Legend2TL

http://www.hondanews.com/categories/1097/releases/4898

[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/laskopj1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG]01/05/2009 - TORRANCE, Calif. - American Honda Motor Co., Inc., today reported 2008 annual vehicle sales of 1,428,765, a decrease of 8.2 percent compared to 2007 results on a daily selling-rate* basis. American Honda's December sales totaled 86,085, a decrease of 34.7 percent.
Honda Division's 2008 annual sales of 1,284,261 decreased 6.7 percent compared to 2007. Honda Division's December monthly sales of 75,405 represent a decrease of 34.0 percent compared to 2007. Annual total car sales of 794,421 for the Honda Division increased 1.0 percent and set a record for the fourth consecutive year. The division's truck sales decreased by 16.9 percent to 489,840.
Accord, the top-selling Honda model for 2008, achieved annual sales of 372,789, down 5.3 percent. December Accord sales decreased 28.5 percent, to 22,348. Civic sales totaled 339,289 for the year, up 2.1 percent. December Civic sales decreased to 17,302, down 36.4 percent. Annual Fit sales of 79,794, up 40.9 percent, set a record for the third consecutive year. December Fit sales decreased 1.5 percent, to 5,039.
"American Honda's sales mirror the industry's current condition," said Dick Colliver, executive vice president of American Honda Motor Co., Inc. "We believe Honda will be in a strong position when the market stabilizes."
The Acura Division's total year-end sales of 144,504 vehicles represented a decline of 20.0 percent. December Acura sales totaled 10,680, down 39.3 percent. The Acura TL led the division with annual sales of 46,766, followed closely by the Acura MDX with sales of 45,377 - the previous best-selling Acura in 2007.
*The annual Daily Selling Rate (DSR) is calculated with 308 days for 2008, versus 307 for 2007. Both December 2007 and 2008 included 26 selling days. All percentages in this release represent DSR.

SSFTSX

TL has 40% drop. TSX is holding.

rehab_pain

according to the thread tsx is down 20% from dec of last year, that aint holding

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

damm the s2000 is not selling well at all. its overpriced new but you can find a nice bargain one used somewhere...that will be the new toy when i get some more money rolling in

(Cj)

Look at the numbers. The TL is down by thousands and the TSX is only down by a few hundred units. Also look at the yearly numbers. The TSX is holding.

F23A4

Without running the risk of being , a lot of the sales successes and failures have to do with the availability of credit needed to purchase or lease said models. (Credit availability itself being a victim of the current economic climate.) Now could be a good time for Acura to introduce the CSX stateside.

SSFTSX

I dont think it has anything to do with credit availability. Those who shop for luxury brand has stellar credit and disposable income compared to those shoping for Honda or Kia.
Car dealer usually ask for Income proof before they run credit check.
Audi has the smallest decline in Luxury vehicles and New A4 has agian beatup TL.
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...%7D&dist=msr_1

CSX will be worst idea for States. It will be priced as $25K for 4 cylinder noisy engine. Acura luxury cars are already lower priced than others. So it will further de value the brand image.

Acura does not have that Global sale base like Audi/Lexus. Acura will sink or swim with US market alone. Half of dealers will closed down by this sales level.

PetesTL

....but since you're so smart, you bought a TSX, right?

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

^ But keep in mind Acura is considered as a luxury brand that emphasizes greatly on value. In other words, people who buy them are not all that rich.

And wow, BMW fell 40%.

It doesn't matter much now if it's global or not. In November 2008 European car sales went down by 27%, may be not as crazy as in the States, but that's still not very good. In fact, Lexus fell 44% in Europe, "Deliveries of its Lexus brand fell 44%." (http://www.financialpost.com/news/story.html?id=1081331)

From that same article, you will see that BMW fell 31% and Mini fell 41%. Audi was pretty much the only brand gained, but it was only a 0.1% increase (still good considering most were falling). However, that was for November, not sure about December. Toyota by the way fell 34% in Europe in November.

S2000 Driver

This is the most preposterous comment I've read on this site yet.

SSFTSX

Problem for Acura is that it cannot survive with 40% sales decline. It does not have any thing exciting vehciles for next 4 years for things to turn around. Nor it can generated revenue to achive what BMW/Audi/Lexus/MB Already achieved. .
it is way behind in introducing New transmissions/RWD/fuel efficient V6/V8/Turbos/Diesel/hybrids.
50% of Lexus GS sales in Germany are higher priced hybrids.

