BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

Well, this is my first beef with my car...

Since I had the car, it has been nothing but flawless, like most of my Acuras..

However, over the past few weeks (understanding the temperature is dropping quickly in NY) the transmission does not feel rock solid anymore, and i am having a lot of issues between 3rd/4th gear

On a flat road, i will accelerate. The car will go through 1st and 2nd and get into 3rd.... ill be driving normally, and ill look down and notice that i am at 4k RPM (In "D" mode, not sport) and the car still hasnt shifted into 4th!!! Almost as if i am climbing a hill

It was once a sporadic thing, but now its more often then not. ESPECIALLY when the car is still a little cold


Now, Acura is known for its transmission problems. On the 2nd Gen TL/CL, we wont even get into that one!!! Wifey has a 2G CL-S and everyday i pray for her transmission (its had the recall done many years ago, and only 70k now)

The 3rd Gen, had a few transmission problems too, only on the 04 Model, and about 50% of the produced TLs that model year

Do we think the 2009 may be in the same boat?? People always say, never buy a brand new car, its 1st year into a model change... but i loved the 4G so much, i couldn't resist


Since the problem is intermittent, when i bring it to the dealer, they are simply just gonna flush the fluid 3x and reset the ECU.... since my car only has 11k, i really didnt want to flush the fluid yet... but i guess thats my only choice for now, and then i can see if it resolved any problems



Anybody else experiencing this? I know i sound like a crazy old lady, but when you drive your car as often as i do (400~500 miles a week) you know how the car feels... and this shifting delay problem, is DEFINITELY a new issue...

chaiwala

Our temps here dont even come close to what you might see in NY but I also had the same problem with my 2009 TL where it would gra onto the 3rd gear a little too long before finally engaging into the 4th gear. It took a good 1500 miles for it to rear its ugly head. Frankly, it some what took the pleasure away from driving that car aggressively. So, I decided to buy 12 quarts of Royal Purple Max Atf and did the 3X3 drain and while at it also changed the front and rear diff to Royal Purple too. After the change, I noticed that the shift points thru all the gears where firm and presice. I have worked on numerous Honda trannys and the first thing apparent is that the Honda ATF is CRAP, plain and simple. I have customers who changed to a synthetic fluid usually Amsoil Universal ATF, Redline D4 ATF or Royal Purple Max ATF and they never had any problems with the tranny which usually got the 3X3 method every 30K miles.

I am not a big fan of Amsoil ATF because I notice the shifts are too firm and it can make city driving pretty choppy. So far my best experience with Royal Purple but Redline D4 is also great. Invest your money in either one and you should solve all your problems.

If you do go this route please let me know how it does as I like to know real life experiences so it gives me more data points and better knowledge about particular engines.

jangkai

I'm at 14k and it happens to me very rarely. It's usually hesistant around 3.5k in 3rd gear. When I gun it a little more, it eventually shifts before 4k but there is a slight jitter.

My bigger concern is that the first gear change from 1 to 2 is very jittery. This is only for the first change when the car has been sitting for 8+hrs or so, regardless of the weather. After that, every gear shift is smooth. This happens to me every time.

dave_ramkumar

iTrader: (5)

my 3g tl has been doin the same thing i took it to the shop it they told me just give the car alot of time to warm up

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

Well, when a car is cold, its gonna always have a few jitters and shakes... regardless of actual air temp, operating temperature is low.... So even in the summer, when you first turn on the car, its gonna act like a different

My case is point, is more apparent when the car is cold, but even after 10-20 miles of driving, i still run into this issue


About the Royal Purple... I hate to be a believer of Urban Legends, but thats one thing that i always bought into, was sticking with Honda ATF-Z1.... something about the way its engineered for Honda transmissions....? I know, by law, the dealer cant void your warranty based on the fluid brand you use.... but does the Z1 really prolong the life of a Honda AT

Kingmeow

Hmm...I'll have to monitor mine more closely but I can't say that I've experienced what you described. It only does this when climbing a hill or when it's really cold. But once warmed up the tranny and shifting is very smooth.

chaiwala

FWIW, I believe the Z1 ATF actually does the opposite. I routinely service Hondas and Acuras and see more tranny problems on Z1 ATF. Of all the Honda trannies that I have changed the Z1 fluid to the 3 I mentioned in my earlier posts, not one has had transmission issues. I am talking about 18 transmissions all paired to a V6 chassie. The oldest one right now has over 300K on the original tranny and the youngest one being mine sits at 900 miles. I just ordered Red Line D4 ATF that is going to be going into a 2009 RL SH-AWD sometime next week. According to the customer he has just over 10K miles on his.

