Test Drove 6MT SH-AWD & I Want One, But . . .
02-25-2010, 06:05 PM
#41
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Well, I had the opposite experience: I test drove two manuals and immediately noitced the notchiness. I did end up buying one because I felt that the performance envelope is unbeatable at the price. Now, two months on, I'm delighted with the car, despite an interesting problem that was impeccably resolved by Acura with a new transmission (documented here in a separate thread under the faults sub thread). The notchiness is still there, as is a little vagueness in the clutch engagement point, but one gets accustomed to it.
02-25-2010, 06:18 PM
#42
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Petec2010, I'm the one who had the transmission replaced. The defect you are reporting seems somewhat different from mine: in my case the gears engaged perfectly but first (very often) and third (one time only) popped out when releasing the gas to coast. The defect was apparent immediately (in the first few miles driving home from the dealer) and was impeccably taken care of by the good people at Acura of Boston: since I see you are in the Boston metro area, you may want to consult them as they are quite familiar with this transmission.
03-05-2010, 01:10 AM
#43
For some it doesn't matter to what extent it is or isn't proven, it still won't be enough. There is always a side that cries BS or foul play. At the end of the day, all that needs to be said to that is imitation is the highest form of flattery.
You seem to want to dismiss or downplay all evidence of SH being superior in anyway to standard Torsen Quattro yet want to crown the ZF variant of it the king when there is no evidence of that, especially in snowy conditions, as it is only an option available on two models niether of which come with all season tires. The best part of your argument is SH needs to be proven yet the ZF Quattro is already "clearly" superior and according to your assumptions, that's why Honda didn't want an S4 with it at the event. Neither holds any absolute truth.
The reality is you have two systems that are both capable of active rear vectoring. One that is a more constant AWD and more predictable and another that is less but more variable and still has more active functions and capabilities. I don't see a clear winner but what I do see is that standard Quattro desn't belong in this group.
The other press event for the 6MT TL, over a year ago in Sep 08, used the 08 S4 as they should have. It was still available at that time. Where did you get that it was two years old and discountinued? Would you rather they used the 09 convertible instead? What are you supposed to use when you want to showcase an upcoming model? It's not like they were going to find a 2010 S4 to use in 2008. Clearly the intent of that event was to get potential 6MT TL consumers to hold out for the 6MT 4G TL instead of going to somthing else that was already available at that time and it worked. Don't make more of it than it was supposed to be.
Also, stop making Audi out to be the victim here. Audi has in large done that to themselves. It's not Acura's fault the Q7 can't properly vector torque or weighs as much as it does. That is a real world situation and one can expect similar results, it's not a rigged test. For whatever it's worth there is only within 50-97 lbs more weight, depending, in the Q7's front end wich hits the hill grade and ice first just like the rest of the cars. No excuses, I don't care that the Q7 is heavy, it's a direct competitor to the MDX, as is the Lexus RX. That's why it's there, not because it's heavy. It's a winter event, when people think winter driving they think SUV, so having more SUV competitors there makes sense. The ZDX was matched with the X6 and the FX350, the TL was matched against the 3 series.
Sure there must be several reasons why the RDX, RL and it's competitors were not a part of the testing as well as the A4 or S4 and several other vehicles but it doesn't mean we automatically assume it's for biased reasoning and the same thing goes for other brands events.
You seem to want to dismiss or downplay all evidence of SH being superior in anyway to standard Torsen Quattro yet want to crown the ZF variant of it the king when there is no evidence of that, especially in snowy conditions, as it is only an option available on two models niether of which come with all season tires. The best part of your argument is SH needs to be proven yet the ZF Quattro is already "clearly" superior and according to your assumptions, that's why Honda didn't want an S4 with it at the event. Neither holds any absolute truth.
The reality is you have two systems that are both capable of active rear vectoring. One that is a more constant AWD and more predictable and another that is less but more variable and still has more active functions and capabilities. I don't see a clear winner but what I do see is that standard Quattro desn't belong in this group.
The other press event for the 6MT TL, over a year ago in Sep 08, used the 08 S4 as they should have. It was still available at that time. Where did you get that it was two years old and discountinued? Would you rather they used the 09 convertible instead? What are you supposed to use when you want to showcase an upcoming model? It's not like they were going to find a 2010 S4 to use in 2008. Clearly the intent of that event was to get potential 6MT TL consumers to hold out for the 6MT 4G TL instead of going to somthing else that was already available at that time and it worked. Don't make more of it than it was supposed to be.
Also, stop making Audi out to be the victim here. Audi has in large done that to themselves. It's not Acura's fault the Q7 can't properly vector torque or weighs as much as it does. That is a real world situation and one can expect similar results, it's not a rigged test. For whatever it's worth there is only within 50-97 lbs more weight, depending, in the Q7's front end wich hits the hill grade and ice first just like the rest of the cars. No excuses, I don't care that the Q7 is heavy, it's a direct competitor to the MDX, as is the Lexus RX. That's why it's there, not because it's heavy. It's a winter event, when people think winter driving they think SUV, so having more SUV competitors there makes sense. The ZDX was matched with the X6 and the FX350, the TL was matched against the 3 series.
