large, reduce the size. It's just a little trial and error. The math will put you in the ballpark but once you're there, there's no substitute for driving the car to fine tune it. I think you're assuming they're just pulling whatever size bar stock they have laying around and selling it for the TL.
"Why so angry? You'll understand in 10 years son. LOL."
I hope not. People say all kinds of retarded things in here. Like feeling a 20hp increase from changing brands of oil, slamming the car on the bumpstops and saying it handles better, installing a CAI and saying it increased the mpg. I roll my eyes all the time but no need to get synical and that's exactly how you're coming off, a pissed off old man.
" Coil-overs & CB is just one place to start."
Sure it is but we're talking rear sway bars which affect handling balance, not weight distribution.
One again, if the car understeers from the factory which pretty much all cars do for safety, adding a little rear bar is going to help. I fully agree that adding too much rear bar is worse than adding none.
"(FWD) compleatly different car"
No, it's not. The 4G is still FWD based and not all 4Gs are AWD. Balance is balance. Your bias goals may be slightly different and the lift throttle, steady state, and exit behavior will be slightly different but reducing understeer will still benefit you.
If the car is setup to understeer, AWD, FWD, or RWD, it's going to understeer when entering a corner and during steady state cornering. They're not *that* different in setup.
I only got about 1/4 of the way through your responce, so read the rest back to yourself. I'm writing this for a cause, to you it is just entertainment.
I've been on Streets and big Willow. There's also an "unofficial" place around here, a subdivision that was never completed 5+ years ago. The streets are there, no houses, no people, in fact it's mostly blocked off. It has every type of corner including some you can hit 120+. It's great for testing suspension and brake mods. I've had some that slowed me down and I've had some that helped. I also have a marked off area for testing braking distances.
For example, the front BBK increased stopping distances but going to a higher mu pad in the rear brought them back into the stock realm and on average it stops a few feet quicker than stock.
As for PC, I could care less. I don't buy into that whole thing and I say what's on my mind even if it offends. However, I try to treat people like people. No need to be excessively confrontational or aggressive, something I had to learn. I try and speak to people on here as if they were standing in front of me.
You took my statement of the color completely wrong. You highlited your responses in red. But I do prefer blue so thanks.
"So someone will just pull a rondom tube of any size off the rack and bend it to fit under the car, strap some links on it, and then drive it. Would you pay $200 for that?"
Nope. I would not. However, the factory got the balance in the ballpark using math. After doing this stuff for a while, you can pretty much take the stock car out on the track and after a good drive you can guess pretty closesly how much bar to add. Next step is trying the bar. If it's too large, reduce the size. It's just a little trial and error. The math will put you in the ballpark but once you're there, there's no substitute for driving the car to fine tune it. I think you're assuming they're just pulling whatever size bar stock they have laying around and selling it for the TL.
"Why so angry? You'll understand in 10 years son. LOL."
I hope not. People say all kinds of retarded things in here. Like feeling a 20hp increase from changing brands of oil, slamming the car on the bumpstops and saying it handles better, installing a CAI and saying it increased the mpg. I roll my eyes all the time but no need to get synical and that's exactly how you're coming off, a pissed off old man.
" Coil-overs & CB is just one place to start."
Sure it is but we're talking rear sway bars which affect handling balance, not weight distribution.
One again, if the car understeers from the factory which pretty much all cars do for safety, adding a little rear bar is going to help. I fully agree that adding too much rear bar is worse than adding none.
"(FWD) compleatly different car"
No, it's not. The 4G is still FWD based and not all 4Gs are AWD. Balance is balance. Your bias goals may be slightly different and the lift throttle, steady state, and exit behavior will be slightly different but reducing understeer will still benefit you.
If the car is setup to understeer, AWD, FWD, or RWD, it's going to understeer when entering a corner and during steady state cornering. They're not *that* different in setup.
10-10-2010, 07:28 PM
#14
Team Owner
[quote=Mr Marco;12409625]
Poor little guy. So synical. You're posting mis-information, I'm correcting you. I know it hurts but if you continue reading you might learn something.
In reality, you read all of it but you were unable to come up with a response so you wrote a smat ass remark.
In reality, you read all of it but you were unable to come up with a response so you wrote a smat ass remark.
