Kingmeow

[Moving thread to main forum for more responses. Mod, please close out the same thread in the Problems & Fixes forum. Thanks.]

I'm starting a new thread but my last message is here, message #8:

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788010

Basically it's seam rubbing that only occurs during low speed on local roads. On highways, the car doesn't flex enough to cause it.

So the dealer got back to me and said that since this is my fourth time in for the same problem, they called Acura Corp. Tech Line.

Corp. said that the car will need to go to a body shop to have the seem repaired, reweld and repainted. The area is on the right rear door opening, around where the rubber seal is.

Corp. also said that this is the first time they've heard of this.

The car is 11 months old with 21k+ miles.

I am so pissed that I'm speechless. All the emotions are going through me now as to what to do. So guys, calm me down and offer me some suggestions.

Here are some options I'm thinking about:

1. Leave it alone and turn up the radio. It's not a very loud noise but it is annoying once you hear it as you pick up on it every time. I'm not sure if I can live with this option as I tend to own cars until they die. My last car lasted 12 years and I'm not about to listen to seam rubbing for 12 years.

2. Do the repair. It will be under warranty and fully covered by Acura Corp. Anything that happens afterwards will be on them. However, you live with the thought that if something else happens later (like uneven wear of the rear tire) you immediately go back to this event and wonder if it's the cause of it. Plus, repaint?????!!!!!! I don't like anyone touching the factory paint unless absolutely necessary. I really really do not like this option at all at this time.

3. Call Acura (can someone provide the correct number to call, please?) and bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch until they give me a new car. Remember, the problem happened a few months after ownership. I have been addressing this at least three if not four times for the past eleven months! I can reimburse the cost of driving 21k+ miles back to Acura. The car has been at the dealer for at least 5 weeks total in the past 11 months for this issue.

3a. Does the Lemon Law apply here?

4. Trade the car in for a 2011 but I'm going to take such a bath since it's less than a year old. Why should I get the short end of the stick with my hard earned dollar???

Comments? Thoughts? Ideas? I'm ready to cry.... Really frustrated.

Basically I feel that I've bought a defective car right from the get go and I think Acura should pony up to make this right! I also have a 7/120k extended warranty and LoJack. How will that work if they were to swap me out with a new car.

Will, my fight with Corp. damage the reputation of the dealer? They have been extremely wonderful in helping me out and I don't want any negativity placed on them.

Also, will me continuly driving the "defective" car make it worse in a sense it will lessen my arugment of a swap with Acura? I am abosulutely sure, and my dealer confirmed, that continued driving of the car will not make it worst.

I really do apologize for all this rambling and what not. My life is pretty complicated right now and the last thing I need is this!!!!!!

silver01cltypes

did you see the other thread about the same noise?Other people here have the same complaint iam sure its not the first time corp has heard about this.I would let them fix it and then inspect it very well when you get it back and if it doesn't look right make them fix it again.can you explain what exactly the noise is you hear?Because i have a slight click noise when driving that sounds like its behind me from the rear deck area.When the radio is on i can't really hear it but if i turn it down its there.Just slight body movement makes the noise doesn't have to be on a rough road.It looks like acura needs to make a service bulletin on this

VQPower37

i know number 2 is hard for u considering the car is so new, but that is what warranty is for. it is suppose to fix any problems you have. i vote for option 2, and just observe everything closely such as tire wear for sumtime to make sure everything is okay. if not keep going back til u get everything fixed to ur satisfaction. best of luck on the repairs

Kingmeow

Silver:
Yes, I saw the other thread(s). It makes a "popping" noise from the area where you described. Not high frequency clicking like clicking a mouse button (but louder) but popping or tapping, like if you take your pen and tap on a formica kitchen table top. Like you, when the radio is on at a normal listening level, you can't hear it. In the beginning it was so loud that you can but after a few fixes they have reduced the noise but it's still there. Correct also on the slight body movement. As a matter of fact, rough roads won't trigger it as the noise would be louder. Things like turning into my driveway will cause it. Also turning left/right after a red light will cause it. Stepping hard on the gas after a stop may cause it. Same for a hard stop. Strange thing is that on some days, it hard rears its head while on others, it's every slight movement. I've found that it happens more on hot days, probably due to temperature expansion. As a mechanical engineer I can tell you it's chassis flex that is causing this.