Sure there must be several reasons why the RDX, RL and it's competitors were not a part of the testing as well as the A4 or S4 and several other vehicles but it doesn't mean we automatically assume it's for biased reasoning and the same thing goes for other brands events.
These so called tests which are setup by Honda and then conducted on their own (or funded) testing grounds are not what the majority would call unbias tests. Every manufacture conducts similar types of tests or comparisons for training purposes and marketing within house. Over the years I have been lucky enough to attend some weather they are regional or national. In the end though behind closed doors the organizers will always admit that some certain models etc are left out because it would defeat the purpose of the event. Honda takes their tests to the extreme because they invite credible journalists but dont allow them to bring their own testing equipment and then let them run the event already knowing what the outcome is.This was easily seen by many in other forums when Acura staged their 2010 6MT against the 2008 S4 which was discontinued for the 2009 model year. Other manufactures when showcasing their new models have "First Drive or First Look" events when the journalists can take the vehicle out and give an evaluation. If the 4G 6MT is a true competitor to the S4 like they made it out to be then why arent they testing it to the new S4 today?? Obviously because every independent test so far shows it superior to the 6MT...You may not want to accept this being Pro-Acura but most car enthusiasts from a unbias point of view can easily see this.
You seem to want to watch a single video from a Honda backed test and claim that SHAWD is the ultimate AWD system on the market. As i posted in another thread thats more related to this topic, Several years ago at the same event an individual took the same two vehicles (Q7/MDX)through a high speed course and buried the MDX everytime into the snow bank where he had no issues with the Q7. This seems to back what Technocat was saying about how Quattro may be better in wet/snow conditions, but again we dont know the variables because it was another event setup by Honda where the journalist arent allowed to bring their own testing equipment etc.
Also, No one is making Audi out to be a victim (with the exception of the obvious with these Honda backed events). The reality is though, that the Q7 is heavier than the MDX (this is even mentioned in the Winter Event article) and the Q7 is generally classified as a large SUV while the MDX is considered Midsized. This is obviously going to play a small roll when comparing the two as physics will eventually come into play.
While SHAWD and standard quattro both have their plus and minuses. You seem to put all the emphasis on the SHAWD system being better because of torque vectoring. If thats the case and both SHAWD and Quattro are very similar, then by adding Torque vectoring to the quattro system would make it superior.....This is what the OP was comparing too, the S4 with torque vectoring vs the SHAWD and not just standard quattro.
Overall, both systems are clearly good with their plus and minuses. The AWD industry has really taken off in the last ten years and inturn the consumer has really benefited from the competition. Quattro though has been the proven benchmark for several decades and has generally always had the highest standard to beat.............and as you say, imitation is the highest form of flattery.
03-05-2010, 03:03 PM
#44
Respectively, you seem more biased than anyone here. That's why you are here in an Acura community in the first place, always talking Acura down and praising Audi for whatever, whenever you get the chance. Everyone has seen through that a long time ago, don’t now act as if you somehow more neutral or fair, and definitely not any better for it, you have already proven otherwise. Why would someone come all this way and go through so much effort just to talk smack. Let me guess, hatred from a form of jealousy and to maybe justify a purchase that you are already very insecure about because maybe it's not that good.
Lets go over some of your claims. You keep acting as though the TL was intended to compete against the S4. I don't know where you come from but I see two very distinct vehicles both with different purposes. Acura never aimed nor mentioned that the TL was to compete with the S4, ever. As a matter of fact when the 4G TL was in design phases the S4 was still always up against the likes of the M3, so it was a surprise to most that they moved it down this generation to compete with the 335 instead, but looking at the product and their lineup, this makes sense. Acura held one test event in which they wanted to display the TL 6MT abilities for a car of it's size and weight and purpose against some of the best performing vehicles in it's price range at that time, in an attempt to hold over current 6MT owners, that's all.
Somehow I get the feeling that this test and it's results upset you. Honestly, the results came from journalists not pro drivers, so the results were not biased in any way. They have not held a press event today because there is no need, the car is already out and the media takes care of the rest. We all know the capabilities of both cars today. Most knew the new S4 was due out around the same time as the TL 6MT and everyone assumed it would be a better sports sedan as far as performance goes. That should have been obvious back then, they have two completely different positions and purposes.
The Acura event was a measuring stick not an attempt to unfairly show anybody up or an attempt to mislead people to thinking the new S4 would resemble the results of the old. Any fool knows that. Your assuming this event was held as a true comparo, your wrong, get it through your head that it was done with a pre production model a year in advance and for the reasons I already mentioned, twice. Why else would they hold that type of event with a pre production model against cars that would be dated when it comes out? You are making more of it than it was and you crossing the arguments about the S4 being a better sports car, which it is, and the argument of how the two AWD systems compare. Those are two very separate things. Which am I discussing and why?
