saturno_v

This past weekend experience, it reinforced my opinion of so much of a great value the 4G TL SH-AWD was in its time (I drive a 6MT)

My wife got a new Infiniti Q50 Sport in September, fully loaded.....very nice car, amazing electronics, quite comfortable....a bit more cramped than my TL but not as cramped as a 3 Series.

Last week we decided to get a second dog, an adorable Lab-Boxer mix puppy.....both dogs would be a quite cramped in the back seat of my wife Infiniti with all the protective cushions.....she would be the one driving them around mostly.

The back seat of my TL is a bit wider but she does not want to go back driving a manual (she traded her STI for the Q50), on top of that my TL is already 4 years old and there is always a good excuse for car shopping

So the idea was for me to get the Q50 and trade my TL either for another large sedan or an SUV....and possibly to buy Japanese for the long term reliability.

The SUV route was the least favorite by my wife.

The cars we tested:


Lexus NX F Sport: One of the nicest SUV on the market, very nice and well executed interiors but on the road it feels like the tarted up Toyota RAV4 that it is, not very sporty. The frumpy looking Lexus RX was a non starter.

Infiniti QX70 Sport: the sportiest of the Jap SUV, some sort of "rising sun Cayenne", very beautiful and aggressive on the outside (for being an SUV) quick, very good fit and finish but somewhat antiquated dashboard...the nav screen it's only 7"...it's just a warmed up FX and I do not feel like paying top dollars for this...I think they should have restyled and updated the interiors a bit more to keep it more modern.

Infiniti Q70 3.7 AWD: Beautiful interiors but same issue with the QX70....tech feels a bit antiquated and Infiniti ask top dollars for this sedan....as for the 5.6 V8 option, even if it's listed on the Infiniti, the salesman told me thy have not seen one...he strongly advised me of not considering the Q70 for my next purchase, that car is at the end of the run and depreciation would be horrendous.

Lexus GS F Sport: Amazing interiors, very nice outside even if a bit conservative. Crisp handling and top level refinement all around. There are very good deals going on right now..the GS F Sport was on our September short list when we got the Q50.

Hyundai Genesis: Fit and finish very nice, the car look way better in presence, it drives not as sporty as the GS, dead quiet, no AWD available on the 5.0 V8, that would have been a killer combo.

No car in current Acura lineup is worth of any consideration in our book...the TLX went too much downmarket, it's down on power and is not that attractive, the RLX...well..do I need to say anything?? , the MDX look a bit weird especially at the back.

Just for kicks we did look at the Chrysler 300 AWD...sorry I cannot do it......for fun we quickly tested the Taurus SHO....excellent engine and brakes, it actually handle good for the size but everything else is plain wrong, the look (inside and outside), fit and finish is only acceptable and Ford service dept horror stories are not encouraging. It is huge on the outside but quite smaller inside, it's based on an ancient Volvo platform from the 1990's, the AWD is the mass market Haldex one even if it has brake based torque vectoring. Antiquate transmission. No amount of lipstick can make that pig attractive.

So I did realize that in order to play in the luxury big midsize sedan market 300+ HP AWD with sporting pretensions sandbox, nicely loaded, you need to fork out 60 grand more or less (even more with the Germans...when I did buy my TL I seriously cross shopped the 535i)

Frankly, as nice and quiet as it is and with more modern electronics, coming from the TL the GS does not wow me that much in the dynamics and performance department, I actually prefer the TL.....

Yes fit and finish is superb but, especially for design, the TL cabin still hold its own very well....obviously electronics are not as advanced and the lack of a big display in the instrument cluster clearly it's a sign of age.

Same for the big Infiniti sedan....amazing interiors but on the road is not that impressive dynamically coming from a TL SH-AWD

If you want to get out of the 300 hp neighborhood in AWD and in a refined package, loaded, you need to spend much more and you need to go German...we are not interested in hybrids...translation, you are looking at the 80-90K ballpark (E550 4MATIC, 550i xdrive, S6, S7, etc...)

Basically I'm almost at the end of the road as far as Japanese brands go. Even if I would make a leap of faith and go the Cadillac route, the CTS V6 AWD cost as much as the Lexus with unknown reliability record.....if you jump to the incredible V-Sport with its twin turbo engine, sorry no AWD!!!


The problem is that if we swap cars (I get the Q50 and my wife get a large sedan/SUV) it delays my plan to eventually get a Nissan GT-R because I would get "stuck" with the just purchased Q50 Sport....not complaining though....

