prepreludesh

I'll address this in another thread, but my 2010 6MT's clutch is beginning to slip. I only have 70,000 miles on the odometer. Regardless of how I've got to this point, I'm considerably pissed at how poorly the factory clutch has held up. When I eventually have to get a new clutch, I don't want my options to be limited to OEM. However, I looked up SPEC clutches and found that they actually have a replacement in many different stages!

But the only problem is that I'm having a hard time trusting they actually sell one for our application because the engine is mislabeled as being for the "3.5L" engine. Does anyone know of anyone who has an aftermarket clutch in their 2010+ TL? If so, what brand did they use?

Also, has anyone else noticed premature wear?

Unfortunately, I'm at 70,100 miles, so trying to fight for my powertrain warranty coverage to cover it is now out of the question I would assume.

Here are the options:
http://www.lmperformance.com/125411/.html

TheOMan

Just curious - how are you noticing that it's starting to slip? I haven't noticed any issues with mine. It's a 2012 though with considerably less miles (kilometres).

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^there are a few "test" that you can preform, but are hard on the clutch.

and usually, it'll start to slip in higher gears first.
5 and 6th gear, when you press the gas pedal, RPMs will rise but speed will stay the same.

ucf_bronco

iTrader: (1)

I can't help but think the clutch delay valve has played a role in your issue. Are you planning to remove it when you install the new clutch? Or have you already?

Also, I highly doubt you'll be able to get it replaced under warranty because it's considered a "wear and tear" part.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

these cars are one of the hardest cars to figure out the clutch...
i mastered a 2010 challenger SRT in a day. a day.
it took me at least 3 months to get my shifts down in the TL....and I'm still not perfect to this day.

jim_c

What is the clutch delay valve? I have never heard of this.
How does it function?

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^the clutch slave cylinder houses it.
its just a little valve that restricts fluid to protect the drive train from harsh and aggressive shifts.

you can remove this simple, small valve from the slave cylinder, and will allow full travel of the clutch fluid, thus making shifting easier and "more traditional"

ucf_bronco

iTrader: (1)

Correct me if I'm wrong justn, but it also slows down the engaging and disengaging of the clutch...which is what can lead to premature failure.

I agree! I still have jerky shifts from time to time.

Edward'TLS

Does it mean that, without the delay valve, the car can have even faster acceleration times due to zero delay in clutch engagements/disengagements ?

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

its a little delay valve. maybe an inch long.less than half an inch wide.
i dont think you're going to shave your 0-60 times, however, clutch feel is improved.

1st to 2nd gear is greatly improved. with not so jerky shifts.
you still need to pay attention to engagement point, tho.

PeterPort

I so agree, and I have been driving manuals for decades.

prepreludesh

Actually you have it in reverse, it is more noticable in 6th gear when you stomp on the gas and the RPMs rise a couple hundred and then slip back a couple hundred RPMs and just kind of flutter for about 10-15 seconds before finally, slowly, increase. The speed is increasing during this time, but slowly. I have also noticed this in 5th gear as well, but not as much.

I know for these past 70,000 miles, I haven't been a saint with the clutch, but I wouldn't call my driving habits "abusive" either. I can probably recall 3 times in all of these years that I've noticed that burnt clutch smell after parking back at home. And it wasn't like I was constantly burning it for miles, it was usually one hard and fast canonball run that got me into trouble. In light of that, I still don't think that those instances would be enough to wear out the clutch this much, but I guess I'm wrong. Or the clutch sucks, take your pick.

jim_c

Do you have free play in the clutch pedal at the top of its travel?
You must have a few centimetres - maybe an inch or so - of travel so that when you push on the pedal, nothing happens right away. This is so the system - pressure plate and friction disc - will be fully engaged under normal conditions. The clutch does not start to disengage until the free play is taken up. Sometimes drag cars are set up differently but a street car should always have clutch pedal free play. If you drive for a long time with no free play you can wear the clutch or glaze it so that it will start to slip.

prepreludesh

I inquired to SPEC clutches about their applications for our car. Here is a copy/paste of the conversation I got. This may provide you with some new information you might not have known:

