Edward'TLS

This question always lingers on my mind for the past recent years.

If Honda/Acura is so concentrated about MPG, why is there still no GAS-SIPPING hybrid nor diesel vehicle for the Acura brand, when other luxury auto makers are all rushing their fuel-saving hybrids and diesel vehicles to the market ?

I bet a hybrid 6AT MMC TL, if available, will sure save a whole lot more than the current 3mpg over the pre-MMC TL's.

draph

Drive both, especially with the MT, and you will see the extra 25 hp is all above 5500 rpm. The TL SH-AWD 6MT is just as quick as the G37 6MT to 60, and the flatter torque curve of the Acura makes it more tractable in the 1st four gears around town than the peaky VQ engine.

I thought I was going to buy a G37 S 6MT last year, and wound up with the TL because it simply felt quicker at lower revs. Since you have to rev the snot out of the G37 to have any fun, gas mileage suffers. Read the boards - a lot more disappointed enthusiasts on the G37 discussion boards than here.

Edward'TLS

I too agree that the TL is already a quick and good handling sedan. Otherwise, I won't be waiting in line to order the "alabaster silver" color MMC TL.

But wouldn't another additional 25+hp makes the TL even more fun to drive, thereby not just merely as quick, but virtually blows away the G37 with ease, as well as placing the TL at the top of it's class in terms of output hp.

Those buyers, who place gas mileage as top priority, can still go for the 280hp FWD TL, whereas performance-minded buyers can opt for the hypothetical "330+hp" SH-AWD TL.

The gas-mileage-conscience buyers should never be considering the SH-AWD in the first place, because AWD vehicles and good fuel economy never mix together. A even better choice for them would be the smaller and lighter, gas-sipping 4-cylinder TSX.

As a result, I don't think any performance-minded SH-AWD buyers would object having another 25+hp in their TL to trade for a few mpg drop in fuel economy, or to trade for the same mpg level as achieved by the pre-MMC 5AT TL.

wakattack

The TL will be continue to be hobbled by the fact that it is a luxo Accord. I think RWD is totally out of the question, it would be too expensive to retool the Accord for this. The market has gotten really tough with the economy. I suspect a lot less emphasis on performance and more on fuel economy and electronics. These are places that Acura can easily take the Accord platform and improve on.

I think a hybrid is a possibility. It would be easy off the shelf technology from the Accord to use.

The TL name has been a rough go for the 4G. I would not be surprised if they make a clean break, and start renaming their platforms.

I could see the RL going away. What are the sales numbers on those? They must be terrible.

I suspect you will see a price drop, or a more modest entry level TL with a lower price point.

I would like to see the coupe return.

Edward'TLS

In fact, many years back, Honda had worked very hard to try to differentiate or separate the Acura products from the Honda products, because at that period, auto buyers viewed the Acura vehicle as just another Honda.

That's when the 4G TL Power Plenum came in. Honda had differentiated the 4G TL from the Honda sedans alright. The distinctive styling went to such an extreme that many potential buyers, me included, were being scared away.

I still think that RWD is the best way to distance Acura products from Honda products. Just look at how successful the Lexus brand is, even though Lexus hasn't been around as long as the Acura brand.

RWD ..... dead, V8 ..... dead, NSX-replacement ..... dead; a pity indeed.

SL1200MK4

I couldn't agree with you more. The fact that the 2012 3.7L TL still lags behind the G37 is disappointing. How difficult is it for Honda to squeeze another 30hp out of the 3.7L motor?

Aman

VERY hard in fact, considering how old the J-series is, and the fact that it's SOHC probably doesn't help.

SL1200MK4

That's sad. I forgot that the J-series is SOHC. I hope Honda can bridge the power difference soon, after all Honda is known for its motor technology.

In the mean time, if they introduce Variable Cylinder Management to the TL and deliver better mileage in real world settings, then I suppose the ~10% difference in power can be overlooked.

KeithL

As a M37S owner I agree, the 3.7 is not torquey at low RPMs it loves to REV and you have to tach up the engine to get the car to really move. Never had to spool up any of my TLs that much to get them to pull.

MD-DRIVER

- More power
- Dual Clutch Transmission
- Coupe Version

Mr Marco

Ding, Ding, Ding...Winner

acurator99

By 2014 ?????? Hmmmm
20 Gallon tank and $6 a gallon for premium = $120 for a full tank of gas.
Assuming gas is filled once every week we are looking at almost $520 in gas every month.
Hopefully Acura will make a 4 cylinder TL for 2014.

winstrolvtec

The NSX replacement is back on again and therefore I would suspect the V8 is as well. The big question is whether or not it will be RWD or a specially tuned version of SH, that is unless they decide to shut it down again.

prepreludesh

I don't really jump on these discussions much, because I feel like they're ultimately a tease...