However, considering that my TL had a MSRP of 44K at the time, it represent truly an outstanding value which I do not believe is currently matched by any other car in the marketplace....only the Genesis come close....at discount prices you either get power or refinement or sporty handling, not all of them.

C8N

Why not look at the RDX? It is the only Acura on their current line up I really like. It's a shame they did away with the SH-AWD on it but then again, I would doubt you will be carving up corners on a RDX.

wreak

The RDX is a joke when you compare it to what he's cross-shopping. I haven't been in the recent generation RDX but if it's anything like the last it wasn't a very nice SUV.

Edward'TLS

Get your GT-R first, then let your wife moves over to a bigger-car/SUV in the future.

Brock79

The CTS sport and CTS V are two different cars and the V is on a different planet as far as performance from the cars you listed. The SHO I agree is large on the outside and smaller feeling on the inside, but no smaller than a 5 series and is larger than the TL. Also the SHO comes standard with more options than the TL ever dreamed about and has features the TLX isn't even offered with. The fit and finish is on par with the TL, I bet the TL will last longer though. The SHO has a pretty decent aftermarket support and you can be in the 420 HP range for under 2grand.

I have a 2011 TL SH AWD and a 2013 SHO, guess which one I drive the most.

012TL-GLM

I agree with your assessment Saturno_V

While they probably aren't cross shopped much if I had to trade in my TL today it would be for a grand cherokee SRT - luckily I plan to keep the TL for many years.

Our 2nd vehicle is a 2010 MDX. Great vehicle, although the MPG is as bad as a truck. I like the 2nd gen aesthetics much more than current. The new MDX looks like a minivan

I'm anxiously awaiting the refresh of the RDX. There are a lot of rumors flying around that it will get trickle down tech from the MDX, and that SH-AWD will make a return.

My GF (I should probably just call her wife, we've been together 13 years) and I went thru all the test driving earlier this year. She was ready to kill me. Although on the small side we both liked the Audi SQ5, and thought the price point was decent. We too are skeptic of German reliability. I can't stand the Lexus RX, and Infiniti while nice just isn't my style.

Hoping to get at least a decade out of my TL, by then maybe Toyota will have brought the Supra back

mylove4cars

Well, well, well; I thought you assembled multiple of my posts, haha this is funny I just purchased a GT-R the deals on the GT-R are great right now. I'll keep my 2011 Tl SH-AWD as my daily driver. And you are right on the money, for the same the TL offers you need to pay much more $$ Lol


Good luck, shopping

saturno_v

I do not agree on few points...the fit and finish on the TL is clearly superior compared to the SHO and the TL rides on a much more refined platform and you can feel it right away just driving it....however, the SHO is rather impressive for the money and the 3.5 ecoboost engine is a jewel...but the superior refinement of the TL come out at every curve....


Definitely Ford did the best they could with what they had to work with.

Brock79

You could always go with Lincolns version of the SHO. Also the D3 platform was first introduced in 2005, it's not an old Volvo platform. It's derived from a 1999 volvo platform. The TL leaves a lot to be desired for the price of the car. I don't think it would have been to much to ask for a power tilt/telescope steering wheel.

I agree with the SRT jeep but they are pretty pricey brand new and the fuel bill goes up with that suv as well.

liquidneon

Nice write up. This is what I'm afraid of.
I want a large sedan, powerful (300+ HP), AWD... and to make it even more impossible... MANUAL transmission is mandatory

Will be very difficult when the time comes for an upgrade.

liquidneon

Always talking about how great the SHO is.

RCJD

Excellent post saturno_v
I have been thinking of trading to TLX but Im not yet convinced that its better than my TL-AWD, still waiting for TLX-S

Mekkanox

I haven't been on Acurazine in months, yet Brock79 doesn't let me down. At least he's consistent.

JM2010 SH-AWD

I agree with your observations of the TL versus other competition.


Have you tried the RLX Sport Hybrid? It's getting rave reviews from those who own one, but of course it's over $60K.

saturno_v

Personally, I think the TLX is clear a step down from the 4G TL...sure it has updated electronics, the same you can find on a Ford Fusion...I talk about the overall feel.

saturno_v

I have no problem playing in the 60K neighborhood, my wife Q50 Sport MSRP was already 56K...just an observation of how much of a great deal the TL was.

I cannot stomach the bland style of the RLX and I'm not interested in an hybrid.