The best course i already suggested to merge Acura with Honda and lower the price of cars. So alteast these cars will be available to consumer to buy.

F23A4

You beat me to it.

KeithL

OK so the TL is down about 40% and G35 Sedan is down 12% and sold 300 more cars than the TL, considering the G was basically only 2008 models competing against the 09 TL that does not look good for the TL. Sure the G was big discount, but it was also a 14 month old model year compared to new body style TL. I was in my dealer today to make an appoint and my sakes guy was crying abut how bad sales are and TL in particular to the point that even though the AWD is selling good he is willing talk invoice on a AWD, too bad I still don't like the styling!

Colin

I'm really torn on this. On one hand, I think there is a market for a 25K Acura, but obviously they can't do the CSX without a major restyle. IMO, this makes it impossible to sell it for $25k. Another thought would be a sedan (vs. hatchback) version of the new Insight. With the diesel on hold, some form of "luxury" hybrid might be a good move to counter the Lexus version of the new Prius.

J.A.S.

It's not just Honda that was down. Toyota saw a greater percentage drop and GM reported the lowest sales since 1959 (and there were far fewer drivers in 1959)!

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...e2E&refer=home

If someone thinks that Acura can't make it, think about the fact that The American Lease Guide recently gave Acura the award for brand with the highest residual values. Acuras are still very desirable vehicles even as used cars.


I 100% agree about the lack of availability of credit being a big factor as well as consumer anxiety about the economy. For anyone that has been living on a remote island for 2008, here are two quotes from another Bloomberg article to bring you up to speed:

Although the government has committed more than $8.5 trillion to energizing the economy, and the Fed cut a key lending rate almost to zero, banks haven’t made it easier to borrow. The Fed said consumer credit fell by $6.4 billion in August, the largest drop in 65 years, and then by $3.5 billion in October, the first time since 1992 that there were two months of declines in a year.

“Right now there is no new lending, and without new lending it’s going to be difficult for the economy to recover,” Roger Altman, founder and chief executive officer of boutique investment bank Evercore Partners Inc. and an assistant Treasury secretary in the Carter administration, said in a Dec. 29 interview with Bloomberg TV.

Regarding the comment on those who shop for luxury brands have disposable income and stellar credit, look at the people who bought the big, fancy houses on $80,000 annual income or bought cars with home equity loans on inflated house prices. Now the houses are worth 75% of their loan amounts and they can't afford payments.

Sorry for the long diatribe but I've worked in the financial services industry for 23 years and feel passionate about the subject and Acuras.

CL6

In 06 Acura broke 200,000 sales for the first time. Considering they lost the RSX and the RDX has not been a hot seller and the RL is a dog it's amazing how many TLs, TSXs, and MDXs they did sell.

There is no "lack" of credit. There is making loans to people based on how likely it is for them to repay the loans which is how it should have been all along. Keeping people who are not qualified from getting a loan will, in the end, be better for everybody.

Besides, where I work we've gotten people bought with FICO in the 500s. Making loans based on solid financial decisions is where it should have been all along.

Besides, there were plenty of car companies out there that made their numbers not by selling the car but by selling the loan. They lost their asses, and rightly so.

rehab_pain

actually acura has set up the tsx to go head to head with the new a4 while the much larger tl is positioned to compete against the a6, so the tsx is actually the vehicle that is getting beat up by the new a4.

CL6

To be fair, what Acura has 'set up' vs. what the marketplace has decided may be two different things. Do we hav evidence to show the A4 is 'winning' the sales battle against the TSX?

SSFTSX

Have you considered Audi A4 wheel base, weight, interior space, Price, performance/sport dynamic suspension/S-Line Trime package./New upgrades with HDD navigation with google maps.
It is in Acura TL-SH-AWD class. I will not even consider FWD tech TL in A4 class.
They are adding low cost FWD A4 along with Manual transmission next year.




Competition for Acura is just begining. I dont see how Acura is going to increase sales when its main product TL under. and flag ship RL is going now where. Only bright spot is low cost TSX (Rearview camera with no overlays) and MDX that are holding. MDX will meet its fate next year.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Well, Acura sales didn't decline by 40%, the TL in December 08, compared to december 07 did. Acura overall sale went down by 20%, which is less than Cadillac and Lexus.

