graphicguy

All cars are compromises (well, maybe not something like a Bugatti Veyron). Audis, Benzs, Infinitis, BMWs....all of them are compromises, just like the TL.

Frankly, if I felt the same some of you do who post here about the TL, I'm really surprised you bought the car to begin with.

That said, you'd be hard pressed to find another luxury sports sedan, with the combination of performance, innovative features, safety, reliability, refinement, quality of materials/build, comfort, for the price as you will in the TL. You might find a car that exceeds the TL in one or two of those categories, but not all of them, and not for the price.

Closest would be the G37x. There again, the G has its own set of compromises (ones that I found were better in the TL).

I've only glanced at the interiors of the new BMWs. Last one I had was in '06. The interiors don't look like they've changed all that much. I considered them bland then, and I consider them bland now. iDrive? I don't care how much work they've done on it. It was poorly conceived. BMW refuses to admit to that fact, and keep trying to redo it. It's still a big "fail". Still, it was a nice car....with its own set of compromises.

I could go on, but we bought the TL for its virtues, not its compromises.

compewterbleu

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName A VW VR6...enuff said about that. Enjoy your 3G.

He doesn't even own a 4G.

graphicguy

I've kind of shied away from VWs/Audis because of their spotty reliability. Regardless of how good a car is (or isn't), nothing irritates me more than hauling a car into the dealership all the time.

Pete2010

Careful, you'll be confused for a rabid fanboy who only buys Acura without considering other brands.... At least we know what we want and like.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

That doesn't matter. I have more than enough experience with them.

The VR6 is a really nice engine.

TechnoCat

I agree with almost all of your post (despite selective snipping.) The two bits I disagree with are:

• I am very consistent in agreeing that the TL provides exceptional performance for the money, and presumably reliability (though I never had any trouble with Audis, while some people have had lots of trouble with them.)
• I don't want a car that is a "good overall product" for every purpose. If I want an SUV, I get an SUV (have one.) If I want a racing bike, why get a mountain bike? (Have one of each.) I want the TL to do well what it claims and is sold as doing well... be a luxury (the "Smart" term is only a few months old) sports sedan.

FWIW, I did have my priorities straight. The things that annoy me - and not enough to trade it in yet - are things that don't show in a test drive... the head restraint pain being #1, the rattles being #2, the sunroof noise or the iPod lack-of-search probably in the top few. And it simply didn't occur to me that the rear seats wouldn't fold (though it's not really a big deal for me.) The top priorities (general performance, AWD, seats four comfortably, leather interior, sound system, 6MT) it meets well... and so do BWM, Audi, Mercedes and some cars from Lexus, Infiniti, Saab and Volvo. That's the trouble for Acura... they aren't alone in this niche. They hit it well, but so do the others.

Pete2010

Not to go too far off topic, but why does BMW charge for rear seat fold down? Wouldn't it be cheaper for them to make all 5-series have a fold down rear seat instead of needing to tool their plants for both options? Anyone have more info about this?

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

No one said it was impossible, and obviously it is possible.

The only area I can think of is in terms of maintenance costs.
Yes, even with the sunroof the smaller 2010 5-Series has more room than any TL; the 2011 goes even further. Power and features? That's value, and I think you know the answer to that one. It's not really a point since they aren't competitors. Could you say a 7-Series is a better value than a Maybach because of that? No, value only applies to competitors.

In mpg the 2010 535xi is rated 16/24, but then again it's a lot quicker transmission for transmission (read: auto for auto, manual for manual).

Yes the 5-Series handles better. Proof you probably haven't driven one. You also then probably aren't aware of the FEEL it gives the driver in feedback that you don't get with the numb TL's steering.

So none of that handling business is right either. Also, that's still not including the 2011 which is better in every conceivable way to the 2010.

I disagree. I think there are many vehicles I could've gotten for the money of my TL and I wouldn't miss my TL, but it doesn't mean I made the wrong decision.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Generally about $475 for a folding rear seat.