If you look at the passenger side rear door opening and see that rubber strip seal on the back side? That's where the problem is.

VQ:
I just checked my records and I brought it in 2 months after ownership and 3,500 miles for the first report of the problem! Heck, that's not even the first oil change for any car! To me, I feel my car is defective from the get go. Yes, I know that's what the warranty is for but this is "major" stuff. OK, not as major as dropping in a new tranny or engine.

I need to have a drink and calm down even though I don't drink!....

TechnoCat

Keep in mind that the Acura TL SH-AWD has lost almost 10% of the value on dealer lots; locally here there's a dealer advertising it for $3000 or so below MSRP, exclusive of Acura incentives and before haggling... in an area where BMW and Audi are basically sold-out. So you will take a bath on getting out of it.

If Acura won't stake care of you, maybe it's time to try another manufacturer?

KeithL

I woudl be very reluctant to let anyone weld the car even a body shop especially in an area that is visible unless it can be perfectly done. If you go to trade the car or sell it and someone notices it they may not want the car. Also there is a change a body shop repair may hit car fax, futher hurting resale. How bad is the noise? I struggled when I got rid of my 4G AWD TL because as much as I was bored with the styling, the damn car was the best built most solid car I ever owned. At 19K miles not a peep out of it and I know how rare it is to get a car that quiet. Even my 2300 mile 2011 M37 has dash creaks over some bumps due to body flex.

JM2010 SH-AWD

Keith makes some good points about the welding part. I would put it in Acura's hands and then get a very detailed description of what exactly they're going to do before you OK it. It's unfortunate that you have this anomaly, but you're going to have to work with them to get it straightened out. I too would be very nervous about any repainting of exterior body panels.

I don't have as many miles as Keith or others of you, but so far my TL is still vault-like - I couldn't be happier with it.

The one thing I wouldn't do is dump the car and take the financial hit you would suffer from selling a relatively new car. (And note to Techno - of course they're depreciating on the lot - a 2010 is almost a full model year old - everyone knows some of the best deals on new cars are in the summer just before the next year's models come out. Even Audis and BMWs).

Bottom line, the problem you're having is not of your making so you shouldn't suffer one dime due to it. But you will have to work with Acura and the dealer to make sure it's straigtened out to your complete satisfaction.

Best of luck.

Kingmeow

Techno:
I've read your posts scattered throughout here and I know you're trying to get me to buy an Audi... Won't work. LOL!

Keith:
From the description on the phone they said it would not be an exterior panel. But rather interior, the area where the rubber gasket is on the rear door opening. Kind of like where your bicep/shoulder would be if you sat in the rear seat. I'm picking up the car tomorrow (they replaced the XM receiver due to the TSB on sound cutting out) so I'll ask them specifically where.

Acura Corporate already authorized the work but the dealer said there's no rush and to take my time thinking about it. They would work with me on whatever I want. I'm sure a car swap to a 2010 would have to bypass them and go through Corp.

I also thought about CarFax too.

So Keith, why did you trade it in at 19k miles especially when you said it was rock solid? What didn't you like? How much of a bath did you take? Based on your avatar, you traded in for a M? Nice!

As for how bad is the noise, not bad at all. Normal music radio listening often drowns it out. Talk radio you may notice. I drive highway 98% of the time so at least 98% of the time I don't hear it. But on the weekend when I "lounge" around town just enjoying my ride, that's when you would hear it and disrupts the "enjoying" part. At times though as there are good days and bad days, almost leading me to believe it's somewhat weather/temperature related.

It's definitely less "noisy" than dash creak. For example my wife doesn't hear it.