chaiwala

Forgot to say that I also randomly send out samples of motor oil and tranny oil for warranty purposes and many Z1 ATF used oil analysis come back with high wear rates. There are also some that come back with stellar results on Z1 ATF. All the samples I have sent out on the synthetic fluids tend to be more stable and come back looking great. Its a great tool if you ever have a warranty fight. For those wondering, I use Staveley Fluid Services out of Cleveland.

wmahmud

I keep hearing great things about Royal Purple ATF - when would you suggest to change to this in your opinion? I am currently at 11500KM (canadian) on my 09 TL now, don't notice any shifting issues, but since everyone swears by Royal Purple, I would consider flushing and getting this done for long term purposes.

What would your thoughts be? Keep going with what I have if I don't notice any issues? Or make the change over?

YetiTL

same question here! What about Mobil 1?

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

So should i not bother bringing my car in for service? and just 3x flush my tranny with RP ?

chaiwala

You can switch to synthetic fluids any time. I changed my TL's fluid with 32 miles on it. A good reason to do it as soon as possible is because synthetic fluid can dissipate and absorb heat better. Honda Z1 fluid tends to get thicker and brown faster too. Trannies tend to be some what of a sealed unit so its perplexes us as to why it does this. Heat alone should not do it to the extent that we see.

Should you keep going with the Z1 fluid? It depends on how long you are going to keep the car. If you plan to keep the car for more than 60000 miles, I say yes, go for it.

A word of advise though, do not flush your tranny. If there is one transmission in this universe that cries like a baby after it is flushed, its the Honda tranny. It just does not like being flushed and collectively we have come to the conclusion that it has a bit to do with the shorter gear ratios.

chaiwala

I highly recommend doing it yourself. It will take you at most 2-3 hours and you will know that the job is done right.

My recommendation is to drain and fill 3 times. Each time you drain and fill, take the car for a drive and make sure you go thru all the gears at least 3 times.

If people are interested these are the capacities in the TL

ATF: 8.2qts(I use 9qts)ATF
Differential(front): 3 quarts ATF(AWD only)
Transfer Case(Rear diff): 1 pint 75w90 gear fluid(AWD only)
Motor Oil: 4.6qts(I use 5qts)

Kingmeow

I haven't really crawled under the car yet (garage floor pretty mucked up with all the snow/mud) but do you need ramps to do this. Or is the drain plug close to the edge of the car?

chaiwala

you will need ramps. the plug is in the middle.

wmahmud

Sorry its a noob question, so follow this;

-Drain the current Honda ATF
-Fill RP and put the plug back - go for a drive making sure all gears are hit
-Come back and pull plug, drain, and refill again, and go for a drive again
-Come back a third time, pull plug, drain, and refill again, go for a drive and that should be good to go and leave it at that

Is this something anyone can do simply at home?

chaiwala

^^yes this is correct. Yes you can do this at home and is easier than doing an oil change since there is no filter involved. You will need a ratchet extension and a long neck funnel to reach the ATF fill plug.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

Just came back from a 100 mile round trip, my transmission is really pissing me off.... i just doesnt go into 4th gear very easily... its always a struggle

Even when i take my foot off the gas a little, to help it ease into shifting, as soon as i re-apply the throttle, the car kicks back up to 4k rpm in 3rd gear @ like 40-50 mph

BigWopHH

Damn, that sucks.

Is there any chance this could be a problem related to the computer / ECU and a reset may help?

I only ask because a friend of mine with a Maxima was having a similar issue where the car would hold onto a gear for too long (don't remember which gear), and there was a procedure a tech at the dealership showed him to "reset" the tranny (for lack of a better word), that actually solved the problem. He had to do something like hold both paddle shifters, with the car in par, in accessory more--or something like that.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

actually, i'm pretty sure if i brought the car to Acura, they would reset the ECU first. then maybe drain/flush

ECU reset could possibly be it... i havent disconnected the battery since my Takeda install in September.. so why would it be doing this problem only now?

George Knighton

The way that I'm looking at this, it might be possible for a less informed reader to believe that the transfer case and the rear differential are the same thing.

They're two different housing that take two different fluids.

chaiwala

Rear Differential and Transfer case are one and the same. Acura chooses to call it the transfer case but its most commonly known as the rear differential.

George Knighton

Interesting. Maybe the 6-6 is different.

In the owners manual for my 6-6 TL SH-AWD, it refers to the transfer case taking hypoid oil and to the rear LSD requiring ATF.

