iforyou

iTrader: (1)

This article has already been posted in the Car Talk forum, but I thought you 4G guys would like to read it too.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/index.ph...door-firepower

4th: TL
3rd: G37
2nd: 335i
1st: S4

Don't worry too much about the rankings, the TL actually did pretty well. It just lost a lot of marks from the subjective category (styling, brake feel, steering feel, etc). It posted the 2nd fastest lap time, and it's also $14k cheaper than the 1st place S4 (yea...talk about fair comparison....). Straightline performance isn't bad too as it can do 0-60mph in 5.2s and 1/4 mile in 13.7s@102.5mph.

Pete2010

Well the review is totally spot on. They hit all that's good and bad about the TL. But comeon... the price diff between the lowest and highest is like 18k... seriously? It would be RARE the same person would be looking at both the G & S4.

PetesTL

Why is it that the 4G is continually being compared against cars it no longer shares any traits with?

The 4G is a midsize car. The 3 series and the A4 are compact cars. The 4G is much heavier and larger than any of its supposed competitors, so of course it's going to be handicapped right out of the box and come in last. Is anyone really surprised? The 3G was a more appropriate car in competiting with the 3 series and A4 but even then, it was still a bigger car.

If you want a true and realisitic comparision, you have to include cars that are similar in size and weight to the 4G.....cars like the CTS, A6, 530i, E350, Saab 9-5, Lexus GS, Lincoln MKS, and Volvo S60. Sure, the price differential can be enormous among these cars but at least they're physically similar. A S4 has absolutely nothing in common with a 4G, either in size or price.

jasonwdp10

Pete i'm not going to say you're wrong, but a year or so back, Acura held a driving even for the 6MT TL. The cars they chose to compete with it were the 335, S4, G35. Acura wanted to showcase the 6mt's agility (for its size), and in this case, it just didn't do well. I don't know many people cross shopping a 6mt sedan vs cars like the 5 series and lexus GS. Most of the people i know that drive those cars, want to for the name. Acura still has a long way to go to convince people the TL belongs in that category, especially when the RL competes directly in that category, closer in price and features than the TL.

jasonwdp10

I do understand their gripes about the steering and low torque tho

PetesTL

Well who cross-shops a TL with a S4?

You don't do a comparison test based on what people may or maynot buy or brand name recognition. The TL has evolved in a totally different car than its predecessor. If you're going to do a fair test, you have to compare it to cars it shares the most traits with, regardless of brand.

btomcik

I shopped an S4, A4, 335xi and TL SH-AWD when looking for cars last November.

A4 - too small, not powerful enough for my likes
S4 - too small, power was FANTASTIC, more expensive than what I wanted to pay
335xi - just a little more than what I wanted to pay
TL - thought I got great performance and thought it was a value for the money compared to 335xi

docboy

I did. I believe (quite a) few of us cross shopped the TL with a S4.

I don't want to generalize, but the ones who purchased TL 6MT were due to the S4's near $60k price tag, and the TL's reliability and practicality as a family hauler. I did.

George Knighton

I did not seriously cross shop the S4 because it was completely beyond the price range that I was looking at.

jspagna1

To tell you the truth when we were shopping for a new car my wife & I were looking at the 2010 Maxima SV, ES350, and the TL in that order.

Pete2010

I could have "shopped" the S4 by taking it for a test drive. But I don't think I'd spend that kind of money on a Daily Driver. At least living up here in MA - RWD all year just sucks.

prepreludesh

I hate to continually see the TL get dinged from all of these contests when they can match or beat the performance numbers of other cars, only because of the styling ques. Cars are made in different shapes and styles to attract people to it and so that we're all not driving around in the same car like Soviet Russia.

I honestly don't get the steering issue. I thought the TL was great with steering? The clutch I can see as a little annoying, but everything else is spot-on with the car. As for all the buttons inside, that's a joke and a half because they're logically laid out and are plenty large and practical. There is no way the TL should've placed 4th...

BoostLover

I cross shopped the TL (SW-AWD 6MT) against the S4, too.

winstrolvtec

First off, the performance numbers are much better than anything I ever thought the car could do. As for the comparo, it's no coincidence that the car that places last is also the car that is farthest away from that mold of vehicle.

PetesTL is spot on with his assessments. The TL competes with these cars strictly because of price and because it is the only Acura sedan of the TSX and TL that can actually compete performance wise but technically it's not Acura's entry level sedan and it's larger and heavier than anything in this comparo. There is no denying where it falls short in pure enthusiast and the magazines eyes but it is mostly subjective. Most of us actually prefer the softer "feel" and like the look and style. It's not intended to be as hard core of an enthusiast sport sedan or as pure as the rest because it blends traits of a softer mid level luxury sedan as well.

