PsychDoc

To be clear, I'm talking about the 528i and the E350 (current generation).

There's not an area of functionality or performance or reliability/build quality that I don't think the TL more than holds it's own. Notice that I haven't included the 2009+ A6. That's because I think it's a substantially superior car to the TL in several respects.

Go ahead Teutonic fan boys, flame away.

And remember to keep drinking the koolaid.

jeffpa

Dollar for dollar, none of these cars can hold a candle to the TL...including the A6...

PetesTL

Well the TL is of course, a much better value and gives you more bang for your buck. The TL is a much better car to own and to maintain over the long haul. That being said however, the middle and upper level 5 series and the E class (esp. the new one) are all-around better cars than the TL.....more luxury, features, road manners, performance, and status.......at a higher price, of course, but you get what you pay for.

In my opinion, BMW should get rid of the 528i and just keep the 535i and 550i in the line. The next gen 5 series already looks impressive and should move the whole model line up another notch. I love that BMW is constantly improving and raising the bar on their already great-driving cars, while Acura seems content on just keeping up with the status quo.


At the end of the day, the Acura is really just another Honda product, and the BMW is well, a BMW.

danimal1968

I think it is hard to look at a 2009 TL next to a 2008 TL and say that Acura was content with the status quo. You can argue about the results, but you can't say that Acura didn't take some chances with the 4G.

ssim3

The chances they took were in the wrong areas. I will not mention the main one for fear of a threat of being banned, there are some thin skins on this board when it comes to obvious topics. They should have taken a chance on rwd and a more modern drive line, hell ford has more advanced driveline direct injection, multi turbo 6 spd.

paz840

iTrader: (2)

You sir, must be on drugs...the 2010 A6 is on another level.

The latest C&D comparison rated it higher than the Jag XF, 535i, M45, MB E-Class and a couple other cars in the $50-$55K range.

jeffpa

Why is it that some people feel it necessary to begin their posts with assinine comments like "you must be on drugs"??? (I guess saying "sir" before that was supposed to make it seem nicer???) Was that really necessary to get your point across???

I'm sorry, but to get an A6 3.0 Quattro equipped the same as a TL SH-AWD Tech, you are looking at an additional $13,000+. In my book, there is nothing about the A6 that makes it worth an additional $13K...no matter what "level" you and the "experts" at C&D put it on...

agko

I don't know that one car is the solution to everyones needs. Before I bought my TL SH-AWD in April '09, I looked at the german cars. In fact my previous vehicle was an '05 BMW X5 4.4i. It was a beast. However, due to my experiences with reliability, repair costs, and that everyone else had an X5 (so much for status), I went for the Acura. I test drove the 5 and the previous generation E350. If I wanted to spend 60k again for a vehicle I wouldn't keep (or hand down to a family member) past 3 years, I would have gone with one of them. After having driven the SH-AWD, I honestly couldn't say that one car was better than the other - they were all had their +s/-s. For me, driving on the freeway at 70 mph for 30 minutes each direction on a daily basis - superior handling did not come into play, and the 'feel of the road' was actually a bad thing. I didn't want a cushy ride like the Lexus, but I certainly didn't want to feel every bump. Apples & Oranges. Acura TL SH-AWD = Value Buy.

jzacuto

Aesthetically and socially, all of these cars target the consumer from completely different angles. I'm sure that BMW, Lexus, Audi and Acura have TOTALLY different buyer profiles for the 5-series, E350, A6, and TL. And for Acura, even within their own model segment, the profile for someone who'd buy a base TL is likely far different than the person who'd buy a base TL-SHAWD. (And different for the tech packages, naturally.)

That being said, from a social perspective, I've always felt (and feel free to disagree) that people who buy BMWs more often than not buy them to impress those around them, not because they need or crave a fine European performance vehicle. For both those who buy a BMW and Lexus, I think they fall into the status symbol trap.

"Ooooo! He/she has a BMW (or a Lexus)! He/she must be doing something right!"

And let's not even go there with Mercedes-Benz.

Audi and Acura, on the other hand, seem to be a little different. Their designs tend to be a little more unique (edgier?) than competitors. Plus Audi clearly builds cars for performance enthusiasts as now does Acura. (i.e. TL-SHAWD)

Mind you I'm not saying one is better than the other though. As a matter of fact, I'd dump my TL-SHAWD for an Audi S5 in a minute, but I really don't want to shell out the extra cash for a car that's -- for me -- of questionable value considering my place in life right now.

