liquidneon

LOL love the comments. I've never even seen one of these on the road. Had to google it.

Brock79

Most people on here do cross shop the 3 series and TL. Unless you were cross shopping brand new TL's and used 5 series. The TL is closer in size to the 5 series which we all know but not so close in price. I see more talk of people going into 3 series or cross shopping with the 3 series on here than any other BMW. Also the IS Lexus is mentioned the most for those looking at the Lexus. That's also because of price, comparison write ups online never compare a TL to a 5 series or even mention them in the same breath. The SHO however has been mentioned as an alternative to the 5 series.

JM2010 SH-AWD

^^ Lots of folks who have posted on this forum, myself included, cross-shopped the 5 and the TL. After driving both, looking at performance, fit, features, expected reliability and price, it was an absolute no-brainer to get the TL. The AWD TL will run down the 535, which a lot of people refuse to admit.


After 4 years I've never looked back. My AWD MT is a perfect blend of sport, comfort, features and luxury/refinement. Can't think of anything I'd replace it with, especially in its price range.

LawnPro

To the op.....excellent write up! Thank you.

hondatuner03

Does anyone know how the MT handles in heavy or wet snow? I've been waiting for one to shiw up for sale in my area, but have had no luck.

JM2010 SH-AWD

^^ Very well, to the point of ground clearance, of course. And winter tires will make a big difference. But the combination of AWD and MT makes for a formidable winter weapon. Very stable and able.

liquidneon

so far so good... (I have the stock tires). My first winter with my 2010 6MT SHAWD.

saturno_v

Brock

Actually I would say in this forum the majority of 4G owners (especially the SH-AWD) cross shopped the 5 and the A6 rather than the 3, (Infiniti M and Lexus GS were in the mix as well) and few FWD owners also cross shopped the FWD Audi A6.


Few links where the comparison TL-5 Series was done

Kelley Blue Book

2013 Acura TL Review: Car Reviews

2010 Acura TL SH-AWD Tech, an AW Drivers Log | Autoweek

Edmunds and others as well...

In the official press release of the 4G TL, the 5 Series is mentioned as competitor

2010 Acura TL - Overview - Acura Automobiles - Honda News

When I did buy my TL the marketing material used was a comparison between the TL and the 535i

From the Acura Frontline magazine of that time:





So.....

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

Of course the above comparison info are from Acura magazines and from Acura marketing materials, because this is what Acura has been dreaming to achieve from day 1, which is to attain the same brand status recognition as BMW and to use the ILX to rival the 3-series, the TL/TLX to rival the 5-series, and the RL/RLX to rival the 7-series.

However, the above wishes are totally unrealistic in this real world, at least not yet. The TL/TLX is simply not in the same league as the 5-series BMW, in terms of pricing.

A base V6 FWD 4G-TL started off at $36K MSRP and the fully-loaded V6 AWD 4G-TL topped out at $46K MSRP, whereas the cheapest 5-series (base 4-cylinder RWD 528i) starts off at $50K MSRP and tops out at $71K MSRP.

When car shoppers shop for new cars, they usually cross-shop those vehicles that are more or less within a similar price range, and the 4G TL ($36K-$46K) is definitely not even close to that of the 5-series ($50K-$71K).

For those buyers who only have less than $46K to spent on a new sedan, they can well afford anything up to the V6 AWD TL/TLX all right, but will find it hard to cough out an extra $3+K to buy even the bare-bone RWD 4-cylinder 5-series sedan.

Therefore, not gonna happen.

And you know what. The only luxury sedan that Acura has intentionally created to pitch against the 5-series/E-class is the RL/RLX, but not anything less.

saturno_v

I do not care about brand status or perceived image by the public (which by the vast majority do not know squat about cars anyway)...I look at specs...


That's right...just in terms of pricing...regardless of pricing you will admit, for example, that a Hyundai Genesis belong to a higher segment than a 3 Series don't you??


Actually less than many people assume...the small sample of TL owners on this forum already proves that people do not necessarily stretch their car budget potential always to the absolute limits (they cross shopped the 5 Series, GS, A6).


It happens all the time

I posted a link to the Acura press release for the TL where they clearly state the intended competition...feel free to read it...their words not mine (by the way the 4G TL and the RL are mechanically, size wise and chassis wise basically identical so it's really a moot point)...the fact they have been successful in doing so in the eyes of the public or not it's a different story and I could not care less because it's all about perception not objective reality.

