First off let me just say I absolutely love Honda/Acura despite the fact that I think they have kind of lost their way the past few years. I decided to get rid of my BMW to get the TL for a few reasons:

My BMW did not have all wheel drive, it was a stick, and of course potential reliability issues outside of warranty. I decided on the TL because it is very reliable, has a great AWD system, and a smooth automatic.

I will say there are some things I miss...I will keep in mind the BMW stickered for $64k versus the sticker of $45k on the TL.
-The first thing I miss is the stereo in the BMW. I always read that the ELS was one of the best, but I think the 16 speaker 600 watt system in the BMW sounded much better.
-Another thing is the automatic windshield wipers...I can't believe the TL does not have this.
-Heated steering wheel...which I think is available on most KIA's these days.
-10.4 high resolution navi screen.
-Soft Close Doors

I'm not trying to diss the TL because obviously there is a huge price difference. The TL does 90% of what a great car should do for a very competitive price. I like the way it drives, handles, and feels. I can say though that I do find myself missing the BMW but I can't complain about the cash I saved!

 

Congrats on the new car!

My wife has the 328 and I know what you mean about the heated steering wheel as well as the automatic windshield wipers. She is so used to it that they have to be mandatory in her next car!

However, you are right with price difference. Her car price was pretty close to mine with a smaller engine, fake leather, no navigation, no homelink, no car alarm, no power seats passenger side, no Bluetooth audio..... At the end if the day I am willing to sacrifice those two features for everything else... Lol

 

This. BMW nickel and dimes you for the basic amenities. It has gotten very old at this point. The X5 is approaching $80k now fairly optioned out, that's Range Rover territory. The 335 is over $50k with decent options. No thanks.

 

Don't know if you've tried the ELS on a well-engineered DVD-A, but to my mind, I've not heard better in an OEM system.

 

I agree with the fact that the DVD-A sounds great but I wish that great sound carried over to other music media.

 

I'm not trying to diss the TL because obviously there is a huge price difference. The TL does 90% of what a great car should do for a very competitive price. I like the way it drives, handles, and feels. I can say though that I do find myself missing the BMW but I can't complain about the cash I saved

Does 90% at 70% of the cost!!!!!!!!!!!! I used to have a 2006 530I and I absolutely loved the car and the "panache" of owning a BMW. Having said that, the reliability issues I had with the AC and the suspension all within warranty was enough for me to get rid of it before the end of the warranty. I have since owned an Infiniti G37 and currently the 2013 TL. I was willing to give up the badge for the peace of mind. I am sure the upcoming TLX will have some of the latest gadgets available with all the current cars. I purchased my 2013 knowing that a new one would be around the corner. I myself like the look, the comfort, the size, the price, and end of cycle reliability being offered by the current TL....I drove all the usual suspects a few months ago including the BMW328i and I could not believe what you have to pay to get one of those. I have a feeling that the 530I I owned could be my last BMW. I am not willing to pay that kind of money for a BMW ever again.

For a few extra dollars I might consider the Lexus GS350 F model and another awesome car WAY WAY OUT of my league is the Mercedes CLS550 Ray Donovan drives.... Anyone seen the series? That is one cool dude and a very cool car... In the mean time my TL SE suits me fine........

 

The TL is not in the same class as the 5-series.

Only the RLX is in the same class as the 5-series.

Going from a 5-series to the TL is considered a vehicle class downgrade. Therefore, don't be surprise by having something missing from the much cheaper TL sedan.

 

The more you pay for a car the more the diminishing returns. Compare a fully loaded Kia with any more expensive car. If all you care about is features, Kia wins on value....it will always win. Exact thinking applied to 535 vs TL.

 

People forget the current 5 series is a generation ahead of the 4G. So with that in mind, the 4G still holds its own.

 

Kia, the other three letter car company!

You guys are cracking me up!


As I age I'm starting to see the light when it comes to automobiles. They are all pretty much the same. Car companies are like any other producer...they sell dreams and image.


