Reviving Acura
08-26-2008 | 07:26 PM
#41
My only car is a Bus
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,254
Likes: 1
From: Republik of Kalifornia
To be fair to Acura they don't have the large line-up that BMW, Audi, Mercedes, or Lexus has. 3 sedans and 2 SUVs aren't going to get you in the news very often. You don't hear about Infiniti as often as the 'big boys' but you do hear about them more than Acura but, again, they have a small line-up.
I'm sure Acura is working to increase their line-up with more cars but I think the brand started to go sideways in late-2006 and it's going to be at least another 3-5 years before they're where they claim to want to be among the 'Tier 1s' of the world. If you're in sales that's longer than forever.
I hope they pull themselves out of their tailspin because even though I don't sell Acuras anymore I do own one and I put a lot of my life into that company.
I'm sure Acura is working to increase their line-up with more cars but I think the brand started to go sideways in late-2006 and it's going to be at least another 3-5 years before they're where they claim to want to be among the 'Tier 1s' of the world. If you're in sales that's longer than forever.
I hope they pull themselves out of their tailspin because even though I don't sell Acuras anymore I do own one and I put a lot of my life into that company.
I don't blame you for leaving the company, because even though I drive an Acura and will purchase another one, there just isn't any excitement about the brand. For one, they need more vehicles in the lineup, and being that they're so damn secretive, it's hard to generate interest and excitement about the brand. Look at BMW, they are always in the news, you can't pick up a car magazine every month and not find something to read about them, whether it's a new vehicle, update to an existing vehicle or some new technology. But how often do you hear/read something on Acura? Hardly ever. So if I was an Acura salesman I'd probably leave them too.
08-26-2008 | 07:53 PM
#42
6G TLX-S
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,202
Likes: 1,162
From: YVR
I think Acura is crazy with that Tier 1 talk, because Tier 1 automakers push the envelope, they are not conservative. I'm not sure if Honda is holding Acura back with all this conservative shit or what, but if they want to be taken seriously and become major players in the upper luxury market, they're gonna have to man up and start taking some risks. It's comical how they tout the '09 TL as having the most powerful Acura engine ever, but it comes up short or equals the competition, but beats the RL and MDX engines by only 5 HP! Yeah technically it's the most powerful Acura engine, but that's not saying much, and to brag about a difference of 5 HP is silly. I doubt you would see BMW, Mercedes-Benz or Lexus do some shit like that. Acura doesn't need to revive their lineup or brand, they need to revive their way of thinking!
Take a look around. All successful $50K+ cars built by recognized luxury brands are RWD or AWD, and with powerful V8/V10 as option engines. Acura had taken a hugh gamble trying to crack into this Tier-1 realm without the right hardware (V8 and RWD), and lost the bid.
Now, to be armed later on with V8/V10 engines and RWD chassis, Acura can at least have a chance of working towards the Tier-1 status.
Remember that Lexus started off 19 years ago with a $40K V8 RWD sedan, and has succeeded to become a well-recognized luxury brand now selling even a $100K LS600hL flagship sedan. All Acura needs is to breathe FIRE into it's currently lame performing lineups.
08-26-2008 | 09:10 PM
#44
Be kind to us truckers !
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 576
Likes: 0
From: New Albany,IN
CL6, I hear you!...I'm a former HONDA Sales Consultant myself!......Look's like ACURA is trying to pull a copy cat on the seat's like AUDI & BMW, with different color's....and your right the line up is too small !..and leaving out V8's and RWD is also putting a hurting on them!.....they think V6's and FWD is the cure-all and adequet!....Being performance minded is "GREAT"...but lacking here!......I guess they don't want to build up the "MARQUE"...and brush aside "PRESTIGE"
08-26-2008 | 11:58 PM
#45
My only car is a Bus
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,254
Likes: 1
From: Republik of Kalifornia
What do you sell now? Killing the RSX with no replacement was bad. Killing the NSX off with no replacement was bad. Killing the CL with no replacement was bad. Putting ugly ass grilles on the RL/TL/TSX was bad. One has to ask what moron is calling the shots up there.
Take the smallest RWD car you have, stuff in the biggest engine you can find and sell the damn thing. Forget about finding a damn steak on your Navi... who gives a shit about that. Everybody else does that. Build well engineered, fun to drive, sporty, hot looking cars and then sell a ton of 'em!
Take the smallest RWD car you have, stuff in the biggest engine you can find and sell the damn thing. Forget about finding a damn steak on your Navi... who gives a shit about that. Everybody else does that. Build well engineered, fun to drive, sporty, hot looking cars and then sell a ton of 'em!
CL6, I hear you!...I'm a former HONDA Sales Consultant myself!......Look's like ACURA is trying to pull a copy cat on the seat's like AUDI & BMW, with different color's....and your right the line up is too small !..and leaving out V8's and RWD is also putting a hurting on them!.....they think V6's and FWD is the cure-all and adequet!....Being performance minded is "GREAT"...but lacking here!......I guess they don't want to build up the "MARQUE"...and brush aside "PRESTIGE"
08-27-2008 | 05:03 AM
#46
Suzuka Master
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,802
Likes: 1,012
There is some misunderstanding going on. Acura is setting a goat of becoming a true Tier 1 brand, but this current product is not that product. The G4 TL is a step, but this was in the planning stages long before the Tier 1 initiative was announced.
08-27-2008 | 06:03 AM
#47
Moderator
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 29,869
Likes: 3,489
What do you sell now? Killing the RSX with no replacement was bad. Killing the NSX off with no replacement was bad. Killing the CL with no replacement was bad. Putting ugly ass grilles on the RL/TL/TSX was bad. One has to ask what moron is calling the shots up there.