For me, the TL-SHAWD offered more features, comparable luxury, great performance, pleasing aesthetics at a price which was (to me) unbeatable for that class of car.

In the end, I don't really know if it can be said that one car is better than the other because that really, honestly depends on the owner or buyer.

Afterall, one man's junk is another man's treasure!

jjsC5

I think there is an awful lot of truth in what you say. But there are also folks, and I'm one of them, who are extremely picky about cars and there may be some details of each car that may be either a minor issue, or not an issue at all, about some of those cars but not others.

The BMW's offer a lot in the way of rear drive sport sedan performance. I don't think we can discount that they have the best reputation for handling. And if you can swing the price, the 535 will win the drag race competition. But one of my hangups is that I've become spoiled by ventilated seats (a REALLY nice thing in Houston).

Even if you spring for a $70,000 BMW 550, you can't get ventilated seats. No, you can't get them in a TL either, but for $36,000 dollars I might be able to forgive Acura.

The Lexus GS350 can be equiped with all the good stuff for $52,000 - Levinson stereo, good Navigation (in '10) and my prized ventilated seats. And lets be honest, when you sit in a Lexus GS you really feel like you've gotten you moneys worth. The interior is fabulous. Performance is competitve with a slight bent towards luxury.

The Audi is a heck of a nice car, but spotty dealer network and questionable resale value. Oh - and where the hell are my ventilated seats even if I agree to spring for the $58,000 A6?

On the other hand, the Audi A5 I could just about buy on looks alone. Short of an Aston Martin, I think it may be the best looking car made today. Might be able to skip the ventilated seats for the pure drop dead good looks of this car.

Mercedes? Great car if luxury is more you game. Can get my ventilated seats, but I'm just not into this car (although if I could swing $65,000, a E550 coupe would be damn tempting!).

Which brings us to the Acura TL. I'm going to try to avoid any issues that came up in the "other thread" where I pissed some folks off! I think the TL functionally is a tremendous car with the nicest interior you can get for under $50k (let alone under $40k). Awesome stereo, Nav and good all around performance. I'd prefer RWD, but give them credit for at least offer AWD as an alternate. If it had ventilated seats I'd close the book on my decision of what to buy in 6 months (my lease is up then on my CTS). But without ventilated seats, and the fact that the minimum I'd have to do to make the TL acceptable to me is replace the wheels (I'd buy the FWD version) and paint the beak - it becomes a more conflicted decision.

BEAR-AvHistory

Know how you feel, we have 3 BMW's & 1 TL in the family but if I want to have an air conditioned butt in the Carolina summer I need to take the Ford.

No excuse for these cars not having a feature that a truck offers.

PetesTL

What is it with you guys and your sweaty butts!!

Hacura

You guys are not serious about the A6 are you? This is dumbfounding. It looks like a 10 year old model with a new front end and rear tails. When I mean front end I'm talking about after the hood.

It might have a nicer interior but that shit shouldn't even be mentioned in the same thread as the new TL. JMHO on looks alone.

PsychDoc

I agree 100%. I owned a car with ventilated sates (the ES350) and you know what? They were worthless. The car's A/C could cool the car down within five minutes after getting in rendering the seat ventilation absolutely worthless.

AFAIC people are making something out of nothing with this issue. Add this to the list of stupid features car manufacturers have come up with over the years. Right next to rain sensing wipers (I think I can pretty well figure out when I need to turn the wipers on, thatk you very much).

dwest1023

For me, intead of trying to buy a car that does everything, I just bought 3 and leased one. That way I can have it all! short of a porsche nothing touches my modified 06 miata. It does not need brakes, it just does what you tell it. MY 09 TL has all the gadgets I could ever use. My Nissan Frontier, hauls if I need. The 09 maxima, instant on acceleration and has good looks. No one bmw or any other car can do all that,and probably spent less then some upper high end bmw, lexus, or MD

jjsC5

First of all, I agree that Lexus and Infiniti's ventilated seats are the worst (but still better than nothing).

Second of all, you live in New York. Spend a summer in Houston in a car with good ventilated seats and you'll understand.

BEAR-AvHistory

They are not ventilated they are cooled by air forced in from the main A/C system. As for it being worthless I can easily tell the difference in comfort between my trucks seats & my "luxury car" seats, so can everbody else in the family.

Regardless of how fast the car cools down the TL seats will still stick to you in the summer when you are wearing shorts.