Sure my pair of Acuras are the best driving, most comfortable vehicles I've owned, but they aren't capable of time travel.


"And you can give me a fucking automobile: a fucking Datsun, a fucking Toyota, a fucking Mustang, a fucking Buick! Four fucking wheels and a seat!"

 

They are partially in the same class in the stated intention of Acura...only "partially" for the reason that Acura took the asinine decision to "defend" the slow selling (or better to say non selling) RL, which is structurally the same car, by "decontenting" the TL....so in the TL you could not get, for example, electric adjusting steering wheel, active cruise control, parking sensor integrated in the camera, wood trim, etc... all things you could get on even an Infiniti G37 of the same model year (2010 in my case)....heck I had a heated steering wheel in my 2002 Nissan Maxima!!!

The result was that the RL did not sell anyway, the TL was slotted by the media in the 3 Series/G/A4 segment (because of the price) but the car was "too big and heavy" to win any comparo in that class and at the same time it could not really be pitted against a 5 Series/A6/E Class because of the lack of amenities in a fully loaded trim....."tweener" cars do not work in the car marketing world.

In a logical, rational world, which it seems to escape Honda management, the TSX should have competed with the 3 Series/A4 adding a SH-AWD trim, the RL should have been killed for good and the TL should have been a fully fledged midsize luxury contender with all the gizmos and goodies and adding a dual turbocharged SH-AWD top version (call it Type S or whatever) in lieu of a V8 engine which Honda does not have and maybe even an hybrid.


The new RLX seems to be a disaster in the making sales wise (I heard) and it does not surprise me at all considering how bland it looks, copying design cues from everybody, worse than the first generastion of the Hyundai Genesis....ohh and the marketing geniuses at Acura decided to launch the car on in FWD form...just great!!! Maybe I have seen only one on the road here in Seattle so far....

If the new TLX is going to follow the RLX path (sorry public for the too polarizing, stand out, original design, let's play safe and copy everybody else), my current TL is going to be my first and last Acura....it seems to be almost that the TL is a great car not because of Acura but despite of Acura....

P.S.

However as Team Acura already said, the new F10 5 Series is one generation ahead of the current TL, competitor or not...

 

lool heated steering wheel and auto wipers....how can you live like this???..be strong

 

Exact, because of the price.

Size-wise, the 5-series and the TL may be in the same SIZE class; but price-wise, the TL is in the 3-series class.

This is how various vehicle class is demarcated - price and features. It is which vehicles can you buy with a specified chunk of money, give or take some changes.

If Acura dares to sell the TL with the similar pricing as the RLX and the 5-series, the TL will flop even worse than the RLX.

So this is vehicle class. The TL is simply not in the same premium vehicle class as the RLX, 5-series, E-class, GS, and whatever premium sedans in the RLX price category.

 

Interesting reading here......


And Marco, LOVE the family portrait Avatar!



I love the ELS System with DVD Audio discs. Hell, I love it even with a regular CD-the head unit will separate and regular CD into Surround Sound.



I think BMW is over rated too. They great with some stuff, but BMW will nickel and dime you to death.

 

I agree! I guess my opinion would change if I lived in a cold and rainy place. The stereo can be mitigated with some money, but I'm not sure about the soft close doors.

 

The TL could be a fully fledged 5 Series competitor if it had all the gadget and gizmos of that segment.

If Acura "dared" to sell the TL in the price range of the 5 Series or A6 (well historically Acura has always been a bit cheaper than the German competitors in the same class) it could do it with no problem assuming it gives the car the same accessories/options expected in that segment.

Is not the car lacking from an intrinsic technical perspective (chassis, suspension setup, etc..) but just from a gadgets/accessory/interior trim touch perspective.

In real life the TL has no inferiority complex whatsoever compared to a low/mid equipped 528i-535i but as a whole the 5 Series belong to a higher segment when you consider all the engine and trim options available.

The TL ended up being in a no man land....unable to compete with sporty midsize luxury cars of similar size on equipment and too big for the entry level luxury segment (A4/3 Series, C Class).