When you factor in the front differential that requires MTF, that's three different kinds of gear oil required on one car.

chaiwala

^^Actually you are right. I just checked my computer, the rear diff which Acura calls the transfer case uses ATF and the front differential uses the manual 75w90 gear oil. Thanks for clarifying that.

So:-
Front Differential uses 1 pint 75w90 gear oil
Rear Differential uses 3 quarts of ATF

Thanks GK

George Knighton

And in this case when you say "front differential" you mean the transfer case ahead of the rear differential.

The manual gearbox (with its attached differential) would need Honda/Acura MTF+F, which is a total of three different kinds of gear oil in one car.

A little odd.

But it sure works well!

wmahmud

If I happen to make the change to RP - and have any issues down the road, is my warranty then in question for using this fluid at all?

George Knighton

Lest we think we're looking at another fairly widespread automatic transmission problem, I'll point out that the preliminary surveys being returned to Consumer Reports seems to indicate that owners of the 2009 TL with five speed automatic are experiencing even better service than the 2008 automatics, the last year of the 3G.

In case that helps allay anybody's fears. :-) I know it's still early and the 2009 cars don't have that many miles on them, but they've got enough reports back to rate the 2009 automatic as much better than average.

chaiwala

Unfortunately it is even though you used a better fluid. Honda seems to be the strictest of all mfg's out there. What you should do is get the fluid replaced by a 3rd party, be it a transmission place or an independant garage. This way they won't know that the fluid was changed out unless they have it tested which Honda/Acura doesn't really do.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

Is Honda ATF Z1 a similar color to the RP or other brands?

Also, ill have to dig it up... I believe i read it on this board, that a Car Manufacturer cant void a warranty because you use a different brand of oil or fluid. They can only raise questions if you use the wrong type (i.e, 10W-40 in a 5W-20 car)


I dont want to cry "wide-spread" problem at all... Its just, kind of a "pattern" of Honda/Acura V6 Transmissions when they are first released.

The 98-02 Honda AV6 had transmission problems, mostly found in the first years, 98-00

Acura CL/TL 99-03. Problems throughout the whole production

Acura TL 04 - 08. Problems mostly isolated to the 1st 50% of 2004 Models


One thing, and this was my only gripe, EVER, with Rallye Acura

When i took delivery of my SH-AWD, the car had about 44 miles on it. I found out, the dealer located my desired color combination at an Acura Dealer in Staten Island... so the car was driven, or "swapped" as they call it, to Rallye... Which is about a 35 mile drive.


I was going to voice my concerns, but i figured, these people drive Acuras all day, so they have no need to "drive it like they stole it"

But still, i dont know how the car was treated for the first 40 miles. And if somebody decided to go WOT, that might be part of my problem

BigWopHH

Just wanted to share an e-mail convesation I had with the folks at Royal Purple regarding performance, warranties, etc. I wrote them twice and go two responses.

Here are my e-mails, and RP's responses, word for word...

"I was hoping someone there could clear up some confusion with regard to your transmission fluid and diff lube. Please see here:

https://acurazine.com/forums/4g-tl-2009-2014-123/royal-purple-gear-fluids-749576/

I had some transmission trouble with a previous Acura and am looking to prolong the life of my newest car as much as possible, which is why I'm interested in your products. The post above is actually the third of its kind that I've found, with users claiming increased performance by switching to Royal Purple products.

However, all of the conversations have also included comments that claim Honda / Acura transmissions MUST use Honda ATF.

I see on your website that Royal Purple Max ATX can reportedly be used as a replacement to Honda ATF-Z1, but want to be certain they are compatible because many Honda and Acura enthusiasts claim that using anything other than Honda ATF will damage the transmission.

Can Royal Purple Max ATF be used in Honda / Acura automatic transmissions?

If so, will using Royal Purple void my warranty?

Any insight into my questions would be greatly appreciated."

First Response:
"Interesting thread and as you have seen, the topic (for this and other ‘aftermarket’ fluids) is a popular discussion. The Magnuson-Moss Act does prevent the manufacturers and retailers from requiring a specific (usually private label) fluid for warranty compliance, as long as the replacement fluid meets certain performance criteria. Royal Purple Max ATF meets and exceeds the performance requirements for Honda ATF-Z1, and we whole-heartedly recommend Max ATF as a replacement fluid for all vehicles that specify Honda ATF-Z1. Max ATF will not void your warranty. Please note on the attached Max ATF product data sheet that we specifically name applications that are not recommended nor warranty compliant.

Let me know if you need any other info. Thanks for choosing Royal Purple and have a great day."