If I am going to be making a number of stops the truck, which also has A/C output vents in the headliner, defiantly gets the nod when its hot.

BTW rain sensing wipers work very well in on again off again drizzle or light rain. Y'all seem to have an issue with anything your luxary car does not have

Aman

Different strokes for different folks...

The 5 is for the person that seeks status combined with luxury and sport equally(especially in 6-speed form)

the E is for someone who is more concerned with status and luxury than sport.

Audi is for someone who enjoys sport and luxury, but isn't really concerned with status. They prefer to be subtle. The S5 is a jaw-dropping car, but it isn't as flashy as the new E IMO

The TL is for someone who enjoys luxury and performanceto compete with these cars, but with the added benefit of Honda reliability and affordability. TL owners don't really care about status.

MIKEYDRED

Doc I hear you Acura only goes for the sensible luxury and people look at it as a weakness like power adjustable peddles what is the poinht of those. The previous generation MDX had rain sensing wipers but Acura realized they were useless and axed them, Acura focus is on driver friendly technology. Curious to see how the ZDX new "Advance ventilated seats will work though, something to do with heat sensors and humidty control.

JD23

I have to agree with you here. I honestly have never felt the need for ventilated seats or automatic wipers.

Aman

When you really get down to it, nobody really needs any of the stuff on new cars nowadays. I mean, you don't NEED a radio. you don't NEED HVAC. but it's there because people like to have things done for them. Hence the introduction of automatic wipers, memory seats, auto-headlights, etc. You can even go as far back and say the same about the automatic transmission, although that's admittedly quite the stretch.

But my point is, these are the things that make a luxury car better than Joe Schmoe's Corolla.

Costco

whoa, whoa, whoa whoa whoa...... slow down there buddy. My car is probably one of the most bare-bones daily drivers here on the board. I don't have traction control, stability control, ventilated seats, nav, etc. but I definitely need my HVAC and radio. A/C is definitely needed when it goes up in the mid 80's and up. And your heater is absolutely necessary if you live anywhere where it goes under 70 F.

One thing's for sure though, I sure as hell would like ventilated seats. In the summer it becomes really uncomfortable even with the A/C on at full blast. I feel for the people in the humid climates.

winstrolvtec

There are many items that are a simply a staple of luxury at this point and others that are just a somewhat useless stretch in the imagination. Many of these excessives are included in one form or another. I guarantee if they were individual purchase options not many would check that box. Not in particular, but just for another example, adaptive cruise control, as if I use it in the first place and like I trust it anyway.

A sensible approach is not paying for what you don't absolutely need and I like that the TL has all the basic luxury needs and more included. Are there a few things that we would like to see added that are not even an option, sure but not as many as one might think and for the Acura buyer the more important thing is the initial value and savings over most competitiors cost.

BEAR-AvHistory

If this was true they would have been better off buying a Honda Accord EX instead of trying so hard to justify & get reaffirmation for their purchase of the TL.

When people are taking about luxury brands Acura is usually an after thought & not generally included in the topic.

JD23

My car probably has nearly the same number of options as yours does. I also don't have things like stability control, climate control, nav, memory seats etc., and it doesn't bother me that much. When I drive one of my family's TLs and move back to my car, I don't miss the luxury options. A radio and HVAC is definitely more critical than all of the luxury gadgets, as I couldn't imagine driving when it is 10 degrees outside without heat or 90 degrees without AC.

I am happy as long as my car is enjoyable to drive, is reliable and looks good. Some of the luxury options are nice, but I just don't see the benefit in things like auto-headlights and auto-windshield wipers.

JD23

If this is the case, then you have to agree that no one buys Acuras as status symbols. You can't have it both ways; right now you're arguing that the simpletons on this board buy Acuras as status symbols, though the consensus agrees that Acura is not a luxury brand.

I happen to agree that Acura is not a true luxury brand like BMW or MB. Acura provides a slightly more luxurious upgrade path for current Honda owners and others who want a fairly nice, reliable car without spending a premium. What is so wrong with that?

BEAR-AvHistory

I am 6 feet my wife is 5'2"which might suggest to some people that we have different leg lengths & our reach from the seat cushion to the pedals might be a shade different.

When I hit my key fob to unlock the door the seat moves back by itself to make room for an easier entrance. When I put the key in the ignition the seat moves up, the pedals adjust, the mirrors set & all the other stuff that happens in the TL also takes place. Nice stuff to have even though its only a truck & not a luxury car.