Take the smallest RWD car you have, stuff in the biggest engine you can find and sell the damn thing. Forget about finding a damn steak on your Navi... who gives a shit about that. Everybody else does that. Build well engineered, fun to drive, sporty, hot looking cars and then sell a ton of 'em!
Take the smallest RWD car you have, stuff in the biggest engine you can find and sell the damn thing. Forget about finding a damn steak on your Navi... who gives a shit about that. Everybody else does that. Build well engineered, fun to drive, sporty, hot looking cars and then sell a ton of 'em!
Although coupes don't sell too well, at least from what the numbers indicate. I'd think they would at least bring some lookers into the showroom though. I couldn't agree more with the 2nd part of your post...
08-27-2008 | 09:51 AM
#48
Racer
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 305
Likes: 6
From: Ocala, FL
Well people are questioning their decisions as a entry-level luxury brand, why should anyone feel that once they move to Tier 1 that they will become geniuses all of a sudden? A smart company would not move on to bigger and better things if they're not ready. They should right their ship first, THEN move on to Tier 1, not when they're still confused and trying to fgure out what type of product they want to sell. I don't really have a problem with the product that's being put out, it's the direction and the way of thinking that I have issues with. True, Acura has stated that they are not where they want to be, and they will get there in 4-5 years. But to be sucessful as a Tier 1 automaker, Acura is going to have to make some radical changes in terms of the way they think.
08-27-2008 | 02:12 PM
#49
My only car is a Bus
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,254
Likes: 1
From: Republik of Kalifornia
Coupes can be successful. Infiniti seems to do well with the G35/G37 and that car might be the signature passenger vehicle in their line-up. Honda is not Hyundai. They have the engineering, manufacturing, and financial resources to become Tier 1 with the next product they introduce. I think the Japanese that run Honda can't wrap their mind around what a Tier 1 brand is.
Imagine if the TL came out with RWD and an option for a V8 and if they threw in the servicing bills for 4 years or 50,000 miles. Just those very basic things would really change their standing. Even if few people ordered the V8 it would still be important. From my time at Acura I learned that Honda thinks they can tell the customer what they want (FWD is more practical, V6 is more efficient, sharing platforms with the Accord keeps the price down, etc.). Toyota went one way and Honda went another. Toyota has more cash on hand and a bigger image footprint than Honda does, which is a shame because I think Toyota builds crap vehicles.
Imagine if the TL came out with RWD and an option for a V8 and if they threw in the servicing bills for 4 years or 50,000 miles. Just those very basic things would really change their standing. Even if few people ordered the V8 it would still be important. From my time at Acura I learned that Honda thinks they can tell the customer what they want (FWD is more practical, V6 is more efficient, sharing platforms with the Accord keeps the price down, etc.). Toyota went one way and Honda went another. Toyota has more cash on hand and a bigger image footprint than Honda does, which is a shame because I think Toyota builds crap vehicles.
08-27-2008 | 03:52 PM
#50
6G TLX-S
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,202
Likes: 1,162
From: YVR
How many people will buy a $50K non-luxury-branded (non-Tier-1) car ?
Answer : Not many, as reflected by the increasingly poor sales figure for the current AWD RL.
Look at the new 2009 SH-AWD TL. It is virtually comparable with the SH-AWD RL. But even with a bigger 3.7L engine than the original RL's 3.5L, the new AWD TL is priced well under $43K. This is what the AWD RL should have been priced 4 years ago when it came out. But NO. Acura had to give it a $50K Tier-1 pricing, hoping this would lift the Acura brand towards being a Tier-1 brand image. No it didn't work this way. Not for the VW Phaeton, and not for the Acura RL either.
The moment Acura created the either-fully-loaded-or-no-car, no-V8-option-to-follow, heavy-ass AWD RL, and priced it at $50K, it had intentionally positioned the car to be a Tier-1 car. If the car is not a Tier-1 car, why give it a Tier-1 pricing, unless Acura like failures ?
In the beginning, Honda created Acura to be it's luxury division. There ain't no Tier-1, Tier-2, Tier-..... luxury brands. It's either luxury or economy brands. Due to the lack of V8 and RWD chassis, Acura found itself being stuck somewhere between true-luxury-brand level and economy-brand level. That's why Acura invented all this Tier-1 shit talks. It's nothing but to beautify the failure that Acura is still not able to become a true-luxury brand after 22 years in existence. It's all about face.
Acura has always been trying hard to become a luxury brand ever since day 1 it landed in North America.
08-27-2008 | 04:49 PM
#51
6G TLX-S
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,202
Likes: 1,162
From: YVR
As a comparison, the Hyundai Genesis sedan is a Tier-1 level car, but selling at a non-Tier-1 level pricing. => winning formula, just like the original $40K V8 RWD Lexus LS400 which did it's job well to elevate the Lexus brand to be a now-recognized true-luxury brand.
08-27-2008 | 04:56 PM
#52
Suzuka Master
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,802
Likes: 1,012
I'm not arguing anything below this ^^. I'm just clarifying that the TL is NOT the 'Tier-1' car that Acura talks about so holding it up and saying "Acura has failed to be Tier-1" is inaccurate. (mind you, I'm not saying you were saying this, I just wanted to be clear for all readers)
08-27-2008 | 05:00 PM
#53
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 226
Likes: 2
From: MD
There may be misunderstanding for the general public, but definitely no misunderstanding for the Honda top brasses.