JM2010 SH-AWD

^^ I think this is the point some of us were making. The 4G is much less $$ than say a 535. But it offers more car and more performance (not to say reliability, etc.) That is why my 4G was a no-brainer over the 535. The fact that I saved 20K or so was gravy.


If one were cross-shopping solely on price, the 3 series would have been a closer comparison to the 4G SH-AWD, but interior volume was dramatically less than the 4G. (Although I did prefer the 3 sedan's styling (and still do) over the 5 series).

Edward'TLS

This is all marketing bullshit, my boy.

Acura pays the marketing firms big bucks to hype up its products, to dress up the TL in advertising materials as if the car has a bigger set of balls than it actually has.

Only a wise man knows what to believe and what not, especially with an automaker that has repeatedly failed, but is still struggling to try, to attain the same luxury brand status level as Audi, BMW, MB, and Lexus.

Even though the TL is similar to the RL in some areas, but it lacks all the advanced functions and electronic features that are must-have's in the RL/5/E class luxury sedans. Two of the crucial ones are the "genuine wood trim interior" and "folding side mirrors".

But hats off to the marketing team, who is able to fool some people into really thinking the TL is in the same league as the RL/5/E class luxury sedans.

However, luxury sedans buyers are no fool, and no matter what Acura wants them to believe, they aren't buying its crap.

Let the real world annual sales figures be the judge :

TL (MSRP up to $46K)
2013 24,318 units
2014 10,616 units

5-series (MSRP $50K and up)
2013 56,863 units
2014 52,704 units

E-class (MSRP $51K and up)
2013 69,803 units
2014 66,400 units

Acura has over-stretched its intention, and it's like sending a lightweight boxer into a boxing match against a heavyweight champion, which is totally unrealistic and laughable.

wreak

Every auto brand does this not just Acura...

Are you serious? Folding mirrors...that's one of the two crucial must haves in that class? I'd think things like heads up display, night vision, high beam and park assist are more important than "folding mirrors" lol.

I also want to note that I think you're a bit confused about what exactly Acura is trying to do when they bring up cars like the BMW 5 Series. They aren't saying they're selling a better product, they're saying they're selling a better value...two very different things.

saturno_v

Exactly....


They are basically identical on all fundamental mechanics and chassis wise...you are the one being fooled by electronic gadgetry which cost very little to implement...so following your logic a Ford Fusion is a superior vehicle than a 4G or a 5 Series because it can park itself....

The 4G TL at some point was the third best selling midsize sedan in the market...yes many of us were "fooled"....

How fair of you to compare selling numbers of the TL on its way out with the other 2 champion of the segment (which, by the way, offer more engine options to begin with)

So do you measure how good a car is only from its sales numbers....so, according to your logic, the A6 or the Lexus GS must be horrible sport sedans since they do not sell as well as the 5 Series and E class...

Edward'TLS

Of course this is not fair, simply because the TL is not in the same league as the 5-series and E-class sedans, even though Acura and its marketing team was trying to fool some upscale sedan buyers by pitching the lightweight TL against the heavyweight benchmark of its class (5-series).

It just doesn't cut it for Acura.

Like you said above with the lack of engine choices (and also engine-driveline combinations) for the TL. The TL just doesn't have what it takes to play with the 5/E class sedans.

The reason why I pulled out the sales numbers is to illustrate how miserably the TL would fail, if the TL was really used to compare with the one-class-higher 5/E class sedans.

A benchmark vehicle is almost always the sales leader in its vehicle class.

The entire auto industry categories that the RL/RLX, A6, 5, E, and GS, in the same vehicle class, but never the TL, which belongs to the TL/A4/3/C/IS vehicle class.

Therefore, if the RL/RLX/A6/GS don't sell well, it means that they aren't as good as the 5/E sedans, which are the benchmark vehicles in the class. These losers may not be horrible, but they are just not good enough. It's this plain and simple.

When luxury sedan buyers are spending $50+K of hard earn dough, they sure to hell that they are going to get their full money's worth.

Within the TL/A4/3/C/IS vehicle class, the 3-series has always been the benchmark vehicle (and sales leader) in the class.

If the TL can't even come close to the 3-series in sales, what makes one think that the TL is up to the task to challenge the benchmark vehicle in the even higher vehicle class (RL/RLX/A6/5/E/GS) and especially the class leading 5-series.

I too wish that my TL could challenge the Porsche and the Ferrari, but everyone knows that I must be out of my mind.

saturno_v

You are saying some truth and making a huge amount of assumptions.

