moych1

As i posted a couple of days ago. I have a 2010 6mt (palladium) and went to the dealership a couple of weeks ago for an oil consumption test.I wanted to trade it in for a white 2012 6mt - salesman told me - it is near impossible to one.

moych1

You're a100% right. I bought snow tires from Tire Rack last year and with the record breaking snow that we had in New York - With the 6mt, sh-awd plus the snow tires - that car was unstoppable.
" SAVE THE MAnual "

JM2010 SH-AWD

Agree. As I told my wife after driving her MT Accord on a recent slippery day, give me a MT and FWD (or AWD), and I can get through most anything. Add winter tires and delete the "most." I have not driven my TL in serious snow, but from how it handles in the wet, I can tell it would excel in snow. MTs just give that extra level of control with the ability to control power application through the clutch and the ability to coast and brake with the motor "engaged."

BEAR-AvHistory

I’ll go with Ferrari & Lamborghini who call it a seven-speed automated manual transmission. I believe the C7 Corvette will also call it a seven-speed automated manual transmission.

Edward'TLS

Nowadays, all these dual-clutch and DSG trannies will shift much faster than manual trannies, and therefore will allow even quicker acceleration times than cars equipped with manual trannies.

gibjer

And unless that's in an exotic that DSG is still subject to delay and lag.

VW/Audi DSG's are frustrating to drive for this reason.

Had a DSG GTI back in 07, only lasted 6 months because even though it was a DSG, the computer still had a mind of it's own, other then the Outback my wife has (which is a shiftable CVT and isn't that bad really) I haven't had a non stick since.

DannyZRC

Uh oh, I've been name dropped. I accede to you via force of referenced marketing departments.

hah!

the most manual they get is giving you the gear you ask for, after checking that you are in compliance with operating paramters.

Can you moneyshift it? No? Not a manual.

Can you shift to too low a gear, but not overrev the engine via delayed clutch engagement or clutch slippage? No? Not a manual.

Can a transmission computer break and render your transmission inoperative? Yes? Not a manual.

It's like me calling my computer manual because when I push keys, letters appear. My computer isn't manual, a typewriter is manual.

BEAR-AvHistory

Not being able to do stupid things is bad, why? The Manual 5 speed in my 1998 Ranger 4X4 will not let me shift into reverse from a foward gear if it break something by doing so. One of my old Corvette 6MT's prevent me from sequentally upshifting, forcing skipped gears, if it was not happy with predetermined conditions.

Edward'TLS

The Corvette's 1->4 skip shift on the 6MT is one feature most hated by almost all Corvette owners, but has to be in place by GM in order to artificially boost the overall fuel economy figure.

Six Shifter

^ and is one of the easiest things to not be concerned with. either shift before the 1>4 idiot light comes on, or continue accelerating until it goes off and then shift ... or just get the thing tuned out. I have about as much concern with the 1>4 skip shift on mine as I do with the amber DRL's that seem to be a huge source of concern " ... by almost all Corvette owners ...".

DannyZRC

those are two very narrow examples of devices added on to a transmission, not to automate them but to constrain their behavior, surely you could consider those a baby step towards automation.

but, refresh my memory, what does the shifting in those transmissions? Oh, right.. hand powered, aka Manual

BEAR-AvHistory

You can't have it both ways the gearboxes either have automation assist or they don't, we are now just about how much. Last time I checked a shift handle movement or a paddle pull shifted the gears, just like a Formula 1 or Le mans 24 hour car & a lot faster & with less mistakes then the old low tech gearbox versions.

If they provide enough control for the best drivers in the world driving the most expensive cars at 200+ mph who am I to say they are clueless & should really have the handle in the cockpit directly attached to the shift forks or the clutch pedal indirectly attached to the throw-out bearing through hydraulics.

You might want to play a semantics game but as you said, there is no torque converter, no sun/planetary gears or pressure actuated external frictions bands in a DCT transmission. Its just a plane old gearbox with 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 + reverse helical cut gears & synchronizers driven by two clutch plates.

Funny thing is when you think about the 6MT full syncro box in the TL how the purists whined when they put in syncros on 2,3,4th gears then again when the added a syncro to 1st & finally when they replaced mechanical linkage to the throw-out bearing with a hydraulic package.

Once again the demand to stay in the past is strong with the god save us from automated gearbox guys even though they have had pre-select manual 3 speed gear boxes since the 1930’s.

The 65 year old plane I fly has cables that run to the control surfaces from the stick....an F-16 uses a computer & no cables.

Its back to the future once again.

DannyZRC

I'm sorry that thinking paddle shifted DCT transmissions are a silly fad paints me as a Luddite to you.

It is however absolutely the case that skip shift or reverse lockout are not forms of automation, they do not DO anything. They prevent something from being done. If you can't grasp how performing an action is the very heart of automation, then what more is there for me to say on the subject?

I'm no big fan of relaxed stability and fly-by-wire nonsense on F-16s and the like either, the russians seem to have done quite well for themselves with the flanker, and it's got a a whole ton less in the way of silly "cutting edge" sophistry.

I think things should be built to last, I think they should be easy to service, and I think that they should, as much as possible, be built to fail gracefully rather than catastrophically.

Lastly, racing is an extremely narrow use of an automobile. Sequential shifting makes plenty of sense on a racetrack, but it annoys me to no end on a motorcycle when I'm not trying to be ricky racer. And while you may have strict control of gear selection in a DCT, you have a very strange interpretive dance going on with your accelerator pedal and the computer in terms of how to blend throttle and clutching at low speeds. There's plenty of video evidence for how flummoxed DCTs can be by handbrake turns, I've also test driven both the mitsu TC-SST and the VW DSG and they both would sit there totally confused for a beat or two if you rolled into the throttle suddenly after nearly decelerating to a stop.

