Do you think you are more in control of your 6MT at 70mph than a F1 driver is with a DCT at 200mph? I switch back & forth, the DCT will cover the same roads quicker than the 6MT everytime. There is a fun factor with the 6MT but its just not as proficient. I personally believe you have more control with both hands on the wheel.

As for driving & riding last time I looked the F1 guys were classified as the best "drivers" not riders in the world. But thanks for highlighting a point about the MT drivers attitude.

 

^^^^^

Not just for F1 racing, even Touring Cup races are all using sequential shift semi-auto transmissions.

 

Do you time yourself? Haha, that's great. I'm glad you found your comfort level with the DCT I am not a race car driver (thank you for comparing) but an average spirited driver and a manual transmission is what I feel most comfortable using to be in control of the vehicle.

 

First, let me be clear I have nothing against AT, DCT and the like. But I would be more impressed with a driver who can do a quicker lap on an MT than on a AT/DCT for the simple fact it takes much more skills and hard work to rev match the gears, blip the throttle or staying in the ideal rev range all while finding the apex of a corner with one hand and switching to the correct gear with the other hand. There is a lot more hand, eye and feet coordination, so yes there is some bragging rights involved. The driver will feel way more connected with the car then having just having to step on the brakes, paddle shifting, turn and getting on the throttle and letting the computer think for you. There is an element missing. And theoretically speaking, DCT is more proficient and should beat the lap times of MT driver with equal skill levels. But there is no substituation for the overall feel of driving a car with some classic heel-and-toe action. It's Man vs. Machine!

 

Does your granddaughter know how to double clutch? lol it's not just about shifting thru the gears if you're a spirited driver. Anyone can learn how to drive a stick but it takes practice and skills to master an MT.

 

Bear-

I'm probably not as in control as an F1 driver at 200 MPH vs me at 70 MPH, but not sure that's a fair comparison. After all an F1 driver does that for a living
However make a more fair comparison to me at 70 MPH vs many (or most) other drivers at the same speed in the same situation and I would say yes. Am I a better driver, maybe, but definitely feel like I am more in control.
Two hands on the wheel - yup, but truth be told, even when I drive my wife's or daughter's automatics, I still have my right hand on the gear selector.

 

Not an apples to apples comparison. If comparing 70mph MT vs 70mph DCT, I would argue the MT has better control. As advanced as computers are these days, even with all the electronic gizmos you cannot replace human intuition and human common sense.

Agreed.

I would also argue that especially during snowy and icy conditions, the MT driver has far better control. The clutch permits a more gradual and controlled acceleration, decreasing likelihood of excessive spin.

I've driven AT, MT, and DCT on snow and ice. IMHO with the MT I have far better control and feel of the vehicle. How much of that is subjective I don't know, but my experience suggests with MT the driver is more at control and is more attentive.

 

Yes. I have a marked 1/4 mile & a nice curvy road section in Mexico to alpha & beta test software for the JB4 system. Occasionally borrow a Vbox for accurate back to back testing of specific changes.

 

No one so far has explained how you are more in control, what is the specific thing that gives you more control.

Downshifting & rev matching are all well & good but the purpose is to get you from A to B quickly. If you get from A to B less quickly with a MT is control actually less & preventing you from going faster?

The fun factor is there with a MT but that is not more control its just a feeling just like when someone adds a CAI & their car feels faster even when its not.

As for being a better driver I am willing to bet that most everyone on this board thinks they are in the better driver class even though there is no way to test this on the street without being really stupid. Again its just a feeling because you are having a good time.

I would also venture a guess that less than 1% of the members here have ever completed a competition driving course & a track day at a road course.

Even a ride along on a track day tends to be a real eye opener as to the capabilities of a really good driver to one who has never experienced it.

 

Yes, she is driving a 15 year old truck with very old sketchy synchros. I taught her the same way I taught troops to drive MT's when I was in the Army.

FIXED: Anyone can learn how to drive a stick & with practice anyone can master an MT.

 

Think you are missing the point. A DCT pushes the clutch & moves the shift forks either in response to the ECU or in manual mode in response to the drivers input. The DCT transmission is a manual gearbox with automated shifting. Nothing there for the computer to do but shift when you tell it to.

How do you have more control pushing a pedal connected to a hydraulic cylinder to disengage the clutch then having a electric current tell the hydraulics to disengage the clutch?

Will go you one better on clutch engagement. The TL has a delay valve built into its clutch master cylinder that takes away your ability to rapidly engage the clutch when you release the pedal on a fast shift. DCT has no valve & engagement is instantaneous. The rest of the system is you has a lever connected to the shift forks that you push & pull to engage the gears one at a time.

A DCT has two input shafts (dual clutch) so one gear set is always engaged. Hydraulic pressure moves the shift forks instead of the leaver. In a manual you disengage one gear set then engage the next one so there is a gap in the transmission of power to the rear wheels.

I've driven AT, MT, and DCT on snow and ice. IMHO with the MT I have far better control and feel of the vehicle. [/QUOTE]

Again its a matter of opinion. At the strip I start in second gear because 1st will over power street tires. Be interested in what DCT you had trouble with in the snow.

Back in the day before the general acceptance of AT's crashes were caused by inattentive drivers just like today.

 

Again its a matter of opinion. At the strip I start in second gear because 1st will over power street tires. Be interested in what DCT you had trouble with in the snow.



Back in the day before the general acceptance of AT's crashes were caused by inattentive drivers just like today.[/QUOTE]



I think you are missing our point.

