ssim3

3 series (all models)- 6,523 3k drop from last month
C-class- 5,002 (up 500 units)
Lucerne- 4,324
G37 (Sedan/Coupe/Convert)-4,112
CTS- 3,485
IS- 3,346
ES- 3,046
A4/A5-4,700
A4- 3,823
G37 Sedan- 2,831
LaCrosse- 2,383
TL-2,034
MKZ-1,536
HS-1,242
S60-405(now includes V70 wagon, remember life cycle is over)
9-3- 279

Discuss

winstrolvtec

TL numbers are down again, many theories on that one, I am not going to speculate but I bet many are surprised to see Acura up there with total YTD sales. Are these strictly NA based sales?

winstrolvtec

It was up, someone edited, what it stated was that Acura is fourth in year to date sales for 09 behind only Lexus, BMW and MB.

VTEC Racer

Here is a more direct comparison of (sedans only) sales:

C-class- 5,002
Lucerne- 4,324
CTS- 3,485
A4- 3,823
G37 Sedan- 2,831
TSX- 2,103
TL-2,034
MKZ-1,536
HS-1,242 (never gonna hit sales goal at this rate)
9-3- 279

This is just to show the comparison of how the sedans are doing in comparison for the manufacturers that separate sedan sales from coupe, convertible and wagon sales. The more indirect comparison is found in the original post.

winstrolvtec

We do this every month yet people take the short stat or the headline and run with it. Let's try to decipher things and better translate what is actually going on. Month to month stats are a good way to see the current market but it doesn't paint for you the whole picture.

The last two months have most likely been the worst for the TL this year. Without question they are down and many seem to think there is an inventory issue, some of which are insiders to the Acura dealership and sales world and others dismiss that as a simple loyalists excuse. Doesn't really matter, the better stat is the YTD.

Everyone has decided for better or worse that the new TL is no longer the same car everyone has come to know in the 3G. It's bigger more refined and grown up. Most strongly agree that it doesn't hold the same appeal and the reason being that the TL is a unique vehicle in that it is priced like many luxury entry models but fits the mold of a luxury mid sized even if some feel it's more of a basic luxury mid and might not be quite as refined or luxurious as the other mids but not far behind by any means and certainly understandable given the price points when equally equipped.

Looking at the TL compared to the entry cars has it down 27.1% compared to September one year ago. The 3 is down 23.8%, that's all 3 series models. The C class is down 31.3%, and the G sedan is down 30.5%. YTD sales have the TL at 25,882. The G sedan at 24,266. All 3 series models at 67,220, over half of that is coupe, convertible and M sales. The C class sold 39,434, perhaps a few thousand going to the AMG but otherwise a solid stat.

The mid sized YTD stats have the Infiniti M at 12,045. The 5 at 29,690. The E at 26,740 and again the TL at 24,882. Now figure a few thousand of those sales go to the M, AMG and V8's and the TL is right along the lines of what the 5 and E sell in a V6.

So anyone who still insists that they can't sell because of the grill and design, please speak only for yourself before this discussion goes in that direction again. Anything that follows a strong best selling design like the 3G is going to get trashed for a while, just look at the current 5 series intro vs it's previous but more and more are coming around as the 3G is looking more outdated and toyish IMO everyday.

It's easy to see the #'s are in line with the normal economic decline rate. I wish I had more numbers on other brands but I think the point is pretty clear and comparison pretty effective. When you remove the inflated stats and compare more equally all the perception goes out the window and we see the TL is doing pretty well for itself considering what most everyone feels about there being more favorable platforms, transmissions, performance, features, and so called Tier 1 brands available.

YetiTL

Ok, rant is on, it's not directed at anybody so don't feel concerned:

For me, sales monthly variations is more related to the zodiac alignement rather than hard science. Most human beings are everything but rational, especially when entering non-essential stuff like buying a luxury car.

Perceived value and brand cache play for so much of the reason to buy...and frankly, we can piss and moans about numbers like 0-60mph, 1/4 mile and whatnot all day long. In the end, most people will never use their cars at the fullest potential (which is a good thing). Statuts and perceived worth take a whole new place. That might be a reason to cling to the old german classics, or not, what do I know.