.

3rdGenHybrid

People are shocked when I valet my car at the casino and see that its a 6mt then even more so when I tell them its awd, I'm all about the clutch, it feels right, I'm not a formula 1 driver, I'm just an enthusiast to cars where I can remember the days where manual trans weren't an option, and every female knew how to drive one. Sure dct is faster, consistent, accurate, and I'm sure fun to drive....but take the mistakes out of racing (mostly drag racing) then it basically comes down to who's got more money and not who's the better driver right?

Anywho moych1 u had to start an oil consumption?! How many miles? And do you go by the oil life for oil changes or do you just change it every 3000 miles? ?

Ant$

wow...went to http://www.cars.com/ and the closest manual trans 2012 TL is 71 miles away!!!...

i love my manual trans 2010 (still a lot owed on the car note), but damn, i'm almost tempted...

BEAR-AvHistory

DannyZRC,

There is nothing bad about being a Luddite my 330Ci & pickup are from the dark ages & are still fun to drive. My comments are about people dismissing the DCT’s as somehow inferior to the full manual. Unlike you I have no problems with my bikes sequential shift pattern because in a Luddite type statement bikes have always been that way going back to my BSA that I learned to ride on in 1960.

I don’t normally do hand brake turns so I can’t comment on how my DCT might or might not handle them. That being said I can shift up or down two or three gears before 99% of the 6MT drivers can get their clutch in & out.

Under full manual sport mode (trans has 6 patterns) there is no issue of it getting confused going into the throttle hard off a 1st gear deceleration, loss of traction is more of an issue. One “feature” I did not like was a forced kick down in some gears at WOT in full manual mode. This was eliminated by simply blocking the switch, something I learned doing dyno runs on the car.

Some odds & ends. Regarding the Flanker. The Su-30MK is a full FBW unstable aircraft which enables it to do the famous Pugachev’s “Cobra” maneuver. The one of the most advanced versions the Su-30MKI used Indian, French & Israeli avionics.

Side note the SU-27 Flanker computer simulation is considered to be, along with F-16 Fighting Falcon, one of the most comprehensive simulations available for the civilian market. My name is listed in both operators manuals as a beta tester.

The Combat records of the plane are F-15 102-0-0, F-16 76-1-5, Flanker 0-0-0

Finally, there is nothing “built to fail gracefully rather than catastrophically” about a money shift.

BEAR-AvHistory

Just picked this up from Motor Trend while looking at some other TL stuff. It might explain why they are so hard to find

"It expects about 5% of its projected 70,000 TL sales per year, or 3500, to be sold with the stick."

The actual sales volume turned out to be about half the projected at 34,000 last year so that could mean only 1,700/1,800 6MT's were scheduled to be built. With that kind of volume you can see why they are not making much of an effort to ramp 6MT production back up after the flood.

Little Gator

I took my car in to the Acura dealership a few months ago to get them to explain the wiggly driver seat to me. The service writer wanted to move the car forward on the driveway to make room for the next car to pull in, but after 3 attempts to start it, I had to tell him to hold the clutch pedal in first. His responce: "oh, this is a manual". I don't go there anymore.
The manual TL-4g first came out in Sept. 09.
Porsche sportscars will always be available with a manual. The sedan & SUV is another story.

Edward'TLS

The actual demand may even be less than the expected 5% number.

BEAR-AvHistory

Agree, but there is no way to tell the real number outside of Honda's internal numbers which they don't seem interested in supplying.

You get down to these numbers & it becomes a real boutique item that dealers might not want to pre-order without a signed contract.

Edward'TLS

Sooner or later, Acura would cut the loss and would delete the 6MT option from the TL sedan (5G?) altogether, and only make it available on the V6 Accord and coupe which command a lot more sales.

NwTSXmt

The 1-4 Skip shift is only a problem if you drive like a little old lady...just sayin...

BEAR-AvHistory

It will be interesting to see what they make available in the new NSX. If it goes DCT like the next gen Vette the 6MT is in big trouble.

docboy

Looking at the April 2012 Motor Trend issue, page 34-37 has an article on the 2015 NSX.

Per the article's third paragraph: "So the next NSX, expected by 2015, will employ a mid-mounted V-6, complete with titanium connecting rods coupled to a wet twin-clutch seven-speed transmission and hybridized with an electric motor driving the rear wheels."

Looks like the 6MT will be gone in the upcoming NSX...

3rdGenHybrid

The Nsx will be running 2 electric motors in the front, and a hybrid/electric mid engine. No driveshaft and no clutch pedal...

gibjer

As long as the accord and TL share a platform, if it's available on the accord there's really no reason not to offer it on the TL, even if it's in limited numbers and by order only.

The longer they hold out, the more people will migrate from other brands that are getting rid of them all together.

Edward'TLS

Unless the Accord and the TL are identical cars like the European Accord and the Acura TSX, otherwise there will be expensive tooling cost and extra parts logistic to keep a separate production line ready for the limited quantity 6MT TL manufacturing run.

BEAR-AvHistory

I don't see any real migration trend since the DCT's are being introduced as a replacement in most cases. Once the stick lost its quickness advantage its appeal started to fade.

I have been driving stick since 1959 & have had one ever since, still have two the pick-up & the 330ci. The 335is is the first performance car I have ever owned that was not stick & its quicker then the 6MT version even based on factory numbers.