Most of us shopped sedans, in and around the TL price range. The TL itself has a very broad appeal not only in price but also in size so there are a lot of cars you can compare it with. I admit, I shopped the S4 with the TL but I do think the TL is much more in line with the A6 and for the money of the S4, I would much rather have had the A6 because I prefer the larger more luxury themed sedan over the smaller sportier one and that is what the TL actually is compared to those other cars in the comparo and again that is exactly why it's always last in these types of comparisons.

It's no secret that if you want the type of car found in this comparo the TL is probably the last one you want to choose. If you want the type of car you find in a mid level sedan than it changes the game completely. It's all in the perspective of just what one views the TL as. It's not outrageous to think that people also compare the TL to other large mid sized sedans like the E class, 5 series, CTS, STS, etc. Perhaps in price but then that means it comes down to how you shop as an individual, whether you read the menu left to right or right to left.

The only other large luxury mid sized sedan that couples AWD and a 6MT is the 5 series, so right there you have a better comparison based on similar traits. You can put the TL in the entry sedan group because of the platform and performance lackings of the TSX but that doesn't mean you can't also put it into a comparison with other large mid sized sedans as well. Acura does have the RL but it is as good as done, has no lower end trim like the competition and it also lacks the performance status of that group and is exactly why the TL holds a middle position in the Acura lineup.

I take it no publication has the balls to do so because it would show a $15k-$20k cheaper (although more basic) TL SH blowing the doors off those other cars and owning the performance category in that group, amongst other things that magazines comparos always fail to mention.

PetesTL

Yeah but you guys weren't seriously going to get the S4, were you? I mean any dude can go to a BMW dealer and test drive a M3 or a 750Li but that doesn't mean he's going to walk out the door with one. The vast majority of 4G owners picked their cars because price is a factor.


Also, if you're going to include compact cars in these comparison tests, why not open up the whole field and include cars like the WRX Sti, Lancer EVO MR, and Mustang GT? ....some of these cars cost over $30K+ easy when fully loaded.

George Knighton

The steering is very quick, very light and logically progressive in a way that most cars cannot match.

However, if you're acquainted with something like Porsche precision or BMW feel, you will be able to find fault with Acura EPS.

On the other hand, if you've been buying Hondas and Acuras for decades, as I have, you will remember when driving an Accord could be compared to maneuvering a power boat...it felt like it was connected with ropes.

So, IMHO, it is just a matter of perspective, and until very recently not many motor magazine editors and writers were very much on the big Honda bandwagon.

You'll notice that one of the drivers in the R&T test did speak up and say that the TL was his favourite, and that surprised me.

George Knighton

I think that our friend who cross shopped with the ES350 is more like the typical shopper.

TechnoCat

Because...

• That's who Acura compares the TL to in their comparisons
• The TL doesn't cost BMW 5-Series type money.
• Most of those other cars aren't aimed at "sports" in the same way - how many Mercedes, Lincolns, Saabs and Volvos do you see with manual transmissions? (Can't get Lexi that way here.)
• The TL doesn't even compare favorably to the Audi A4 series in luxury appointments or finishing touches; it really doesn't belong in the same category as half that group.

There just aren't very many direct competitors to the TL, meaning combining the upscale features, high performance, real rear seating, four doors and polarizing looks at such an aggressively low price (and corresponding loss of finishing touches.) That's both a good thing (no direct competition) and a bad thing (any comparison will make the TL look off in some way.)

TechnoCat

I shopped the same set. Mostly the same results, except...

• A4 - I wanted more power but also am allergic to four-bangers
• S4 - Yeah, that's too expensive. And my previous S4 (I had three Audis prior to my TL) was too harsh.
• 335xi - They simply weren't available with a stickshift when I needed a new car. Nearest one was on a dock three states away.

BTW, to the poster who pointed out that the TL is $17K less than the S4... for $10K below the TL (SH-AWD), you can have a Mitsubishi Evolution X.

legend74

And you can really tell the difference in price between the Evo and the TL. Not as much of a difference as the TL and A4

Monte TLS,MAX

I agree, I think that the Maxima SV is the best competitor to the TL. The ES350 is more of a bore mobile if you get me adn nothing sporty about it. Both the Max and TL are sorta odd balls and have been for a long long time, they really don't have any direct competitors.