Never have I claimed SH to be the best, it has it's good and it's bad like anything else but it's more advanced than the normal AWD system and because of that it has proven more capable and it should be compared to other systems that also have similar capabilities and from there it should be judged where it may or not be better but we don't know that yet. Staking claims, by either one of us, is as good as garbage.
So what I am saying is how can the ZF Quattro system be "clearly" superior to that of SH AWD, according to you, based only on an outcome that clearly suggests the S4 is only a better car for sports intent? That is all that has been established till now. The fact is SH can maintain the same level of torque distribution all around when needed and the same active rear vectoring ability as ZF Quattro as needed, but up 70% rear active transfer instead, which is more rear bias. Being a better sports or performance car is one thing, it had better be, it's smaller, lighter, better balanced and $56k similarly equipped, but being a better AWD system is another.
There is a large difference between driving up an icy incline and racing through snow on a speed course. There is much more room for driver error and tires come into play to a greater extent. The most important part you need to recognize is that consumers are not racing through a speed course but they are going up icy hill grades that resemble those in the video. Sure the Q7's weight is a factor but it will be a factor in real life too, the speed course results wont be. May I ask for the purpose of the winter event, why does the press need testing equipment? I don't need numbers for a snowy winter, I need comparable results.
Quattro has been proven according to an outdated view and means of technology and testing. The biggest proof is in Rally racing, a great accomplishment, but wait a second, who is rallying their car to work everyday or a trip to the mall? I don't know about you but I don’t have a road course in my daily commute but I do face some situations found in the Acura test event, which SH did excel at this time.
Yes, it was Acura’s press event but the test procedures were already there and held by a third party facility and cars were driven by the journalists and everyone invited to or included in the event. I am sure that it may be true what you say about brands excluding their models that may not perform as well or other brands models that do but suggesting that in this case is only false assumption and is biased and unfair. It’s not biased the other way because we go off of what we know and what they tested and those results, not what they didn’t test or didn’t include, whether those results would have been good or bad. It’s not like they tested something that was supposed to fair well and make it look bad. Certain cars weren’t there, so we don’t know the outcomes of the tests, that’s all there is to it. Assumptions don’t prove anything either way.
Face it, standard Quattro is old news and outdated. As a matter of fact for the price point it's also overrated. There is nothing special about standard Torsen Quattro, especially if you compare it to systems that are designed of a similar nature. In fact, the latest implements of Torsen are no better or more advanced than anything else. A center Torsen differential with a front and rear open differential, electronically controlled. This is supposed to be a benchmark? It's mostly hype and marketing and it starts with an Italian label for a German brand.
Acura didn't copy or even want to copy Quattro or their standards, imitation is one thing exceeding is another. SH it is it's own completely unique AWD system, completely engineered by Honda, top to bottom. I am pretty sure they looked past the somewhat false standards of Quattro that were somehow applied to daily driving when it had little to do with that. Acura likely had their eyes on everything, especially on less credited yet more capable systems like Mitsubishi's, yet Acura was still a pioneer of active vectoring years ago themselves, with the ATTS. There is nothing else engineered even remotely like it. Audi gets credit for everyone else’s inventions. The Torsen differential, and now the optional ZF differential. They really didn't do sh*t.
Quattro is good but there is a limit to it and the next level up starts with the torque vectoring and active differential. So while it might be regarded as the best in the normal AWD, the active torque vectoring systems are the next generation and next thing up and Acura is leading the way with it. Meaning, it's available mostly on an entire lineup with the best price point for this type of technology and it's standard and a staple of their system as opposed to, well, if you want it you have to pay for it and it’s not available on anything short of an expensive sports application not even designed for all weather capabilities, where it could also be of use.
Lets go over some of your claims. You keep acting as though the TL was intended to compete against the S4. I don't know where you come from but I see two very distinct vehicles both with different purposes. Acura never aimed nor mentioned that the TL was to compete with the S4, ever. As a matter of fact when the 4G TL was in design phases the S4 was still always up against the likes of the M3, so it was a surprise to most that they moved it down this generation to compete with the 335 instead, but looking at the product and their lineup, this makes sense. Acura held one test event in which they wanted to display the TL 6MT abilities for a car of it's size and weight and purpose against some of the best performing vehicles in it's price range at that time, in an attempt to hold over current 6MT owners, that's all.
Somehow I get the feeling that this test and it's results upset you. Honestly, the results came from journalists not pro drivers, so the results were not biased in any way. They have not held a press event today because there is no need, the car is already out and the media takes care of the rest. We all know the capabilities of both cars today. Most knew the new S4 was due out around the same time as the TL 6MT and everyone assumed it would be a better sports sedan as far as performance goes. That should have been obvious back then, they have two completely different positions and purposes.