How many people will buy a $50K non-luxury-branded (non-Tier-1) car ?
Answer : Not many, as reflected by the increasingly poor sales figure for the current AWD RL.
Look at the new 2009 SH-AWD TL. It is virtually comparable with the SH-AWD RL. But even with a bigger 3.7L engine than the original RL's 3.5L, the new AWD TL is priced well under $43K. This is what the AWD RL should have been priced 4 years ago when it came out. But NO. Acura had to give it a $50K Tier-1 pricing, hoping this would lift the Acura brand towards being a Tier-1 brand image. No it didn't work this way. Not for the VW Phaeton, and not for the Acura RL either.
The moment Acura created the either-fully-loaded-or-no-car, no-V8-option-to-follow, heavy-ass AWD RL, and priced it at $50K, it had intentionally positioned the car to be a Tier-1 car. If the car is not a Tier-1 car, why give it a Tier-1 pricing, unless Acura like failures ?
In the beginning, Honda created Acura to be it's luxury division. There ain't no Tier-1, Tier-2, Tier-..... luxury brands. It's either luxury or economy brands. Due to the lack of V8 and RWD chassis, Acura found itself being stuck somewhere between true-luxury-brand level and economy-brand level. That's why Acura invented all this Tier-1 shit talks. It's nothing but to beautify the failure that Acura is still not able to become a true-luxury brand after 22 years in existence. It's all about face.
Acura has always been trying hard to become a luxury brand ever since day 1 it landed in North America.
How many people will buy a $50K non-luxury-branded (non-Tier-1) car ?
Answer : Not many, as reflected by the increasingly poor sales figure for the current AWD RL.
Look at the new 2009 SH-AWD TL. It is virtually comparable with the SH-AWD RL. But even with a bigger 3.7L engine than the original RL's 3.5L, the new AWD TL is priced well under $43K. This is what the AWD RL should have been priced 4 years ago when it came out. But NO. Acura had to give it a $50K Tier-1 pricing, hoping this would lift the Acura brand towards being a Tier-1 brand image. No it didn't work this way. Not for the VW Phaeton, and not for the Acura RL either.
The moment Acura created the either-fully-loaded-or-no-car, no-V8-option-to-follow, heavy-ass AWD RL, and priced it at $50K, it had intentionally positioned the car to be a Tier-1 car. If the car is not a Tier-1 car, why give it a Tier-1 pricing, unless Acura like failures ?
In the beginning, Honda created Acura to be it's luxury division. There ain't no Tier-1, Tier-2, Tier-..... luxury brands. It's either luxury or economy brands. Due to the lack of V8 and RWD chassis, Acura found itself being stuck somewhere between true-luxury-brand level and economy-brand level. That's why Acura invented all this Tier-1 shit talks. It's nothing but to beautify the failure that Acura is still not able to become a true-luxury brand after 22 years in existence. It's all about face.
Acura has always been trying hard to become a luxury brand ever since day 1 it landed in North America.
08-27-2008 | 05:37 PM
#54
Not an Ashtray
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,818
Likes: 2
From: Stuck in traffic south of Burbank
I don't think RL sales has anything to do with not having a V8 option or having AWD. I would venture to say that most people buy V6 variants of cars with V8 options and most would prefer AWD to RWD, especially if they haul kids. IMO, the RL is just too bland. It doesn't evoke any emotion, good or bad. I don't think the RL lacked in any department in its class except for styling.
I'll disagree with you about RWD vs. AWD. BMW offers AWD variants of many the 3 series and 5 series. However, the RWD variants sell in much larger numbers.
AWD is somewhat of a specialty market. It is necessary - like a V8 availability - for a "halo" effect. But, many driver would prefer the lessor complexity and greater fuel economy of a car that drives on 2 wheels only.
And, speaking as somebody who lives in a warmer state (California) there is virtually no demand for AWD out here. If you have a vehicle that is only AWD (like the RL, Subaru products, and some Acuras), you are not going to get many sales in the sunbelt and West coast - a big chunk of US population.
08-27-2008 | 05:40 PM
#55
Not an Ashtray
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,818
Likes: 2
From: Stuck in traffic south of Burbank
As a comparison, the Hyundai Genesis sedan is a Tier-1 level car, but selling at a non-Tier-1 level pricing. => winning formula, just like the original $40K V8 RWD Lexus LS400 which did it's job well to elevate the Lexus brand to be a now-recognized true-luxury brand.
The comparison of the Hyundai Gensis to a Tier-1 car may prove to be inaccurate. I think it was Motor Trend that commented that some aspects of the fit and finish were below the level set by the Chevy Malibu. On the Consumer Reports chatboard, one editor commented that he thought the Kia Amanti was an equivalent car for about $1000 less.
08-27-2008 | 05:46 PM
#56
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 226
Likes: 2
From: MD
I'll disagree with you about RWD vs. AWD. BMW offers AWD variants of many the 3 series and 5 series. However, the RWD variants sell in much larger numbers.
AWD is somewhat of a specialty market. It is necessary - like a V8 availability - for a "halo" effect. But, many driver would prefer the lessor complexity and greater fuel economy of a car that drives on 2 wheels only.
And, speaking as somebody who lives in a warmer state (California) there is virtually no demand for AWD out here. If you have a vehicle that is only AWD (like the RL, Subaru products, and some Acuras), you are not going to get many sales in the sunbelt and West coast - a big chunk of US population.
AWD is somewhat of a specialty market. It is necessary - like a V8 availability - for a "halo" effect. But, many driver would prefer the lessor complexity and greater fuel economy of a car that drives on 2 wheels only.
