tblood

Hey guys and gals! So, I finally got an Acura! After months and months of research on here and looking for the car I finally figured out I wanted, I found it. Kinda... I ended up getting a 2009 TL SH-AWD w/Tech Package. Crystal Black Pearl with Umber interior. I was really looking for a WDP/Umber car but settled for black because of the deal and condition of the vehicle. She had 37k on her and was very clean aside from a couple scratches on the body.


Mikayla and the 1970 Chevelle SS396 my Dad and I rebuilt. Numbers matching

I had her (Mikayla is her name ) for a couple weeks before I went down to Maryland to visit a friend. The drive down from northern Ohio was great. For a stiffened suspension the ride was wonderful and smooth. Averaged around 25-26mpg @ 75-80mph. Not too shabby. Everything was all good!

The 'Oops' occurred when we were heading to see a movie after dinner. I accelerated from a dead stop at a stop light and traveled about 15-20 yards when I started to make a left hand turn around a curve. It had been raining and the roads looked to have been recently paved. The car completely went out from under me as if I had hit a huge patch of ice. She started under-steering badly through the turn. I tried recovering, let off the gas and tapped the brakes... Nothing. Turned the wheel hard over and gave it a little gas after I touched the brakes trying to induce over-steer to get the ass end around... Nothing. She pushed straight through the turn at about 15-20mph and hit the curb on the opposite side fairly flush on the front passenger wheel. Caromed off after the back brushed the curb. The steering wheel was badly out of whack and I had to have it turned half over to get it to go straight. After looking at the passenger wheel and knowing how badly I must have affected the alignment, I did my best not to cry in front of the girl I was with and pulled into a parking space to go watch the movie.

Afterwards I limped my way back to her place despite the TCS and VSA acting up and eventually shutting off. I took it into Rosenthal Acura in Gaithersburg to have it looked at and to see if they could do anything to make it safe to get back home. The service manager I spoke with was incredibly understanding and a pleasure to deal with. They put it up on the alignment rack and realigned everything for me without much hassle. She said that I would need to replace the lower control arm and they believed the sub frame itself was bent... Son of a... There goes $1,500 plus labor!

I eventually made my way back home to Ohio and took it to a family friend of 30+ years who owns a body shop and is a great collision specialist. We put it up on the rack and looked everything over. Wow! Guys, Acura seriously over engineered many of the main components of this car. The control arm didn't look to have any signs of being bent and he said if a fully-boxed aluminum subframe built like that was bent from hitting a curb at that speed he'd sell his business.

So, after speaking with his long time alignment buddy, we're actually going to try and replace the knuckle. Hopefully it works since I still have about 2.5 degrees of negative camber and it doesn't handle nearly as well as it should.

Long story (sorry so long-winded) short... I still need to replace TWO 18inch smoked SHAWD wheels. I haven't had any luck finding any online or in the Black Market. I really don't care to pay full price to purchase them from Acura. Does anyone have a set of stockers they would be willing to part with?! Also, anyone have a similar experience with front end collisions? What parts have you had to replace?


One messed up wheel.

potmilkz

you should be fine.. but dude.. look at your tires.. they virtually have no thread on it.. no wonder you slipped on the ice at those speeds.

FoxTL

I would've just went straight home and forget the movie lol. But I hope it'll be alright...

Kenstlshawd

iTrader: (2)

You could look for a rim repair place around where you live. The damage is repairable and get new tires.

jspagna1

^^^ Agreed. You should be able to get them repaired. Make sure they can match your existing wheels so they all match. Otherwise there's wheels available on E-Bay. You just need to make sure you get the ones that match your car. I think the 2011 TL's came with those rims but they were smoked or like a gunmetal finish. I know the ones on my 2010 were the shinier/aluminum finish rather than the smoke finish.

Oh by the way, the Chevelle is sweet. Thank GOD it wasn't the Chevelle.

AnyaBoo

I was going to say the same thing.

tblood

I agree 100%. I knew I was going to need new tires but I was hoping I could get through winter with this set... Not likely to happen now!

Thanks!!! I would have normally done the same thing but I drove down there to see the girl. Plus she's damn good looking!

I actually checked around and the abrasions on the wheel are far too deep to refinish. For the cost to get them done I'd be close to getting a new wheel.

I thought the wheels off eBay were a little suspect and not quite up to manufacturer standards? I haven't come across any used ones on there yet, but I haven't looked in a couple days. I'll make sure to grab the correct finish too, thanks! And yes, thank god it wasn't the Chevelle. I would have had a heart attack! And then broke down crying lol.

Yeah, the tires were definitely the biggest contributing factor to losing control. I also MAY have possibly accelerated a little briskly, but nowhere near fast enough to be the reason I lost her!