The Acura event was a measuring stick not an attempt to unfairly show anybody up or an attempt to mislead people to thinking the new S4 would resemble the results of the old. Any fool knows that. Your assuming this event was held as a true comparo, your wrong, get it through your head that it was done with a pre production model a year in advance and for the reasons I already mentioned, twice. Why else would they hold that type of event with a pre production model against cars that would be dated when it comes out? You are making more of it than it was and you crossing the arguments about the S4 being a better sports car, which it is, and the argument of how the two AWD systems compare. Those are two very separate things. Which am I discussing and why?
Never have I claimed SH to be the best, it has it's good and it's bad like anything else but it's more advanced than the normal AWD system and because of that it has proven more capable and it should be compared to other systems that also have similar capabilities and from there it should be judged where it may or not be better but we don't know that yet. Staking claims, by either one of us, is as good as garbage.
So what I am saying is how can the ZF Quattro system be "clearly" superior to that of SH AWD, according to you, based only on an outcome that clearly suggests the S4 is only a better car for sports intent? That is all that has been established till now. The fact is SH can maintain the same level of torque distribution all around when needed and the same active rear vectoring ability as ZF Quattro as needed, but up 70% rear active transfer instead, which is more rear bias. Being a better sports or performance car is one thing, it had better be, it's smaller, lighter, better balanced and $56k similarly equipped, but being a better AWD system is another.
There is a large difference between driving up an icy incline and racing through snow on a speed course. There is much more room for driver error and tires come into play to a greater extent. The most important part you need to recognize is that consumers are not racing through a speed course but they are going up icy hill grades that resemble those in the video. Sure the Q7's weight is a factor but it will be a factor in real life too, the speed course results wont be. May I ask for the purpose of the winter event, why does the press need testing equipment? I don't need numbers for a snowy winter, I need comparable results.
Quattro has been proven according to an outdated view and means of technology and testing. The biggest proof is in Rally racing, a great accomplishment, but wait a second, who is rallying their car to work everyday or a trip to the mall? I don't know about you but I don’t have a road course in my daily commute but I do face some situations found in the Acura test event, which SH did excel at this time.
Yes, it was Acura’s press event but the test procedures were already there and held by a third party facility and cars were driven by the journalists and everyone invited to or included in the event. I am sure that it may be true what you say about brands excluding their models that may not perform as well or other brands models that do but suggesting that in this case is only false assumption and is biased and unfair. It’s not biased the other way because we go off of what we know and what they tested and those results, not what they didn’t test or didn’t include, whether those results would have been good or bad. It’s not like they tested something that was supposed to fair well and make it look bad. Certain cars weren’t there, so we don’t know the outcomes of the tests, that’s all there is to it. Assumptions don’t prove anything either way.
Face it, standard Quattro is old news and outdated. As a matter of fact for the price point it's also overrated. There is nothing special about standard Torsen Quattro, especially if you compare it to systems that are designed of a similar nature. In fact, the latest implements of Torsen are no better or more advanced than anything else. A center Torsen differential with a front and rear open differential, electronically controlled. This is supposed to be a benchmark? It's mostly hype and marketing and it starts with an Italian label for a German brand.
Acura didn't copy or even want to copy Quattro or their standards, imitation is one thing exceeding is another. SH it is it's own completely unique AWD system, completely engineered by Honda, top to bottom. I am pretty sure they looked past the somewhat false standards of Quattro that were somehow applied to daily driving when it had little to do with that. Acura likely had their eyes on everything, especially on less credited yet more capable systems like Mitsubishi's, yet Acura was still a pioneer of active vectoring years ago themselves, with the ATTS. There is nothing else engineered even remotely like it. Audi gets credit for everyone else’s inventions. The Torsen differential, and now the optional ZF differential. They really didn't do sh*t.
Quattro is good but there is a limit to it and the next level up starts with the torque vectoring and active differential. So while it might be regarded as the best in the normal AWD, the active torque vectoring systems are the next generation and next thing up and Acura is leading the way with it. Meaning, it's available mostly on an entire lineup with the best price point for this type of technology and it's standard and a staple of their system as opposed to, well, if you want it you have to pay for it and it’s not available on anything short of an expensive sports application not even designed for all weather capabilities, where it could also be of use.
03-10-2010, 05:11 PM
#45
You really dont understand the concept of a car enthusiast forum do you?? I guess you would have to be one first in order to understand this.
The majority of people here including myself come to various forums like Acurazine in order learn about the brand or certain vehicles traits such as performance, innovations, problems etc. Whenever someone says a remotely negative comment about any Acura (especially the TL) you always put your spin on it in order to fit your agenda.
You mention about going over my claims but it is the OP that is comparing the S4 and the TL along with Acura itself with its marketing event last year. I can see though how others may compare the 6MT to the S4 though as its a competitor to BMW 335 and we all know the 335i is a competitor to the TL....Once again though your spinning things to try and support a non argument.
I think the funniest though was this statement. "Honestly, the results came from journalists not pro drivers, so the results were not biased in any way."