And, speaking as somebody who lives in a warmer state (California) there is virtually no demand for AWD out here. If you have a vehicle that is only AWD (like the RL, Subaru products, and some Acuras), you are not going to get many sales in the sunbelt and West coast - a big chunk of US population.
08-27-2008 | 07:58 PM
#58
My only car is a Bus
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,254
Likes: 1
From: Republik of Kalifornia
I think you fail to grasp the definition of 'Tier 1.' Hyundai has not reached that point yet.
As a comparison, the Hyundai Genesis sedan is a Tier-1 level car, but selling at a non-Tier-1 level pricing. => winning formula, just like the original $40K V8 RWD Lexus LS400 which did it's job well to elevate the Lexus brand to be a now-recognized true-luxury brand.
08-27-2008 | 08:09 PM
#59
AZ Community Team
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 18,236
Likes: 4,328
From: Maryland
As a comparison, the Hyundai Genesis sedan is a Tier-1 level car, but selling at a non-Tier-1 level pricing. => winning formula, just like the original $40K V8 RWD Lexus LS400 which did it's job well to elevate the Lexus brand to be a now-recognized true-luxury brand.
08-27-2008 | 09:38 PM
#60
Be kind to us truckers !
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 576
Likes: 0
From: New Albany,IN
CL6, I'm back to Local truck driving !.....getting rid of the RSX was mistake!....I don't think HONDA will ever snap out of it !......if "Soichiro" was still around heads would roll!...and Takeo fukui's would be one of them!
08-27-2008 | 09:46 PM
#61
Be kind to us truckers !
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 576
Likes: 0
From: New Albany,IN
ACURA coupes would sell if they didn't look like crap and had RWD with big engines & of be overpriced!.....the European's have been doing it for decades...have you forgotten PORSCHE,FERRARI or LAMBORGINI
08-27-2008 | 09:53 PM
#62
My only car is a Bus
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,254
Likes: 1
From: Republik of Kalifornia
Yes, Mr. Honda was the driving force behind the NSX and when he died, his vision of the company died in a way. It's too bad his son wasn't appointed to run Honda. I think I heard Dad didn't want that. I think the son runs Spoon or something like that.
Going from car sales to truck driving... man that's one tough career into another.
The cheapie RSX should have been replaced with a more expensive one. I love my CL but it's not what I'd call a 'hot' looking car. Hell, I bought it because nobody will notice it and it won't get broken into/stolen. Guess I'm a small market. But if Acura came out with a 'hot' coupe they'd sell for sure.
Going from car sales to truck driving... man that's one tough career into another.
The cheapie RSX should have been replaced with a more expensive one. I love my CL but it's not what I'd call a 'hot' looking car. Hell, I bought it because nobody will notice it and it won't get broken into/stolen. Guess I'm a small market. But if Acura came out with a 'hot' coupe they'd sell for sure.
Last edited by CL6; 08-27-2008 at 09:56 PM.
08-28-2008 | 07:49 AM
#65
Be kind to us truckers !
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 576
Likes: 0
From: New Albany,IN
Yes, Mr. Honda was the driving force behind the NSX and when he died, his vision of the company died in a way. It's too bad his son wasn't appointed to run Honda. I think I heard Dad didn't want that. I think the son runs Spoon or something like that.
Going from car sales to truck driving... man that's one tough career into another.
The cheapie RSX should have been replaced with a more expensive one. I love my CL but it's not what I'd call a 'hot' looking car. Hell, I bought it because nobody will notice it and it won't get broken into/stolen. Guess I'm a small market. But if Acura came out with a 'hot' coupe they'd sell for sure.
Going from car sales to truck driving... man that's one tough career into another.
The cheapie RSX should have been replaced with a more expensive one. I love my CL but it's not what I'd call a 'hot' looking car. Hell, I bought it because nobody will notice it and it won't get broken into/stolen. Guess I'm a small market. But if Acura came out with a 'hot' coupe they'd sell for sure.
08-28-2008 | 08:20 AM
#66
Senior Moderator
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 20,020
Likes: 4,618
From: Cleveland area, OH
This is an interesting discussion. We've had this very discussion in the past on the RL board in the last year, as RL sales slumped. I think Acura has simply decided to swallow its pride and start over. The TL will sell, but not like the last gen. I am hopeful that the next RL in two years will have bold yet appealing styling and a RWD option so it will be recognized, as well as awd for folks like me in the snowbelt.
I think Acura should tap some enthusiasts to show designs to in addition to whoever the general public is that they used as a test marketing group. That will avoid overly polarizing designs like the Power Phlegm grille.
My plan is to keep my RL until the next gen cars are released and see what happens, unless something better comes along.
I think Acura should tap some enthusiasts to show designs to in addition to whoever the general public is that they used as a test marketing group. That will avoid overly polarizing designs like the Power Phlegm grille.
My plan is to keep my RL until the next gen cars are released and see what happens, unless something better comes along.
08-28-2008 | 09:50 AM
#67
AZ Community Team
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 18,236
Likes: 4,328
From: Maryland
This is a interesting thread although some of the memories can short sighted. Alot of folks forget the NSX and 2G Legend, both of which were on exclusive platforms. In it's time the 2G Legend competed quite well in it's class in reviews. From a business point of view it was expensive since extremely little from it had parts bin engineering.
The NSX is a similar story, really impressive design that competed in it's early years against the cars in it's class (Ferrari 348 and Porsche 911). It bested them in a few comparison tests. Again it's exclusive design and sole manufacturing facility were expensive.
