dave1

http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shop...l=TL&year=2012

http://www.examiner.com/cars-in-nati...al-crash-score

Two freakin' stars for frontal crash test on my brand new 2012 TL?!? What? Forget all the performance stuff, if this car is as bad as it says then I am already thinking of getting rid of it. I kind of took Acura's safety to be a given.... I am really surprised that Honda would let that out the door.

I am a little confused as to why IIHS ranks the TL so well. Anyone have any thoughts?

Teddybear

http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/sa...Acura&model=TL

2010 was ok....

Must be the smaller shield on the 2012. That's gotta be it!! LOL

It gets highest rating elsewhere...
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=436

I would also think that full frontal is less likely than the offset, or side collision.

Teddybear

This might explain it a bit....

http://www.edmunds.com/acura/tl/2011/

Mr Marco

Don't feel bad, the Jetta didn't do very well either.

TSXV6Guy

From the NHTSA web site:

Explanation of 1990–2010 tests compared to 2011-Newer tests.


Starting with 2011 models, NHTSA has introduced tougher tests and rigorous new 5-Star Safety Ratings that provide more information about vehicle safety and crash avoidance technologies. Because of the more stringent tests, ratings for 2011 and newer vehicles should not be compared to ratings for 1990-2010 models. Overall vehicle score and frontal crash ratings should ONLY be compared to other vehicles of similar size and weight.

Bearcat94

^^

Yeah. The way I read it is the 2012 is as good as the 2010, but due to new standards/new rating system, the 2012 scores lower on the new scale.

Acura_Dude

^^This.

ZCL

These scores are pitiful. New tests versus old tests matter not. Anyone know what the major changes were that made the TL fail and yet its competition does well?

Ken1997TL

Which competitors do well?

If you guys suddenly think the TL magically is made out of cardboard and won't protect you, you're very misinformed. Mercedes and others who put tens of millions of dollars yearly into safety were also downgraded.

I'm wondering how many times they crash these cars. One car one time per test? Two?

Would a Passat get 5 stars each time it was crashed say out of five? Things I've always wondered.

Bearcat94

Do you really think that your 2012 is 60% less safe in a front end crash than your 2010?

There were no "major changes were that made the TL fail", except the test method.

Test methods matter.




http://www.safercar.gov/staticfiles/...v07569C021.wmv - 35 MPH Frontal. 2 Stars (4 Star Driver; 2 Star Passanger).

http://www.safercar.gov/staticfiles/...v07539C001.wmv - 38.5 MPH Side Impact. 4 Stars.

http://www.safercar.gov/staticfiles/...v07538C001.wmv - 20 MPH Side Pole. 5-Stars.

sebounet2005

Malibu, kia optima, hyundai sonata are doing much better.

kia optima 5 stars everywhere

http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shop...vehicleId=6132



I m really surprised.

PUT THE BEAK BACK

Bearcat94

And the 2012 V6 Accord. Seems kind of odd that the TL did poorly in that particular test, compared to it's cousin.


I predict a rematch between the TL and the NHTSA concrete wall.

RSLTSX09XMNAVWX

I went back and looked at both the 2010 crash video and the 2012 crash video. If the 2012 is FASTER in speed, this might expalin it, but the 2012 does suffer more damage. The Left front mirror gets disloged and the front left fender goes into the drivers door... This does not happen in the 2010 crash test???

Ken1997TL

I say retest it. Retest the Passat and others. See if they can CONSISTENTLY offer the same results.

dave1

That is the way I read it too. I believe the bad scores reflect the safety of the 4g model in all of it's model years. As I was reading through the safergov website they said they will not be retroactively adjusting scores, even in light of the new test results.

It is true a lot of models were downgraded from 5 stars, however most only went down slightly (4 stars). IMHO a decrease from 5 to 2 stars, if true, represents a complete failure of the acura safety engineers.

I would love to see a retest, only because the results are so inconsistent with previous ratings of the vehicle. That being said, if the powers that be rate this a more accurate test, then I think we have assume these are the more valid results.

Glashub

I wouldn't worry about that....the TL gives you what you need to avoid any crashes. That's the whole purpose of being a good, sober, sane driver.

mtc46jw

I believe that if Acura wants to maintain its status as a premium vehicle it had better ask for a re-test and soon! Or fix the the problem if possible, ya right!

The resulting loss of confidence and subsequent loss of re-sale value to this generation of Acura once widely known will be atrocious.

One of the principal reasons I bought this car was because of its high safety rating! To now have it reduced to 2 stars in a frontal crash (regardless of testing methods) is very worrying indeed.