Since the 4G was released it's rarely won a single comparo from a credible independent automotive source. Over this time you always come on here telling everyone not to take it to seriously as the journalists are generally bias because BMW, Lexus etc etc give more advertising money to the mags (yet you have no proof of this). Now at a Honda backed and hosted event where the journalists cant have their testing equipment or select the vehicles they may want to be there etc, etc, you deem the journalists to be suddenly credible....Im sorry but your being such a hypocrite now its unbelievable. Its incredible that everyone else can see this but you cant put your own bias aside to understand this.
You also mention that in the winter event we have to go off of what we know and what they tested rather than assumptions. This is true but this is also what you are ignoring. There are no standards in this winter test. All we have is a video that Jeff from TOV took as he even admitted barley got his camera set up to take the video. We dont know who is driving or what part of the test this was (ie: traction control on/off etc). Video is a very powerfull thing if there are no standards in place. Imagine if video was taken of the TL in that Winter article when they tested it with the VSA off and the TL was all over the place and hard to drive (from what they said) but nothing was mentioned of the VSA being off. Would you still consider the video credible to the cars normal performance standards?? I would hope not.
You then mention how going up a perfectly paved 30 degree incline with a perfectly made patch of ice down one side is a real life situation but going through a course with various hills, road conditions, terrain isnt??
The hill test was more of a showcase and a marketing thing than a real life test and anyone can see that. How a AWD vehicle reacts when driving at various speeds through a controlled course that simulates possible everyday encounters is going to be way more valuable to the general consumer.
Your reputation here and at TOV is one of a hard core Acura fan. There is really nothing wrong with that as every forum needs one, but you need to unwrap yourself from the Acura flag every once in awhile and look outside of the box. You continue to put down the Quattro Torsen system yet this system is still on par with anything Acura has to offer and in some peoples opinions even better. If you would ever go outside of a Acura forum you would realize that the new generation of Quattro is going to be using a crown gear system that can transfer upto 70% power to the front and upto 85% to the rear, while still maintaining its 40:60 split, along with electronic and mechanical torque vectoring....Once again leading the industry in AWD technology.
I hope......No I actually challenge you to please join some other forums (Lexus, BMW, Buick etc etc) and educate yourself on some other models. I know your still in the honeymoon phase of your purchase but there are many other vehicles out there that are just as good, better and worse than a Acura. Not all of them are inferior to an Acura as you may want to believe.
The majority of people here including myself come to various forums like Acurazine in order learn about the brand or certain vehicles traits such as performance, innovations, problems etc. Whenever someone says a remotely negative comment about any Acura (especially the TL) you always put your spin on it in order to fit your agenda.
You mention about going over my claims but it is the OP that is comparing the S4 and the TL along with Acura itself with its marketing event last year. I can see though how others may compare the 6MT to the S4 though as its a competitor to BMW 335 and we all know the 335i is a competitor to the TL....Once again though your spinning things to try and support a non argument.
I think the funniest though was this statement. "Honestly, the results came from journalists not pro drivers, so the results were not biased in any way."
Since the 4G was released it's rarely won a single comparo from a credible independent automotive source. Over this time you always come on here telling everyone not to take it to seriously as the journalists are generally bias because BMW, Lexus etc etc give more advertising money to the mags (yet you have no proof of this). Now at a Honda backed and hosted event where the journalists cant have their testing equipment or select the vehicles they may want to be there etc, etc, you deem the journalists to be suddenly credible....Im sorry but your being such a hypocrite now its unbelievable. Its incredible that everyone else can see this but you cant put your own bias aside to understand this.
You also mention that in the winter event we have to go off of what we know and what they tested rather than assumptions. This is true but this is also what you are ignoring. There are no standards in this winter test. All we have is a video that Jeff from TOV took as he even admitted barley got his camera set up to take the video. We dont know who is driving or what part of the test this was (ie: traction control on/off etc). Video is a very powerfull thing if there are no standards in place. Imagine if video was taken of the TL in that Winter article when they tested it with the VSA off and the TL was all over the place and hard to drive (from what they said) but nothing was mentioned of the VSA being off. Would you still consider the video credible to the cars normal performance standards?? I would hope not.
You then mention how going up a perfectly paved 30 degree incline with a perfectly made patch of ice down one side is a real life situation but going through a course with various hills, road conditions, terrain isnt??
The hill test was more of a showcase and a marketing thing than a real life test and anyone can see that. How a AWD vehicle reacts when driving at various speeds through a controlled course that simulates possible everyday encounters is going to be way more valuable to the general consumer.
Your reputation here and at TOV is one of a hard core Acura fan. There is really nothing wrong with that as every forum needs one, but you need to unwrap yourself from the Acura flag every once in awhile and look outside of the box. You continue to put down the Quattro Torsen system yet this system is still on par with anything Acura has to offer and in some peoples opinions even better. If you would ever go outside of a Acura forum you would realize that the new generation of Quattro is going to be using a crown gear system that can transfer upto 70% power to the front and upto 85% to the rear, while still maintaining its 40:60 split, along with electronic and mechanical torque vectoring....Once again leading the industry in AWD technology.