I pretty much do not care about all the current Acura lineup.

csmeance

After driving the new TLX 3.5L for a few days as a loaner vehicle for my 4G TL, I'm pretty much sold on it besides a few flaws:
1. 9spd transmission is shifting harsh with 2.5K miles on the car
2. Car is a little to soft yet bumpy over rough terrain
3. Touchscreen/infotainment aren't that much improved over the 4G
4. Shallower trunk (can't fit luggage in as well

If those were fixed I'd buy it in a heartbeat, Acura reliability with new technology and a FUN car to drive! Even in Econ mode it's way more fun than my 4G to drive and throw around.

Brock79

I'm entitled to my opinion, you don't have to like it. The OP is entitled to his as well. There was no name calling or insults between the OP or me or on this thread at all, so I don't know what you are getting at.

A few things that bother me with the fit and finish of the TL are the raised stitching in several areas. I hate that feeling on my hands, I don't know why but I do. The huge gaps between the dash and door, Acura could have tightened that area up. That's something you would see in a cheaper car. The foam insulation every time you open the door, that could have been dressed up nicer as well. The rattles, if the fit and finish was above the SHO it wouldn't have so many rattles. My SHO has absolutely zero rattles. If the fit was so good in the TL there would be no rattles. The giant gas pedal looks like something out of a toy car, the SH AWD should have came with sportier pedals.

wreak

Brock I agree with some of your issues with the interior of the TL and have no issue with you praising the SHO. Like you said you're entitled to your own opinion and you kept it respectful. I still think you should sell your TL though, you don't seem to be much of a fan of it.

012TL-GLM

Not trying to call you on the carpet Brock but I believe you have a 2011 TL and many of the issues you've expressed were corrected/improved at MMC for the '12 model. I think you'd have a different perspective if you spent some time in a 12-14 TL

Brock79

I have been in a few of the updated models, I even drove a few when I was looking to buy my TL. I really can't comment on the rattle issues, because I didn't really notice them, not even in mine. I guess I was paying attention to other things. The interior is the same in both the 09-11 and 12-14, so I don't think Acura fixed the door gap or the stitching. They might have covered the foam up, that I have no idea about. As for the rattles, I know the plastic over my gauges rattled like crazy, I put a small piece of black paper folded up into the gap between the plastic and black trim on the outside. It fixed that rattle but there are others. A 40k plus car shouldn't have rattles, neither should the RLX but it has plenty as well. I guess it's an Acura thing?

jim_c

Oh gosh. Problems of the rich!!!!

Brock79

I went to trade it in a few times, but since I had the car repainted and even the paper work to prove it was a factory defect and the car wasn't in an accident, all the dealers treat it like a wrecked car. So the trade in value is about 4 grand less than it should be. I have called Acura customer service several times and they say the same thing every time. "It was covered under warranty" when I ask where the difference for the money is going to come from, I get that answer, when I ask why did I have to go to the dealer 12 times and who is going to pay for the gas and my time, I get that warranty answer. Yet none of that stuff is covered at all, the repaint was but nothing else, I don't know where those people get that crap from.

012TL-GLM

I think rattles have been a common occurrence in Honda/Acura for quite a while. My '12 SH-AWD is tight as a drum. Fit/Finish second to none, and no rattles after 3 years and 34K miles. Our 2010 MDX on the other hand gets a slight rattle in the bezel around the stereo controls. It usually shows up over 80mph, and all I have to do is touch it and it stops, usually for weeks at a time.

JM2010 SH-AWD

^^ Mine's pretty tight too, after 30K miles. Had a small sunroof rattle in the first year, but the dealer fixed that first time in by putting grease on the roof tracks. Subsequently I have had a little rattle in the glove box lid when it's pretty warm out. I think that was introduced when the dealer had to take apart the HVAC ducting to remove the bedding of a mouse who had tried to camp out in the ductwork! It's only occasionally noticeable - some day, I'll take it in when it reoccurs. Other than those, solid as a brick.


BTW, we bought a '13 Accord (great family car); it's been super tight after two years. No noticeable rattles or buzzes.

mylove4cars

I don't think so, I think it's Brock not the 2011 TL - AcuraZine Community - View Poll Results

saturno_v

Brock, everybody is entitled to their own opinion but not to their own fact.

The TL is simply a better built and more refined (from an engineering/perfomance standpoint) automobile compared to the SHO....it is noticeable in the fit and finish, the way the car drives, the materials used.

The only thing really impressive about the SHO is the excellent ecoboost 3.5 V6 but almost all the rest of the car it's just ok with touches of so so.

Seats are very good (not as supportive as the TL in the front) but the touch feel of the plastic parts is definitely more utilitarian than the TL. Look at the texturing and design of the door panels. Assembly precision is inferior too.
The TL, for example, has fully encapsulated door depth walls...not even a 5 Series has that.