Rant is over, please have an excellent day!
-YetiTL

SpicyMikey

I think most of the points being made are legit and play a role in these numbers. But maybe add to that list the fact that the TL is actually a very different car from it's last gen. Almost moved into a different market by the nature of it's size and price increase. That can be difficult with sales in the beginning.

Acura is trying to move the TL and the entire brand up stream. As they do that they will be losing existing customers and gaining new ones. Gaining new customers takes time. Marketing and word of mouth moves slowely trying to get potential customers into showrooms to consider new products that are different then past perceptions of the brand. On the flip side, loosing existing customers happens instantly. I'm sure those who own a 3G TL were quick to checkout the new product. Most recoiled at the change in direction. It's understandable, but not necessarily an indication the direction is bad.

rhn75

Some people (including me) who keep their cars for a while might have made the decision to hold out until the 6 spd AT gets rolled out...

wtliao

I am also waiting for new engine (A-VTEC) and RWD to roll out, so I may totally skip 4G and wait for 5G. Still love TL and hopefully MMC will get it right and regain the market share.

Eoanou

E-Class would more closely compare the the TL than a C-class, the same would apply with the 5 series being more of a closer comparison than the 3 series. The dimensions of the TL are much larger than that of the 3 series and C class.

And the 3 series can't be placed into this comparison because it includes all models Coupe/Sedan/Convertible/M, that's the total of four models rolled into one.

Eoanou

Don't forget that most auto manufacturer sales have fallen across the board. Sales slumped tremendously for Ford and Chrysler since the cash for clunkers promotion expired. You guys really can't compare sales of these cars now because the TL is a car aimed at the middle to upper middle class, and those are the people who are hurting the most in these times.

Understand that the Mercedes and BMW sales are staying up because they are elite brands, people who purchase them have and always will have money, so I wouldn't expect their sales to decline as sharply as other brands which are aimed at lower social classes. When the economy recovers look for Acura to rebound.

jeffpa

I have to agree with the "inventory issue"...the Acura dealer where I bought my TL has had 5 FWD TL's (1 base, 4 tech) in stock for about two months now and they sold their last AWD just after I bought mine back in June. Don't know how the TL sales are supposed to keep up with selection like that available since August...

winstrolvtec

Got some A4 numbers which has it at 27,967 for the year and only down 13.7% compared to last year which weren't that great in the first place so they have managed more consistancy than the other brands. Same things applied, take out for wagons, convertibles and few S4's and it's in line with the TL and G sedan. I have Septmebers sales for the A4 at 2,945 instead of the above mentioned 3823, my stats come from Audi's website so I don't know.

The A6 is doing almost as bad as the RL at 623 for the month and 4,794 for the year. Anyone see a correlation to those numbers and the 1st place win in a recent C&D comparo? I am not claiming anything it's just something to think about. This stat is for all the Audi supporters here at Acurazine, the brands total sales for the last year are 59,518. Acura has nearly doubled that at 115,828 and again are fourth behind Lexus, BMW, and MB. To add to that the TL makes up 31% of those total sales with as strong a contribution from the MDX at just under 32%.

DrewSRX

September 2009

Entry-Level
1. 3 - 6,523
2. C - 5,002
3. G - 4,112
4. A4/5 - 3,932
5. CTS - 3,485
6. IS - 3,346
7. ES - 3,046
8. TL - 2,034
9. MKZ - 1,536
10. 9-3 - 279
11. S60 - 277

PsychDoc

Just a small point.

The number I have for the A4 is 2945.

KeithL

I have said this in a few threads, Acura inventories for the TL were bad in August and worse in September, lots were bare. I had posted how in all of GA a few weeks back there were less than 50 TLs yet in 3 Infiniti dealers near me there were 60 G37 Sedans! So Acura inventory management killed them the last few months. Some peopel will go look for a car and if dealer does not have it and they go to Infiniti and liek the car and it is in stock, well they buy the G. I really beleive the Infiniti numbers went up becasue Acura coudl not sell to some customers and they were not going to wait weeks or a month or more. And as for AWD the Doo Doo bird is not as rare as an AWD in GA and it has been that way since I bought mine in January!