I hope......No I actually challenge you to please join some other forums (Lexus, BMW, Buick etc etc) and educate yourself on some other models. I know your still in the honeymoon phase of your purchase but there are many other vehicles out there that are just as good, better and worse than a Acura. Not all of them are inferior to an Acura as you may want to believe.
03-10-2010, 11:23 PM
#46
You really dont understand the concept of a car enthusiast forum do you?? I guess you would have to be one first in order to understand this.
The majority of people here including myself come to various forums like Acurazine in order learn about the brand or certain vehicles traits such as performance, innovations, problems etc. Whenever someone says a remotely negative comment about any Acura (especially the TL) you always put your spin on it in order to fit your agenda.
Understandably, auto topics are a popular one to talk about but I personally don't think it's at all nice to go to the main forum sections of a brands message board and say things inappropriately, true or not. It's best said at Car Talk or at a general automotive website. We all have opinions but be mindful of the people around you. It's called manners.
You mention about going over my claims but it is the OP that is comparing the S4 and the TL along with Acura itself with its marketing event last year. I can see though how others may compare the 6MT to the S4 though as its a competitor to BMW 335 and we all know the 335i is a competitor to the TL....Once again though your spinning things to try and support a non argument.
The S4 was never in a market position for the TL to compete against it until now where it's a little late for Acura to do anything about it right now either. Although Audi knew where they were going with it and maybe they had the TL in their scopes instead, Acura did not. The A4 3.2 was still around when Acura launched the 4G TL. In Acura's press intro for the 2010 TL, there is no mention of the TL directly competing against the S4 only the A4 but there is mention of it also competing against the others mid level sedans as well, showing how the car holds a different position in Acura eyes as opposed to what the 335 and now the S4 are trying to do.
Using the last generation S4 in a press event should be a compliment to Audi and their fans but you guys get bend out of shape for no reason. They wanted to showcase their new SH implementation against the best and their AWD variants, you completely missed that point. Also at that the time and place and within the price range, does that mean they have to directly compete? No. Does that mean they knew Audi was going to reposition the S4? No.
It was a showcase, if they mentioned it now or did something with the new S4 now then I will eat my words but it won't happen because that's not how they view it or intended for it to be viewed. The last S4 was all too often compared to the M3, this gen and last, does that mean the TL is a competitor to this gen or last gen M3 too? No. The only thing you use to assume they compete is an unofficial test event of a preproduction model from a year and a half ago.
I think the funniest though was this statement. "Honestly, the results came from journalists not pro drivers, so the results were not biased in any way."
Since the 4G was released it's rarely won a single comparo from a credible independent automotive source. Over this time you always come on here telling everyone not to take it to seriously as the journalists are generally bias because BMW, Lexus etc etc give more advertising money to the mags (yet you have no proof of this). Now at a Honda backed and hosted event where the journalists cant have their testing equipment or select the vehicles they may want to be there etc, etc, you deem the journalists to be suddenly credible....Im sorry but your being such a hypocrite now its unbelievable. Its incredible that everyone else can see this but you cant put your own bias aside to understand this.
Also the TL continues to do ok in spite of the economy and 3G sales compared to it's competitors and even outsells a few and does no worse compared to most when taking into the different model variations availability yet more than half of these cars beat it in some kind of comparo. So it goes to show you how the TL caters to other very important areas a consumer cares about as opposed to a magazine or other publication which doesn't even consider any of that, so that is why I say not to take them seriously. Also the 6MT has not been placed a comparo yet either. Even you would admit that would change the outcome. More assumptions on your part because you don't want to listen to exactly what is being said only how you want to interpret it.
I hope you realize that a brand sponsored event is much different than a magazine or publications sponsored event. Acura does not make it's money from advertising dollars so they host an event and the media comes and reports what it saw or what was presented and what was tested. They actually got to partake in these events so there is not much to hide as far what is there being tested. Outside of that, who knows? It would only be more assumptions. Perhaps probable in your opinion and maybe true but assumption nonetheless.
A media sponsored event needs the dollars to do so and the dollars to run the company. This is a common practice. Look at the news and news channels, how come they don't ever report about people getting sick or dying from prescription or over the counter medications. Hello, they sponsor the channel and buy up so much TV time that every other ad is for meds so why would they shoot themselves in the foot, it doesn't make sense. It's sad but this is the world we live in. Is the Acura event any better? IMO yes, but are they both full of it to some extent? Absolutely.
You also mention that in the winter event we have to go off of what we know and what they tested rather than assumptions. This is true but this is also what you are ignoring. There are no standards in this winter test. All we have is a video that Jeff from TOV took as he even admitted barley got his camera set up to take the video. We dont know who is driving or what part of the test this was (ie: traction control on/off etc). Video is a very powerfull thing if there are no standards in place. Imagine if video was taken of the TL in that Winter article when they tested it with the VSA off and the TL was all over the place and hard to drive (from what they said) but nothing was mentioned of the VSA being off. Would you still consider the video credible to the cars normal performance standards?? I would hope not.