The TSX could not even fully compete with the entry level luxury segment.

 

I think people buy BMWs for different reasons than they buy Acuras. Some buy BMWs for image and others buy them because of their handling while others buy them because that's what they always buy and money doesn't matter.

While the Acura TL can't outsell a 5 series that has been in production 40+ years and has a diverse set of engine sizes and types, it does hold its own with other competitors which are also outsold by BMWs too.

I'm sure the Lexus GS has some of the bells & whistles that are lacking in the TL and the TL outsells that. The TL outsells many other models as well: Audi A6, Volvo (adding all the models in size segment) and others. I didn't see the sales breakdown for the 5 Series but I would bet the TL beats the sales of the 535 which is the best comparison of motor size but yet costs almost 20k more. I would imagine there are more 528s sold than 535s.

 

Sorry buddy, "hypothetical TL" won't sell, only a real TL will.

If the TL had all the gadget and gizmos of that segment, and carried the same pricing as that segment, then the TL could be a fully fledged 5 Series competitor.

But unfortunately, in real life, the 4G TL hasn't.

Acura didn't market the 4G TL as such. Acura reserved this privilege exclusively to the RL/RLX class sedan. So the end result is that the TL is not a 5-series competitor, and also doesn't belong to the 5-series premium sedan class.

Hypothetically speaking, the TL could even be a fully fledged R8/911/GTR competitor if it lost 2 doors, and had the same propulsion hardware as the upcoming NSX, too.

However, the 4G TL is what it is; nothing more, nothing less.

Please don't think Honda is stupid. If the sales/marketing data shows that the 4G TL can be successful in amongst the A6/5-series/GS/E-class premium vehicle class, Honda would have already market the TL as such.

The whole point is about pricing. Acura didn't dare to give the TL the 5-series pricing, but only give the TL the 3-series pricing. Thus the TL naturally falls into same premium vehicle class as the A4/3-series/IS/C-class sedans.

You can call it a mistake or wrong move or whatever. But it still doesn't change the fact that the TL belongs to the A4/3-series/IS/C-class premium vehicle class, and that the RL/RLX belongs to the A6/5-series/GS/E-class premium vehicle class.

Incidentally, such "hypothetical TL" did exist, but flopped big time competing against the A6/5-series/GS/E-class sedans. That "hypothetical TL" was the 2G RL. The 2G RL shared the same chassis and the same propulsion hardware as the one-class-lower TL, and also had all the gadget and gizmos of that segment. But that "hypothetical TL" was simply not competitive enough in that 5-series premium sedan arena, and even the latest RLX sedan doesn't seem to work that well either.

 

Sorry my friend but you are wrong

From Acura official press releases:

LUXURY MARKET STATUS
The 2010 TL enters the competitive luxury market at an ideal time as the segment in which it competes is expected to remain strong into the next decade. Available with the largest and most powerful engine in TL history, along with the sport-driving focused SH-AWD® system (the world's first torque-vectoring AWD system when introduced in 2000), the 2010 TL competes with vehicles such as the Audi A4 and A6, BMW 3-Series and 5-Series, Infiniti G35 and M35, Lexus ES, GS and IS sedans, and the Mercedes-Benz C-Class and E-Class.

http://hondanews.com/channels/acura-...ra-tl-overview


Competitive Vehicles
Engine /Horsepower Drivetrain


Acura TL SH-AWD® 6MT 3.7L V-6, 305 hp AWD
Audi A42.0L I-4, 211 hp AWD
Audi S4 3.0L V-6, supercharged, 333 hp AWD
Audi A6 3.2L V-6, 255 hp AWD
BMW 335i 3.0L I-6, twin-turbo, 300 hp RWD
BMW 335xi 3.0L I-6, twin-turbo, 300 hp AWD
BMW 535i 3.0L I-6, twin-turbo, 300 hp RWD
Infiniti G37 Sport 3.7L V-6, 328 hp RWD
Infiniti M35 3.5L V-6, 303 hp RWD
Infiniti M35x 3.5L V-6, 303 hp AWD
Mercedes C300 Sport 3.0L V-6, 228 hp RWD
Mercedes C300 4Matic Sport 3.0L V-6, 228 hp AWD
Mercedes E350 Sport 3.5L V-6, 268 hp RWD
Mercedes E350 4Matic Sport 3.5L V-6, 268 hp AWD

http://hondanews.com/channels/acura-...ura-tl-chassis

Sorry but in my opinion, given the "malaise" Acura find itself in, sometimes I do think they are a bit stupid or incompetent. They had 2 vehicles in their lineup identical in size and mechanicals.