But... I don't think we'll ever see Acura go towards a strictly RWD vehicle. They're looking at Audi and seeing that in their whole lineup, they don't have a strictly RWD vehicle and yet they're being successful. So Acura will continue to put SH-AWD in all of their vehicles. I imagine the TSX will eventually get it as well. But hell, Lexus still has FWD vehicles in their lineup (CT and ES).

Here are my predictions:

-TL will remain the sportiest athlete of Acura when the 5th Gen comes out.

-RL will remain in the lineup, Acura will put a Hybrid drivetrain in it and still load it up on features galore (this will keep the premium price understandable in buyers minds). This technology will filter its way down to the SUVs and eventually TL and TSX in 2-3 years after the RL gets it.

-Acura will keep concentrating on SUV's/Crossovers. I would expect they try concentrating on making the RDX an even bigger competitor against vehicles like BMW X3 and Lexus RX350. Right now, the RDX is too ugly for buyers.

-Acura will not bring diesels to the US for at least another 4-5 years, its still not feasible in terms of what buyers want in the US (available fuel and cheapest fuel).

-I still believe a new V-6 will come out in 2-3 years, but Acura will never go over 350hp EVER because of their current company direction of "Fuel Efficiency First."

-Acura's will continue to be based off of Honda platforms for cost efficiency.

All of my theories align directly to company mission statements, past history of product designs, the market of their potential buyers, the economy and the old reliable rumor mill. That is why I can't take the people that say Acura will go to RWD or V-8 platforms!

boe_d

Being that we have a refresh to base our response on, I'd say

1. Bring back the designers who sculpted the exterior of the previous gen TL. At least stop using the designers of the current generation TL.

2. Continue to improve the gas mileage - as someone else posted by the time the 5G comes along we'll be paying $6 per gallon. I think we could achieve about a 20% improvement in MPG without lowering the acceleration. I'm not sure why anyone needs 400HP - isn't acceleration all you really care about - are you towing a house or driving at 120 MPH on a regular basis?

3. Being that the TL is now in a similar price range as the Lexus ES 350 - shouldn't it be a tad closer to it in luxury? The interior of the TL looks tacky and cheap with the platinum accent. The exterior mirrors look like the signals were strapped on after the fact. The rear trunk looks like a squished SUV hatch.

4. I haven't driven the 2012 but I hear the 350 ES still blows the doors off the TL for road noise reduction.

5. Adaptive headlights/high beams

6. Incluse the ventilated seat in the tech package - put junk like big wheels, a nitrous booster, rice burner sound effects and a spoiler in the "enthusiast package"

7. How about throwing in some warm fuzzy extras - like free touch up paint, a coin holder and an outlet in the armrest that stays on at least 1 hour after the car is turned off?

8. Offer 1 more model so that drag enthusiasts and average users have a good choice. Make a 450HP 10MPG model and a hybrid 250HP 35/40 MPG model. BMW has a prototype hybrid getting 63MPG with 350HP and goes from 0-60 in 4.8 sec. Not sure why we couldn't split the difference a bit and get a 40MPG car that goes from 0-60 in 6 seconds or less and has about 250 HP.

9. I would love a cooled cupholder for my long drives from LA to Vegas.

10. GPS with both knob and touch input so you can use whichever you prefer.

11. Add bright LED lighting on the floor so when you turn on the overhead light you can easily look on the floor for dropped pens or whatever you may be looking for.

12. BT 3.0 - no point in having a Bluetooth 2.x connection when 3.0 is backwards compatable.


I've posted a poll a while back for people to add what features they'd like changed.

n-spring

NOOOOOOO! If they put VCM in the TL, I will NEVER own another one. I got rid of a 4 month old 2009 Accord V6 because the VCM drove me nuts! To top it off, the Accord with VCM got worse highway MPG than my 2007 TL.

Six Shifter

keep the SH-AWD
keep the MT
lose the back 2 doors

Eli

It's the 21st century and Acura is supposed to be "high-tech", where's the Internet integration? Let me program nav system destinations from http://owners.acura.com, perform a remote engine start from a cell phone, built-in Pandora instead of crusty XM.

mg7726

it needs, no particular order,

- real designers
- real dohc engine already (not another 3.9L displacement)
- better brakes and BBK for top end model
- better sports package, '12 kit is grotesque
- total LED interior lighting
- lose some weight, the thing is a P.I.G.