They do it both ways because in place the body can be made more rigid (handling ftw).

graphicguy

pete....I've owned and test driven quote a few others in the same market as the TL. I've given my impressions of them all in another post, but they included the BMW 3/5, Audi A4/5, Benz C300 4matic, CTS, Taurus SHO, and the G37x. It took me probably 2+ months to drive everything I was considering.

I've owned a couple of BMWs in the past.

I chose the TL (my 2nd one).

I don't know if that makes me a fan boy. My original experience with the 4G wasn't good. Things turned out for the best and I'm very pleased with my purchase. I made the right choice out of all the others I was considering.

However, it sounds like some have buyer's remorse with their 4Gs. Fact is, Someone, somewhere, is always going to find fault with any car. All I know is that every time I get in and drive my TL, I feel even better about my decision to get it over the others I had driven.

TechnoCat

That's another way of saying, "Only the TL has the specific exact precise combination of features and value that you can find in a TL".
It's true, but the same thing is true of every other car model.

For example, because the TL has omitted many luxury features standard in the Audi A4 Quattro, that sentence applies to the A4 even though the TL is both larger and faster. Same with the BMW.

Where your sentence really falls down is that you said "find another luxury sports sedan". The TL primarily falls on luxury. It's got sports and sedan nailed, but the small touches make the luxury, and you can't be "Smart" luxury and "Luxury" at the same time.

graphicguy

techno.....I looked at the A4. I found that it omitted many features the TL included. As a simple example, the finishing touches the TL has that the Audi doesn't like the nice chrome finishing on the TL's door handles, or the cover for the TL's cup holders. There are others, but those are just two examples. Plus, I could only get the A4 in a 4 cyl. Plus, I tried for a month to find either an A4 or 5 with the Prestige package. If there were any within a 150 mile radius of me, I couldn't find one.

So, I guess if you're looking for an Audi's feature set, the Audi store is where you want to be.

If you're looking for the TL's feature set, then the Acura store is where you want to head.

Personally, I found the VW CC to be more compelling than the Audi A4. Liked the TL better than either of those, however.

Given like-for-like (price, features, performance, etc), I wouldn't buy an Acura if I really wanted an Audi, or a BMW. or etc).

Pete2010

I'll give you this one. This is a sports sedan with luxury touches, flat out. I would consider it to be "entry-level lux", not Luxury. I consider luxury items that are not included standard on most cars, Quality Leather Interior, Voice controlled Nav, Keyless start, Rearview camera. Things that normally you pay more for on other brands. Things beyond standard. It has Luxury touches, but it not a full blown Luxury Car.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone the A4 is at all the best vehicle for this type, but I am curious as to what omitted features you are referring to.

The A4 has an available adaptive suspension (and steering, brakes, transmission), blind spot monitoring, adaptive cruise, sun shades, triple zone climate control, not to mention the Bang&Olufsen audio. There are also things I'd categorize as "other", such as the real wood, the general material quality, the little touches like six levels of seat heating, that kind of stuff.

Some people don't like chrome touches, and I am one of them.

I did enjoy the power and style of the CC VR6 compared to the A4....

docboy

+1

I totally agree. In fact, I'll even go one step further and say the 4G TL 6MT is IMHO very sporty, almost sports car like, with some luxury touches and a well executed interior design.

JM2010 SH-AWD

All of this talk of how there's no way the TL matches the 5-series on features, performance, room, etc. prompted me to take a look at the BMW website for the 5-Series (I guess the new model, but I didn't look closely enough).

I don't have the time to do an exhaustive report - it would be fun someday - but a quick look at BMW's own comparison information (which is flawed in a number of respects - e.g., TL = no remote trunk release or 6MT available), shows that it's hardly a slam dunk in favor of the 5. The BMW has certain features the TL lacks and vice versa (or they're optional on the 5 - e.g., leather). The BMW has more interior room by some measurements than the TL and vice versa as to other measurements. BMW hasn't posted performance data for the car, but the most recent I could quickly find (Car&Driver test of '09 535 w/ 6MT) shows a 5.2 0-60 time for the car - same as C/D's time for the 6MT TL.