Again look at the Acura official press release I posted before....it's from Acura, not my opinion. Their ideal customer for the TL was someone looking at the smaller 3 Series or A4 but attracted by the bigger size of the TL or someone cross shopping it with a low-mid optioned 528i/535i or A6.

The 4G TL took away any reason for the RL existence, this is something pretty much any car magazine has said and it is my opinion as well.

The 2G RL was not competitive enough with the 5 Series....FWD only no V8 engine....on the RLX we agree, is not going anywhere.


Nonsense, these are mid/rear engined exotics, is not a matter of "losing 2 doors".

 

i feel like i can reply here since i've owned both. i've previously owned 12 TL 6spd manual -> 12 bmw 535i M sport --> 13 lexus GS350 --> and just 2 weeks ago 13 bmw 550i M sport

having owned all these cars (yes i know i have a problem) i can honestly say that the biggest problem i had with the japanese was the under powered engines (and old technology transmissions). both the Tl and GS lacked low end torque. i loved the engine on the 535i but got rid of it because it was more of an impulse buy and didnt get the options i really wanted. some people also say that bmw nickels and dimes you, but i look at it another way. the 5 series is meant to be a $60K car, but you can strip it down to $50K, they do that to make it more affordable to others.

but yes, they are really not in the class. go drive a TL and then a nicely optioned 5 series, its not even close. and before anybody asks, i lease my cars with nothing down (just drive off fees) and then will find somebody to assume my lease, so i'm not taking a big hit financially.

also, while BMW"s may have a higher MSRP, they lease well (if thats your thing). for example the current 13 550i i'm driving has an MSRP of $74K. with nothing down but drive off fees and first month payment i'm paying $760/month + tax for 15k/yr.

one final thought, but bmw's also allow you to customize the car as you want. i was really annoyed at acura for not allowing me to get a 6spd with the ventilated seats. also, i'm not a fan of black interiors, but i had no choice if i wanted the 6 spd. bmw allows you to order the car as you want and have a large selection of colors and options to chose.

 

Many TL owners on this site did cross shop the 5 (especially the TL SH-AWD owners)


I find them very comparable in the way they drive with the 5 having more focus on comfort where the TL actually feels sportier given its size, but yes the 5 Series can be really optioned much more luxuriously than the TL but you are well over 60K at that point. I did like the inline 6 turbo much more than the 3.7 V6, especially its low end torque.
Now if we talk 550i, that is another story.....but I did recently drive a 528i and I was rather underwhelmed.

Again the problem with the TL is that Honda did hold back some of the gizmos to justify the RL existence.
A 2010 G37 could be had with electric steering wheel adjustment, adaptive cruise control, parking sonars, rain sensitive wipers, wood trim, etc...

 

Acura can say anything they want. The market vehemently disagreed with them. I'm not picking on Acura's marketing bs..all companies do the same thing.

 

The market seems to like the 5-series. 35k vs 18k ytd units going to the 5 series. 18k ytd units for the tl. (34k for the G)

 

Simply put, The ACURA TL gives you a lot of bang for the buck. Right now, other than the G37 (which I owned as a 2010 model), there is no BETTER VALUE. Period!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Depending on the TL model, you get, these cars can be purchased from the low $30's to the high $30's. This is an ENTRY LUXURY CAR that competes very well with all those cars mentioned. I am not going to tell you that it DRIVES like a BMW535i, but it is competent enough to be in "the conversation" It sure competes in size and depending on the trim, it offers enough technology to please ones needs.