I wrote back again...
"Thank you very much for the quick response, I really appreciate it.

I wondering if there was any more detail you could provide on this subject? Do you have any comparison data between Max ATF and Honda ATF-Z1, with regard to the performance criteria you mentioned? Or do you have any internal testing data that you could share comparing the performance and / or longevity of Max ATF versus Honda ATF-Z1?"

Second Response: (a few days had gone by)
"I apologize for the delay, if you had not received a response by our department. I was out of town, and likely your email was sitting solely in my Inbox. Now, to you question. Honda and the Japanese manufacturers are generally relatively tight with their manufacturers specifications for lubricants. We do not have comparison data between the two fluids. Our additive supplier, however, states that the product they supply to Royal Purple meets the performance requirements of the Honda spec and, in addition to that, we utilize an outstanding base oil, both of which contribute to lower friction, and therefore lower heat and longer life for your transmission. At this time we do not have internal data available to distribute to the public."

Just some more info to chew on.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

Magnuson-Moss... that was the document that stated they cant void your warranty when using different branded fluids... I know i read that somewhere...

bw5556

Same here, though I actually haven't thought much of it. The 5-AT in my Accord behaved the same way it even did the same jerking motion that my TL does when the car finally shifts into 4th. I went back and forth on the 4G because of the 5-AT (it was my biggest gripe with the Accord). I love manuals but they're a pain in LA so waiting on the 6-MT wasn't an option for me. I asked my salesman if a 6-AT was coming for the 2010MY. He said no and talked about how good the 5-AT was. He went on to say that I should know how smooth the 5-AT was since I'd been driving a car with one for the past couple of years.

I was out of town for the past 10 days visiting family and have been driving their vehicles (Honda, Toyota, GM, MB, Scion, Nissan). I got home last night and spent today running errands; I noticed the 3 to 4 shift on my first trip but didn't notice it again at all today. Either I've adapted to the transmission and my motor memory took over to workaround the hesitation or the transmission only hesitated once. I walk to work so it'll be several days until I drive again but I'm going to pay close attention to it on my next drive.

macieks

Actually it is not the same, but principle is similar. Transfer case is in vehicles with 4 wheel drive to proportion axles between rear and front for different surface/conditions.

Differential is used to compensate distance difference for ourtside and inside wheel (when car goes into bend they do not have the same distance to travel as they move on different radiuses).


Acura HAS differential regardless how Honda/Acura choses to call it (even incorrectly from engineering standpoint), but it does not have transfer case as it is not four wheel drive (well except new generation of cars where they offer four wheel drive).

chaiwala

Blackura:- Yes the article is the Magnusson-Moss Act and what it does is protect the consumers from the manufacturer requiring and not recommending OEM fluids. What it does is requires dealers and mfg's to provide the fluids for FREE if they refuse to use your product by citing that the mfg requires OEM fluids. It protects the consumers from being price gouged by holding us at ransom at their will. This is why the manuals always say that OEM fluids are RECOMMENDED and not REQUIRED.

Now using an aftermarket fluid will NEVER void your warranty if it is spec'd for your vehicle. However if there was a failure then the mfg. can finger point and claim that your use of aftermarket fluid most likely caused the failure. Its a double standard but there is no way around it.

After reading BigWopHH post about RP, I realized, if I am not mistaken that RP has their own warranty and you might want to look into it. I am not sure what it may be but their website may provide that information.

As to the color, all tranny fluids usually are burgundy red when new and become darker as they age. Royal Purple, even though their motor oils are purple in color, the dye they use to color it burns away in the first two hundered miles and turn into a regular amber brown. Their ATF though is the same burgundy color like all other major ATF fluids.

Most people don't know this but motor oil is actually clear liquid like water and the additives that are added plus the dye is what makes it amber brown. This aids people who have to pull the dipstick to check their oil levels. Same is true for tranny fluid.

About someone else driving your car for the first 35 miles, thats okay it won't do much damage even if he/she drove it like they stole it. Tranny fluids don't have many friction modifiers while aids the gears to catch each other, which is why it takes a long long time to a tranny to go south on you.

Macieks: I agree with you, they are different but Acura/Honda likes to lump it together while every other manufacturer I have dealt with does not. Never looked into it but it may have to do with how its put together.

George Knighton

I am sure you know what you're talking about, but the owners manual and the repair manual both refer to the transfer case, and it is a gear driven device to multiply torque going to the rear wheels.

Since you're into this, though, I've got a weird question.

What is the difference between the old RL's (the RL design last sold in the 2008 model year) acceleration device and the new TL's transfer case?