Although both were reconized by the auto press, the marketing and public perception did not follow up. So Acura finally realized it needed to drop the names (Legend and Integra which were actually more publicly known than Acura!) and go with simple nomenclature of their model names. Again unfortunately this occured in the mid-90's which was by almost all opinion the worst styling period in the history of Honda/Acura.
However since that time Acura has crawled back up to it's current level. The original newspaper article was a bit over the top in it's "reviving Acura", I think the 3G TL did a excellent job in doing so.
We could debate the RWD and V8 issues forever, but Acura has come a long way. Folks then to forget they were the first Japanese automaker bold enough to introduce a luxury line in the US. They have stumbled a few times but so has Lexus (ES250) and Infiniti (I've lost track of how many forgotten Infiniti models there were). The 1G MDX and 3G TL both did a tremendous amount to revive the brand. It's hard to predict the 4G TL market acceptance but the sales numbers for the 3G speak very well for it (and the 2G numbers were also pretty decent).
FWIW the current CEO (Takeo Fukui) of Honda was the project leader for the 1G Integra. There was a funny story in the Wall Street Journal that the old man (Soichiro Honda) was taking out the 1G Integra prototype on their test track and was driving very fast before a turn. Soichiro waited until the very last moment before slamming on the brakes, Takeo cringed and braced himself in the passenger seat since he was not sure if the brakes were up stopping that quick. Soichiro berated him in the car about the values of engineering and testing and getting it right, then said apparently complemented him on the good brakes. My wife had a 1G Integra and it indeed had great brakes.
Hey isn't it time for another Acura brake sizer discussion
The NSX is a similar story, really impressive design that competed in it's early years against the cars in it's class (Ferrari 348 and Porsche 911). It bested them in a few comparison tests. Again it's exclusive design and sole manufacturing facility were expensive.
Although both were reconized by the auto press, the marketing and public perception did not follow up. So Acura finally realized it needed to drop the names (Legend and Integra which were actually more publicly known than Acura!) and go with simple nomenclature of their model names. Again unfortunately this occured in the mid-90's which was by almost all opinion the worst styling period in the history of Honda/Acura.
However since that time Acura has crawled back up to it's current level. The original newspaper article was a bit over the top in it's "reviving Acura", I think the 3G TL did a excellent job in doing so.
We could debate the RWD and V8 issues forever, but Acura has come a long way. Folks then to forget they were the first Japanese automaker bold enough to introduce a luxury line in the US. They have stumbled a few times but so has Lexus (ES250) and Infiniti (I've lost track of how many forgotten Infiniti models there were). The 1G MDX and 3G TL both did a tremendous amount to revive the brand. It's hard to predict the 4G TL market acceptance but the sales numbers for the 3G speak very well for it (and the 2G numbers were also pretty decent).
FWIW the current CEO (Takeo Fukui) of Honda was the project leader for the 1G Integra. There was a funny story in the Wall Street Journal that the old man (Soichiro Honda) was taking out the 1G Integra prototype on their test track and was driving very fast before a turn. Soichiro waited until the very last moment before slamming on the brakes, Takeo cringed and braced himself in the passenger seat since he was not sure if the brakes were up stopping that quick. Soichiro berated him in the car about the values of engineering and testing and getting it right, then said apparently complemented him on the good brakes. My wife had a 1G Integra and it indeed had great brakes.
Hey isn't it time for another Acura brake sizer discussion
08-28-2008 | 06:16 PM
#69
Suzuka Master
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 5,172
Likes: 740
From: Atlanta, GA
As a comparison, the Hyundai Genesis sedan is a Tier-1 level car, but selling at a non-Tier-1 level pricing. => winning formula, just like the original $40K V8 RWD Lexus LS400 which did it's job well to elevate the Lexus brand to be a now-recognized true-luxury brand.
08-28-2008 | 06:34 PM
#70
6G TLX-S
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,202
Likes: 1,162
From: YVR
The differene here is that Toyota spun off a new brand. I liek the Genesis, I drove one 2 weeks ago, build quality features performance all very good and a bargain for the price, BUT at the end of the day it is a $40K Hyundai!! I mean I go to Acura I am in an upscale dealership, nice amenities, loaner cars, and basically a more upscale environment and clientel. If I buy a Genesis I am in a high volume basic dealership, I go to service and I'd be sititng next to the guy with his Elantra or I'm going to pull up with a car that looks way out of place for the dealership. Don't get me wrong, I love what Hyundai is doing, but by going for that market even at $40K is a tough nut to crack. I'm curious to see the Genesis coupe next year!!
08-28-2008 | 07:26 PM
#71
Cruisin'
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
From: CT
Have been a Acura owner since 95 the best car was the Legend, and they have gone down each year. No 7 speed like the G37 they could of put a 6 speed in at least. 42,000 for the one you want I buy a BMW for that money. I will keep my 04 for a little longer, but need more from Acura very disappointed.
08-28-2008 | 07:27 PM
#72
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,796
Likes: 1,400
From: NC
Back on Topic
I am too lazy to find the article right now but it basically said that Acura knows where they wanna be & they are working towards getting there. The new 2009 cars are a stepping stone but the next generation, which is why they keep saying 5 years, will move them to Tier 1.
Now taking this seriously, I do believe that the 2009 TL is a step in that direction. You have actual choices now ... no, manual/auto & navi/no navi are not real choices. They have 2 models w/ 2 engines that are clearly geared to 2 different types of customers.
I think that the TL has always been pretty much right on the $$$ in terms of entry level luxury. They stuck w/ v6 & FWD as long as they could but as the horsepower wars made it more & more challenging, Acura has finally decided to make that move starting w/ SH-AWD.