Colin

Its most of that and more. We had waaaay to many base FWD TLs and base AWD TLs. Not enough Tech TLs when we needed them. BUT the biggest problem we had in May-July was that they were not accepting ANY orders for TLs or MDXs. So not only did we have the 'wrong' models, but we couldn't even tell a customer we'd order his car (ot arrive 3 months later). All we could do was take their information and call them when they were taking orders again. Not a good way to do business.

winstrolvtec

More stats. The IS has sold 27,911 YTD, with a loss of 30.6% from last year. The ES has sold 33,431 units year to date with a 33.7% loss from last September. The GS moved only 5,277 units in YTD and is down 69.3% from one year ago. The CTS sold 29,011 on the year and a 39.8% change from last September. The STS sold 5,043 with a 60% drop off in a year.

YetiTL

Well that make sense really, ppl buying Acura most likely love the value aspect of the brand. There's not much of a point to buy a stripped down TL when you can push a little harder and get a Tech or a SH-AWD+Tech.

I don't think Acura management thought the Tech package would mean so much to most buyers... I hope they learn from their mistake and make almost no base TL and most of them with tech package.

KeithL

I don't beleive that since when the 09 TL came out they said 70% of them are sold with Tech. Contrary to say Infinit where dealers told me only about 30% of the G get sold with navi/tech. Ultimatley dealers order the cars and I think maybe the price increase and styling swayed them to opt for lower $$$ cars that might be easier to sell. The TL saw around a $3500 increase for 09.

ChinoTL

No inventory is the reason for sure. We had no TL's for almost 2 weeks in September and we're one of the bigger dealers out there.

hubbard53

i think they need to go back to their old two-model approach - TL or TL w/nav but perhaps make it TL-tech and TL-Tech w/AWD

The value is certainly there and it cannot be denied - it shows in the depreciation. I pout 10k down when I purchased the 05 TL - and when I traded it in, I netted 10k to put down on the 09 TL. It is a great car, great options, good price, and it holds its value well.

SpicyMikey

And the dramatic value difference really spikes when comparing fully maxed out cars. Because of how Acura doesn't allow factory installed options, and limits the trim package choices, they can add great value to their fully loaded products. I agree that most considering an Acura are already probably someone who wants a full featured car

KeithL

True when you look at a loaded Maxima and it gets near $40K for a NISSAN that is gettting nuts. I woudl have looked at a Maxima if it topped out around $35K, but not $40K, I mean for a tad more I got an AWD Tech TL!

Colin

I was supposed to be:
TL 30%
TL Tech 50%
TL AWD 5%
TL AWD Tech 13%
TL HPT 2%

Through most of last month we had 11-15 base TLs but only 4 Tech FWDs. We also had/have 4 more base AWDs but ZERO AWD Tech and no AWD HPTs. In our case, it would look like we're 'loaded' on inventory but we wouldn't have any selection of the car you really want.

I agree that the current TL has been more controversial than anything I've seen in my 14 years in the business, and I agree it would sell better if it were a little less polarizing. But, IMO, that is not the primary reason for the slow sales. I think that they somehow 'missed' something in the price/feature equation on the base model. Maybe the base TL just feels too 'stripped down'? Maybe a loaded V-6 Accord is offering 'too much' content compared to the TL (leather, navi, bluetooth, camera, etc)? I can't say, but the base was supposed to be a percentage of sales and these have been the hardest to move but the only thing we have on hand.

winstrolvtec

Agreed, it's the smartest financial decision you can make when buying a car. I will use the TLS as an example but this is true for all Acuras, many bought an 07 TLS 3 years ago for around $35k or $36k, discounted from MSDRP of $39k, and are now trading in and getting around $25 and $26 just on trade in, provided it has normal mileage and wear. So it only cost them $10k in 3 years or roughly $300 a month to own this car for the past 3 years. You can't get that anywhere else, no other brand can say that. We are talking about a 70%-75% return in 3 years. If only more people payed attention to stuff like.

winstrolvtec

Got some good news and some bad news. The bad news is Acura has not sold 115,828 units so far this year, that was last year by September, I fudged up and I admit it. They sold 76,628 and fortunately the year is not over. The good news is that actually puts Acura in 3rd in total sales YTD behind only BMW and MB, which is expected. The Lexus figures were also from 08 but so far this year they trailed Acura by a little over 200 units up until a few days ago. Acura is currently the leading Japanese luxury brand in NA and the TL is their leading model at 33.7% of total sales followed by the TSX at 27.7% then the MDX at 27.3%.

winstrolvtec

These charts got to go. I should be sleeping instead of reading this crap at almost 4AM. Something wrong with me anyway Acura as originally stated is actually 4th not 3rd in sales with Lexus behind BMW, MB, then Acura, but the other info is officially good, I hope.