Even if Acura sales go down by a lot, it will still survive since most, if not all of its cars are based on Honda models. It doesn't cost that much for Honda to develop Acura cars at this moment, at least compared to a car that has to be developed from scratch. But then I'm not an accountant working for Acura, so who knows.

But you are right, there are no news about any exciting products from Acura, such as a sports coupe, or sports car, etc.

However, in terms of fuel efficient V6, it's still doing well, if not ahead of the game. That is, I'm talking about real-world fuel efficiency, not EPA ratings. This has been proven many times, no need to discuss it further.

Acura does have a turbo engine, but people don't like it too much, or people don't like how it's being applied.

I think the only luxury brand that has hybrid cars is Lexus, is there any hybrid Infiniti, BMW, or Mercedes in North America? You can't really say Acura is behind in hybrid, since pretty much only Lexus has it.

Also, I don't recall Infiniti, Audi or Lexus having diesel-equipped cars here in North America, and BMW just joined the game here. Again, you can't say Acura is behind and most of its competitors don't have diesel.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

In this economy, discount really helps. And I think this is where the argument is all about - does big discount sell cars, or redesign? I'd say it's really hard to say.

On the other hand, the IS, even with its incentive programs, also dropped by almost 40%. 3 series and ES didn't do much better at -35%. The bread-and-butter G couple dropped by almost 50%!

SSFTSX

Acura sales decline 40% in december just like 40% for TL. For the year it is 20% decline But 20% decline for Acura has much bigger impact than 30% decline for Lexus/BMW/MB. think hard u will get the answer.
Problem is the cost of marketing/sales/dealership/supply chain for separat brand. Honda hasnt invested financially and technolgoically enough in Acura to differentiate the brand. and result is pretty obvious. Acura is all concentrated in North America and still in decline. There is no future of Acura as separat global brand. So the investment money will not come anyway. So why not merge it with Honda now instead wasing money for years in supporting subpar luxury.
Not even engines and transmissions for current cars either that will boost sales.
It is one of the worst V6 in business interms of fuel efficiency.
that turbo is underpowered and not fuel efficient for its size.
All Germans have introduced diesels and they are going to expand it. MB sales hold quite well. and MB are very expensive.
Acura has not plans in near future for diesel. Audi diesel across the board is joining the lineup. There is not even V6 diesel from Honda even in existence. and that 5 speed automatic make it underpower and overpolluted for four cylinder car. As i said they are decade behind. It will take untill 2011 model year to introduce new transmission.

rehab_pain

Acura is actually setting up the tsx to be a direct competitor to the a4 same length same width close to the same weight. The tsx is just supposed to be a cheap yet dependable version of the a4 without the AWD. The TL is actually longer than than the a6 and compares well to it. Acura is moving the TL upmarket to compare against the a6, the 5 series and the e-class. while the TSX is left to battle it out with the 3 series, c class and a4. Thats always been honda's motto make it less expensive and dependable. I really don't know what the heck they are doing with the RL.

SSFTSX

Cars are measure by interior capacity and comfort levels have direct relationship with wheel base. Acura falls behind in both instances.

How is Acura going upmarket. look at dealer inventory price of A4. It is between $45 to $50K. The same as RL which has more standard equipment.
Acura simply dont have prestige to charge premium prices.
http://www.cars.com/go/crp/research....009&modelid=21

Acura brand is going nowhere.

Legend2TL

Folks, please don't feed the troll it only make more verbose

KeithL

Never going to happen and ther eis no way I'll buy an "Acura" from Honda dealer, the expierience is totally different, Honda is all about volume, moving people through delaership and service, Acura is not. While I am not impressed with 4G TL, have you been in an Accord, theat interir is far cheaper look and feel, the 4G TL interior is much more upscale, with the exception of that cluttered cheap i-drive like knob.

Colin

Inventories on the '08 TLs must be getting pretty low. It appears that Acura removed the dealer cash incentive and special financing offers on the old TL.

CL6

Here we go again! I agree.

Crucifer

This has nothing to do with the 2009 TL...it should be posted in the 3G forums.

The estimated differences occured late in the year where the TL was just hitting lots so all TL sales were 08 and prior TL's and the reason they sold so well was everyone was buying the last 3G stock available before hideousness arrived.

Wait till you see next years drops.

Then you can post here.