Of course, Acura still needs their flagship (be it the next RL or a new model), their halo NSX & moving the TSX upmarket so that it is clearly entry level luxury.
Now taking this seriously, I do believe that the 2009 TL is a step in that direction. You have actual choices now ... no, manual/auto & navi/no navi are not real choices. They have 2 models w/ 2 engines that are clearly geared to 2 different types of customers.
I think that the TL has always been pretty much right on the $$$ in terms of entry level luxury. They stuck w/ v6 & FWD as long as they could but as the horsepower wars made it more & more challenging, Acura has finally decided to make that move starting w/ SH-AWD.
Of course, Acura still needs their flagship (be it the next RL or a new model), their halo NSX & moving the TSX upmarket so that it is clearly entry level luxury.
08-28-2008 | 09:00 PM
#73
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 226
Likes: 2
From: MD
Have been a Acura owner since 95 the best car was the Legend, and they have gone down each year. No 7 speed like the G37 they could of put a 6 speed in at least. 42,000 for the one you want I buy a BMW for that money. I will keep my 04 for a little longer, but need more from Acura very disappointed.
08-28-2008 | 09:25 PM
#75
Be kind to us truckers !
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 576
Likes: 0
From: New Albany,IN
This is a interesting thread although some of the memories can short sighted. Alot of folks forget the NSX and 2G Legend, both of which were on exclusive platforms. In it's time the 2G Legend competed quite well in it's class in reviews. From a business point of view it was expensive since extremely little from it had parts bin engineering.
The NSX is a similar story, really impressive design that competed in it's early years against the cars in it's class (Ferrari 348 and Porsche 911). It bested them in a few comparison tests. Again it's exclusive design and sole manufacturing facility were expensive.
Although both were reconized by the auto press, the marketing and public perception did not follow up. So Acura finally realized it needed to drop the names (Legend and Integra which were actually more publicly known than Acura!) and go with simple nomenclature of their model names. Again unfortunately this occured in the mid-90's which was by almost all opinion the worst styling period in the history of Honda/Acura.
However since that time Acura has crawled back up to it's current level. The original newspaper article was a bit over the top in it's "reviving Acura", I think the 3G TL did a excellent job in doing so.
We could debate the RWD and V8 issues forever, but Acura has come a long way. Folks then to forget they were the first Japanese automaker bold enough to introduce a luxury line in the US. They have stumbled a few times but so has Lexus (ES250) and Infiniti (I've lost track of how many forgotten Infiniti models there were). The 1G MDX and 3G TL both did a tremendous amount to revive the brand. It's hard to predict the 4G TL market acceptance but the sales numbers for the 3G speak very well for it (and the 2G numbers were also pretty decent).
FWIW the current CEO (Takeo Fukui) of Honda was the project leader for the 1G Integra. There was a funny story in the Wall Street Journal that the old man (Soichiro Honda) was taking out the 1G Integra prototype on their test track and was driving very fast before a turn. Soichiro waited until the very last moment before slamming on the brakes, Takeo cringed and braced himself in the passenger seat since he was not sure if the brakes were up stopping that quick. Soichiro berated him in the car about the values of engineering and testing and getting it right, then said apparently complemented him on the good brakes. My wife had a 1G Integra and it indeed had great brakes.
Hey isn't it time for another Acura brake sizer discussion
The NSX is a similar story, really impressive design that competed in it's early years against the cars in it's class (Ferrari 348 and Porsche 911). It bested them in a few comparison tests. Again it's exclusive design and sole manufacturing facility were expensive.
Although both were reconized by the auto press, the marketing and public perception did not follow up. So Acura finally realized it needed to drop the names (Legend and Integra which were actually more publicly known than Acura!) and go with simple nomenclature of their model names. Again unfortunately this occured in the mid-90's which was by almost all opinion the worst styling period in the history of Honda/Acura.
However since that time Acura has crawled back up to it's current level. The original newspaper article was a bit over the top in it's "reviving Acura", I think the 3G TL did a excellent job in doing so.
We could debate the RWD and V8 issues forever, but Acura has come a long way. Folks then to forget they were the first Japanese automaker bold enough to introduce a luxury line in the US. They have stumbled a few times but so has Lexus (ES250) and Infiniti (I've lost track of how many forgotten Infiniti models there were). The 1G MDX and 3G TL both did a tremendous amount to revive the brand. It's hard to predict the 4G TL market acceptance but the sales numbers for the 3G speak very well for it (and the 2G numbers were also pretty decent).
FWIW the current CEO (Takeo Fukui) of Honda was the project leader for the 1G Integra. There was a funny story in the Wall Street Journal that the old man (Soichiro Honda) was taking out the 1G Integra prototype on their test track and was driving very fast before a turn. Soichiro waited until the very last moment before slamming on the brakes, Takeo cringed and braced himself in the passenger seat since he was not sure if the brakes were up stopping that quick. Soichiro berated him in the car about the values of engineering and testing and getting it right, then said apparently complemented him on the good brakes. My wife had a 1G Integra and it indeed had great brakes.
Hey isn't it time for another Acura brake sizer discussion
08-28-2008 | 10:07 PM
#76
I am too lazy to find the article right now but it basically said that Acura knows where they wanna be & they are working towards getting there. The new 2009 cars are a stepping stone but the next generation, which is why they keep saying 5 years, will move them to Tier 1.
Now taking this seriously, I do believe that the 2009 TL is a step in that direction. You have actual choices now ... no, manual/auto & navi/no navi are not real choices. They have 2 models w/ 2 engines that are clearly geared to 2 different types of customers.