So, I just don't buy this oft-stated presumption that the 5 Series is in a different league than the TL. Yes, it's at least 6K more expensive, so you'd expect it to be significantly better, but BMW's specs (and C/D's) don't necessarily bear that out.

But to each his own. It's great that we have the choices we do in this segment, and we all draw our own conclusions and make our own choices in light of our individual preferences and priorities. Let's just hope that these types of cars continue to be available as the MPG requirements get tighter and tighter. And that we can continue to debate their merits/demerits for a long time.

graphicguy

JM...I looked at a heavily discounted 2010 535i xDrive optioned like for like with the TL SH AWD. I was looking at $10K off the BMW, bringin it a little over $50K. That's a $10K premium over the TL SH AWD. A 2011 535i xDrive is going to be about $20K over the TL SH AWD for what amounts to a mile refresh. Even the 335i xDrive was at least $7K more than the TL SH AWD optioned like-for-like. I liked the size of the 5 series. No way I liked the interior better. And, no way some of the tech features (iDrive) worked nearly as well as they did in the TL SH AWD.

Add the big price differential, and it's clear who's really paiying for the "no charge" maintenance and the differential in German and U.S. wages.

winstrolvtec

It's not Acura's or anyone elses fault that you didn't realize it was not up to YOUR luxury or just general standards. No one forced you to buy the car. That's the other thing, where you have a problem with the vehicle others may not and how you find other entry level luxury sedans to be so much more luxurious there is almost an entire board here who doesn't.

No one is really right or wrong because the whole luxury theme is largely subjective and if you have issues with the car know that they are your issues with the car as mine and someone else's will, can be, and often are different. Just the same so is the case for most of the advantages. That's why I can't stress enough that it is important to simply get what works the best for oneself.

I want the TL to improve in areas as well but I also don't want it to get to the point where they have to charge $60k to get it there like other brands do. IMO the TL is in a sweet spot as far as everything that it offers in relation to it's price and going rates.

As you have pointed out for your priorties there were and are several other options and that is a good thing but for some of us there continues to not be much of a contest and that is obviously a good thing too. Acura is not alone but neither are any of the other brands or their cars so I don't know how it is trouble for only Acura. I question why you would even word it that way? Sounds like they are all in trouble if you ask me.

winstrolvtec

You can come up with more than long term cost of maintenance. There is resale, crash test ratings, reliability, and cost or potential value proposition. I am talking about main, broad based, categories and not technical details, to be clear.

The TL has 90% of the features and all of the power and performance in the same size range, for $20k less. That is real value, which can present itself in how ever the consumer sees it. No they are not necessarily direct competitors especially with the 2011 out but the TL competes as both an entry and a mid and it is as large a mid sized sedan so they can easily be cross shopped, especially when you compare a base, stock 528 and TL SH at similar price points.

It does have a great transmission but isn't that much more capable than the TL. Compare AWD to AWD and you see barely any advantage in the 10' 6AT vs the TL 5AT which would be equal if they had the same gears and there no difference in 6MT.

The 08'-10' 535 i, xi or whatever, does not handle better, it's no M. Both of which I have driven and a colleague of mine owns a 535xi 6AT. It FEELS like it handles better and inspires more confidence but it does not lap like the SH does, there is no active vectoring. The SH outlaps the faster, more power, smaller and lighter variant in the 3 series, of course it outdoes the former 5 series. The 2011 should change this. The TL's steering is light not numb, there is a difference. It is actually as responsive and direct if not more. Compare the electric steering version of BMW instead and Acura's is often deemed superior.

I was talking about TechnoCat over there, who has said, at times, that he feels he would have been better off with something else, not that he wouldn't miss his TL. Those are different things.

compewterbleu

All I know is where I work I see more new ones entering the facilities. 1 has the grille painted and the other regular. By looks of the paper tags they are new purchases or leases. I then passed by 2 more, one in the parking lot. The owner, female, made the comment nice car to me as I parked.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

No one said the 5-Series had more standard features but it certainlys offers many more. It comes at a cost, no doubt.