Buying a car is ALL SUBJECTIVE.... What is NOT DENIABLE is the VALUE you really get when compared to BMW, AUDI, LEXUS, etc.....I purchased a TL SE for $32K. That is basically $20K less than a BMW 528. I will never say that my car is BETTER than this one or that one. But what I will say is that I got more value than anything out there in the entry luxury market....and I can afford anything I want

I drove the BMW328I and IN MY OPINION, I saw absolutely nothing about the car that I had to have. If the car was priced at the same price as my TL, I would have NOT purchase it either..... It is one overpriced vehicle...

When I crossed shopped all these vehicles back in 2010, I did not bother with the Tl. Plain and simple, I did not like it back then. I choose to buy a G37 based on value.... I drove them all back them as well. Do I compare my old G37 with my new TL? Sure, I think the G37 has a sportier ride. It is faster and it handles better. However, The TL offers better space, better materials, better seats, and it offers a very satisfying driving experience which comes close enough to make me forget the G37 altogether.... No regrets...

I think the TL deserves to to be in the same conversation with all these cars. Back to the original poster. It offers 90% at 70% of the cost.......By the way I had a 2006 BMW 530i, and I don't miss it either....

 

That is another story, if a model is liked or not.....the 5 Series has more engine options/variants and the TL has been basically left to die in the Acura lineup (no adding of features/options)

 

Talking about overpriced....I would never pay 50 grand for a 4 cylinder car....never...no matter what the media says, you feel it's a 4 banger (starting with the sound).

In my personal opinion the A4 (excluding the S4) is not even in the same league of the TL with its puny 211 hp 4 pots mill. I was not impressed at all.

 

Mine was a reply to Edward*TLS which he says that Acura never intended to market the TL also as a 5 Series competitor....they did and I did prove to him....now if they been successful or not is another story and I agree that Acura is not been that successful partly for the reasons I exposed.

 

Fun chart even if its 4 years old, published when the Acura marketeers still had visions of sugar plums & first tier in their heads. But a lot has happened since 2010. They discovered you can’t take a bang for the buck nameplate & turn it into a first tier luxury nameplate in one model cycle.

They also discovered a trendy/edgy body design did not play well to most upscale luxury buyers. Buyers who are willing to spend the bigger bucks on classic body styles that evolve in an orderly fashion creating a sense of continuity in their design approach.

The chart is irreverent because since it was produced just about 100% of the "competitors" cars have been replaced with new models. It does tend to illustrate Hondas overreach & misreading of the market.

The interesting thing about them trying to play the competitive horsepower game is almost all the cars except for some of the 200HP range cars will easily outrun the the 305 hp TL. With out plowing up old data I expect the cars in the 200 horsepower range would give the base TL a good run.

It also seems like at the end of the day Acura has cried No Mas! No Mas! in trying to compete with the first tier after they got their butt kicked in the marketplace that always has the final word.

Its interesting to note that the RLX sales were down in August from both June 499 & July 617 to 459 units while one of the listed target competitors sold almost 10X as many cars. Might be to early to say but it looks like the flagship is in trouble trying to extend the Acura price range up into the higher priced zone of the mid level premiums.

 

I agree with almost everything you say...however. the TL was introduced in 2009 so that was the competition of the time...the TL is old now....a new TLX should be due in 2014, however thanks to Honda incompetence, they did not "defend" the model on the way out introducing improvement and options (oither than the badly needed 6 speed transmission with the 2012 MY).......a 200 hp outrunning a 305 TL?? Not so much...turbocharger and wunderkind 8 speed transmission may do the trick in the 0-60 game but beyond that, goodbye charlie....


I do not agree on the design comment...Cadillac is being very successful with its very edgy, stand out design language....people spend the big bucks when they feel the brand as a whole is worth the big bucks...Acura is not and I agree on that....Cadillac is sticking to their design guns, Acura is folding like a cheap suit with the terribly boring RLX.

 

I completely agree with the majority of posters.