10-10-2010, 07:56 PM
#15
[quote=I hate cars;12409642]
C'mon dude, really? I think in person we would probably just shake and get over it. You are not an expert, and neither am I...we have just posted our best opinions here on AZ to help others who know less than us. (at least that is my plan) IMHO the rear sway bar is a waste of money, in yours, it's a good buy. In reality, neither one of us knows because it doesn’t exist. AND, I’m not a little guy, I’m a Poor Fat guy. 250lbs. 5’10” and earn about $26k a year. SOOO, stop turning this into a bitch-slapping “I know more than you”, fight, because it sounds like we are on the same page, just a different track. (pun intended) I will read your stuff now and hope we can learn from each other.
Last edited by Mr Marco; 10-10-2010 at 07:59 PM.
10-10-2010, 08:15 PM
#16
Team Owner
[quote=Mr Marco;12409696]
C'mon dude, really? I think in person we would probably just shake and get over it. You are not an expert, and neither am I...we have just posted our best opinions here on AZ to help others who know less than us. (at least that is my plan) IMHO the rear sway bar is a waste of money, in yours, it's a good buy. In reality, neither one of us knows because it doesn’t exist. AND, I’m not a little guy, I’m a Poor Fat guy. 250lbs. 5’10” and earn about $26k a year. SOOO, stop turning this into a bitch-slapping “I know more than you”, fight, because it sounds like we are on the same page, just a different track. (pun intended) I will read your stuff now and hope we can learn from each other.
That's fine. But you're obviously not poor and I have to assume not fat either.
C'mon dude, really? I think in person we would probably just shake and get over it. You are not an expert, and neither am I...we have just posted our best opinions here on AZ to help others who know less than us. (at least that is my plan) IMHO the rear sway bar is a waste of money, in yours, it's a good buy. In reality, neither one of us knows because it doesn’t exist. AND, I’m not a little guy, I’m a Poor Fat guy. 250lbs. 5’10” and earn about $26k a year. SOOO, stop turning this into a bitch-slapping “I know more than you”, fight, because it sounds like we are on the same page, just a different track. (pun intended) I will read your stuff now and hope we can learn from each other.
That's fine. But you're obviously not poor and I have to assume not fat either.
10-10-2010, 08:18 PM
#17
10-10-2010, 08:21 PM
#18
Team Owner
10-11-2010, 01:40 PM
#20
Team Owner
10-11-2010, 02:32 PM
#21
Well that was educational! What's up "I Hate Cars" It was good to meet with you Matt!
Well I bought and installed a Progress RSB for around $200...I lost $500 at the friggin Casino during Acurafest. I am loving how my car handles...A bit more confidence on turns knowing the RSB is there...Is it somewhat of a placebo affect?? Who knows...What I learned is I need to stop gambling! Fawk!
Well I bought and installed a Progress RSB for around $200...I lost $500 at the friggin Casino during Acurafest. I am loving how my car handles...A bit more confidence on turns knowing the RSB is there...Is it somewhat of a placebo affect?? Who knows...What I learned is I need to stop gambling! Fawk!
10-11-2010, 02:41 PM
#22
Drifting
Well that was educational! What's up "I Hate Cars" It was good to meet with you Matt!
Well I bought and installed a Progress RSB for around $200...I lost $500 at the friggin Casino during Acurafest. I am loving how my car handles...A bit more confidence on turns knowing the RSB is there...Is it somewhat of a placebo affect?? Who knows...What I learned is I need to stop gambling! Fawk!
Well I bought and installed a Progress RSB for around $200...I lost $500 at the friggin Casino during Acurafest. I am loving how my car handles...A bit more confidence on turns knowing the RSB is there...Is it somewhat of a placebo affect?? Who knows...What I learned is I need to stop gambling! Fawk!
10-11-2010, 07:40 PM
#23
Team Owner
Well that was educational! What's up "I Hate Cars" It was good to meet with you Matt!
Well I bought and installed a Progress RSB for around $200...I lost $500 at the friggin Casino during Acurafest. I am loving how my car handles...A bit more confidence on turns knowing the RSB is there...Is it somewhat of a placebo affect?? Who knows...What I learned is I need to stop gambling! Fawk!