Is it the same thing?

Ichishima used to brag about the Legend/RL acceleration device ahead of the rear differential giving his car an edge in acceleration. Does this former advantage now disappear with the new TL's having the transfer case?

Does the old RL/Legend have an acceleration device and a transfer case?

chaiwala

Yes, Ichhishima is correct, the RL's acceleration device is only available in the RL while the simpler version of AWD is available in the RDX, MDX and TL. In the RL, during cornering, the output shaft(to the rear diff) spins something like 5%(IIRC) or more faster than the input shaft(engine) which lets the rear wheels spin faster hence the edge in acceleration.

In the simpler SH-AWD, found in the MDX, RDX and TL the rear wheels overdrive at a constant rate of 1.5%(not sure but its a low number) in respect to the front wheels.

Yes, Acura does use the word differential in the manual but they interchange the word with transfer case in their model lineup. Atleast it was true in 2009.

Majofo

Transfer case is literally the gear spline from the front diff to the rear diff. & to George.. the MDX is recommended Z1 for the AT, gear oil for the TC & VTM4 for the RD. Honda is very particular with the different FM's they use on their gear assemblies.

Blackura.. does 4th gear upshift if you let off the throttle? Very strange that the 4th gear is slipping.. There has to be an issue with the shift management / hydraulic pressure.. maybe the pressure switch. How about downshifting, any issues?

George Knighton

Well. If I wasn't confused before, I am now!!

chaiwala

Amsoil.com

Here is what is listed for 2009 Acura TL SH-AWD
2009 ACURA TL 3.7L 6-cyl Engine Code J37A4 LUBRICANTS & FLUIDS: </I>Engine Oil
Grade 1......API*
100% Synthetic 0W-20 Motor Oil (ASMQT)
XL 5W-20 Synthetic Motor Oil (XLMQT)
Signature Series 0W-30 100% Synthetic Motor Oil (SSOQT)
All TEMPS......5W-20
Automatic Transmission,BK4A......SLF [1]
Synthetic Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATFQT)
Differential, Rear......SLF [1]
ALL TEMPS......
Synthetic Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATFQT)
Transfer Case,......GL-4
Above 0F......90
Synthetic Manual Transmission and Transaxle Gear Lube (75W-90) API GL-4 (MTGQT)
Transfer Case,......GL-5
Above 0F......90
SAE 80W-90 Synthetic Gear Lube (AGLQT)
SEVERE GEAR 75W-90 Synthetic EP Lubricant (SVGQT)
75W-90 Synthetic Long Life Gear Lube (FGRQT)
Transfer Case,......GL-4
Below 0F......80W-90
Synthetic Manual Transmission and Transaxle Gear Lube (75W-90) API GL-4 (MTGQT)
Transfer Case,......GL-5
Below 0F......80W-90
SAE 80W-90 Synthetic Gear Lube (AGLQT)
SEVERE GEAR 75W-90 Synthetic EP Lubricant (SVGQT)
75W-90 Synthetic Long Life Gear Lube (FGRQT)
Fluids
Brake Fluid......HB
AMSOIL Brake Fluid DOT-3 (BF3SN)
Clutch Fluid......
[1] Honda ATF-Z1 Automatic Transmission Fluid, Part no.
08200-9001 or equivalent

FILTERS: Oil FilterAbsolute Efficiency Oil Filter (EAO13) Oil FilterWIX 51356 Oil Filter Air FilterWIX 49041 Air Filter Cabin Air FilterWIX 24815 Cabin Air Filter Fuel FilterTransmission Filter

NGK PLUGS AND WIRESETS: No Recommendations

WIPER BLADES: Blade ClassDriverPassengerExactFitT261 T191 NeoFormT16260 T16190 WinterT37260 T37190

CHASSIS LUBRICATION: 0 Fittings, 0 Plugs

CAPACITIES: Engine, with filter..........4.6 quarts
Cooling System, Initial Fill..........6.7 quarts
AMSOIL Antifreeze and Engine Coolant
Automatic Transmission, BK4A Initial Fill..........3 quarts
Automatic Transmission, Total Fill
5 speed BK4A..........8.2 quarts
Differential, Rear..........5.3 pints
Transfer Case, ..........0.9 pints

TORQUES: Oil Drain Plug.....29 ft/lbs
Transfer Case
Fill Plug 33 ft/lbs
Drain Plug 33 ft/lbs

chaiwala

Right, but they choose to call the front differential the transfer case even though it is not. Only Honda is known for doing this, was my point. I am just going to leave it at that....lol.