And in performance someone is nuts if they think the 535 is going to lose. The E60 535xi automatic ran 0-60 in 5.4 seconds and the gap only widened from there.

Like Pete said in his review of the new 2011 535: "This car just blows away my TL in so many respects it's not even funny." And his TL is a loaded AWD model.

I haven't driven the F10 but I've driven the E60 and it's already handily superior to the TL, and from the looks of it the F10 is handily superior to the E60.

So yes the 5-Series costs a lot more. But you know what, people love throwing the You Get What You Pay For slogan around here and it damn sure applies here.

TechnoCat

The chrome turned me off, as did the beak (which the dealer had to get painted.) But I do agree with you on the 4-cylinder. That's the main reason I'm in a TL.

Yes, you should ideally wind up in the store that has precisely what you want. The closest car for my purposes was probably the BMW 335ix manual, but it wasn't in stock anywhere and time was short.

JM2010 SH-AWD

All I can tell you is what Car and Driver reported (the most recent 535 test I could quickly find): 535 6MT - 0 to 60=5.2. These are the exact times Car and Driver (and Road and Track) clocked for the TL 6MT. Don't know what else to say.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Has the 5-Series done crash testing officially yet? And it's too early to see how its reliability turns out. So neither are points you can actually hold to it.

Even if that was true are you serious? You're gonna use CRASH TEST RATINGS as a legitimate point? That just goes to show the kind of straws one has to pull to make the TL an actual equal to the 5-Series.

You can call it value, I call it getting what you pay for. You pay more for the BMW and get more. And anyway the TL lacks features compared to other vehicles at its own price point, much less vehicles on the 5-Series' price tier.

I haven't seen any performance figures for the F10 535 so I don't know what you're talking about. Of course the automatic E60 raped the automatic TL so the difference should be similar.

And if you bring a 6MT TL in you bring a 6MT 5 into the game, plain and simple. This is all before you get to things like passing power, where this ISN'T a comparison.

Well at least you admit it, the 2011 pulls away.

As for the steering, no way. It's numb; thank you electric steering. It's nowhere near the level of the standard 5-Series' steering. Now you can get a crappy steering option on the BMW as well but thankfully you don't have to option it. Makes it as bad as the TL's.

Grass is always greener I guess?

TechnoCat

In a smallish table, this is absolutely true. In an even smaller table, the Kia Rio is equivalent to the TL:
The 5-Series has many many features the TL lacks, just as the A4 does at the lower price point (again, folding seats, flocked/padded cubbies, etc.) And the TL has features, presumably, that the 5-series lacks; I'd guess the ability to have both iPod and Aux alive without changing a cable would be one. Comparing with a small amount of data just isn't going to be accurate, and enough data would be overwhelming.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Was is a 535xi 6MT or a RWD, which simply doesn't have the traction off the line that a TL would have?

According to C/D's site the TL 6MT did 0-100 in 13.5, 13.0 for a RWD 535i 6MT. Not a good enough data point because I don't know what the shift points of the two are, but I did notice this:

0-100
535xi auto: 24.2
TL SH-AWD auto: 35.4

winstrolvtec

I was always speaking of the 08'-10', where the TL is better in comparison. It's not grasping for straws, it's they expect me to pay for what they call $20k of extra luxury, refinement, and a few features, so it had better have the same reliability track record, resale and crash test ability before I think about it but that is my opinon. I never said it was equal or that it wasn't, I'm pointing out where it is better and comparable for $20k less and those things work for me so the car works for me but that is not the case for everyone.

So do several other cars, this is not an Acura or TL exclusive. Getting a mid sized luxury sedan in the same size and price range as the TL SH, like an A6 3.2 FWD or BMW 528, proves to cost more money, have less power and overall performance, even less features than the TL does, not to mention what was already mentioned and the list goes on. So those cars have even less features than the TL and other well equipped entry level sedans in the same price range as well.