KeithL

Close enough I guess but early I on read this:

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...9-acura-tl.htm

"Acura says it expects 70 percent of TL customers to select the Technology Package."

cp3117

Interesting numbers, thanks "ssim3"

Buick must be very happy being the lacrosse was designed to compete with the TL and ES and is already outselling the TL.

As i mentioned last month, while there maybe the odd dealer that is low in stock (like any other manufactuer at this time of the year) the majority still have lots of 09's and many here at Acurazine have already purchased 2010's and compared pricing to 09's on the lot when making their decision. IMO inventory is definately not the major issue here.

What many are forgeting is that during the summer Acura had some major promotions going on and now that their done sales are obviously going to drop. Whats also interesting is that last year at this time everyone was wondering what the breakdown was on sales between the 3G and 4G. Well we might just be starting to see that as Acura doesnt have the 3G sales to fall back on like last year.

SpicyMikey

That's not what I've gathered after listening to others and checking out the three dealerships here in Orlando. Regardless, can't say with certaintly that Acura had an inventory problem for 09's in September, but I'd be very interested in knowing what you know to make such a conclusive statement. Do you have national inventory numbers? That would be interesting to see. Please share.

cp3117

Is it normal for Honda/Acura to accept orders all year round??

When i was selling vehicles (various NA and japanese brands). May-July was the typical "build out" dates and you could never order certain models depending on the time of plant turn-around etc etc. I remember all sales staff scrambling to get sales orders in before the deadline. If Honda can accept orders all year that is a huge benifit, not only for Honda but for the salesmans pocket book too.......I wish now i would have sold Honda's years ago.

Im sure its tough for you guys to do dealer trades being on an island and all (or is it???). On average what have your sales been of tech vs Non, SH-AWD vas FWD at your dealership?? Whoever is ordering your stock should probably look closer at what the population in your area want. Did they typically order Non-Tech 3G TL's ??


Would that really make a difference in sales though considering your area and that those specific models make up a very small percentage of sales. (im not sure...maybe maybe not)

I think styling definately has a part in it as styling is very important in the luxury segment.

I have said before though that the price increase also has a large part to do with it as the competition in the TL range has become a lot tougher and people are seeing that there are other vehicles out there that provide the same if not better (in some cases) value.

cp3117

Thats why i said IMO (which stands for: In My Opinion).

We obviously gather things differently then as while some here say inventory is low, others say it isnt. This same debate has gone on over at TOV with the same results. Your area may be low while my area is way overstocked. This in turn though doesnt prevent dealer trading/purchasing.

People here though are making the TL sound like its the rarest thing in the world now and anyone who's been in the automotive industry will tell you that at this time of the year its always been that way especially when looking for something specific.

There are many different type of dealer inventory search engines out there on the internet and if you use one of them you will see. This is the lowest I have seen TL numbers for some time so im sure when they do improve (which they have too) im sure the inventory bandwagon will say "I told ya so, inventory was low"

SpicyMikey

I agree. You definitely said you thought inventory wasn't the issue in your opinion. But you first said "As i mentioned last month, while there maybe the odd dealer that is low in stock (like any other manufactuer at this time of the year) the majority still have lots of 09's".

That statement sounded like you knew something I didn't. Sometimes people have sources so I was just checking.

I can personally say with certainty that inventory in the entire Central Florida area was below levels I've ever seen this time of year. All the dealers had less than 10 units available all month. I checked. As far as everywhere else, I won't guess.

winstrolvtec

When Acura pulled back the dealer incentive some sales went with it, at the same time the competition started some of their own incentives. What is interesting to note is that in a few of the earlier months the 4G outsold the 3G from over a year ago and outside of that the 4G was fairly consistent all year except for the last few months. The car didn't change style all of a sudden, it sold decent all year, it could have done better but it outsold the G sedan, for whatever that's worth and it's not a knock on that car either.