Well I bought and installed a Progress RSB for around $200...I lost $500 at the friggin Casino during Acurafest. I am loving how my car handles...A bit more confidence on turns knowing the RSB is there...Is it somewhat of a placebo affect?? Who knows...What I learned is I need to stop gambling! Fawk!
Your car is definately the best looking 4G out there. I saw you a few times on the freeway and it looks nice in motion too.
10-13-2010, 11:23 AM
#24
So again we need someone to make the prototype. Anyone available?
I need someone in the Charlotte, NC area (must be willing to travel a couple hours) that will donate their car for rear sway bar development. In exchange you will be give a free rear sway bar and free installation. The fabricator will need the vehicle for 2 days and we would like to set it up next week.
Please PM or email me so we can set up a time.
I need someone in the Charlotte, NC area (must be willing to travel a couple hours) that will donate their car for rear sway bar development. In exchange you will be give a free rear sway bar and free installation. The fabricator will need the vehicle for 2 days and we would like to set it up next week.
Please PM or email me so we can set up a time.
10-13-2010, 04:24 PM
#25
Nice meeting you too! I wanted to stay overnight but between my allergies and the one beer I had nearly putting me to sleep I decided to leave early.
Your car is definately the best looking 4G out there. I saw you a few times on the freeway and it looks nice in motion too.
Your car is definately the best looking 4G out there. I saw you a few times on the freeway and it looks nice in motion too.
I heard you had some fatty wide rear tires (assuming you have FWD), I would bet that RSB really helps the increased understeer from having staggered wheels. I'm most curious how it would help on the AWD. IHC is correct that the AWS is FWD biased, and I would bet it has an understeer bias from the factory.
Last edited by 777mycoolangelo; 10-13-2010 at 04:34 PM.
10-21-2010, 01:16 PM
#27
*knock knock* haha, I'm now 4 hours from Raleigh, wouldn't it be funny if I could do this? I literally move to new places that you have fabricators for the new stuff you're selling. Last time I was in Phoenix. Unfortunately, I don't currently have the means to drop off the car and get back to Ft Lee for two days while it's being prototyped.
10-21-2010, 02:19 PM
#28
jeez. lot of bickering in this thread
Yes, the 4G is worlds better in terms of handling then the 3G, and a RSB may not be AS needed for the 4G, but the decreased body roll is always a nice plus
Also, when talking about changing one component affecting all the rest... if you've already lowered your 4G, you've probably upset the harmony of the factory settings already
for $120-$160 (usual expected price) its probably a good investment
what are the specs on the factory AWD RSB? Is it solid or hollow?
Yes, the 4G is worlds better in terms of handling then the 3G, and a RSB may not be AS needed for the 4G, but the decreased body roll is always a nice plus
Also, when talking about changing one component affecting all the rest... if you've already lowered your 4G, you've probably upset the harmony of the factory settings already
for $120-$160 (usual expected price) its probably a good investment
what are the specs on the factory AWD RSB? Is it solid or hollow?