Again, I am not talking about the F10 since it is not currently available in an AWD plus it's brand new where the TL is almost on it's 3rd year now. Just want to be clear, a comparison is not really what I am getting at, it's more like I don't expect the world for $20k less and that is why the TL works for me but I expect more for $20k more in something like a 5 series but to be fair the 11' looks to be worth the money way more than the 08'-10' and I look forward to checking out the AWD model when it's available.

Again the 6MT's #'s are the same. We are talking about two very similar sized, weighing, powered, and performing vehicles, there is no such thing as a massive passing advantage when they are driven the same way. Only in a way no one drives which is strict high gear runs from low rpm points or over 100 mph. When both cars use all their gears and their entire powerbands as you do and can do in normal driving situations there is no performance difference that is why the #'s are the same.

Sure more low end means less frequent gear changes and means you don't have to hit the gas as much for normal everday driving situation but in this situation, outside of that there is not much difference.

It's not on the same weighted level but as far as everything else goes, it's there. Everyone is different, I don't really prefer a heavier or lighter feel, both are welcome in my book but it's more about how direct and responsive it is as well as how compact the steering wheel is and how it feels and fits in hand. The tighter feeling on electric at higher speeds is a great change IMO compared to the normal lighter at high speed feel of hydraulic but that's just me.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

You know as well as I that both are superbly safe vehicles and crash test results really aren't a point of discussion. I bet the percentage of TL owners on AZ here that made their decision based on safety compared to any competing sedans is less than five percent. It's just not a point worth much of anything and you know it.

Less in overall performance compared to a 10K less TL still does not make them inferior vehicles. Unlike the TL they are not gussied up family sedans and they NEVER make you think that. Their interiors are still a class above.

But again, they aren't competitors so they can't be compared. The TL has few actual competitors. You might say the CTS is a competitor, or the new 9-5, perhaps the Genesis. Different personalities but all are roomy or very roomy sedans for that kind of money.

Well they're both the new generation of middle child sedans from each make and are less than two years apart from the time they hit the showrooms. That's what puts the old 2010 5-Series at a disadvantage because it's the old generation.

I haven't seen any proof the 6MTs are the same AWD for AWD, but we DO know that AWD auto for AWD auto the 5-Series does some serious stomping.

Plus we've had this discussion before: just because Car A is as quick through the quarter as Car B does not mean it's as quick in the real world, like on a highway or if you need to hit it at 30 mph. Again you know the truth, that the 5-Series is quicker here.

That's actually mighty important. Midrange is what we use every day. How often do you dump your clutch from a stoplight to gun down another car? I bet it isn't anywhere near as often as you needing to get in *that* lane up *there* on the highway or something of that nature.

winstrolvtec

It's no less part of the discussion than features or anything else negative anyone has to say about the TL instead. I brought it up so it's part of my discussion. Maybe not all by itself it's not worth much but for $20k more best comparably equipped, I expect the same level of crash test, reliabilty, and resale as a fancy Honda.

I never said they were inferior and the interiors may be a lot better to you but not so much or at all to me. It's largely subjective. My TL doesn't make me feel like it's a gussied up anything but we can argue OPINIONS all day. Again that is more of my original point.

I agree, the TL fits into a niche category with only few others.

The TL is also a half a gen old as well. So it too is at a disadvantage compared to the new 5. When the next one comes we can compare that as well because it falls into the middle of the gen cyle.

The 5 RWD that you used ran slower than the another TL SH test. The 5 ran 13.8@102, the TL 13.7@102.5, which would have also made it a faster 0-100 car. I was unable to find 6MT AWD test results and the AT AWD runs like 14 flat @ 101 and the TL 5AT with one less gear has done 14.3 @99. So 99 and 101 from varying test results are in line but we can go back and forth all day, the data is enough to clearly suggest that the TL even the 5AT is as capable for a lot less.

It's even closer in the 6MT's since it's better comparison and 0-130 in the 6MT's are also in line with the 5 being a RWD and the TL AWD, on the AT the TL's lack of extra gear kills anything over 100 mph since it uses a overly tall 5th to compensate. For everyday driving and less than 100 mph that is still very similar, you may need to gas the TL a bit more with less low end but that's all that differs in that type of situation. .1 or .2 of a second to label either faster or better is inconsclusive but that is not really the point. The real point has already been proven.