Edward'TLS

Audi is only successful when compared to Acura. In fact, Audi is the least successful of the luxury brands among BMW, MB, and Lexus; when the sales figure for each model is tabularized and compared across the board. Audi sales are way behind when comparing models by models with BMW and MB.

Why ? The answer is simple. Audi is in the same boat as Acura, being handicapped by the lack of a RWD chassis.

FWD is good, but there's a limit on the max amount of hp on the front wheels before the car handling goes crappy. Currently, the limit is ~290hp. Not even Honda, with it's expertize in tuning cars, is able to overcome this technological brickwall. That's why we will never see a 300hp FWD RL, nor a 305hp FWD TL, nor a 300/350hp FWD A6.

As a result, all >290hp Audi (and Acura) sport sedans have no other choice but to go AWD.

AWD has many shortcomings :

- heavy in weight.
- reduces usable engine power due to parasitic gearing loss by AWD.
- slower acceleration times in the dry (for the above reasons).
- brings up the price tag of the car.
- extra maintenance and cost.
- not fuel economy friendly (even though high-power car buyers should have no problem with it).

Thus, not many high-performance sport sedan buyers want to opt for AWD, especially those who live in the ever sunny belts with hardly any rain all year long.

In the case of BMW and MB, buyers are able to choose from almost any mix and match of engine and chassis choices, such as :

(1) lo-power (<290hp) + RWD => ($) light weight, low cost => fast car
(2) lo-power (<290hp) + AWD => ($$) slower car but weatherproof
(3) hi-power (>290hp) + RWD => ($$$) fastest car
(4) hi-power (>290hp) + AWD => ($$$$) heaviest, most expensive

But for Audi and Acura, buyers are out of luck wanting a #(3) cheaper, lighter, and FASTEST high-power 2WD sport sedan, but to look elsewhere such as BMW and MB. In the case for the TL, RL, and A6, choice #(2) is also lacking.

More choice is crucial in capturing as wide range the potential customers as possible.

Acura should instead aim for BMW, MB, and Lexus; but not stop short at the Audi's level.

SL1200MK4

Maybe I know a bit too much about computer security or the lack of rather, I will never want any of these things on my car.

This is not to say that keyless to go has bullet proof security, but I find that to be a reasonable compromise.

Hamma Tyme

In today's fuel situation it may make sense for Acura to play with the concept of turbos. Then they can reach the HP most want and keep the weight down. Maybe even a turbo diesel. Believe it or not, BMW will be releasing a 4cylinder turbo for the 528 X-Drive this fall and completely doing away with the NA 6. This is something the BMW folks thought would never happen. Plus companies will create a chip to increase the torque and HP over company specs. For example the BMW 535 has 300HP and 300lbs of torque. Now chip it and get 375hp and over 400lbs of torque which brings the car from a 5.6 0-60 to 5.0 0-60 or better depending on the Dinan chip or other companies chip.

Acura doesn't have to re-invent the wheel here being many car companies have been successful utlizing diesel and gas turbo engines. Another benefit would be increased torque in the low RPM range if used on either, combustion or diesel engines.

SL1200MK4

Excellent Analysis. Just want to add that if Acura goes RWD, the active rear differential from the SH-AWD can still be utilized. That will be a great selling point for the car.

I doubt that Acura will develop a rwd platform anytime soon though.

compewterbleu

Don't go backwards and do a 3G re-do of the interior or exterior it's played out. Slim it down, massage the hell out of the gas mileage, kick in a few ponies, add more features...heck a damn Saab has a few tricks Acura could use, and as far as exterior design lose the TSX grille, minimize the use of chrome period and add back the aggressive edge, just don't go back to the future on it, LOL.

Ruby

I think a lot of people on this board are missing something here. Acura isn't, nor has ever been about pure luxury or performance. Sure, most of their cars have luxury touches to them. Most of their cars are somewhat sporty, performance minded a little. Acura is "smart luxury" which means BUDGET luxury. Face it, they aren't trying to rival BMW, Merc etc. Its a totally different segment. Acura would rather have affordable, fuel effiecient, techy cars that are somewhat fun to drive that 350+ horsepower brutes. Why do you think they stick with front wheel drive and V6's? Because it keeps costs low.

Eli

Well I mentioned these features because I know of competitors that have them. I know that doesn't mean they're necessarily secure, but at least it's been done before.