SSFTSX

I didnot said that every Honda dealer should sell Acura lineup cars under Honda badge. Some dealers should be upgraded to provide upgraded service for Acura lineup cars. U can see $29K Honda Accord V6 EX-L and $39K FWD Tech TL. thats a $10K gap. It should be reduced to $5K at maximum. So FWD TECH TL should not sell more than $34K. thats the only way volume can be increased to level where profits will increase. It is better to sell 10,000 units of TL at this price than 3000 units. 10,000 units will give more leverage with suppliers to lower the cost of specialized tech package/tires/rims/seats for TL. etc.
Actuall headline is misleading. it is the pressure on companies like Honda.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1231...googlenews_wsj
Europeans Raise Pressure on Detroit

NedShneebly

[QUOTE=SSFTSX;10358132]It is one of the worst V6 in business interms of fuel efficiency.[QUOTE]

What are you smoking? Acura, Lexus and Audi are top three sedans in this class in terms of efficiency. Acura is top 10 overall in the luxury market, with the top 2 being the Benz E3200 (turbo-diesel), and a slew of Hybrids in the list - you will not see premium unleaded engine any list regarding fuel efficiency and luxury. Let's not forget the price differential. All around entry-level luxury bang for the buck is what drew most Acura buyers (and the damn good looks, IMO).

Brand new and stock, my 06 TL would get 32 mpg at 80 mph on the highway carrying 2 adults and 3 suitcases in the trunk. That's amazing for a quick, ULEV, 93 octane V6.

Please, before you bang out a response, read some of the other posts and proof read first. Some of your posts give me a headache trying to decipher them.

VTEC Racer

Looks like the TL outsold the A4 for the year, again. Then again, don't know why anyone would be surprised as the A4 has NEVER outsold the TL in yearly sales (which everyone knows is much more important than monthly sales).

A4 2008 Sales: 43,343
TL 2008 Sales: 46,766.

Looks like Acura with its weak five-care line-up also gave the entire Audi brand a spanking too.

Audi 2008 Sales: 87,760
Acura 2008 Sales: 144,504

I guess Zero Drive-off didn't do much for Audi.

Looks like VW stock is now down over 300% since the end of October.

S2000 Driver

CL6

So you DO believe in something then?


[quote=NedShneebly;10359808][quote=SSFTSX;10358132]It is one of the worst V6 in business interms of fuel efficiency.

Colin

Now now, we can't call "him" names or we'll risk banishment from the kingdom. We could simply refer to His God-like post as HIM. He certainly hands down enough judgment for an all knowing being.

PGSberg

I am proud of one of my New Years resolutions - Don't feed-in and banter with this character and above all, don't give him fuel for his crystal ball!

DMZ

Yeah, and look at the pitiful numbers for the 21 MPG highway RL and semi-pitiful numbers for the grossly overpriced RSX, a vehicle I knew would be a sales disaster the moment I checked out one close up.

SSFTSX

Yes 3G TL outsold A4 but A4 models are priced higher than TL on unit basis. try to compare RL sales with A4. 3G TL was not even AWD and was unrefined car by today standards.
Edmund is gracious by not saying anything about oversize body & high fuel consumption and 69 dba NVH.
I cant believe people here are still worshipping a dieing brand which has nothing to offer to Enthusiasts.
Audi future model lineup dont depend on sales in US market. but if TL fails. You can practically say good bye to Acura. I dont think they make too much money on imported RL/TSX.


This is called stunning technology leap into tier 1.
. AWD 200bhp 221lb-ft from 1.4L with 155mph & 35mpg on 19inch/LED lights Controlled from Cellularphone with muscular shape. If European prices are judged it will priced as TSX.

CL6

The RSX sold in decent numbers and the RL isn't bad considering AWD, 5AT, V6. In fact, if you go to www.fueleconomy.gov and compare the RL, TL AWD, Audi A4 AWD, and BMW 3 AWD you'll see that the RL averages 2 mpg less than the others or $161.00 more per year in gas. Or if you compare it to the MB E350 AWD it's exactly the same but has more HP.

Seems ok to me.

cp3117

I know a lot of you dont care for SSFTSX responses but he has provided alot of input backed by sources, articles etc compared to others. While i also may not agree with him on everything a lot of the problems i believe are mostly due to obvious language barriers.

SSFTSX said a couple months ago that the YEN and other factors would be causing big problems for Honda/Acura and people started making fun of him etc.
I found this link today which is very interesting and shows Honda maybe in more trouble than they are letting others believe (probably for obvious reasons ie. shareholders etc).....SSFTSX may just have that crystal ball!!

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/22/h...side-of-japan/