sdginz

I have a 2010 TL SH AWD with 17K miles. Half way home yesterday the car just died on me. Would not restart. Electrical system seems fine, but seems to be fuel delivery issue.

Had to have the car towed to neares Acura dealer. The dealer has had the car for a day and still has no idea what is wrong! Unreal. They cannot get the car to start. They tell me the connected their diagonostic computer to it and they are getting no error codes. They also contacted Acura and they were no help. What kind of confidence does this instill?

Anyone else experience anything like this?

Btw, my last gas fill up was at Costco, I use premium fuel for the most part.

Their next "guess" is to replace the fuel injectors. Guess work on a $43,000 car with 17,000 miles, c'mon Acura. Thats ridiculous!

potmilkz

did you recently install some parts on the car? HID FOGS? LED BULBS, ETC?

sdginz

No I did not. It's like the fuel line is getting choked. Certainly does not instill long term reliability confidence.

sdginz

Update as of yesterday. They have been able to get the car to run by bypassing the fuel system, in other words by spraying fuel directly into the intake. But it won't stay running. I am being told that they are going to try to swap out the ECU on the engine with another 2010 vehicle which they don't have. The dealership won't hear back from Acura until Monday and may not get that part until mid week.

It seems like this is moving at a snails pace. All the work that is being done is supposedly being dictated by some central technical area of Acura. It seems to me like there should be a much easie and faster way to diagnose this problem.

They have also discussed replacing the fuel injectors. Remember this car only has 17,000 miles!!!

No one here has experienced anything like this?

Qwikhas

Weird that you posted this after i just saw a news report about people getting bad gas from a Costco somewhere and had to have major repairs done to fix their cars. I cant seem to find the story but i know i saw it this past friday.

sdginz

I found the story you were talking about.

Here is the link http://www.app.com/article/20111026/...ostco-Stafford

Looks like its in Stafford Township NJ. Interesting though that it only affected Honda cars. Seems like there is something in Costco gas that is deadly for our Honda and Acura engines.

Check this out, this must be what you saw.

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/video...lems/132751993

Qwikhas

Yep, thats it.

sdginz

Update as of today, they had to order a new ECU for the car and will be installing that tomorrow to see if they can get the engine to run.

I cant believe that I am only one on this board that experienced any like this. I also cant believe that a computer would fail so early into a cars life.

Any input is appreciated.

potmilkz

it can be only a simple ground that can cause this..

maybe a wire is loose..

i know from first hand because when i installed my relay for my HID fogs.. i didnt tighten down one of the STOCK grounds that i have taken apart to to look my relay ground too.. and car just shuts off when im driving over a bump..

sdginz

My car has been sitting at a dealer for 4 days, I would hope by now they would be able to determine that at least but who knows.

What I have discovered is that these cars have become way too complicated for their own good.

mightl

sorry to hear that. so I guess the question is, where do you typically fill up your gas?

potmilkz

either that or you just got a really good lemon.

sdginz

Well I did frequent Costco, however that sounds like its going to change.

I have thought about the lemon also. Too bad the lemon laws are really hard to prove.

englishtony2002

Ok this sounds a little nuts but it might be leading somewhere. Did you experience a cold night, i.e. frosty etc after you filled up at Costco? Did the car break down the following morning?

Honest - this is possibly important and not a joke.

sdginz

I live in Illinois like you. There was rain but not really that cold. I know that this time of year they do switch over to a different blend of gasoline. That may or may not have anything to do with the issue.

englishtony2002

So here is the possible explanation. I work in the fuel industry, check the nozzle you use next time you fill up, if it says OPW that is is one of ours.

We are all aware that the gas pump these days carries a sticker that states "Contains up to 10% Ethanol". Ethanol was introduced as a fuel oxygenate (helps complete combustion to occur and produces cleaner exhaust) several years ago. It replaced a chemical called MTBE that was used for the same purpose, MTBE killed fish and did not help goverment subsidy programs (the corn belt).

Anyway back to the story, Ethanol when mixed with "dry" gasoline stays in suspension, like sugar dissolved in water. This is the normal state of affairs providing that no water is introduced into the storage tank (or your car gas tank). So remember the storage tank contains a mixture of 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol unnder normal "dry' conditions.

Now if a very small amount of water enter the underground storage tank through rainfall runoff, snowmelt etc. (you said it was wet right?) through damaged seals etc. a whole new scenario can develop. The Ethanol in the fuel mixture is hydrophyllic (the same way that brake fluid behaves when exposed to water) and attracts the water as it enters the storage tank. After a few gallons of water enter the storage tank a complete and total change can occur to the entire contents of the storage tank.

Something called ethanol separation occurs. When this happens the fuel separates back into it constituent parts, 90% gasoline and something called aqueous ethanol (a mixture of ethanol and water). Now the tank has several inches of aqueous ethanol at the bottom, the rest is "out of spec" gasoline, i.e. gasoline that contains no oxygenate and will not combust correctly.

The question about the cold is relevant because fuel that is "wet" at 60F may separate at 40F, this is because the separation process is also dependent upon temperature.

Now enough of the chemistry and physics lesson and back to your car problem. You may have taken fuel that has partially or fully separated as a result of this and that is what has got into your fuel system and components. Aqueous Ethanol will not combust and "raw" unoxygenated gasoline will not combust correctly.