I own a 2010 Acura TL SH-AWD w/ a 6 speed manual
transmission. I'm currently at 70,000 miles and my
clutch is beginning to slip in 5th and 6th gears. My car
sees no track time, but I would classify myself as an
aggressive street driver. I am looking for advice on a
clutch from your company that would accompany my style of
driving and needs: My driving habits are mainly highway
driving, but I find myself downshifting from 6th gear to 3rd
to do quick passes. I also want the ability to do the
occasional clutch dump at a stop light, but I am finding
that holding the tach at 4k RPMs and dropping it will
quickly burn the clutch. This is probably why I'm at the
point of needing a clutch replaced so soon. After looking at
your website, I believe that a Stage 2 or 2+ would most
likely give me the life and durability I need, but would
like your advice and perhaps the hidden pros and cons of
each one. Thank you for your time.

P.S. On your website, you list the 2009 and 2010 TL as having a 3.5L engine. However, 2009 was the year of the redesign and no manual transmission was offered. 2010 was the first year that the manual transmission was offered, but only with the 3.7L V6 with AWD. Since then, the same engine/transmission option was offered up until the 2013 model year. I don't know if your website truly does have clutch replacements for 2010+ TL's, or if it was improperly listed because the dates span across 3 generations (the very last year of the second generation, all of the 3rd generation, and two out of five years of the fourth generation). I hope maybe this info can help you make your website more accurate!

SPEC's response:

Mike,

Thank you for your inquiry.
Yes, those part numbers serve your ’10 3.7L. Our new
site that launches in Nov will have the corrections /
updates. ’09 is listed b/c we have been told there was a
late ’09 in an overseas market, same as our ’10.
I like the st2+ with enhanced
hybrid option better than the st2 on cars that will be
re-suing the original dual mass flywheel. The surface on
that flywheel is not serviceable and some do not want to
spend the money to replace it. If your current clutch has
not slipped too much on that flywheel and gotten it too hot,
the surface may be OK to re-use, but the st2 material on the
flywheel side likes a perfectly flat surface. The st2+
will mate better to a previously installed/used flywheel.
The enhanced hybrid 2+ combines
the 2+ and 3+ materials, making a smoother, longer wearing
and a value added option that has become very
popular.The 2 and 2+ would both be
great for daily driving. The st2+ is slightly more sporty
at engagement and a unit that I prefer over all our stages
but 3+, which is simply overkill for your
setup.

Regards,David

prepreludesh

More dialogue between myself and David Norton from SPEC:

David,

Thank you for the time you took to give me a well-detailed explaination, it explained a lot and a I learned a lot from it. Based on what you told me about the dual mass flywheel (which I knew the car had, but didn't know the intricacies of it), I will be going with the st2+. I am going to cross my fingers and hope that whenever the shop I choose goes to install the clutch, that they do not find/recommend that the flywheel must be replaced with it.

Another small item concerning my transmission, I was told that the 2010+ TL's have something called a clutch delay valve. It is supposedly located inside of the clutch slave cylinder and its purpose is to restrict fluid to protect the drive train from harsh and aggressive shifts. It does this by slowing down the engaging and disengaging of the clutch but I've read that this can lead to premature failure. Have you ever heard of other cars that use a similar piece for the clutch to affect release and engagement? Do they have similar problems? Some other owners online are recommending I have mine removed when it comes time to replace the clutch. I might actually go along with it since I am not a fan of how the clutch currently engages and disengages when I drive. I'm not alone on this, as it seems Acura really added something they thought would make the clutch pedal seem more luxurious, but instead, all it did was made it sloppy and inconsistent in its take up point.

Once again, thank you for your time and advice.

Mike


His Response:

Mike,

Yes, a lot of '07+ cars have it. It is fine to modify/remove the restriction. It slows the rate of engagement, making clutch dumps slip the clutch a bit.

David


So I'm hearing it from the a seemingly reliable source that he'd go ahead and remove this worthless piece. I'm going to take the plunge soon. My clutch is slipping at an increasingly alarming rate ever since I started to really notice it 3 weeks ago.

ucf_bronco

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the info Mike. I'm hoping I never get to the point where I have to buy a new clutch but it's good to know there's a non-OEM option.