I mean shit....a little mazda3 scores better under the same testing criteria! WTF is up with that!

While some may argue that the reduced frontal crash test doesn't matter much, I would suggest that they re-think that premise again. Especially if they have ever been in a this type of crash like I have.

My last car, a 2005 Honda accord V6 did extremely well and likely saved my life when I was hit in the front by a truck at a stop light!

I am/will now re-think the whole question of keeping the car. That's how serious I am about the whole safety rating issue!

Time for Acura to step up to the plate! Their window of opportunity is small. I will call them this morning to see what they say about their results. Don't hold your breath.

Signed;

extremely disappointed

dave1

I wholeheartedly agree. Please let me know what they say.

DannyZRC

you all realize the scores are relative and not absolute?

and so the march to the 40 ton battlewagon with a 4 star 2037 IIHS frontal offset rating continues.

dave1

I do realize they are relative. I realize in car verses truck, car loses. I realize size matters, despite what my friend's wife says. When I buy a car safety is one of my top concerns as I have two young kids who both ride with me and for whom I want to be around. This is why I buy a larger size car. Not interested in an SUV, although I might reconsider. But if Acura at this price point can't do as well or better than the competition, what is really the point of buying this car? Especially in safety where I would expect (and frankly demand) the basic level for Acura (and at this price point) would be safer than most, in a relative rating.

Specifically I buy Honda brand products due to their reputation for safety and reliability. Had these results been available to me earlier, I would have crossed the TL (my second) off the list. I live in Colorado where over 50% of vehicles on the road are SUV's or trucks. On the unlikely possibility I am hit head on, it is more likely than not to be against a heavier vehicle. I just want a fighting chance... It's what I thought I paid for.

Thanks for letting me rant.

mtc46jw

Just got through on the phone to Acura Canada, ha...lol..ha.. What a bunch of slow-witted so and so's! They are unbelievable! Maybe someone should try the US office?

I asked them what they thought about the latest tests by the NHTSA and I was told that Acura does not recognize any testing from the USA safety authorities. And does its own crash testing. Therefore it was not valid in their minds. Huh?

When pushed, after I explained that SAFETY was one of the main reasons why a bought an Acura instead of another vehicle. They said "Well what was the rating when you bought the car"! I said this 2012 AWD replaced my 2010 which was tested under different set of tests and now even a little Mazda3 now performed better than the TL under the newer front collision tests!

They had no response, I suggested that they redo the tests and they again said no, they do their own. But would pass it on to whomever.

Told them I would likey sell the car and get a Mazda3 or a cheaper accord v6 that passed all the tests with flying colours and it didn't phase them in the slightest!

Tried to explain the following rating system to them to no avail.

NHTSA ratings The more stars, the less a chance of a crash resulting in life-threatening injuries or injuries that require hospitalization. Fewer stars mean a higher the chance of injury.

• 1 Star = 46% or more chance of injury
• 2 Stars = 36–45% chance of injury
• 3 Stars = 21–35% chance of injury
• 4 Stars = 11–20% chance of injury
• 5 Stars = 10% or less chance of injury

I can only imagine being hit by a truck again with these ratings! I don't want to go through that again!


Acura...Wake up and get your head out of your A..

Litt

Would you really want to have a head on collision in a tiny and light car? If a subcompact gets hit by a large vehicle the transfer of energy to yoru car will be huge.

The TL is much bigger and much more room to crumple and protect you. I would rather crash in a TL than in a Mazda3 or a Optima any day.

Cars Examiner

As the author of the linked Examiner.com piece on the crash tests, I found my way over to this page and thought I might be able to clarify a few points about NHTSA crash testing:

-As several people have noticed, the tests became more challenging starting with the 2011 model year, and the newer ratings aren't comparable with the old. It's also not on a steady sliding scale or anything like that, as changes to test procedures can produce some different results. Some cars actually improved under the new tests (though they may have received quiet design changes.)

-Because NHTSA threw out all its old ratings, there aren't as many cars to compare the TL's performance to. But its frontal rating was the lowest of the cars in its class that have been tested thus far: the Cadillac CTS (five stars), and the four-star Audi A4, Mercedes-Benz C-Class and Nissan Maxima, and it was also lower than any of the many mainstream midsize sedans that have been tested.

-The frontal crash test roughly simulates a head-on collision with a car of the same weight. Unless your real-world collision is against a rigid barrier, as in the crash test, a heavier car has an advantage.

-NHTSA does only conduct one test per type per vehicle. (IE one frontal, one side-barrier, one side-pole.) There are already people who aren't comfortable with their tax dollars buying even that many Acuras to be wrecked. But, if it's anything like the IIHS crash test I sat in on, the automaker is encouraged to have a representative to make sure proper test procedures were followed.