You then mention how going up a perfectly paved 30 degree incline with a perfectly made patch of ice down one side is a real life situation but going through a course with various hills, road conditions, terrain isnt??
The hill test was more of a showcase and a marketing thing than a real life test and anyone can see that. How a AWD vehicle reacts when driving at various speeds through a controlled course that simulates possible everyday encounters is going to be way more valuable to the general consumer.
The hill test was more of a showcase and a marketing thing than a real life test and anyone can see that. How a AWD vehicle reacts when driving at various speeds through a controlled course that simulates possible everyday encounters is going to be way more valuable to the general consumer.
Your reputation here and at TOV is one of a hard core Acura fan. There is really nothing wrong with that as every forum needs one, but you need to unwrap yourself from the Acura flag every once in awhile and look outside of the box. You continue to put down the Quattro Torsen system yet this system is still on par with anything Acura has to offer and in some peoples opinions even better. If you would ever go outside of a Acura forum you would realize that the new generation of Quattro is going to be using a crown gear system that can transfer upto 70% power to the front and upto 85% to the rear, while still maintaining its 40:60 split, along with electronic and mechanical torque vectoring....Once again leading the industry in AWD technology.
As usual, we have a classic case of misinformation. That might be one reason why are rationales and logic are never congruent. You said Quattro is going to be using an evolved system, right? What does that have to do with right now? SH is just as easily tweaked. You honestly think Acura is not also capable of a revision any time soon?
Lets gets the facts straight. The upcoming Quattro system that you speak of for select RS models is capable of transferring 85% to rear and 70% to front actively unlike the Quattro now which only does so reactively under traction loss and mostly for tough start ups and all terrain, not for handling. Even compared to the current SH, it's 40/60 base, variable and active to 70% front and 85% rear for actual driving, which SH can mostly maintain under the same situation(s). The difference is 90% front as opposed to 70% and 70% rear compared to 85%. Also, the difference is that Quattro diverts back to 60/40 and the SH diverts back to 90/10 as of now. SH is engineered ahead of it’s time even now because all it needs is software to accomplish the same and better and I will explain.
The ZF differential is not applied to this new Quattro, so while it gains active front to rear and rear to front like SH does, it looses out on active mechanical vectoring side to side in the rear. Instead they will be employing a vectoring brake system that actively applies brakes as you drive to manipulate the torque transfer, front and rear side to side. SH uses an active rear differential to transfer up to all of the torque to one rear wheel if necessary, like ZF. The crown gear Quattro system will no longer have that much side to side transfer ability since it’s using brakes instead of clutch packs. This also means it will not behave as well as the ZF Quattro or SH will in side to side rear vectoring especially in a situation like the icy hill grade, yet it does gain emulated vectoring ability in the front as well so the systems dry handling should be able to remain the same, in theory.
Even standard Quattro being more constant like all Torsen Quattros are, allows them to be a bit more predictable but being more variable allows SH to be a more power and fuel efficient system. When you look at the percentages and the active capabilities the ZF Quattro and the next implement of Quattro are the only two that truly rival SH. They all trade off in a few areas but standard Torsen Quattro is a little behind all these systems. The new ZF variant on the S models is much better and more inline with SH but SH-AWD still has the more active transfers that Audi is gunning for with the next version but until they combine the ZF and the crown gear abilities, it will not be anything like the current SH. It’s all in the data and the technicalities of how they operate, you can challenge this info if you like to but it is what it is.
CP, I don't feel most competitors products or vehicles are at all inferior, they are just different and don't suite me or my needs is all. I know this not from forums or other sources but real life. I have spent much of that time in other similar luxury sedans that are $20k out of the TL’s price and range and they are functionally worse than the TL and that is exactly why I continue to get one. With the TL it's as if Acura asked me what I wanted in a car and continue to evolve it with time to whatever more you could ask for. I would change a few things still but I know I am much happier with this product than I would be with anything else.
The reason I play the whose better than who game with you is because you make some pretty empty claims and specifically the one about the ZF Quattro being clearly superior to SH when no data, info or test proves this and when you look at how they are engineered and how they behave, its no wonder why. Standard T-Quattro is very good and mostly better than the majority of AWD setups and I know where it excels even over SH but it is not as advanced or as capable overall as SH or the ZF based and future Quattro. Unlike Acura’s SH-AWD, these Audi variants are still not available on a normal practical all weather capable applications. They are still reserved for expensive, high end sport models not intended for all weather use therefore they have probably not been all weather tested by anyone other than Audi. So this whole discussion is based purely on assumptions, I thought you should know that.