Try this simple "experiment"...push with your index finger the sunglasses holder lid of the ceiling just above the rear view mirror...in the TL and in the SHO...the SHO is very flimsy and the entire central part of the ceiling front slightly deform under pressure...in the TL is way more solid, no felt/visible deformation at all....I noticed this by chance when I was test driving the SHO....made me think....

Look at the amount of light materials used for the body and the suspension...look at the suspension geometry compared to the SHO.

The SHO uses the rather pedestrian Haldex AWD system, the SH-AWD setup is head and shoulder above (full time vs. part time, Torque Vectoring, quicker response time, etc...)

I'm sorry you had a problem with you TL but almost everybody I know that own a 4G TL is extremely satisfied and had a rattle free experience...e lemon can happen with any brand.


Again, I praise Ford to actually make that elephant dance at least up to a point but is not TL...a short stretch of twisty road make that extremely evident.


Now, a future Taurus SHO based on the enlarged and further stiffened Fusion platform would be extremely tempting (including from the design perspective) if Ford keep that engine and offer a better /more modern automatic....


Merry Christmas!!!

Edward'TLS

Acura > Ford.

Brock79

The sunglasses holders are pretty much identical in feel and anything else to do with them.
Now try this, drive with your elbow on the door of your TL the upper black piece just below the window. Not the actual rubber liner against the window. Tell me how that feels on your elbow after 20 minutes, also let me know about the small dent left there, I have a permanent dent in my TL. The SHO has a much softer cushion area there and no dent/impression. The AWD drive in the SHO has been praised more than the TL's has. The only place people praise it and put it above all others is on this forum. I posted several links not to long ago from various independent companies that tested out AWD sedans and how the AWD system performed, be it in snow, rain or dry pavement. Guess which car didn't make the top 10 every time, it wasn't the SHO. The TL actually never broke the top 5 but the SHO did several times. So you can have all the computers and gizmos you want and let every one on this forum and at Honda/Acura tell you how good the AWD is on the TL, but in real world testing it's just not really that great when compared to others with AWD.

I'm not trying to put down the TL but being realistic about it. I have noticed many AWD TL owners on here have come from inferior cars before they purchased the TL, so I get why it feels so great and many members love it. When you have owned a few other nice cars and even own others to compare it to. That's when you see the TLs faults. The biggest gripe is the tech the car actually has that is and was behind cheaper cars build during the same time span. When Acura updated the TL in 2012, the entire electronics package should have gotten the treatment as well.

I still believe the Acura will last longer than the SHO, but as far as fit and finish go, they are on the same page. You are talking about a design in Acura from 2009 and a design from Ford in 2013, the 2010-12 SHO was a sloppier version and the fit and finish wasn't there. Ford cleaned it up in the 2013 refresh. Acura should take a page put of Fords book here on how to do a refresh, a few pieces of plastic just doesn't cut it.

Brock79

Later on I will post a pic of my TL's front driver seat and my SHO front driver seat, you can then tell me all you want how great the fit and finish and material used on the TL is far superior to the SHO.

saturno_v

Many of the people I know outside and within the forum had BMW and Infiniti before. I owned BMW, Audi, currently we own an Infiniti and shopping for a Lexus or another Infiniti.

The TL has been butchered by the media for its style but the dynamic capabilities of the SH-AWD, especially in 6 speed have been almost universally praised....if anything, the independent reviews of the TL that I read/watched outside of the mainstream media have been actually more positive.

Here the TL pitted against an Audi A7 and the TL being the overall winner of the comparo....would love to see something like that with an SHO...


One of the Forum member, Jic6 I believe his name is, currently drives a BMW 550i and actually said that the TL SH-AWD which his wife currently own is the sportier sedan between the two.

My wife is not exactly a car expert but after setting foot on an SHO for our test drive said immediately that the car did not feel as refined and plush as my TL or her Infiniti Q50 Sport...and I believe she is right.

Finally, quite few TL SH-AWD owners have cross shopped the 5 Series so I think the "low expectation, coming from an inferior vehicle" theory is very weak if not laughable.

MisterZDX

Totally agree with this. Same with the RL refresh. No way in hell should the 09-12 RL stilll have the same dated DVD based nav system as the 05-08. It always puzzled me why Acura likes to wait until a full model redesign to update features. We only get a tweaked front bumper, minor changes to the rear, and the interior almost always stays 99% the same. Look at what Toyota did with the new Camry and what Mazda did to the new Mazda6. Gone are the days when automakers can wait a full 5 to 6 years without any major changes. Hope they learned from the RLX and 2016 models will bring wonderful changes.