In conclusion, does the test say the TL is unsafe, exactly? No, but it says that in a particular crash scenario, it doesn't perform as well as a lot of other cars. It's inarguably an embarrassment, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's one that's corrected.

mtc46jw

I am following this thread with a great deal of interest because of the poor rating for my 2012 Acura SHAWD and my experience on being smacked by a truck at a stop light.

The 2 ton Truck that hit me was way bigger than my accord and that car saved my life. This car (the TL)with a rating like this probably won't. And I'm pissed.

Regardless of the simplistic attitude that in a battle with a mazda3 you might come out even in a TL. With its a score of 2 stars I severely doubt it. Survivability as you are all aware is not always limited to the relative mass of each vehicle. Especially if one is inherently better able to absorb the energy so that is not transmitted into the passenger cabin. So lets not go there.

Are we suggesting that we can only crash into a vehicle of the same weight or less if we expect to survive without injury? that argument doesn't make sense.

Secondly, while its good to hear that the MFG's are encouraged to attend these test, did Acura attend these tests? do we have any feedback from them regarding their very poor performance?

Lastly, If you review the complete list on the NHTSA web site, of all the vehicles listed as tested under the new format. None, I repeat none, tested as low as the TL in a frontal crash, regardless of the category of vehicle! And none have dropped 3 stars in their rating. Dropping a star wouldn't bother me but dropping from 5 to 2 stars?!!

It leads me to believe that there is something inherently wrong with the design of the so called ACE safety structure of the TL. Notice the Accord 5 star rating, and even the ZDX which does not lose too badly on its test scores, why is that?

Are you suggesting that in a frontal crash with either of these cars the TL would come out okay? Nope it wouldn't.

Personally, after just returning from Florida to Canada on the US interstate hwy's I didn't notice too many cars that where much smaller than the TL. Lots of pick-up trucks, SUV's etc. and god forbid, Thousands of Semi's. Where does that leave us.

Either Acura re-tests, re-designs or we are outta luck. Has anyone called Acura USA to ask them whats up? This news will get out soon no matter what.

Then what do you do with your car? Drive it and cross your fingers hoping that maybe only a much smaller, more poorly rated car hits you? Come on. lets get real here.

I spent 45K on a premium car that was supposed to one of the safest cars on the road! And what do I now find out? Its one of the worst tested so far in a frontal crash! Hell.. even a cheapy dodge caliper is better?

That makes a lot of sense doesn't it!

sebounet2005

Our only solution is to make a buying group for lucky charms.

I'm also very disappointed because i m a salesman and always on the road, so safety is very important for me. Honestly if i have knew that before buying it, i would have purchased a volvo s60. I didn't because i was afraid of reliability. But the probability that unreliability kill you is less than in a crash. some unreliabilties can become a situation for a crash i agree, but the probability is low.

Also i'd like to know why it's low, NHTSA used to give some explanation. like to much deceleration on the chest could give bad injuries, or ankle could be broken for the driver in front crash test. But here we have nothing.

I remember when they changed all the test for the rear impact to see if headerest were good. Almost all car fails to this test, but the next generation of car , all car have done well. But here the rule have changed for everyone and just the TL is so low in star rating.

What could we do at Acura, to express our feeling, i know they don't care, but we must have some answers or comments from them

Teddybear

AWD-SH TL's are also 2 tons.
ZDX is based on the accord chassis (and crosstour), that's prob why they share similar crash scores.

This explains how the tests are conducted.
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/nh...ined-4239.html

DannyZRC

also, the comparison to the mazda 3 is erroneous, as NHTSA clearly states that results can only be compared within class (to mean size/weight constraints).

a 3 star 2900lb car is not safer than a 2 star 4100lb car.

sebounet2005

It's strange but on IIHS website, they gave a good rating, but they sepcify that is only for 2012 model built after sept 2011. I'm wondering what was the change, i think it's about roof but not sure

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=15


Do you think the NHTSA test will result in an insurance increase ?

mtc46jw

Lets try this again. The NHTSA uses a fixed barrier and doesn't vary the speed of any vehicle. all vehicles hit the wall at the same speed.

Then are judged as to type of injury sustained by the "dummies". Just how this recreates a similar vehicle is not fully explained, I assume that its just basic physics that says it nullifies and un equal and opposite reaction. however read on;

Frontal Crash Test (NHTSA)

As we mentioned before, the NHTSA and IIHS each have their own way of conducting the tests. Let's first look at the NHTSA one. In the frontal test, two average male sized crash test dummies are placed in the driver and front-passenger seat and are secured by the car's compulsory seatbelts. The vehicle is then rammed head-on into a fixed barrier at a speed of 35 mph (56 km/h). This speed tries to recreate the impact of two similarly weighed vehicles colliding each other head-on at the aforementioned speed.