I think it is unfair to compare 2 vehicles like the TL and 5 series because of the price difference alone.

I also thought it wasn't very bright of Acura to have enough foresight in beefing up the TSX to compete with the 3 series (better engine and adding SH-AWD) and the TL to compete in the 5 series. The RL is just a waste of space to be completely honest, and with it's bland design, I think everyone except Acura predicted it to flop.

To be completely honest, the main reason I ended up with the TL and not say the IS350 or G37 (felt that German cars were overpriced and the wife already got one), was because they offered the 6-MT. I appreciate the design now and the looks have really grown on me, but I have to admit that I thought the back was ridiculously ugly when I first saw it.. LOL

It certainly feels like the Acura MDX and RDX are carrying this brand though because if it wasn't for those 2 making record sales, Acura would be in a whole load of trouble - I think those SUVs do take a little bit of pressure off the sedans.

And dumb question for people... I am having a hell of a time trying to find DVD-audio. I have tried so many different places and none of them sell any (HMV, Future Shop, ETC). Anyone have any suggestions (I am in Edmonton, Canada btw).

 

LOL I had a feeling sooner or later you would chime in. Please pull up this data of yours. We'd love to see it. Base TL has 280 bhp if I'm not mistaken.

 

I think Bear refer to a C&D test where they were able to put an impressive 5.6 sec. 0-60 time from a 211 HP Audi A4 Quattro and performance tires....yes but look at the times to higher speed and you see how the A4 run out of steam...AWD, turbocharger an honestly superb 8 speed ZF automatic gearbox can do the trick on short rush but beyond that.....

BMW usually underate their engines anyway, it is a well known fact and I don't know if Audi does the same.

However Honda slushbox for the TL is very inefficent I have to give him that....

 

thats where i had the biggest problem with the TL's engine.. who really cares about speeds over 70-80? low end torque is a lot more useful/usable in everyday driving. acura will need to get with the times soon and offer turbocharged engines w/7-8 speeds

 

I agree, this is where the Japanese are behind the Germans...BIG behind, the new turbocharged engines with their incredibly fat and flat torque curve.....and I see no sign of the Japs changing direction while Cadillac converted to the turbo only on its 4 pots ATS. Infiniti is buying a 4 banger turbo mill from Mercedes for its Q50.

The 335 is still the only 6 Cyl sport sedan capable of breaking the 5 sec barrier on the 0-60...and the 8 Speed ZF is fantastic, everybody else, especially Honda, should give up making auto trans and buy from ZF....they just cannot compete.

 

Value is subjective. 5 series outselling the TL by 2 to 1 tells me not everybody has the same definition of value.

On other things, that hump on the back seat of the TL just about negates the minor difference in space you allude to. Better materials? Yes, the seats have a suppler leather, the els radio is slightly better than the bose. Infiniti G with accents is classier on the interior. Different experience, but a nice ride never the less.

Yes, I miss my BMW...it was smooth.

 

The Jury still out on these Turbo engines. Love to see what the long term reliability will be. I know my friends 2010 BMW 335i has been a complete disaster. When I heard, BMW was going all Turbo with their entry level engines, I said no thank you, especially for what they are charging for these cars.

I remember my 2002 Saab 9-5 with around 200 HP Turbo and the only thing I ended up liking was the comfort of the seats. I am aware everyone seems to be going Turbo in order to be able to provide a excellent firgures when it comes to gas mileage. Perhaps, I will bite again, but right now, I am sticking to the pure driving enjoyment a six cylinder.

 

That is another problem with the Japanese luxury makers...the equation has changed, buyers of luxury cars do not care that much anymore about long term reliability...the vast majority of these vehicles are leased then they are resold off lease with some sort of warranty and then is the third owner problem, who cares??

Reliability does not sell cars anymore in these segments so the Germans rule with they higher end products and technical sophisication/gadgets...long term reliability is simply not an issue.

Even the most hard core German car fans admit that they would not buy these cars used or without some sort of warranty behind.