03-11-2010, 12:17 AM
#47
Prayers potentially answered RE question #5 (aftermarket supercharger):
https://acurazine.com/forums/4g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-295/supercharged-2010-tl-sh-awd-6-speed-767141/
https://acurazine.com/forums/4g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-295/supercharged-2010-tl-sh-awd-6-speed-767141/
03-11-2010, 12:18 AM
#48
Ditto RE question #4 (aftermarket BBK):
https://acurazine.com/forums/4g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-295/aftermarket-bbks-big-brake-kits-766621/
https://acurazine.com/forums/4g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-295/aftermarket-bbks-big-brake-kits-766621/
03-11-2010, 03:00 AM
#49
First off, this is Acurazine not a general car enthusiast forum. I don't much frequent other brands forums or generalized forums because of all the misconception and opinionating. It is not always a great way to get info, Acurazine is a little different. It is one thing to stick to facts it's another to have no substantiation for anything whatsoever.
Why is it no happy Acura or TL customer has an issue with anything I say. It's no coincidence that those who have an issue with me are those who have issues with the Acura brand or product.
Understandably, auto topics are a popular one to talk about but I personally don't think it's at all nice to go to the main forum sections of a brands message board and say things inappropriately, true or not. It's best said at Car Talk or at a general automotive website. We all have opinions but be mindful of the people around you. It's called manners.
Why is it no happy Acura or TL customer has an issue with anything I say. It's no coincidence that those who have an issue with me are those who have issues with the Acura brand or product.
Understandably, auto topics are a popular one to talk about but I personally don't think it's at all nice to go to the main forum sections of a brands message board and say things inappropriately, true or not. It's best said at Car Talk or at a general automotive website. We all have opinions but be mindful of the people around you. It's called manners.
There are many people here winstrol that are very happy with their 4G but still dont agree with you in other threads, but just like you, they all have opinions and should be respected just like yours. I disagree with you where people shouldnt discuss things weather they are true or not though. Myself and others come to these forums to learn about certain models etc. I would hate to know that people aren't allowed or falsely hide negative things about a model just so they feel better about their car and in turn give the potential consumer false info in their decision making. That would defeat the purpose of these forums for many people.
In the end, i just wanted to comment on some of your info about the next generation of Quattro as once again it's incorrect and misleading. The next generation has the crown gear differential with electronic torque vectoring to all four wheels AND the optional ZF sport differential. This will give it mechanical and electronic vectoring to the rear.
Last edited by cp3117; 03-11-2010 at 03:05 AM.
03-11-2010, 03:04 AM
#50
Someone likes Honda a little too much.
TL;DR
TL;DR
03-11-2010, 12:17 PM
#52
I guess we agree to disagree again. I wont go into detail about your whole post as its basically beating a dead horse. Your first paragraph basically sums up everything regarding your thought process towards this issue very well.
There are many people here winstrol that are very happy with their 4G but still dont agree with you in other threads, but just like you, they all have opinions and should be respected just like yours. I disagree with you where people shouldnt discuss things weather they are true or not though. Myself and others come to these forums to learn about certain models etc. I would hate to know that people aren't allowed or falsely hide negative things about a model just so they feel better about their car and in turn give the potential consumer false info in their decision making. That would defeat the purpose of these forums for many people.
In the end, i just wanted to comment on some of your info about the next generation of Quattro as once again it's incorrect and misleading. The next generation has the crown gear differential with electronic torque vectoring to all four wheels AND the optional ZF sport differential. This will give it mechanical and electronic vectoring to the rear.
There are many people here winstrol that are very happy with their 4G but still dont agree with you in other threads, but just like you, they all have opinions and should be respected just like yours. I disagree with you where people shouldnt discuss things weather they are true or not though. Myself and others come to these forums to learn about certain models etc. I would hate to know that people aren't allowed or falsely hide negative things about a model just so they feel better about their car and in turn give the potential consumer false info in their decision making. That would defeat the purpose of these forums for many people.
In the end, i just wanted to comment on some of your info about the next generation of Quattro as once again it's incorrect and misleading. The next generation has the crown gear differential with electronic torque vectoring to all four wheels AND the optional ZF sport differential. This will give it mechanical and electronic vectoring to the rear.
I had no intent of misleading although you have done that yourself, I will do one better and apologize for excluding the info that the sports differential may also be an option on this new Quattro system debuting in the upcoming RS5 model exclusively. I thought I included that in the third to last paragraph but did not, so my bad. I was comparing more in terms of the next actual standardized full production T-Quattro model and not an optional component.
This new Quattro is what current Quattro and most AWD fans have been waiting for and I am interested to see what Acura does with SH in response, if anything at all. That depends on how far down the ladder it goes. I will say that if it makes it to the next A6 it will get more consideration from my part than the current one did.
I would like to add to show you and everyone that I am not as biased you might think I am that if one is in the market for a 6MT + AWD combo and wants a larger mid sized sedan than whatever else is offered in the entry class your choices are the TL or the outdated, soon to be replaced 5 series, so what would you get?
So it's no wonder why and based on the timing and availability that I ended up with another TL. So that is half the reason and the other comes from the fact that I do appreciate Honda/Acura more than any other brand right now for what they represents and how that aligns with my priorities. So lets just respect each others differences (and of opinions) and agree to disagree.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 03-11-2010 at 12:20 PM.
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