"The force inflicted upon the high-tech dummies is then measured, and the NHTSA dudes give the car a star rating based on each dummie's chance of serious injury, expressed in percentages. By the way, by “serious injury” the NHTSA means an injury that requires immediate hospitalization and may be life-threatening, so a broken finger nail doesn't count. The star ratings used by the NHTSA make everything look like a game of Russian roulette, but here they are anyway:

5 Stars (meaning 10% or less chance of serious injury)
4 Stars (meaning 11-20% chance of serious injury)
3 Stars (meaning 21-35% chance of serious injury)
2 Stars (meaning 36-45% chance of serious injury)
1 Star (meaning 46% or greater chance of serious injury)

The Tl is not that heavy a car now a days, many are almost equally the same weight. For example read on the subject of weight vs saftey;

"Are You Safer With a Higher Weight Car? How Much Weight Can My Car Tow
The gross vehicle weight of your car or truck doesn't figure much into crash testing safety. What does matter is how your vehicle is put together, airbags included, and how it performs in crash tests. The Honda Odyssey, a minivan, has a five-star crash test rating; however, a large pick-up truck such as the Dodge Ram has only a three-star crash test rating. Crash test ratings are published by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration or NHTSA. Obviously, a pick-up truck weighs more than a minivan so before you choose a vehicle to buy, seek out safety ratings from the NHTSA or at Edmunds.When considering the question, how much does my car weigh, you'll find that safety may be more important than weight, unless you plan to use the vehicle for hauling or towing. If you do plan to use your car for towing, ask an automotive salesperson or a mechanic what gross vehicle weight rating you'll need for your load, and keep in mind that gross vehicle weight rating is the vehicle's capacity only. The gross vehicle weight is what the car actually weighs.

Hope that helps people understand the mistaken idea that weight is the best criteria for safety! Its only a small part of the equation. Don't be fooled.

DannyZRC

the total energy is divided equally, the total acceleration is divided by mass.

if two cars collide, and one is twice as heavy as the other, that heavier car will experience half the acceleration due to the collision.

the use of a fixed barrier, as your quote states, attempts to simulation two vehicles of equal mass colliding.

I'm not fooled, but you may be.

esco115

From 5 to 2 stars is a big drop espacially a premium brand.

Its sad that my 2012 Maxima out scored the 2012 TL in every catagory except rollover (both scored 5).

Acura do have to step up the safety game alittle.

Teddybear

exactly. Force = [Mass][Acceleration]

or else why would they rank cars by weight class???

misu

the male driver is fine (4 stars) only the female passenger gets hurt

Litt

I watched some offset crashes on youtube between sedans and subcotmpacts. I.e. Accord, vs. Fit. C Classs Vs. Smart.
The subcompacts get THRASHED. they get whipped around and and almost turned over. The sedans are fine.

What I don't get is how the Accord is safe. And the TL isn't now? They are based on the same frame and safety technology, Aren't they?

I don't understand how a 2011 TL 2011 is 5 star and very safe. But suddently 2012 has a new grill and it's unsafe? I don't believe that. People are too worried.

TooLaggy

F=MA , but that only applies to block of steel against the same block of steel. Cars have crumple zones and it's how you design the crumple zone that matters.

Accord and TL share the same frame, but they do not share the same front crumple zone body. That's why Accord is safer.

Teddybear

^ that was directed at the argument that a mazda3 would be safer than a full sized sedan. Yes. i realize that crumple zones matter, but the argument here is that ppl are comparing ratings to cars in other categories, which is invalid because of the huge difference in mass.

jmps

My wife is interested in a new 2012 TL. She test drove it and we are ready to buy. This crash test has us concerned about the TL. Has anyone heard about any Acura response to this? We don't want a car that isn't safe. Our shopping process has been long and it is frustrating to see this.

esco115

^ buy it you wont regret it, the new TL is rated on a harsher scale... so whether it be a 2010 TL or a 2012 TL on that scale it will come out the same.

I owned a 08 TL-S and the rating is a little less then the newer TL's and I have seen ppl walk out of accidents that shouldn't. Its a safe car to be in.

Ken1997TL

PANIC PANIC!

My wife's CR-Z has been downgraded to 3 stars on the side impact test. I'm buying a Mack truck to replace it immediately

Litt

I saw a TL that hit a lamp post head on. Car was a total write off. The guy was fine.