Eli

Right and I doubt they're going to make any major changes to the powertrain, they just introduced a new engine (3.7L), new transmission, and AWD to the TL this generation. I'd expect 5G to be much of the same, except more refinement and tech gadgets. It probably takes years to do all the engineering to make major powertrain changes.

KillerG

Im sure it will be FWD too, like Eli so masterfully put it, i dont think its on their priority list right now.

I would personally like to see more of the same from Acura, lighted OEM door sills (cmon, fuckers), a HUD w/ navigation, DVD support on the navi (cmon, fuckers), full LED interior lighting

Sadly, very sadly, i also believe the next gen acuras will get LED DRLs. Why? Because all automakers feel like they need to do it, to fit in with the cool kids.

I could give two fucks about LED DRLs and i loves my HID fogs so i hope it doesnt come to that

Edward'TLS

There is nothing missing here.

Looking back to 1986, Honda launched the LUXURY car line named Acura in North America. Then, Honda wanted to shake off it's econo image, and therefore created the upmarket Acura brand in order to compete in the LUXURY auto segment which included BMW and MB. It was pure LUXURY, plain and simple, not jargon like "Tier-1 luxury" nor "Smart luxury".

However, without V8 and RWD hardware, Honda failed miserably at it's goal, whereas Lexus succeeded with flying colors.

Seeing this shortfall, Honda did intend to develop V8 engines and RWD chassis, to be used initially in the new Acura RL sedan and later other Acura models. But then this nasty global financial meltdown forced Honda to axe these plans.

Honda very well knew that Acura couldn't rival the LUXURY auto makers by sticking only to V6 and FWD. That's why it wanted to add V8 and RWD to the Acura lineup, but once again failed to materialize.

Now Acura is really sticking with V6 and FWD, but not by choice.

So, after seeing that the Acura brand had still failed to be recognized as a TRUE LUXURY brand even after more than 20 years of existence, Honda gave up the original goal and decided to lower it's sight to "Tier-1 luxury". Then not too long ago, lowered the goal again to become "Smart luxury".

You can see that Honda will never delete the word "luxury" from it's jargon, simply because that's the sole purpose of the Acura brand.

However, if this downward trend continues, very soon Acura is gonna rival nothing else, but the econo Honda.

Acura really needs RWD to set it apart from the econo Honda division.

The original purpose of Acura was to rival BMW and MB, but Acura had and still has nothing to rival them. Without the proper hardware, Acura has unfortunately been gradually forced out of the TRUE LUXURY vehicle arena.

Ruby

I gotta disagree. Acura has always been about the bang for your buck. In the sense of what you get for price, no they have never been rivaling BMW and Mercedes..Acura has always been about having a lot of "luxury" options in one simple package without nickle and diming people to death like BMW does. Also they have that Honda reliablity unlike some other luxury brands at a really attractive price point and Acura has always touted this. Bottom line is, if they were trying to compete with BMW or Mercedes, Acuras would have been a lot less affordable from day one.

TRIUMPHT

iTrader: (1)

i see alot of people talking about more horses but that leaving you with worst fuel economy ....but at the end of the day as most said the G sedans.....have similar fuel economy and still have 50 more horses than the base TL and 25 more horses than the SH TL ...............so that is something that acura should also look at...................................

as far as all wheel drive .....the point someone made about having it optional is the truth....me per say doesn't care about that ......any car i have is usually my primary car and i live in N.Y so i need my car to be able to get around in snow......so front wheel drive and awd are usually always gonna be my options........


now as to what they can add......i am a really simple guy don't care about to much extra stuff ........but i do wish they would do push to start standard as most companies are doing now.....the fact that i would have had to shell out over 40K for that option i thought was pretty ridiculous ...especially since infiniti G starts at 31K and comes standard with push to start and back up camera...........

gas i don't care to much about at this point ...i only drive my car on the weekend ...the car is sporty enough for me because majority of the highways in N.Y are F%*&@# up any way and you will rarely be able to reach the speeds you want with out either messing up your car or getting a HEFTY ticket.......but it wouldn't hurt to have those extra horses especially if another company is offering that for around the same price tag..........

Edward'TLS

Is the $50K RL "affordable" ? I hardly think so. But a $40K RL is. The $50K sedan price tag has creeped into the luxury car territory.

Not long ago, Honda had been developing V8 and RWD for the Acura brand, but the plan was very unfortunate to be cut short by the global meltdown.