Let's see:

Here I agree...the TL does not have the engine options to fully play in that segment...in fact it can be considered an "also competitor"...no V8 for example
However, to be fair, even the GS currently does not offer a V8 and the new A6 did not offer it as well for quite some time before the debut of the S6.

Here you take your first run into the ditch of logic reasoning

The current iteration of the 5 Series is hardly any benchmark today...in many direct comparos has been outclassed by the A6, the GS, even the Infiniti M ...sales leader does not always mean benchmark...far from it..the Camry is the best selling midsize sedan in the US......nobody would consider it a dynamic benchmark against an Accord or an Altima or even a Ford Fusion.

Define "the entire industry"..C&D?? Motortrend?? R&T?? I already posted links of industry media that consider the TL a viable competitor to the 5 Series and some of them are very mainstream (Edmunds and KBB)

The A6 and the GS are currently simply better than a 5 Series according to many....



Your sales=best failed reasoning run you into the ditch of logic reasoning again for the third time....do you really think a airhead RE agent driving around with a semi stripper 528i really understand what he/she is buying ??? Brand power my friend.

Do a car enthusiast realize that a TL SH-AWD is the better sport sedan compared to a 528i?? You can bet your behind....one forum member, jjc6 I believe his nickname is, actually bought a 550i after a TL and according to him the TL was the better sport sedan (with the 550i trumping the TL in many other aspects of course)

You still have not replied to my question....is the Hyundai Genesis a superior vehicle in term of segment compared to the 3 Series despite price similarities??? Is the Ford Fusion a superior vehicle to the TL for having more electronic gadgets??...take all the time you need to review your assumptions

People with such slotted view are a marketer's dream....playing right into their game.

hddnav

No argument that the TL is more Honda Accord than anything else, but let's be objective about the 2014 sales numbers here, in that it was a lame duck year, especially after the TLX came out in July/August. Production had ceased even before then.

The point is the same, though. Once you're paying $50k for a car, you're no bargain shopper, and you're probably pretty damn insensitive over whether the car is $50k or $70k. Or, if you're leasing, why settle for a bargain cost-conscious choice, like the TL or any other Acura?

Hence, BMW, Lexus, Audi, and MB win hands-down. Acuras primarily attract working-class Honda owners (which is fine by me ).

2012wagon

Lot of Koreans in LA, like being Korean ballers by driving homemmade Equus

Edward'TLS

Nice try mate.

The Hyundai brand is an economy auto brand, just like Honda/Toyota/VW/etc., while BMW is a recognized true luxury auto brand.

So comparing the Genesis with the 3-series is like comparing an expensive, high-tech Timex watch with a plain Rolex watch.

It doesn't work this way, because an economy brand top-line vehicle, with an economy brand price tag, will always look superior than those from a true luxury auto brand that carries a luxury brand premium price tag.

Likewise, the economy brand Ford Fusion will become superior when compared to the premium priced Acura TL, and the economy brand Honda Accord will become superior than the luxury brand BMW 3-series, etc., etc.

Even though Acura is still not being recognized as a true luxury auto brand, but only as a entry-level luxury auto brand, the auto industry always compares Acura vehicles with those from the true luxury brands.

That's why the TL gets to play with the A4/3/C/IS, but not the economy brand Genesis, nor the economy brand Fusion.

saturno_v

Nice try actually not answering to my question....car segments have nothing to do with brands...and you try to backtrack and spin on your more gadgets=higher segment after I did throw at you the Ford Fusion curveball.

I repeat again..does the Genesis belong to a higher segment than the 3 Series??

I realize that you have difficulty providing a coherent answer because this is in contrast with your preconceived brand mindset...I answer for you...yes it does, despite the fact it is a Hyundai

Lose the badge mentality and concentrate on specs....


Your Timex-Rolex analogy is totally laughable...a BMW is not a Rolex in the automotive world.....do you realize nowadays BMW sells el cheapo FWD drivers like the Active Tourer models do you?? Or inexpensive 3 cylinder engine cars in Europe....

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

I've answered your question already.

Hyundai is an economy brand, but BMW is a true luxury brand.

The Hyundai Genesis is a premium economy large-size sedan, and the 3-series is a true luxury compact sedan.

So which vehicle category is higher : "premium economy-brand large sedan" or "true luxury-brand compact sedan" ? Sorry, I honestly don't know, because hardly anyone, in the right mind, would care to compare these two completely distinctive vehicle categories.

Also, please refrain from any further personal attacks. The mods don't like them.

saturno_v

I never attacked you at personal level, if that was your impression I apologize. I just stated that your logic based only on brand it's faulty and highly subjective.