Still hoping I can run across a couple 18inchers to replace the two damaged ones. If I can't I may look at buying a new set of wheels and using these as a winter set up. What do you guys think of the 19inch HPT wheels? Look alright on CBP?

Thanks!
TC

potmilkz

dont get it repaired, get a new one.. paint wont match, and your rim may or may not balance right now.

tblood

There's not much point to do anything but get a new one. Like you said, getting a repaired wheel to match up properly would be an absolute pain. Not to mention the cost involved.

I'm still hoping the knuckle is the only culprit with the steering and alignment issue...

potmilkz

just have the shop do a tear down on the damaged area and you will see.. no point of eyeballing or guessing.

Treblig

Wow, impact even to the brake rotor? May also want to have that looked at.

AnyaBoo

In the future, I would replace all four tires when the thread wears down to the metal bar. Don't drive on them until they are bald. Make sure to get some all weather siphoned tires...they will provide better traction and handling. They wear quicker than standard tires but the extra ride comfort and control are worth it to me.

PaulAWD

The knuckle is tougher the the control arm. Usually the control will bend before the knuckle. I would get both and return one if it isn't needed. A repaired and refinished rim is about $175.00 in California. They can repair that damage as long as the rim isn't bent. Good luck and congrats on the new car. Sorry this had to happen to you.

ceb

Can you try that in English?

There is no "metal bar" in the tires - there are rubber wear bars molded into all tires. As the tires wear, you see the bars - but that is way late.

The most recent school of thought is that tires should be replaced at 4/32nds instead of the older 2/32nds.

There is no such thing as a "weather siphoned" tire. What are you trying to say?

Edward'TLS

Please ditch the crappy OEM all-season tires and instead get some decent high-performance tires best suited for the weather.

Remember this.

No matter how good it is the OEM suspension tuning and how advance it is the SH-AWD system, it all comes down to the four small patches of tire rubber that come in contact with the roads.

potmilkz

lesson learned.. you dont wait on tires.. the long you wait, the more chances shit like this happens.. and this story is a proven fact.

i suspect that it would have a different outcome if you had tires with better thread or better brand tires.

ceb

There is actually nothing wrong with the OE tires for the majority of owners. These tires are actually a pretty decent happy medium between tread life, comfort and gran touring handling. They are not intended for the agressive driver but the outcome would have been far different had they not been bald. The $1500 you'll be spending on repairs could have bought you tires and a nice Christmas present for me.

I'm always amazed at the "I'll just drive these through the winter" when that is the time that you need good tread the most.

potmilkz

^^ditto, never wait..

the first thing that caught my eye on the picture that the OP posted is the thread on the tires.. i mean come on.. they are tires.. that is the only thing keeping your car in contact with the ground.

compewterbleu

Lack of thread can leave you dead...especially in bad weather. 1st new tires, 2nd rim repair. At least you are safe, main thing.

tblood

Fortunately there wasn't any damage to the rotor. If you were refering to the caliper, the peeling paint was already there. I purchased the vehicle that way and assume it's just poor application of the caliper paint.

From what I saw and was told, the lower controls arms on this car are pretty beefy. Much more so than the average control arm. I may be wrong, but the knuckle looks to be one of the few parts on the front end that is shared with the Accord. It isn't quite up to the same sturdy build quality the rest of the front end has. Past experience and my alignment guy tell me that this is a notorious weak link for that car and are a frequent problem in front end collisions... and curbs... lol.

I agree that the outcome may have been different had the tires had more tread on them. But, considering the way the car behaved, not much short of spiked tires would have made a substantial difference. A newly paved road seeing rain for the first couple times can be worse than ice if the water sits on the surface.

There isn't much of a lesson to be learned here either. My drive to work is a little over two miles and I make it once or twice a week(I travel 4-6 days a week). The picture makes them appear worse than they are. Bald tires are bald tires, they shouldn't be on the road. I have a four wheel drive truck I can drive should the weather get really nasty, but we aren't anywhere near that point since it's 65 degrees up here in December!!! Gotta love it! Also, I was looking at getting new wheels in the spring. I was looking forward to getting a set of 19's and putting a more performance oriented tire on them and using the stockers for winter tires the following winter. I usually plan pretty well and avoid accidents like this as a result. But... accidents are accidents, can't plan or avoid them all!

Like compewterbleu said, at least the girl I was with and myself are safe!

Soooooooo..... Anyone selling off their stock 18's?

TC

AnyaBoo

At least the tires I have owned had a wear bar. It is a bar underneath the rubber that when the thread wears to that point, it is time for replacement.

AnyaBoo

I am surprised you have never heard of a siphoned tire. All new TLs come with OEM siphoned tires.

ceb

At that point the carcass of the tire is already exposed.