I do plan to remove the clutch delay valve at some point in the future but I will probably wait until I'm out of warranty. You may end up being the first 4G to do that so be sure to let us know what you think, and if the process is much different than the 3G some pics or even a full DIY would be awesome. Just something to keep in mind.

Good luck!

docboy

Thanks for sharing OP.

A few months I ago I was able to get my 3rd gear set replaced b/c it kept popping out (I was at 40k miles). A tech had asked if my clutch was slipping (which I felt it had not) but he did mention he felt the amount of play on my clutch was reduced.

So when the gear set was replaced (warranty work) the dealership also replaced the clutch assembly at no charge (not sure what that meant).

But I totally understand your frustration with the 4G TL's clutch. There is ZERO feel to the clutch, which makes it difficult to get a feel for the engagement point. I have to personally rely on memory and sound.

Looking forward to see how this new clutch plays out. How does the cost compare between the OEM and SPEC clutch?

prepreludesh

Can anyone help me out with getting a part number for the oem clutch? I can't even find it on the four Acura parts sites I've been on. I'm trying to do a cost comparison

mp3car

Glad to see this thread... I just purchased a 2012 6MT and have noticed it isn't really like the other manuals I've had, with the main issue appearing to be throttle response lag... Even if I do the "clutch in" and "gas off" at the exact same time, the revs increase a touch. If getting on it taking it to 6500rpms and then shift, it's almost as If I powershift - as if I don't let off the gas at all, even though I do. It's really noticable b/c the revs go up a decent bit. In a more relaxed mode, it's still apparent. I can be cruising in 4th and do a "gas out - clutch in" at what seems to be exactly the same time, but the revs rise 100 or so RPMs. This has got to be rough on the clutch! Do I have to let my foot of the gas 300ms prior to pushing in the clutch due to a lag in the throttle by wire operation? This is the first MT I've ever driven that is throttle by wire... If there's a significant delay, that means you have to stay off the gas for 0.X seconds before pressing the clutch, then that's a design flaw, not something the operator should have to correct for (or technically even could correct for and still have fast shifts).

My 1992 Maxima SE had over 130k on it's original clutch, and I beat the crap out of it from 60k (when I got it) to 130k. My 1994 GSR's clutch was fine up until it "broke" around 90k miles (during a race, if I recall, one of the springs somehow broke loose from the clutch disc).

I was warned about the 4G SH clutch by an acura service tech in Jacksonville, Florida (I grew up there, lived in KS/OK area for 11 years now though). He said he has seen them in for replacement at "early" times, 50k, 60k, etc... He wasn't sure though if it's a design issue vs. a bad driver, or an abuse issue...

I did notice after crawling along stop and go the other day in a parking lot, when I got out, I could smell the clutch... Of course I was having to push the clutch in, out, in, out, in, out, but i could definitely smell it when I parked.

And the OPs "test" by putting it in a high gear is exactly how I have seen a worn clutch behave. The car I learned to drive on, a 1988 Accord LX-i 5MT, had it's clutch wear around 130k miles. I learned on it, so that obviously hurt it a little, but still wasn't 70k!

prepreludesh

You might be feeling the beginning stages of a burnt clutch then. That sounds familiar to mine.

Well everyone, here is the update:



This just came in the mail today. It's a stage 2+ which the guy from SPEC said that would be okay for an application where you won't be resurfacing the flywheel. Just to reconfirm to everyone, you cannot resurface the dual-mass flywheels on the TL and a new one from Acura costs over $1300.

I will be getting this installed Thursday-Friday and I will try to bribe the shop into taking some pictures while they're in there.