Maybe, just maybe, Honda engines are more sensitive to this phenomenon.

Anyway that is my input on what "might" have happened and maybe your dealership is not aware of it.

Hope it works out quickly for you and you get your ride back soon.

englishtony2002

Courtesy of Scott Irwin
Did you know? In a 10% Ethanol Blend, it takes as little as 18 gallons of water in a 6,000 gallon tanks to cause Phase Separation. In a 2% blend it takes only 3.6 gallons to cause Phase Separation
What is ?phase separation?, and how do I deal with it?
If significant amounts of water are present in a fuel tank with gasoline that contains ethanol, the water will be drawn into the fuel until the saturation point is reached for the three-component mixture of water + gasoline + ethanol. Beyond this level of water, phase separation could cause most of the ethanol and water to separate from the bulk fuel and drop to the bottom of the tank, leaving gasoline with a significantly reduced level of ethanol in the upper phase. If the lower phase of water and ethanol is large enough to reach the fuel inlet, it could be pumped directly to the engine and cause significant problems. Even if the ethanol water phase at the bottom of the tank is not drawn into the fuel inlet, the reduced ethanol level of the fuel reduces the octane rating by as much as 3 octane numbers, which could result in engine problems.

The level at which phase separation can occur is determined by a number of variables, including the amount of ethanol, the composition of the fuel, the temperature of the environment and the presence of contaminants. It is very important (A) that the system is inspected for significant quantities of water in the tank before using gasoline with ethanol and (B) to limit exposure of the fuel tank to excess water. If phase separation has occurred, it is necessary to completely remove all free water from the system and replace the fuel before continuing operation. Otherwise, engine problems could occur.

sdginz

Thanks for posting that info. And while some of that is beyond my limited science comprehension, it does seems reasonable.

What doesnt seem reasonable is that the dealer cannot determine this.

I have contacted the station where I got the gas (Costco) and have been told that they have had no other complaints. If there was any water in the gas, then it should have have affected everyone filling up that day, at least those who drive Hondas, right? Unless there was only water at the end of the tank when I filled up.

Regardless, hopefully they can get they issue solved without replacing too many engine parts.

englishtony2002

Only other point is that your own gas tank may have had a small amount of water get in (think about it - 18 gallons in 6000 causes a problem), that means just 0.05 of a gallon or half a 12oz beer bottle of water in a tank can cause this problem - possible right ?

Same thing only on a much smaller scale.

sdginz

Thanks Tony. As of yesterday they finally have been able to get my car to run by bypassing the fuel system. I am supposed to get it back later today once they have been able to test it more. They are saying there was something wrong with the gas in my car. They drained the fuel tank, refueled the car and also replaced the fuel injectors. This is what I thought was the culprit all along.

My question is if it really was the fuel, then how could it only have affected my car? I have contacted Costco and they are telling me they have had no other complaints. In addition, I used 1/2 tank of that gas before my engine stalled. The stories that I have heard about tainted gas usually result in cars sputtering away from the gas stations.

Could it be that consistent exposure to a particular additive in their gas finally clogged up the injectors to the point that they all failed? If thats true then no Honda or Acura owners should be buying gas there.

Oswald Vater

Just a thought: I'm assuming Acura is covering the cost of your repair? It seems to me that your getting bad gas isn't directly related to an Acura issue so if they are doing so they are going beyond the call of duty. Good news for all us owners to know!

Mr Marco

Last fuel issue I had cost me $2,000. Remove tank, clean & replace, R&R fuel distributor & injectors. I think the ex-girl put something in the tank. It's next to impossible to tell what the issue could be.

englishtony2002

Marco - if she manged to pee in the tank perhaps she was a keeper !

sdginz

They have determined that the cause of the problem was contaminated fuel. They state that the fuel injectors were swollen and there was sediment leaking from them. They were replaced along with the cars ECU.

Fortunately, Acura did the work for me as a one time goodwill, which saved me a pretty penny.

In the end the issue still remains that NO ONE SHOULD BUY GAS @ COSTCO!

At $3.00 per fill up savings it would take me a long time to make up for the costs I would have incurred today. Lesson learned!

potmilkz

lol if "SHE" managed to pee in a tank.. than i would question her sexuality..

kens TL

I live in the Chicago area and when I purchased my 2009 TL in August of 2009 there was a notice on the salesman's desk not to purchase gas at Costco. I don't remember the exact reasons why but I have never purchased gas there.

TinyRK

Hmmm...
I usually get gas from Costco.

If they fuck up my TL I will sue the shit out of them, which would complete my American Dream.
The only thing left then would be to become a Millionaire.

Duh duh Duuuuuuhhhh! Hupy and Abrahams.... Duh duh Duuuuuuhhhh!

sdginz

Based on my experience I would stop buying gas there ASAP!

Whether it was the one tank of gas I got or there repeated exposure to their gas I am not sure, but it caused thousands of dollars in damage.

Also, you will have a difficult time proving that in a court of law.

Youre better off just staying away and telling all your friends to do the same.

Kahta

What kind of issue could this cause? my car is now at the dealer for this reason.