Brock79

Let's see you spent 10 minutes in a SHO, I have spent over 29k miles in one as well as 9k miles in my TL. I believe I would have noticed the pros and cons of both cars before you would. Yes there are immediate ones that you noticed, but not the ones that you find over time.

Most people on here seem to cross shop the 3 series and TL not the 5 series. They aren't even priced in the same ballpark. Although I did shop for the 5 series and there was a big difference in price. Used 2011 5 series were going for high 30ks into the 40s with low mileage. That puts you into a new 2014 tl.

As for the inferior car statement, that has nothing to do with cross shopping. If you owned a 2002 front wheel drive econobox and are now looking for a serious uparade and you land in a awd TL, then yea you are going to praise the hell out of it and even more when you are paying more money then you were on the last car.

saturno_v

I spent more than half hour driving a SHO in two different occasions...enough time to let me decide about not even considering one.

I did look couple of weeks ago at a 2012 550i loaded almost to the max (MSRP 80K+), currently asking price 43K....

Again, quite few TL Owners (especially SH-AWD) cross shopped the 5 Series, not the 3 Series...ask around on this forum.

I do not believe FWD econobox drivers usually jump to buy a brand new TL or an SHO for that matter....

Limelight

Haven't been on this forum in a long time. Sold my 12 TL Elite in March because I got a company car after switching jobs. Ended up changing jobs again and needed a new car quickly - I kinda fell into a 14 Nissan Altima 3.5SL. Nice car but don't love it like I did the TL.

Sitting here in bed with the flu over Christmas and thought I'd check out Azine. It really is a great forum with mainly good dudes and dialogue.

So my dilemma is do I replace the Altima with something more. OP mentioned the Genesis but I've looking at a very lightly used 12 Equus. Very luxurious ride with 429 HP RWD set up. They hardly sell so you can pick one up for a big discount off MSRP.

OP - would you consider the Equus? It won't have the driving dynamics of SH-AWD but it's more of a luxury cruiser than a sports sedan.

Curious to know what you all think of the Equus. I love the exclusivity of the car, but I worry it's like buying a suit at Wal-Mart and acting like you're the boss....

2012wagon

^^ Didn't know Walmart sold suits.

Best thing about the Equus is that you get a free Ipad with the purchase of the car.

csmeance

The TL competes directly with the 5 series, the ILX is the 3 series competitor

I got into a 550i for a while and had to get rid of it, I went through 3-4 sets of injectors and spark plugs and then the trans started to let go. This happened over the course of 5K miles (40K-45K on the car). This is precisely why I came back to acura, I hated dealing with BMW literally once a week!

:Agree: avoid the 550 like the plauge, 535 is nice but now it's tech is outdated and the ZF 8-spd is dropping like bricks!

The Equus is a great car! I test drove one and found it to not "carry it's size" very well. You could tell you were driving a very big car. I have a 760Li and it feels like I'm driving a 5 series most of the time. The only time I feel the heft is when I'm trying to make a sharp turn and the weight of the V12 causes a little bit of plowing.

If you aren't that performance oriented, the Equus is a great purchase. It drives amazingly well on the highway and in the city. But once it gets pushed you can see that it's a giant, soft marshmallow.

The Genesis is a lot better in that respect but I wasn't a fan of how it drove, I felt very disconnected. The 5.0 R-spec may be a bit better.


What frightened me about Hyundai's Genesis and Equus was the sheer amount of electronics that could go bad & then how my service visits would be. With my 760, about 10K of warranty repairs was electronic in the past 5 years not including the 3-5K BMW spent fixing the Auto Trunk feature multiple times. BMW treated me very well but I was constantly back at the dealership once a month with some sort of issue.

012TL-GLM

I never get tired of watching that video Saturno - he sums up the TL perfectly - the value simply can't be beat in this class. Interesting enough, I watched a few other videos posted about the TL that linked off that video, this one was very interesting - they state a 0-60 of 5.5 seconds in the 6spd auto - I only post it because there has been so much debate about the difference between the 5 and 6 speed autos

saturno_v

The TL (especially the SH-AWD) is such an incredible value because it's a blend of performance and refinement....usually in cars that lean on the side of value proposition you do not get both....

It can punch above its price tag waistline. Sadly, in my opinion Acura no longer offers models so strong in the value department...the company decided to increase its profit margins and it is totally understandable.

Mekkanox

I meant no disrespect, and it was a light-hearted jab at how you're both critical and appreciative of the TL at times. Let the jimmies unrustle...