When I shut down the seat slides back to make getting out easier.

Necessary no, but luxury touches are never necessary, that's what makes them luxuries.

BEAR-AvHistory

Nothing wrong with that at all, agree 100%. I am very happy with my TL. I bought it instead of the Accord because it looked much nicer & I was willing to pay extra for it.

jzacuto

Oh, what'd I'd give for ventilated seats in my TL! *wipes away tear!*

Seriously! I can get them on the RL and not the TL? WTF??!

It'll probably be standard in 2011!

jzacuto

IAWTC!!!!

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

Ecactly

Why is the OP continuing trying to justify with the "oh I got a comment today threads (realized or made up) and now this?

Acura themselves does not pitch the TL as a competitor to the cars he has listed. The RL is for that!

A loaded TL ends where a 5 series or A6 starts! C&D had a comparison in September and the A6 won!!

ssim3

OP has posted this silly premise on other boards and gets laughed off, so he has to come get affirmation from fellow koolaid drinkers. TL is a great version of a mid priced fwd family car, but cannot compare to a car that is designed from the ground up to be a rwd sedan.

bagbklyn

Actually not that im jumping on the band wagon but he's not making up the comparison when Acura itself says it is in the TL press release that:

Available with the largest and most powerful engine in TL history, along with the sport-driving focused SH-AWD® system (the world's first torque-vectoring AWD system when introduced in 2000), the new TL arrives ready to compete with vehicles like the Audi A4 and A6, BMW 3-Series and 5-Series, Infiniti G35 and M35, Lexus ES, GS and IS sedans, and the Mercedes-Benz C-Class and E-Class.

You can go here for the full article http://www.hondanews.com/search/rele...?q=g35&s=acura

Just stating the facts.

jjsC5

I'm glad you told us what the RL is for. Apparently nobody seems to know. The dealer near me does not even have one in stock as best as I saw walking their lot recently.

The biggest competitor to the RL is the TL. And other than my "prized" ventilated seats, there isn't any difference to speak of other than about $7,000 (comparing the AWD TL).

SpicyMikey

First off, this is not a flame job, but you may be getting carried away a bit. I've owned both cars and recently test drove the new 2010 535i. Overall, I agree the TL is a much better value, plus the tech in that car is far superior. However, I think it's a stretch to say it wins in performance category. I know you said 528 not 535, but the handling is far better in the 5 series generally. The power delivery is silky smooth all the way through the gears with either engine setup. On the other hand, the acura transmission takes, what feels like, an eternity to up shift when the pedal is floored and there are noticable dead spots in the power band.

Don't get me wrong. I agree The TL is best in it's class with all things considered, but lets be realistic about how it stacks up in the powertrain category.

JD23

I believe the RL mitigates some of the issues with interior materials that were mentioned in another thread. If I remember correctly, the RL has real wood trim and some other higher end interior materials. I remember comparing the interiors of the 05 RL and TL and being impressed with that of the RL.

winstrolvtec

Depends on what level of performance you are talking about. For the pure "feel" of a true sports car than no but it is not all that much down on performance when compared to the 535. I actually think the TL SH outhandles anything BMW with exception to an M and braking tests don't have it as worse. Not bad considering they don't yet offer a 6AT and it is engineered to feel or drive a little more like a luxury car and not so agressive in comparison, and finally it is really only intended to compete with the base model premium mid size cars, which makes up most of the market anyway, and does a excellent job at it nonetheless.

As far as the luxury comparison for Acura over Honda, there is none. This is not Audi to suggest someone buys Acura over Honda for status. The VW CC has nearly all the premium options of the A4 and A5 and many from the A6 made available to it. So in that sense there really is not much reason to buy the A4 except for the status. Honda has always down a good job of even limiting themselves in what they offer to make sure Acura has a much higher level of premium offerings.

jzacuto

But the CC -- a gorgeous car that I actually considered before a new TL -- doesn't have a sliding moon roof because of the 4-door coupe design.

I mean, I know this is a small thing, but it was a TOTAL deal killer.

Well, that and the nickel-and-dime pricing for features. But seriously... no opening moonroof? I want to feel the wind in my (non existent) hair!

jjsC5

I agree the RL is slightly better in that regard, but functionally the car is a TL. I would pay a couple thousand more for the RL because of the seats, and it's far better looking car. But for $50k, it does not even show up on my list of cars I'd consider.

sumo718

for 50 g i would get a 2007 zo6