A wear bar is merely a raised bit of rubber in the groove of the tire. It is always there but really only becomes easily visible when the tread of the tire has worn down to be even with that wear bar. If you saw metal then you had a seriously damaged tire. Any exposed metal on a tire means that the structural integrity of the tire is damaged and the tire can no longer hold air reliably. If you are down to the wear bar then the tire is no longer safe to drive on.

ceb

Please show me anything that speaks to siphoned tires.

Perhaps you are referring to 'sipes' - a process (developed by a fellow named Sipe) to cut grooves into the tread of a tire to increase the ability of a tire to evacuate water and - in general - to increase traction. The small "cuts" in the tire blocks are called sipes. Virtually any road legal tire will have some form of sipes.

Siphoning is a methodology to remove fluids using a vacuum or suction - generally used to move fluids from one container to another without using a pump.

AnyaBoo

The carcass of the tire is not exposed when the thread hits the wear bar. Only one top layer hits the the wear bar in the middle of the tire. There is still some depth at this point but not very much which is why it is the point requiring replacement. I inspected my tires with the dealer when the middle top row hit the wear bar. These are my observations. The wear bar is positioned at the same thread height measured by mechanics via there measuring tool. The wear bar provides a visual vs a measurement.

AnyaBoo

Yes that is what I mean. I apologize for the misspelling. I spelled as I heard it from a mechanic. You can get the sipes machined into regular tires but many tires come precut now like the OEM Acura TL tires.

AnyaBoo

I should add that the Nissan dealership I went to did not have tires with sipes. Only regular tires. I had to elsewhere to get the tires I wanted for the Altima before I traded it in.

Edward'TLS

I too agree that the crappy OEM tires are good enough for the majority of owners under normal situations.

However, there are also extraordinary situations in which the extra traction/performance, available only on aftermarket high-performance tires, will make a big difference in the final outcome. For example, when a kid suddenly running out across the street right in front of your car on a rainy day, or a senior driver forgetting to shoulder-check and pulling right in front of your car at highway speed.

Extraordinary situations require extraordinary measures, and it is this extra tire-traction/performance on top of the even full-treaded OEM tires, that may make or break your day when your luck runs out.

AnyaBoo

I agree that the most important thing is you and she are safe. But realize you weren't driving 2 minutes to work, you drove those tires from Ohio to Maryland. If it were a really hot day, you could have had a blow out on the road. As discussed, the sipes pull water away from the tires for better traction. I am certain you would have had much better control of the car as it wouldn't have initially slipped, if your thread and sipes weren't completely gone. You should never take a long road trip on bald tires.

ceb

If you see metal then the carcass is exposed. The tread wear bars are generally at 2/32nds tread depth - the legal minimum in most states - but - at that point (like the OP found out) the tires have lost their ability to evacuate water and no electronic or mechanical gizmos can fix hydroplaning.

The most recent rulemaking is considering changing the minimum tread depth to 4/32nds - Germany's regs already have the minimum set between 4 and 5/32nds.

The moral of the story is that you need to make sure that your tires have sufficient tread depth to properly evacuate water.

AnyaBoo

I completely agree. When the mechanic and I inspected the tires, I was shocked to find out it was time for a replacement because the tires weren't bald and there was no metal showing but he pointed to the wear bar and said they were done. Not all tires were at the wear bar yet but pretty close as I am adamant tire rotater. I immediately left the dealership after service to get 4 brand new tires.

You should always replace all four when it is time for a replacement.

ceb

Manufacturers are faced with a multitude of compromises when they outfit a car. Tires are especially vulnerable.

Unless they are for an actual high performance enthusiast vehicle, manufacturers are unwilling to consider a high performance tire because some idiot will crash the car in the snow and blame the manufacturer. The customer will complain of a harsh ride and poor tread life.

If a manufacturer puts on a general purpose tire, then customers will complain of poor handling.

Accordingly, most manufacturers building a car like the TL will fit a higher performance grand touring tire that is a good mix of performance, good tread wear, all-season performance (depending on your climate) and decent ride comfort. These tires are perfectly fine for every owner in the US that obeys traffic laws (including the law that says that you must adjust your speed downward to account for road, traffic and weather conditions.)

The OP broke two cardinal laws of driving - he had bald tires and was going too fast for the road conditions. It was an avoidable accident unless that stretch of road was littered with other cars that had done the same thing. He chose to spend his $1500 on repairs after the fact instead of spending $1000 on new tires beforehand.

You cannot blame the manufacturer's choice of a tire for this accident - nor could you blame the tire for hitting a kid that darts out in the rain. It is ALWAYS the responsibility of the driver to adjust their speed and following distance to road, traffic, weather and environmental conditions.