10-21-2010, 02:25 PM
#29
Team Owner
10-21-2010, 03:30 PM
#30
^ touche
08 TL-S pulled .93g and the 4G pulled .92 (.88 on MXM4s)
any other test/info you wish to share? im curious to see what you are talking about
having owned both, i will say there is worlds difference
1. 4G will hold a turn, less body roll, and more "confidence" then the 3G... there is a certain bend on the LIE (495expressway) that with both my 3Gs i would never go over 70mph.... not to say i drive too fast, but in the 4G, i feel very safe taking that curve at 80-85mph
the ONLY thing better about the 3G (IMO) was the steering... 4G has the electric steering, which is smooth and nice.. but very "numb" so to speak... you cant feel the road, and if you were auto-x'ing, the 4G would leave you feeling like you had less control
also, weight balance is more proportioned then 3G... i think 6MT UA7 was 60/40 and the 6MT UA9 is 58/42
08 TL-S pulled .93g and the 4G pulled .92 (.88 on MXM4s)
any other test/info you wish to share? im curious to see what you are talking about
having owned both, i will say there is worlds difference
1. 4G will hold a turn, less body roll, and more "confidence" then the 3G... there is a certain bend on the LIE (495expressway) that with both my 3Gs i would never go over 70mph.... not to say i drive too fast, but in the 4G, i feel very safe taking that curve at 80-85mph
the ONLY thing better about the 3G (IMO) was the steering... 4G has the electric steering, which is smooth and nice.. but very "numb" so to speak... you cant feel the road, and if you were auto-x'ing, the 4G would leave you feeling like you had less control
also, weight balance is more proportioned then 3G... i think 6MT UA7 was 60/40 and the 6MT UA9 is 58/42
10-21-2010, 06:42 PM
#31
Team Owner
^ touche
08 TL-S pulled .93g and the 4G pulled .92 (.88 on MXM4s)
any other test/info you wish to share? im curious to see what you are talking about
having owned both, i will say there is worlds difference
1. 4G will hold a turn, less body roll, and more "confidence" then the 3G... there is a certain bend on the LIE (495expressway) that with both my 3Gs i would never go over 70mph.... not to say i drive too fast, but in the 4G, i feel very safe taking that curve at 80-85mph
the ONLY thing better about the 3G (IMO) was the steering... 4G has the electric steering, which is smooth and nice.. but very "numb" so to speak... you cant feel the road, and if you were auto-x'ing, the 4G would leave you feeling like you had less control
also, weight balance is more proportioned then 3G... i think 6MT UA7 was 60/40 and the 6MT UA9 is 58/42
08 TL-S pulled .93g and the 4G pulled .92 (.88 on MXM4s)
any other test/info you wish to share? im curious to see what you are talking about
having owned both, i will say there is worlds difference
1. 4G will hold a turn, less body roll, and more "confidence" then the 3G... there is a certain bend on the LIE (495expressway) that with both my 3Gs i would never go over 70mph.... not to say i drive too fast, but in the 4G, i feel very safe taking that curve at 80-85mph
the ONLY thing better about the 3G (IMO) was the steering... 4G has the electric steering, which is smooth and nice.. but very "numb" so to speak... you cant feel the road, and if you were auto-x'ing, the 4G would leave you feeling like you had less control
also, weight balance is more proportioned then 3G... i think 6MT UA7 was 60/40 and the 6MT UA9 is 58/42
FWIW mine pulled something like 1.2xGs on the skidpad on the NT05s. It's on here somewhere but I can't remember the exact number. Most of that is due to the tires.
That's good to hear about the weight balance too.
The biggest issue is the weight.
I've got to get off this computer but I'll get into more detail when I get home.
10-28-2010, 09:40 AM
#32
Well I have to commit to have 100 of these produced at a time. If I can't even get one volunteer I'm not sure this project is going to move forward. We're trying to make parts for the TL AWD market but if the interest is not there then we will just eliminate the project.
11-19-2010, 02:33 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
From Acura News
FWD TL:
Stabilizer Bars
Front:1.18-in (30 mm) diameter, solid
Rear: 0.75 in (19 mm) diameter, solid
SH-AWD TL:
Stabilizer Bars
Front: 1.06-in diameter (31 mm), solid
Rear: 0.79-in (20 mm) diameter,
0.18-in (4.5 mm) wall thickness
Looks like while the SH-AWD is 1mm larger then the FWD, it employs a hollow sway bar in the rear.
Pricing on the OEM rear sway bars:
Josh, if I were closer the manufacture would have my car in a heartbeat.
GL
FWD TL:
Stabilizer Bars
Front:1.18-in (30 mm) diameter, solid
Rear: 0.75 in (19 mm) diameter, solid
SH-AWD TL:
Stabilizer Bars
Front: 1.06-in diameter (31 mm), solid
Rear: 0.79-in (20 mm) diameter,
0.18-in (4.5 mm) wall thickness
Looks like while the SH-AWD is 1mm larger then the FWD, it employs a hollow sway bar in the rear.
Pricing on the OEM rear sway bars:
Josh, if I were closer the manufacture would have my car in a heartbeat.
GL
11-23-2010, 09:33 PM
#38
10th Gear
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Diego & Orange County
Age: 39
Posts: 12
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What is a 1" solid bar expected to weigh?! I am all for "increased" levels of handling, but at what cost ($$ and lbs)?Let me know when you need that prototype in SoCal...
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