Infiniti was on the brink of closing shop couple of years ago as Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn has admitted, Acura is almost on its deathbed badly behind and Lexus does well only thanks to the SUVs, which are the lifeline of Acura as well.


Japanese do not know how to sell luxury cars, period.
The only one that got the message is Cadillac....they are being bold, aggressive and planning high end vehicles such as a an upcoming S Class/7 Series fighter. The ATS coupe is in the card as well as a bigger GT/convertible , some sort of civilized/luxury Vette with 4 seats. This is how you build a luxury car brand. They only need to improve their transmission and move to FI engines across the board.

 

If you really believe that then you're just like all the other consumers out there. The difference between cars or any product in the market is R&D. Kia is great a feature loaded cars that will not stand the test of time. At the end of the day I beat on my car have a blast driving it and enjoy every second behind the wheel and after 170,000 miles it still drives like its brand new. That's the difference between R&D and copy cats.

Also take safety ratings into consideration. Surviving an accident should never be chalked upto luck. Its a question of R&D again. All I realize after detailing and working on cars from the early 2000's is that German cars have shit plastic quality and come apart after a couple years. By far the hardest cars to detail and work on since you never know what knob or switch is going to fall right off. Engineering in those cars leave much to be desired given the way they feel after a few years. The tolerances with regard to fit and design are unacceptable.

Hyundai and Kia are great at copying design but I will truly have respect for the brands when I see those cars still holding up to the test of time and still feeling like they just drove off the lot. Until then I won't be touching any of them with a 10 foot pole.

If all cars are created the same it would make things easier but they really aren't. Its upto the consumer and do the research required to sort the BS. Same reason why I hear people saying rims are rims and it makes no difference if you buy one thats fake or real.

 

I would just encourage some of you posters to be a little more conciliatory, i.e. friendlier. We don't need to be adversarial. There is no prize for the right answer.

I think we all develop our biases based on our experience and expectations. Someone who can afford to pay $1000 a month (or whatever) for a car payment will possibly have different expectations than someone on a tight budget.

Although I could afford it I will never buy a German or European car because I think they are needlessly complicated and expensive to maintain and repair. I know they are wonderful cars to drive. My opinion. I will also never buy another car from a NA manufacturer. They lost me forever a long time ago.

I think the Acura, specifically the 4G TL is a really neat car in many ways and I do trust Honda/Acura for reliability which is very important to me. It's not perfect, but it's close to perfect for me, all things considered.

A lot of Beemers and Mercedes are sold to wealthy folks who have no idea how cars work, have no idea about performance driving or handling. They are sold because they are status symbols to the wealthy. Nothing wrong with that, but it skews the discussion if you are going to use sales figures as some sort of scoring system.

 

That’s not what I said, the 305 was not compared to 200hp cars & I specifically excluded them from comparison with the 305hp version.....statement was cars in the 200hp “RANGE” would give the base TL a good run. That being said a 328 4cyl with a JB4 piggyback will absolutely bury the 305HP TL by running 13.4/104mph & continuing right up to its 155mph shut off..

For TeanAcuras edification a stock 240HP 328 4cyl will likewise put a stock base 280hp TL’s 14.6/14.8 on the trailer with very low 14.1/14.2@100mph times. When you start throwing HP numbers around its also a good plan to also mention how much weight those ponies need to drag over the finish line.

I don’t disagree entirely about bringing the Cadillac in with its origami folds. But its only selling slightly better than the TL so calling it successful might be challenged. The main advantage Caddy has was brand ID as a high end car despite what happened to GM.

Its just that it was geared toward a clientele that no longer exists, they all died of old age. The 3 series killer Cadillac ATS is behind by 6/7,000 units a month so that game still has a long way to go before we see how it will play out.

I still don’t think Acura can do well without changing their game plan. They tested the waters with the RLX & found them to be very cold. Most here like the Avant Garde styling that’s one reason they bought the TL.

There are not enough of you to support a mass market car. On the other side of the coin the enthusiast market is not really looking for big heavy cars unless they also come with 550/600hp.