You can definately shift a lot faster in DCT (and that is the main benefit and what it's intended for) but you have more control in MT because you can modulate the RPMs to find your desired power band. For example, say if someone wants to do a burnout (and you can to an extent) on DCT, they cannot hold the car in place even with TC off like they could in an MT. So DCT you can not modulate the revs and the clutches preloads to the next gear, it does not shift for you which is what you were are saying. You still need to do the shifting thru the paddles.

Both are excellent options, it just comes down to preference. New school versus old school. Keep in mind, repair costs will be substantial higher if something breaks on DCT because of the complex electronics involved. Awesome technology though.

 

Yes & no. Not as delivered from the factory. Its a software patch like the boost management

 

Most likely used a line lock kit, which is a very costly mod and kit. So realistically speaking NO.

 

Its not a line lock its a software change. The car in the vid is on a tune with a DCT package that prevents the stability system from seeing the rear wheels spin. You are correct that some cars are also using line locks. A BMW 135/335 specific Line Lock system MARP $400. As for cost, guys modding cars running up to $80K with $15K worth of superchargers are not sweating $1000 here or there. Typically the really big bucks cars just ask if whatever mod is will it make the car faster & bill me when its done

Example: A CAI in carbon fiber from Dinan (IMHO worthless but looks slick) costs roughly twice what I have put into my car, less tires, to raise it from 330 crank horsepower to 460 crank horsepower.

Point is you can do a standing burnout with a DCT when you have a need for standing burnouts. Most people don't need them since without a wet down they tend to break things.

Since N54's are running 99% of the time on summers or street/strip tires a standing burn out to heat slicks is not really necessary. Most of us just drive around the bleach box do a quick dry burnout to clean the tires go up to the line & go.

BTW: I do not use the Launch Control System just throttle modulation for control on launch.

 

I do not believe there is a software that exists. And if it does, there's not many out there either. Even line lock kits are very limited for any car with DCT. Too much into it to do a burnout as a opposed to a MT where there is no work involved.

And back to point lol...MTs have more control over throttle modulation than DCT does and that is fact. You can give all the reasons you want. The DCT will intervene with any standing burnout. You can try to feather the brake pedals but the RPMs will drop. It's a safety thing and in essence, you're not really controlling the throttle. The "middle man" aka computer will kick in.

 

Funny that standing burnout capability is the hot button with a TL driver. Where exactly do you do these burnouts since you pretty much never see a TL at any competitions?

Sorry if you don't believe it. I guess there is nothing more to say except if we ever were to meet I hope you will enjoy the view of the tail lights on my lack of control DCT moving away at a rapid pace while you exert maximum control of your 6MT TL. After your burn out that is.

Of course to make it less unfair to you I could run with the 135is instead.

 

By the way in the first vid notice the words "burnout mode" that is not engage the Link Lock that is switch the program.

 

LMAO Hahaha too funny. You sure like to deviate. Sucks when I prove you wrong huh? Who said I do burnouts on my TL? I would never do burnouts on a TL. I was just using burnouts as a reference to the fact that you will need throttle control to do any standing burnouts and donuts on a car. MTs will give you that control, DCT cannot.

PS
I know my TL ain't the fastest in a straight line nor track but I will gladly take you on circuit and we will see who has the fastest lap times. All factory setup; no mods. I have nothing more to add.

 

There just aren't many people who want a manual car nowadays and not many people can drive them. I couldn't drive a stick until I was in college and roommates taught me. My parents only had autos so that's how I learned how to drive.

I will say that a TL with the Advance Package in a manual would be really sweet though if Acura decided to do that, that is, but as others said, there isn't much demand for stick shift cars as it is.

 

He'd probably enjoy just as much as you watching him finish ahead of you on any serious track or circuit. Calm down, your car really isn't as great as you think it is...

 

I showed two vid with BMW DCT’s doing standing burnouts you said they could not do....dig the hole a little deeper.

You said Line Locks are expensive for a BMW. They cost $400 specifically designed for the 135/335 models which is cheaper than the software mod.

You want to show me up on a track with your TL when you list New England & I list NC as home, Really? That being said my BMWCCA uses VIR as its school & track day location. Its an interesting talking point but I expect you are drinking the 4 way R&T handling test Cool Aid.

You do know that the magazine ran a handicap race on an abbreviated course not the full race course? In their brief they said it was so the stronger cars would not run away from the slow ones. Who might the stronger cars be?

S4: 1:00:41
TL: 1:01:51
335i: 1:01:80
G37S: 1:01:96

Times they ran (above) on the Streets of Willow abbreviated course but not the full course.

Interesting to note on the full Streets of Willow track cars in the 1:00 1:01 lap time range include nobody. The best lap times are held by a a GT-R 1:19:55 & 1:20:25 both by Randy Pobst. Best 3 series was an M3 pretty far back at 1:27:67. I really doubt my car is 26 seconds faster around the Streets than a prepared M3.

Suspect that if these guys knew a TL was 20+ seconds quicker around the Streets they would be looking for a new sponsor deal.

The R&T test was something like the very short Honda test track that the introduced the 6MT on against the usual suspects. Again the TL did well with all the cars finishing under a blanket like at the R&T test. So I guess what it proves is RWD can stay with AWD on a tight course.

Not bad for the low tech RWD cars. On a course where the cars can run out their engines the TL will not stay with any of them & since they are all similar in tight turns there does not seem to be any way the TL can close back up. Your results may vary.

Be interesting to see the general reaction to this one

 

Be interesting to find out. Its not great just very good at when it does. I have driven SHAWD & they are not the road course cars you think they are.

They are very nice as long as you have very short straights. Open the track a bit & they cannot keep up. If they had a lot more engine they would be called Audi's

Bet my old 150hp Morgan would do well against the TL on a tight course.

I will give him the win on donuts if he think they are an important thing for a car to be able to do. Thought that was a High School thing anyway.