I think that the TL has always been pretty much right on the $$$ in terms of entry level luxury. They stuck w/ v6 & FWD as long as they could but as the horsepower wars made it more & more challenging, Acura has finally decided to make that move starting w/ SH-AWD.
Of course, Acura still needs their flagship (be it the next RL or a new model), their halo NSX & moving the TSX upmarket so that it is clearly entry level luxury.
Now taking this seriously, I do believe that the 2009 TL is a step in that direction. You have actual choices now ... no, manual/auto & navi/no navi are not real choices. They have 2 models w/ 2 engines that are clearly geared to 2 different types of customers.
I think that the TL has always been pretty much right on the $$$ in terms of entry level luxury. They stuck w/ v6 & FWD as long as they could but as the horsepower wars made it more & more challenging, Acura has finally decided to make that move starting w/ SH-AWD.
Of course, Acura still needs their flagship (be it the next RL or a new model), their halo NSX & moving the TSX upmarket so that it is clearly entry level luxury.
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10015470-48.html
Acura will become a Tier 1 luxury brand--the models are on their way.
So says Dan Bonawitz, vice president for corporate planning and logistics at American Honda Motor Co.
For decades, Acura has been limping along as a wannabe luxury brand. The vehicles have never been considered competitors to Mercedes, BMW, or Lexus.
One reason, critics say, is that Acura lacks a large, prestigious, V-8-powered sedan. Another reason is that the brand has avoided rear-drive.
Now, Acura finally is distancing itself from the Honda brand. Two dedicated Acura design centers have opened--one in the United States and the other in Japan. Earlier this year, Rubin Postaer and Associates, the U.S. ad agency for both brands, created a separate division for Acura.
Luxury vehicles are on their way, Bonawitz says. The first step toward Tier 1 status is the redesigned 2009 TL sedan.
"The TL is close but not right at Tier 1," he says. "Then we will have an all-new vehicle in 2010 that's about the same level as TL. After that, we will have a sedan coming that will clearly put us in Tier 1."
Bonawitz did not say when that sedan will reach the market or whether it will replace the RL sedan, but he did hint that the car will be on sale before 2012.
As for the V-8, Bonawitz says high gasoline prices have made the bigger engine "less important" but certainly "not unimportant."
TSX: The small sedan was redesigned for the 2009 model year. Sales began in April.
TL: The mid-sized sedan has been redesigned for the 2009 model year, with sales starting this fall.
The TL sports exterior styling that is dramatically different from that of the 2008 model. For the first time, the TL will be available with all-wheel drive. The 3.5-liter V-6 has been carried over from the 2008 model.
Coupe: Details are sketchy. John Watts, Acura's product planning manager, says any additions to the Acura lineup will probably be in niche segments. "We will look at smaller segments," he says. "There is potential for a coupe like the CL," which was killed after the 2003 model year. "A retractable hard top--we're always looking at that, too," Watts says, "but that market is fickle."
Some sources say Acura will offer a four-seat, sports coupe priced in the $50,000 range that also will come in a convertible version.
RL: Acura's poor-performing flagship model was reskinned for the 2009 model year. Sales began in the spring.
Luxury sedan: In an effort to take on the big boys, namely Mercedes-Benz and BMW, a large luxury sedan is due around the 2011 or 2012 model year. The unnamed sedan may be powered by a 4.5-liter V-8 generating more than 400 horsepower. Rear-wheel drive is a possibility, with available AWD.
NSX: A sports car will debut for the 2011 model year and boast a 5.5-liter V-10 engine making about 550 horsepower and 420 pounds-feet of torque. Sources say it will have a front-engine layout and incorporate AWD. The NSX, which had a midengine layout, went out of production in 2005.
Also unclear is whether the new one will seat two or have a 2+2 configuration.
RDX: The small crossover is due for a redesign for the 2011 model year. A hybrid may be added.
MDX: A redesign is scheduled for the 2011 model year, when a V-6 diesel will be offered.
(Source: Automotive News)
08-28-2008 | 11:04 PM
#78
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,796
Likes: 1,400
From: NC
Found the Article
10 Questions about Honda
Honda's Dick Colliver talks about cars, the local work force, the company's future
Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:01 AM
By Tracy Turner
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
Ohio "should feel comfortable with Honda," says Richard E. Colliver, executive vice president of Honda's U.S. automobile sales. "We've made major investments here and we're here to stay."
This week, Honda of America rolled out its highly anticipated 2009 Acura TL sport sedan, an entry-level luxury vehicle that got a makeover.
Richard E. Colliver, the automaker's No. 2 man in North America, was in central Ohio this week for the introduction of the new-look vehicle.
His presence demonstrated Honda's view that central Ohio is an important part of the company's future.
Colliver, whose formal title is executive vice president of automobile sales, had these thoughts on Honda and the company's commitment to Ohio.
tturner@dispatch.com
1 Honda's sales have been strong despite the poor economy. Has the company felt the downturn?
2 How has Honda adapted?
We're not announcing any new models or changes right now in Ohio. We've shifted production to increase production on Civics and more fuel-efficient vehicles, but right now, we don't have any plans to bring any additional models.6 Honda has plans to introduce a hybrid-only model that will be built in Japan. What are the prospects for Honda eventually building hybrids in the U.S. and how might Ohio figure into that process?
We feel like maybe we were smart and lucky. We felt a lot of pressure when the large truck got to more than 50 percent of the market, with a large percentage of those with V-8 engines. But our plan was to stay with our core direction of where we wanted to grow, and building fuel-efficient cars that were reliable. Now they are saying the market is coming back to us.9 Any more green cars coming down the line?