If Acura didn't want to compete with BMW and MB, why would it work on a V8 RWD RL and on a RWD chassis for future Acura vehicles ? Tell me what would a V8 RWD RL compete with, other than BMW and MB ?

One thing must be clear. We must not mix up with Acura's intentions and with Acura's end-results.

Please read this "Acura 25 years of Innovation" official press release :

http://www.acuranews.com/channels/ac...-of-innovation

Honda created the Acura division back in 1986 to compete with the luxury German brands, which are BMW and MB and maybe Audi. This was Acura's intention.

The 2G TL was named by the auto industry as the best value entry-level luxury sedan. But not any more for the 3G and definitely not for the 4G, since the price tags had gone up considerably from the "value-buy" or "affordable" level to approach the near luxury level as in today.

Acura tried the hard way to go upmarket by jacking up it's price as with the $50+K RL. The RL flopped big time. Buyers found it hard to justify paying $50+K for an Acura sedan, especially with no V8 option engine.

Acura saw this shortcoming and started work on V8 and RWD. But development work was eventually stopped by the global meltdown.

One can see that every move by Acura is to try to go upmarket, to become true luxury, and to have the luxury German brands in it's target.

Now, Acura is stuck with V6 and FWD. Acura is unable to move cars >$50K. Acura is being "affordable", because it cannot afford to become non-affordable due to it's dangling "luxury" brand image and limited vehicle hardware. These are the unintentional end results.

Thus, trying to compete with the luxury German brands was what Acura wanted to do all these years, and is also what Acura still unable to do even after 24 years have gone by.

What we have here with Acura today is the end results of it's inability to compete with the true luxury auto brands. It has never been Acura's intention from day one.

jspagna1

+1 Agreed. Also I drove an 06 MB 280C 4Matic for 4 days this past weekend and notice a couple of nice little features that would be nice to see in the next gen TL.
1. There's a button on the dash that you can push and it will automotically drop the rear headrests. Something I know my wife would like.
2. A rear sunshade would be nice as well for the back seat passengers and to keep the car cooler.
3. I would also like to see poweradjust steering column.

Stew4HD

Maybe Acura just needs to bite the bullet and start copying BMW/MB/Inf/Lex/Audi....?

Why do they need an RWD? There are plenty of other cars with it, so those wanting that can go to them.

For the most part, Acura has been about luxury and reliability. Lately thay have been about going against the grain and being bold. Acura is not an "everyman's car company". Acura is about refinement and walking a different path than the others...

For the 5G, just carry on with trend setting and be different, bold and exciting. I find the '12 to be a huge step up from the 3G. I expect the 5G will do the same compared to the 4G.
... my 2 cents

SL1200MK4

Man, your analysis is again dead on.

As a 2nd Gen owner looking for his next car. The TL certainly is no longer THE bargain that it once was. Don't get me wrong, I do like the 4th Gen TL with SH-AWD. But I don't see how the price can be justified.

Moving towards V8 and RWD are going to be costly. I wonder if the R&D money can be better spent on hybrid technology.

Treblig

Agreed. All of what I miss as my '06 RL had those features.

mark47

I had a 05 TL and loved it. Moved to the RL in 06. Now looking to buy another Acura and thinking why a RL when the TL isn't much different and costs a lot less.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

But Honda is not too interested in getting excellent EPA numbers. Honda is more concern about REAL WORLD mpg numbers. Unfortunately, from what I've seen, turbocharged cars just don't do as well in the real world. I think this is why Honda is reluctant to go that route. Recently, Honda tried it without the RDX. As we all know, that car isn't that efficient (just like CX-7, another turbo-4 CUV). Audi is another company that uses turbo on many of its cars. Again, I don't see any advantage in terms of mpg. Q5 is the perfect example. The Q5 3.2 gets better mpg than the Q5 2.0T in the real world.

flchas

Agreed, but in reverse order. My '96 Millenia S has a power tilt steering wheel, which tilts up when the key is removed from the ignition. Otherwise, the TL appears to be the most obvious replacement available on the market. Other than driver memory settings, the sunshade is the most missed convenience feature on that car.

Cheers.

Hamma Tyme

You may want to check your Audi Q5 numbers being the 2.0T has a better MPG number unless of course there is something different about REAL WORLD mpgs. If Acura would like to add torque and HP and increase MPG, Acura needs to stop making their cars larger and think about using weight saving materials to increase MPGs. In REAL WORLD REALITY, Acura needs to either reduce weight, explore Hybrids, Turbos, and or diesel.

But IMHO, that might be too much for Acura's plate. Or maybe I'm wrong.