There is nothing wrong with the TL mid range in comparison. If one tester dumped the clutch which is not even possible on the TL another did that for the 5 as well. If all that is required is to give a little more gas or downshift because the different engine characteritics than that's quite normal for everyday driving. If traps are in line, usually passing power is too.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

But since there's no 6MT AWD 535 test one can't say with certainty.

You know this. I know this. Everyone else knows this.

And you saw the numbers I posted. By 130 mph the BMW AWD auto is about NINE seconds ahead of the Acura AWD auto. Just goes to show how hard the BMW is pulling when the short distance numbers don't seem so different. With each having manuals you could expect a similar disparity.

The 535 is quicker. It's not even a debate. < From here on out that's all I'll post on drag racing discussions concerning these two if you wish to continue "debating" it.

No it isn't. Wait, remember? The 535 is quicker. It's not even a debate.

There is nothing wrong with the TL mid range in comparison. If one tester dumped the clutch which is not even possible on the TL another did that for the 5 as well. If all that is required is to give a little more gas or downshift because the different engine characteritics than that's quite normal for everyday driving. If traps are in line, usually passing power is too. [/quote]
No there's nothing wrong with its midrange; the BMW just is that much better.

Pete2010

I typically lots of 535's and TL-SHAWD's on the drag strip.

Not digging on you, but I just find it funny when people compare stats like that. The 5 Series is a much nicer car than the TL, the problem is that it's about 20k nicer. As for who's faster? Who cares, .000001% of the population actually drive their TL's or BMWs enough to find out.

Sadly, too many grey haired old men in 5 series don't drive them they way they were designed.

But to be honest. I would LOVE to see a drag between the 6MT TL and the 6MT 2011 535. I think it would be a dead heat to 60 - and even within .5 sec to 100, at that point I'm sure the BMW would pull away by a significant margin.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

My english must be bad ....

winstrolvtec

Nor can you say with certainty that a 6MT 335xi is faster than a 6MT SH. You can't expect a similar disparity because a 6MT vs 6MT is an equal comparison, a 5AT vs 6AT is not. That's like comparing their 8AT to their 6AT. That extra gear gives the 6AT so much top end advantage. Ask my buddy how fast his 535xi AT is against my 6MT, he will tell you it isn't. Common sense suggest that a 6MT version would be only as fast. To give you the benefit of the doubt, even if it is faster, it will only be like .1 tenth and 1 mph faster in the 1/4 which is nothing and that is still in no way conclusive enough to declare as faster. It is still basically the same level of performance for everday driving and some enjoyability.

None of your argument deducts from my point. The discussion is not about which is faster if you recall. My point is proven and valid and that's all I say regarding this debate because there is no contest for my point. These numbers only support it.

I have to spend $20k more for a same sized BMW with a comparable level of equipment to get only the same type of straightline and overall performance that I can get in a fancy Honda. I can not get that type of performance in the same sized BMW for the same price or slightly more as I can get in a fancy Accord. We are only talking about BMW, the supposed best, lets not even bring up the performance of an E class or others. See, everything is compromised.

So you guys can argue about the TL and how it's so compromised but in many ways and especially considering it's price, it is actually not. Again, depends on what you are looking for.

Marginally at best and not $20k better IMO.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Stop trying to compare a manual car to an automatic in a case such as this one. That's not even reaching for a straw, that's just twisting the facts.

And LOL at you saying it's the very same level of performance. El oh el. But ignorance is bliss I suppose.

Oh yes it does. It did enough that you needed to save face by stepping up to the manual TL to compare the performance (you did that several weeks ago with the TL vs SHO "debate"). Your moves are as predictable as clockwork, sorry.

That's not your summary of the 535 is it? Not only is the BMW quicker in more situations than it isn't, but it gets similar fuel economy, has more room, more features, better interior quality, a quieter ride, better ride quality ....