Around here a few of the smaller dealers are lucky to have three TL's at all and the highest volume one has maybe 10, the lowest amount all year and it's been that way for a few months and they could have used the 2010's at least month earlier and even at that they only got a hand full in stock days ago with more still to come. Lately the SH/Tech has been one of the rarest cars and it’s not much but they could have sold 20-25% more units of that alone. The 09's may have been cut early but it seems to me the 2010's were also delayed or are taking their time to get here.

Styling is a valid point but is also a subjective measure, it's not as if the TL is on auto ugly, some really love the design and others not so much, kind of like all cars. On the other hand the controversy that surrounds the car may leave many a little hesitant with mixed feelings.

Some people will shop MSRP and think that for that price I can get this car or that car but the price increase in the TL is not the same as sales price. In some cases TL buyers managed to get an SH for what they paid for a TLS 3 years ago. In most cases it's a better value than it was before but this is not to say that the competition does not offer value, in certain ways the competition may be better suited for the specific market that the TL FWD is. Most people shopping in that market would probably prefer the ES and Lacrosse. Most luxury FWD buyers don't associate sport with that kind of car anyway so to trade that for a bit more of a luxurious feel and cushy ride probably makes more sense to them. The TL SH, specifically the 6MT, is where the TL really delivers.

cp3117

Ahh i hear what your saying.

I do believe and im not debating what your saying about inventory levels in your area.

I just check one search engine and yes inventory in your area seems low, but others like Infiniti, Audi etc also are low comparable to Acura and they have increases in sales.

This can be seen in many other areas too and this is why I dont buy this inventory theory.

Colin

Not all year round, but not as early February. I went back and looked and I had my dates wrong. The youngest base TL is 200 days old, meaning it would have been ordered about 260-290 days ago. This would mean the last time we ordered any substantial number of TLs was in February. (the oldest is over 300 days old).

Part of the 'problem' was that orders were shut off so soon after they started we never got the chance to change our distribution of models. We essentially have what was projected to be the split and we've found that most of our Techs are now gone. IMO the order for us should be 60-70% FWD Tech and 0% Base AWD. The rest can fall whereever.

And, no, we cannot do dealer trades. Once the car is delivered, dealers are responsible for any costs to shuffle inventory. This would mean $1100 to bring a car from the mainland. Obviously a deal breaker.

Up until 2007 we did not sell any Navigation equipped Acuras. Our roads were not on the DVD so there was no point. If I needed one (military moving back to the mainland for example) I could special order one, but they had to understand that it wouldn't work while they were here. Based on this, you would probably think it was safe to be heavy on base TLs. But one BIG difference between now and then is the addition of the other extras in the Tech vs. Navi package. DVD audio, pushbutton start etc. all enhance the appeal of the Tech, and make a base feel .... well... more debasing.

SpicyMikey

One thing is certain, no matter how low the TL sales are, Acura evidently thought it was going to be much lower this year. They clearly played it too conservative and didn't make enough for the 2009 MY. Maybe some pocket areas had inventory in August and September, but many salesmen left playing touch football in the empty parking lots in the back.

cp3117

All manufactuers thought the same though and this can be seen in their inventories also. Go over to vwvortex and salesmen over there have been screaming all summer for them to release the 2010's early. My local Audi dealer's showroom is 70% used cars as they have nothing else to put in the showroom.

Another example I saw this morning in my local paper is they have increased the rebates to $5000 now on TL's . This is almost double to last months rebates and they still have about 10 - 2009 Tech SH-AWD's on the lot plus FWD models. With the discounts people have been getting plus these new rebates there is no reason a person shouldnt be able to get a $8-9K discount on the TL's (including rebates).

I am not sure what the issue is but i know its not inventory in my area as they cant even give these things away.

SpicyMikey

Wow, $5000 dealer money? That got my attention. Unfortunately Edmunds doesn't show that. Still showing $1000-$2000 depending on model type. Maybe that's regional in Canada. I guess you're right, they do have a lot of TL's up there. Unfortunately, even the $1000 money is only on the 09's which, as I said, is in very short supply around me. With $8-9k off I would seriously consider trading in my RL early and getting one.