A question for the masses: Since I'm at around 73,000 miles, is it worthwhile to replace my rear main seal? There is nothing visual or otherwise that shows that I'm having any leakage, but would I be doing myself a favor by resetting the "timeline" on that seal so that it won't have to be replaced for another 200,000 miles or so? Just an FYI, the rear main seal and O-Ring clock in at under $17 from Acura.

amill

What was the cost of the clutch? What is the labor going to cost to put it in? Just wondering.

mp3car

What makes you think burnt clutch? I'm only talking about revs increasing when shifting EVEN IF my foot is off the gas... not talking about revs increasing on hard throttle in a high gear... Even if I slip it on purpose while cruising and then floor it, the second I get off the clutch, it grabs. A burnt clutch, i would think it would continue to slip and revs would go up or hover higher than they should be, with little or no acceleration... At least that's would the behavior was on an old honda accord when it's clutch went out... Especially if you do it up a hill. This is why I am thinking there has to be something regarding a delay on throttle. How else can revs increase if my foot is off the gas?

prepreludesh

I got the clutch for $749.99 from Tunersports.com It was part of their January Holiday sale promo. The real price was a little bit more for around $775 or so. I should've gone for their military discount because I bet it'll be even cheaper.

The shop manual says that it will take 10 labor hours. Most transmissions shops in the Midwest are priced around $75 an hour for labor.

You're looking at $1500 to do everything then.

Is it worth it? Time will tell. The transmission shop called me today and it's ready to pick up. Pictures of the old clutch will be coming soon.

Just for reference: SPEC's Clutches area apparently not covered under their 1 year warranty unless you have a new flywheel installed or proof of having it resurfaced. Since our TL's have a Dual Mass Flywheel and those can't be resurfaced (and a new one costs $1300), you essentially don't have any warranty. This is the downside of it all. I wish a company like SPEC would come out with a one piece billet flywheel for our application. It would actually make it a whole lot more enjoyable, cheaper to operate and cheaper to purchase a replacement.

amill

That sucks. But honestly, unless there is a serious design defect, there shouldn't be a problem. Good luck and let us know how it changes pedal engagement and feel. In for pics of the old clutch.

prepreludesh

So here is the picture of the before and after. The dollar bill is included in the pictures for a size comparison (6.25" long).



All components of the clutch kit. The surfaces of the carbon/kevlar engagement pads felt somewhat smooth to the touch.



Pressure plate mating surface. It had a coarse looking metal face and felt somewhat rough to the fingertip surface



Both ends of the friction plate still had a decent amount of coarse-ness on the surface, which I found strange.



This is the tell-all picture. Like I said, the friction plate felt coarse (like it's supposed to I believe) all over, but look at the mating surface on the pressure plate. It has three warped spots on it, much like what happens on brake rotor surfaces. Warping does not denote metal turning wavy like a Pringles chip, but more of a slick surface forming after heat has had it's way with it.



Nothing wrong with this side of the pressure plate.



Pilot bearing just for reference. Very gunked-up with carbon-ish stuff. Not sure how to describe it.

prepreludesh

So here are my initial impressions, but remember the car still has 500 miles to go for the clutch-break in period. Even in the 15 miles I drove today, I could feel a change from initial start up to pulling it into the garage.

The clutch engagement point has changed. Initially it seemed unpredictable, but when it caught, it really caught and just took off. After more driving, it seemed as if the clutch would engage however gently or not gently as my foot would allow. I was driving in Army boots, so more on that as I can drive in regular shoes. Slow speed slipping of the clutch seemed hard to do (borderline impossible in reverse) but once again, I think this is something that will get better with the break in.

Finally, transition from 2nd gear on up was very seamless with no noticeable lurch or bump in the ride as it engaged.

I had the shop change out the manual transmission fluid to new stuff. I don't know if they replaced the stuff in the clutch lines too or not, but the clutch has an even lighter feeling when pressed on. Let's see how long that stays.

prepreludesh

This is the front friction surfaces of the friction plate.

CruzanTLSH-AWD

How Much was the Labor?

prepreludesh

$765 ($15 was for shop fees)

ucf_bronco

iTrader: (1)

Did you ever remove the clutch delay valve?

ATLBuckeye

I've been wondering about this for a while. Waiting for someone else to do it

prepreludesh

I talked with the shop about it, but utimately, they claimed they never "found" it. They said that the only place that they think it might've been is down near the slave cylinder (it's on the transmission, where you'd bleed the line) because there was something down there that they didn't recognize. Otherwise, they didn't feel comfortable enough with it to do anything about it.

As I approach putting 1000 miles on my clutch, there is still much confusion on my end as to how it operates.