BMW may be the best in this class but it hardly means that the competitors aren't on the same level. An E-Class or M are also superior products. You'll laugh at that notion and point to the TL's performance in the straight line and handling compared to the MB, but the reality is that the MB offers again more room, features, better interior, smoother ride, quieter ride, etc. etc. etc. etc. The M37 isn't quite as smooth as the TL's engine but it's fine as is and has ALL the advantages I just mentioned (although like the TL AWD the ride isn't that great) and it adds the performance into the mix.

You yourself admit the TL costs less but is less vehicle as a result. There's nothing wrong with that but there IS something wrong with anyone saying it's as good as the strongest competitors in the 5/A6/E bracket.
It isn't a high compromise vehicle unless you compare it to those high ends from above. At 40K you'll give up somewhere, be it interior, room, performance, something. The TL gives up in same ways while others like a 335i or SHO give up in other ways. They're no worse or better because of it.
Yeah, in YOUR opinion, the owner of the TL at this topic's hand. No biased position there right? And in addition to the engine there's a lot of other things that make it arguably 20K better.

winstrolvtec

And why are you comparing a 5AT to 6AT? I have used the 6MT as a comparison from the start because that is what I compared and chose, even against the 535xi, also 6MT, not the TL 5AT which maybe you bring it up because it makes your anti-argument look better but you don't even seem to actually have a valid argument here, maybe you just want to go against anything 4G TL.

I never had to step up, why do you always stray away from the discussion and try to prove some other point and put words in peoples' mouths? My point only invloved the manual and never surrounded the 5AT, which you dragged into the discussion, wasn't me.

Who said that? Did I not only point out how and where the TL is better? Nothing more, nothing less.

Great, so tell me why we are arguing the same points?

That's the thing some of you guys don't seem to get, it's usually only about opinon and that is what it ultimately comes down to. So when someone says the TL is bad in this way or good in another or talks that way about some other car, it means very little (or should) to the next guy cause I am pretty sure he already knows how he feels about it.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

We have no info on 535 6MT performance so there's really no way you could be comparing them effectively.

And OF COURSE you can compare a 6-speed to a 5-speed. To say you can't is humerous to say the very least. They're the same type of transmission. That's like saying you can't compare the 305 horsepower TL to the 290 horsepower Maxima. Simply because a car has more or less of something doesn't mean it isn't comparable. That's Acura's engineering loss.

I mean I don't even know what to say if you honestly believe that. It's just utterly laughable to suggest you can't compare two transmissions of different ratio counts.

And you have to be blissfully ignorant to say I'm just trying to make one car look better. Stop and THINK for once. We have two manual AWD cars, but one of them doesn't have performance figures we can find. But if we go automatic on both of them we can. Which seems the better venture? Exactly. You're certainly trying hard to discredit anything I have to say to defend your precious 4G.

You strayed originally by moving to manual TLs. That is a fact.

Actually the thing you don't get is that you bring opinion to the ridiculous like saying a 5-speed can't be compared to a six. I mean REALLY? So maybe a 5-speed Evo can't be compared to its primary competitor the 6-speed STI, or I mean anti-competitor right? That's basically what you're saying isn't it?

winstrolvtec

If you want to use stats from 0-100 mph that is one thing but when your big argument is 0-130 mph where an extra gear is the key difference then it's worth mentioning the difference. It is Acura's lose but I still don't see how this has anything to do with my 6MT comparison and how it ties into my point and I still don't see what that has to do with anything besides wanting to compare AT transmissions on your end, which is not a point I made but more on that later.

There is a little to any difference between a BMW 6AT and a 6MT in the 0-60, 1/4 mile, and trap, since their AT is engineered to resemble 6MT capabilities in the first place. You can use the 3 series which uses the same components to confirm this, using consistent times and not best to worst that is. At times there have been reports that the 6AT ran faster and trapped higher than their 6MT, even C&D admitted to this. This is also the case with the new 8AT vs 6AT officially.