The "premium economy large size sedan" segment does not exist....so it does nto exist a "true luxury segment".

You either have compact sedan/luxury compact sedan (alternatively called entry level luxury), midsize sedan and the luxury midsize sedan counterpart and finally large sedan/luxury large sedan

Regardless of brand, the Genesis it's a luxury midsize sedan (probably a large luxury sedan with the new generation) and it belongs to a higher segment than a BMW 3 Series with is a compact luxury sedan or, as said already, alternatively labeled a entry level luxury sedan.

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

I too agree that the Genesis is a luxury mid-to-large size sedan, but with an economy brand Hyundai car tag; and the 3-series is a luxury compact sedan from a true luxury auto brand - BMW.

The major difference between an economy auto brand and a true luxury auto brand is in how much the buyers get when paying the same sum of money; and is applicable to almost every products in life in terms of no-frills/economy brands vs. brand-name/luxury brands.

With Hyundai being an economy brand, the Genesis sedan therefore offers a lot for its money, such as bigger vehicle size and lots of features/amenities that usually associated with luxury vehicles.

On the other hand, being a true luxury brand product, the 3-series offers little for its money, such as small vehicle size and spartan features/amenities, because a sizable portion of the price tag goes into intangible components such as brand status, prestige, and class recognition.

So the price tag of a lavishly equipped Hyundai Genesis large sedan can only buy a sparingly equipped BMW 3-series compact sedan.

Value-wise, the Genesis wins; but prestige-wise, the 3-series wins.

But one thing for sure, even though if the Hyundai Genesis is labelled as a "mid-size luxury sedan", it is never in the same league as the true mid-size luxury sedans occupied by the $50+K RL/RLX/A6/5/E/GS luxury sedans that come from some recognized true luxury auto brands.

Now, I think we've wandered way off topic here.

I don't see this "Hyundai Genesis vs. BMW 3-series" talk has any bearing to the fact that Acura took the bold move of marketing the TL to be a 5-series fighter and failed its mission.

Limelight

saturno_v

Now we finally agree on this, the "prestige factor"....but there is nothing objective about it.....take the badge out and the Genesis is clearly a superior category vehicle compared to a 3 Series.


Frankly I do not think an RL/RLX is any more prestigious than a Genesis....when it comes to BMW, Audi, Lexus, etc... we agree....however, again, "league" is all matter of perception, not objective specs.

MikeTL92

lol
Both of you guys make great points. Just going back to the original topic, the 4g TL definitely is just so good, because of all the features and engine dynamics it offers its public. Specially at its great value, you get a lot with the Sh-awd TL for the price you get it at.

Personally when i decided to purchase my TL 2 years ago i was 20 years old, so considering the price ranges was big to me as well as keeping in mind specs and future maintenance of vehicles. The cars i had in mind bedsides my 2009 TL Sh-awd were the Audi A4, BMW 3-Series and the infinity g37x-drive. well as you can see i chose the TL mainly because of reliability but i test drove the other vehicles as well and the only one that i felt really over powered the TL clearly was the g37, but i just fell in love with the TL's cabin.

On another note i have driven vehicles that are out of the TL's class like a couple Maserati Quattroporte's (06 and '13), and a 2012 BMW 5-series that are owned by my boss and he lets me drive from time to time; To be honest driving these vehicles made me even happier to have purchased my TL, because yes they are great vehicles but i don't feel as if the TL was left far behind AT ALL specially mechanically. The Tl is just so good for its price.

012TL-GLM

You can argue price and prestige, but the 4G TL SH-AWD competes easily with all its German competition within $10K or possibly more. I don't understand why Acura is continually placed with the bottom feeders. I think most making these outrageous accusations have yet to step foot in a BMW. I have access to 3 of them, a 335i, 535D, and a 2010 M5 - that's right, the big V10 baby. Other than the M5 I would take my TL over the 335 and 535 any day of the week. That 535D by the way has just about every option checked, over $80K and the only thing it does better than the TL is gas mileage.

Saying Acura isn't in the same league is simply bullshit. You can differentiate by price all you want, but the 4G offered more bang for the buck than any of the competition. The designers took a risk, and fucked up the aesthetics in many eyes - that is the ONLY bad thing about the 4G (arguably)

Just thought I'd mention, in case you guys haven't seen it - if you go to the gallery on Acura's TLX page, you'll find a picture, and under said picture you'll see what Acura deems as their competition

2015 Acura TLX | Photos, Videos, Exterior, Interior | Acura.com