Mr Marco

Been there, done that (at age 16).
^This. People tend to forget tires wear out, or get fucked by a mis-aligned front end. If you are only going to do one thing for the car monthly, regular tire mantainance should be that thing.

Edward'TLS

It is well known that the OEM tires are regular all-season tires which are not capable of delivering exception traction and extreme maneuvers, but aftermarket high-performance tires can.

Human being is human being. Everyone makes mistakes. No matter how good you are, no one is immune to mistakes and mis-judgements.

Let's say the OP had full-treaded tires, but made a mistake by traveling too fast under not-so-perfect road condition, or a kiddy darts out in front of your car in the rain, or the driver unknowingly runs over an ice patch during the winter time.

Under these situations, the crappy OEM tires will NOT cover your ass, but the extra traction/performance offered by high-performance tires MAY.

It is this extra insurance given by high-perf. tires that can forgive the driver's minor mistakes and mis-judgements.

Apart from adjusting their speed and following distance to road, traffic, weather and environmental conditions, smart drivers will also upgrade their tires to handle unexpected and extraordinary situations that may tax the tires' ability to the limits.

Remember the Michelin tagline : "Because there's so much riding on your tires."

ceb

There is an offramp from a freeway near my house. It is marked for 25mph. With my Conti DW tires, I generally exit around 40 without much ado. The stock Michelins will do that at about the same speed and my Conti WinterExtremes will do that (dry) at somewhere between 35 and 40.

You should take a driving course to learn how to recognize your limits and your car's limits and stay below that. You'll also learn how handling changes as tires wear.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the OE furnished tires.

mY sLOW UA6

That's too bad cause those wheels are sweet

tblood

I really like the design. It fits the car. I wish they came in a 19in option! The stock size feels a little small for the size of body.

And guys, like I said before, I'm not ignorant when it comes to cars or maintaining them. I still stand by my statement that even if I had brand new tires the outcome likely would have been the same. I have been in a car that hydroplaned... this was not hydroplaning. Especially at 15-20mph after accelerating from a stoplight. It was in October, not January. Weather was going to be 55-70 degrees while I was there and dry(damn weatherman!). The tread on the tires was sufficient for the trip I was making. A little shower passes over for a short minute and dampens a brand new road. I'd take ice over whatever seeped out of the surface! There was no $1,500 repair vs. $1,000 tires choice... Hindsight and all that. But, even that probably wouldn't have made a difference.

I do like the discussion on tires! Only thing I may add is that manufacturers choose tires to be a good mix of a number of different attributes. "Extreme" or "high-performance" tires sacrifice something to some extent to gain in another. Yes, cost of the tire is a big consideration for the manufacturer as well, but to call these tires crappy is nowhere near accurate or fair.

All of that aside... SHAWD 18inch wheels... I know someone out there has a set laying in their basement, garage, or loft that's tempted to part with them!

Edward'TLS

Oh yes, there's nothing wrong with the OEM tires. It's just that the OEM tires have lower limits than aftermarket high-perf. tires, and thus will NOT be as forgiving in extreme maneuver situations in which high-perf. tires will.

I also go through a high-speed sweeping turn daily, which has a 60 kmph sign.

For my '02 TL-S,
OEM Michelin MXM4 : 90 kmph
Pirelli P-Zero Nero M+S : 100 kmph
Goodyear Eagle F1 A/S : 100 kmph
Michelin Pilot Alpin PA3 : 105 kmph
Michelin Pilot Sport A/S : 110 kmph
Bridgestone RE010-R : 140 kmph

For my '12 AWD TL,
OEM Goodyear RS-A : 100 kmph
Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 : 120 kmph (new tires, still pushing for even higher limit)
Michelin Pilot Sport : 160 kmph (too scared to push any further)

Aftermarket high-perf. tires definitely have an edge in overall perf. and emergency avoidance maneuver over the OEM regular touring tires.

However, it seems pointless to carry on this conversation when you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that high-perf. aftermarket tires offer higher limits than the OEM touring tires.

Perhaps a visit to the TireRack website, and browse through some of it's tire tests may prove to be useful.

ceb

Horsesh!t. Making up numbers doesn't make them true and you can't really believe that there is a 70kph difference between the two different Michelins.

I've forgotten more about tire technology that everyone in this thread will ever learn combined and I know b.s. when I read it.

AnyaBoo

I strongly disagree with your statement regarding the same outcome from tires with good thread on them. I have driven on both good and bad tires and the littlest change in acceleration caused the car to slip badly. Same car with new tires and same road conditions did not cause the same effect.

Those tires are very bad and shouldn't have been driven on the way you did. I guess there will be no lessons learned in this thread.