JM2010 SH-AWD

It was interesting that most of the numerical deficits assessed against the TL were in the "subjective" category. Also interesting that the lap times did not seem to be taken into consideration at all in assessing points. Doesn't that capture the full essence of what a sport sedan should be - getting down the road quickly?

docboy

+1

The TL's steering is not bad. Very precise and laser sharp, though it's almost neutral in feel. Not much feedback, though IMHO when the TL is driven at higher speeds, the steering feels pretty good.

BMW's steering is the gold standard IMHO. Super responsive at all speeds, BMW makes the front wheels almost an extension of your arm. "Think, and it steers almost immediately."

I've yet to drive a Porsche. Someday I would like a 911. Someday

winstrolvtec

Yeah that's true but I think he was refering to them being best equally equipped or similarly equipped. In that case, the Evo is slightly more than a TL SH Tech or 6MT and you definately can't get any Evo MR touring for less than what the TL SH's actual going rate is. Same thing goes for the S4, similarly equipped it carries at least a premuim of $12k-$13k, just in sticker.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

We're reopening this thread, we realize you had a good discussion going amongst yourselves, and adding the Car Talk participants did not add to it.

thanks!

George Knighton

But... but.... you were all having such a good time killing me in the Car Talk thread!

:-)

astro

George, you can feel free to duke it out in both forums

Pete2010

George, you were surely kicking butt over there! Nice work. It's a rough area, but I give them credit, many of those guys over there have good knowledge about the other manufactures cars due to ownership, etc, and they're not your standard fan boys.

It's a great place to go if you have questions or thoughts about other cars... but in no way will you find the Acura Fanboys there. They (we) tend to stay in our respective areas

NJ SHAWD

Well done George.

NJ SHAWD

For me:
It was a matter of practicality meets performance. I have to entertain customers on a regular basis, so I needed more room than can be found in the S4, the 335 or the G. I also drive 40,000 miles per year so I need a car that won't fall apart or kill me maintaining it. It doesn't make sense to blow $50k on an M, 5 or A6 series for the bigger size, with the kind of mileage I drive, so the best answer was the TL. It may not be the prettiest of the bunch, but it does stand out.

Embrace the ugliness!

So for me 4G>S4>G37>335xi

fsttyms1

Now if only Honda would offer a bigger engine in the TL. For me it needs more power with all its mass and a 6 speed auto.

Pete2010

I'm still dreaming they come out with the updated NSX... sex on wheels with a v10.... As George has/will say... Someday!

NJ SHAWD

I'd be happy with an extra 30hp at the wheels...and an RJ straight bar grill.

Pete2010

I believe that with an Intake, J-Pipe, HFC, Cat Back exhaust you can definitely get that amount of HP at the wheels. Who knows though until we get some people on the dyno.

fsttyms1

Still not enough. Honda needs a V8 or some form of FI for the SH-AWD models. Both HP and TQ need to be in the mid 300s

BoostLover

x2. And can we please lose some weight off the car, please? 4,000 lbs is quite portly!

mindaddy

With HPT and 19" diamond cut alloys!

I crossed shopped everything - nothing comes close on value. IMHO.

In the not too distant future - all cars will have torque vectoring AWD and 500+HP. (SH-AWD or TV-AWD or just AWD) will be like airbags EBS, ESP....Standard. Software programs have optimized much - the drivetrain is next.

jasonwdp10

I think acura needs a manual shift gate and a change to the throttle response when put in "s" mode.

The only difference i feel between D and S is S holds the revs longer. It doesn't make the throttle response any snappier or quicker imo. A manual shift gate w/ +/- wouldn't hurt either.

PetesTL

....sounds good but at what cost?.....nobody is going to shell out $50K+ for a souped-up TL (esp. in this economy). Realistically, the only improvement I see in the forseeable future is a 6AT.

cp3117

I agree.

$50K+ Acura's arent selling well up here in Canada unless they have heavy incentives and that even includes the MDX which was generally immune to this theory, but may change once the economy improves.

I think if Honda did it right, they could develop a V8 that could been tuned accordingly across the brand much like many other manufactures in order to spread out the costs. This V8 could be used and tuned accordingly to work in the TL, RL, MDX, Ridgeline etc etc.

A year ago i would agree with you about the 6AT in the TL and I hope it still happens as it desperately needs it. I wouldnt be surprised though if its introduced only in the RL in order to keep some technology separate from the TL in the Acura sedan lineup.