The people in Ohio should feel comfortable with Honda. We've made major investments here and we're here to stay. We're going to continue to grow our business and we have a huge contingency of research and development here that are involved in developing new products for us. The work ethic of the people in the Midwest was a strong reason why we built plants here. We're bullish on the future of Ohio.
Honda's Dick Colliver talks about cars, the local work force, the company's future
Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:01 AM
By Tracy Turner
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
Ohio "should feel comfortable with Honda," says Richard E. Colliver, executive vice president of Honda's U.S. automobile sales. "We've made major investments here and we're here to stay."
This week, Honda of America rolled out its highly anticipated 2009 Acura TL sport sedan, an entry-level luxury vehicle that got a makeover.
Richard E. Colliver, the automaker's No. 2 man in North America, was in central Ohio this week for the introduction of the new-look vehicle.
His presence demonstrated Honda's view that central Ohio is an important part of the company's future.
Colliver, whose formal title is executive vice president of automobile sales, had these thoughts on Honda and the company's commitment to Ohio.
tturner@dispatch.com
1 Honda's sales have been strong despite the poor economy. Has the company felt the downturn?
We're not immune to what's going on in the industry. We've had to adjust production because of the light truck sales where we've seen declines but not as bad as some of the others in the industry.
2 How has Honda adapted?
We anticipated that we were going to be in a higher-gas-price, lower-fuel-economy market. And our business plan we put together last November stressed that we needed to go back to the basics of the strength of our brand, which was the fuel economy, the cost of ownership and value of our product. Because of the availability of products like the Civic, the Fit and the Accord, we were perfectly positioned to address the market as the oil prices started ramping up.
3 Did Honda anticipate how devastating the credit crunch would be to the economy and result in banks tightening access to loans, including auto loans?No, we didn't see it coming to be as bad as it is. But having been in the finance business, and seeing what was being done on real-estate loans and even some auto loans, I knew that the odds of that imploding was coming. When I was in Japan at headquarters in October, all the high-ranking finance people wanted to talk about was the availability of financing and how the subprime market could potentially impact our business.
4 Ohio has seen a rapid drop in automotive jobs, with Honda being one of the few employers that held steady. What's the outlook for Honda?Our employment base is going to be stable. Because of the Indiana plant, we've had to make some adjustments to (expand) some our facilities, which has required us to add a few people. Our suppliers have had to add people, so overall, we estimate that's resulted in over a billion-dollar impact to Ohio. Ohio's really the center of the heartbeat of Honda manufacturing in North America.
5 Are there any new models or expansion plans that could bring more jobs and increase the headcount in central Ohio?We're not announcing any new models or changes right now in Ohio. We've shifted production to increase production on Civics and more fuel-efficient vehicles, but right now, we don't have any plans to bring any additional models.
You can never say never, but right now, this is a brand new global model that's going to be distributed all over the world, with the planned production around 200,000. We have a saying at Honda that with a new car, there is a mother ship, which basically means where it's designed and developed and originally built. And that mother ship is in Japan for this car.
7 What is Acura's niche in the luxury market and how do you respond to critics who say the brand doesn't have a clear enough identity?We've had some issues over the past about getting the resources and the right product for the market at the time, but I'll say this: The future for Acura is very clear for us and where we want to take it. We know what the next five- to six-year product plan is. As we redefine what the next generation of these models are going to be, it's going to take us into the top-tier luxury segment.
8 Honda never got into the larger SUV V-8 engine market. Are you now glad the company made that decision, considering the market declines for those vehicles?We feel like maybe we were smart and lucky. We felt a lot of pressure when the large truck got to more than 50 percent of the market, with a large percentage of those with V-8 engines. But our plan was to stay with our core direction of where we wanted to grow, and building fuel-efficient cars that were reliable. Now they are saying the market is coming back to us.
Our global strategy for the hybrid is to grow that segment significantly. We're anticipating 500,000 units a year . In addition to the new global hybrid that we will introduce next spring, we'll also announce that we're going to bring in a model based on the CR-V.
10 Any parting thoughts?The people in Ohio should feel comfortable with Honda. We've made major investments here and we're here to stay. We're going to continue to grow our business and we have a huge contingency of research and development here that are involved in developing new products for us. The work ethic of the people in the Midwest was a strong reason why we built plants here. We're bullish on the future of Ohio.
08-29-2008 | 08:51 AM
#80
AZ Community Team
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 18,236
Likes: 4,328
From: Maryland
I like alot people on this forum don't like the exterior styling of the 4G TL but I'll have to wait and see one up close. I felt the new 5 and 7 series BMW's were in the same league when they came out with the Bangle butt. Now after many years that rear-end seems normal for BMW sedans. Still the 4G TL exterior looks awkward compared to the still fresh line of the 3G TL.
The two things underneigh that are disturbing is the lack of a 6 or 7 speed AT, and the ever increasing weight. The weight is across the board on most automanufactures since heck now 3 series is ~3500lb. I'm really surprised Honda/Acura have not gotten a 6AT to market yet, heck the new Malibu went from a pretty ancient 4AT to a 6AT this year.
The two things underneigh that are disturbing is the lack of a 6 or 7 speed AT, and the ever increasing weight. The weight is across the board on most automanufactures since heck now 3 series is ~3500lb. I'm really surprised Honda/Acura have not gotten a 6AT to market yet, heck the new Malibu went from a pretty ancient 4AT to a 6AT this year.