Unlike BMW, an Acura 6MT fairs much better than their 5AT because it is much further away in capabilities than a 6AT would be. This is confirmed by looking at how much the MDX benefited from the change and how much better their 6MT runs vs their 5AT. In the 3G we saw up to .5 1/4 mile difference from the best of both times, with the added benefit of AWD, as well as the new 6MT, we now see up to .6-.7 difference.

Even being generous with assuming 535xi 6MT times can run .3 tenths better over the 6AT, even though it would be hard to even demonstrate such a possibility being that the 6MT usually fairs no better, that does not put the 535xi 6MT at any advantage compared to the TL 6MT.

I started the whole discussion with the manual TL, with another member nonetheless, that is fact.

"Specifically, the TL SH 6MT that I and you own, presents a valuable alternative to the larger mid sized luxury sedan market that combines AWD and a 6MT, since the only other one available like that is the 5 series. Which is a superior luxury experience but it too is inferior in several noted ways when compared to a $20k less expensive and comparably equipped, yet still as performance capable (if not better) TL. That is not quite what I expect from a $60k luxury sedan especially when a cheaper compromised product measures up nicely and I can buy two cars for the money instead. So as you see it comes down to what one is looking for and whether that vehicle is truly aligned with their priorities or not".

Above is the very first contribution I made to this thread, which also happened to be in response to being called out, it's not like I came here to talk smack or behave like a so called fan boy in the first place. This was only in the third paragraph with no mention of a 5AT TL only 6MT specifically and no talk about acceleration until you brought it up later. Only performance as a whole that includes handling and braking as well and I merely said as capable which few will deny. We are talking about very similarly sized, powered and weighing sedans, what kind of difference do you think you will get with either one over the other? Clearly I have no objectivity problem at least a much smaller one.

"In mpg the 2010 535xi is rated 16/24, but then again it's a lot quicker transmission for transmission (read: auto for auto, manual for manual)".

This is the first mention of the 5AT or any acceleration numbers for that matter and it didn't come from me. It's also inaccurate as far as the 6MT and is misleading depending on how you define "a lot". .2-.3 tenths is not a lot when one does it by brake torquing and the other doesn't. My TLS did that over my 04 but they could be launched the same and it was barely noticeable when on it, never mind just a normal everyday commute.

First off you accused me of trying to compare a 6MT to 6AT when that was never the case. Prior to that you want to infer on how a TL 6MT vs a 535xi 6MT is going to compare based only on how one's 6AT did compared to how the other's 5AT did and focusing on 0-130 mph. If you do not see a flaw in that, there is something wrong with you and I have already went over why that is.

I suppose you think that the disparity between an EVO 6AT and STI 6AT (if it existed) would be the same as their 5MT and 6MT results. Just the same, that is not the case and is not something that can be based on something totally different. I would agree with inconclusive before I would agree with that. You falsely questioned assumed motives on my part that were never the case because you didn't understand what I meant or how I meant it, and I simply returned the favor. I never said you COULD NOT compare them as automatics, that's all that is available that's all you can compare but a 6MT comparison is not the same and does not necessarily have to have the same result, obviously.

graphicguy

techno....I understand what you're saying. I like the chrome. Some won't.

You bring up a good point, however. That is, some models from different manufacturers, tout that they offer a manual transmission, but you'd be damned trying to find one on a dealer's lot.

While I save my manual trans driving to muscle cars, if you really want one in a luxury sports sedan, the TL SH AWD is the one car you have a shot at (even those are rare).

I understand that it's a tiny part of the market. But, don't advertise the manual transmission being available, when it really isn't.

BTW....I own an automatic TL. But, I've also driven a 6-MT. It's a good trans.....a really good trans.....probably the best I've ever driven.

Pete2010

Holy crap I didn't even see that... I fail at sentence structure... lol

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

winstrolvtec:

I will not argue this topic with you any longer. Your obvious lack of knowledge is a waste of my time and the poor souls that have to scroll over this discussion. You clearly must defend your TL to the bitter end and the result are laughable excuses like BMW automatics are meant to act like manuals or that you can't compare a 5-speed automatic to a six.

Get some experience rather than reading.

Until the next time....