1. The clutch seems very grabby all the time, which is making feathering the clutch almost impossible. While trying to feather it, you can tell the friction surface is so good at doing its job that it wants to connect and GO. But my foot is feeling what my mind is telling it to and it's trying to be more gentle. The feeling inside of the car is like that of a couple quick pulsing vibrations that is telling me that the clutch's friction plate is grabbing the flywheel and sticking with it. I'm very afraid about this because it makes me think I'm going to warp the flywheel face at this current rate

2. The feeling I've describe above does not get better or worse the longer I drive (city or highway). It remains the same

3. As I've said before, it has a tremendous amount of holding power and I have not felt anything slipping.

I'm thinking that this stage of clutch might be a little bit too aggressive for street use, but alas, it's too late to do anything about it.

ucf_bronco

iTrader: (1)

Interesting update...hopefully you won't have any issues in the long-term with the new clutch.

It makes sense that the shop couldn't find the CDV. It's located inside the slave cylinder so they would have had to remove that and disassemble it to pull out the valve.

I am just waiting for the right time to pull the trigger. I wanted to wait until I was outside of warranty but I worry about the damage that's being done in the interim. I never dump the clutch when launching but I do get the RPM's close to redline from time to time before shifting.

I've tracked down a few different DIY's on the site (3G TL and 2G TSX) and I feel that with those and the service manual it shouldn't be too difficult. When the day comes where I man up and do it I will try to put together a DIY for the 4G TL side. I'm just being a bit of a pussy since it's my DD and I can't be without it if I screw something up.

prepreludesh

I was told by the guy at SPEC that I am not the first person to buy this clutch for the 2010+ MT TL. I couldn't wrap my head around this because I would've figured that a person doing this kind of upgrade would've surely been enough of an enthusiast to post something on some kind of Acura website. Yet I've seen nothing.

maddogtheta

Thanks for the write up, I had to have my clutch replaced at 20k under warranty due to slipping. So far I have not noticed any slipping and I'm just over 85k miles at this point. It's nice to know there's an alternative to the stock clutch. Although from your review I would probably try and go with the stage 1 clutch...

Skier4lyfe303

iTrader: (32)

Anyone who is interested in removing the delay valve from the slave cylinder should read this post I just made (I didn't want to clutter this thread with that info):
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...9#post14877649

91lgndsdn

I'm staring to notice wear (slipping) in the higher gears, when accelerating I see the RPMs rev up. How is your new SPEC clutch holding up?

91lgndsdn

Exactly my symptons, I've only got 36k on it and it's less than 3 years old.

prepreludesh

a little more than a year after having my SPEC clutch installed, I have put almost another 17,000 miles on the car and now sit at just over 90,000 total miles. The clutch isn't operating any differently for me compared to my last posts, but there is a disturbing "scrreeeeeee" noise every now and then that will sound when moving the car from a stop. It happens to me when I am trying to be light with the clutch (almost like feathering a stock clutch). It worries me, but I don't feel any distinct degradation in how it feels while driving with gears 2-6.

I have emailed SPEC clutch again today and asked them how likely it was that they'd design a single piece, billet flywheel to replace the dual-mass flywheel that our cars have. I know a fair deal about dual mass flywheels, but do not understand why the unneeded expense was invested to put one in our V-6 engine. Their applications on large industrial-scale equipment makes sense, but not our cars. This would achieve, in my opinion, way better clutch pedal feel for us and perhaps a longer life for all components involved if only we had a regular single piece unit.

Please share your thoughts or experiences on this topic if you've had anything fail/replaced with your manual transmission since last year.

hornedfrog

thanks for taking the plunge with this.

i've considered what i will do if my clutch needs to be changed. i'd like something that has a little more positive feel upon engagement.

with this car, honda obviously prioritized silky-smoothness over hard-edged aggression of performance hondas of years past (ITR, S2000, NSX, civic si). If there's something that bridges the gap between the two then i'd do it.

along with your comments above, i agree that it would be nice if this car had more of an enthusiast following. it seems honda lost the pulse with the retirement of the 3G. if it was a sharp sports sedan with honda racing heritage then i think we'd see a lot more discussion on this website.