KeithL

Look at my sig, I swap cars every 2 years or so. But I was so torn with the 4G TL. I went without a car for 2 weekes after I sold my Type-S because I loved the 4G AWD ride, but did nto love the nose on the car. I was looking at G37 and Audi A4, but in the end just loved the 4G AWD ride. After 18 months I was tired of the beak and the PM color, I like a real silver and the PM was a muted beige silver and lacked the brilliance of silver. I truly loved the ride and it was the most solid best built car I have ever owned. Int he end the new M37 Sport was just too sexy for me to pass up, beatiful lines and classy interior and the M37 Sport gave a ride that was close enough to the sporty ride I had in the AWD (the 4G AWD was still a better handling planted ride). I suspect if the 2012 MMC has a Type-S version where they make the subdued styling sporty I will be in a 2012 Type-S in less than 24 months. I love my M37S, but Acura Navi and voice commands are light years ahead of Infiniti.

ostrich

Take a look at the NJ Lemon Law booklet - this is very, very helpful:

http://www.state.nj.us/lps/ca/ocp/lembroc.pdf

You may have a case here!

BigWopHH

I haven't read the NJ Lemon Law, but I'd assume it is similar to NY.

My '09 had a similar problem, but it was the weld at the top of the B-pillar on the driver's side.

At first, I was extremely angry and felt like you--that I had a defective car from the get go. After letting the dealership try to fix the car four time, and being without my ride for close to 60 days total, I decided to just speak with a Lemon Law attorny for a free consultation.

The attorney said that any problem with a new car, that the dealership hasn't been able to fix in the alloted amount of time for the Lemon Law, and that adversely affects the value of the car, is a possible Lemon according to the law. The attornet told me that he was able to get replacement cars or money back for poeple that had leaky windows that the dealership couldn't fix.

Even with that info, Acura HQ and the dealership stonewalled a bit. But after a while. I gave the dealership one more chance to fix the car and said if it's not perfect, I'm going to proceed with Lemon Law arbitration. At that point, I also mentioned that I have real safety concerns with the car. I was on the phone with Acura HQ and asked if they knew how the car would react in an accident if I was hit from the side. I actually said, "If this pillar going to fold right over because of the broken weld at the top and chop my head off?"

Once I brought safety concerns into the equation and told HQ I was working with an attorney, Acura HQ decided to replace my '09 with '10.

With all that said, after the dealership finally put my '09 back together, it seemed like the original problem was fixed.

If you've got a good dealership and you trust the service department, I say give them a shot. Noone would have known my '09 had a problem when I got it back. And having done a LOT of research on "broken" welds, it seems finding the joint is the biggest problem, not fixing it.

But, if you won't settle for anything but a replacement, just keep bringing it in for repair if it's not fixed, and once you're within range on NJ's lemon law, contact and attorney.

KeithL

Forget to answer you on this, I leased my 09 AWD, and sicne I got it early on and they were rare in the south I did nto get a great deal, but that being said I took a $2K hit that I rolled into the M37S lease. With the way I flip cars I have switched to leasing so I don't have to wrry as much about the car or selling it becasue at worst case I am stuck with a car for 3 years.

Kingmeow

BigWop,

Thanks for the summary. I am well within the Lemon Law criteria for NJ. I'm just not very comfortable welding a fairly new car. Just curious that if you did settle for the repair of the pillar, would it have gone on CarFax? Thus affecting potential resale value, etc. even though you didn't crash the car.

I think I'm just going to call one of these lawyers for a free consult. In my case, I can not argue about safety and as an engineer I know safety always wins!

When I pick up the car later I will discuss with the Service Manager and see the mood of the dealership for cases like this. Then I'll see if I will call Acura Corporate or just go right to a lawyer and let them handle it. I REALLY don't need the hassle now.

kermitson

Sorry about your issue.

I was at the dealership the other day looking at a new one (2010 Acura TL Tech)on the showroom floor and noticed the weld seams on the car looked second rate. They seemed to have lots of ripples in them and not smooth like previous cars.

I wonder what is causing this....

crxb

crazy - you need the car replaced by A

ejbrandt

I cannot believe that Acura has not addressed this issue as this is not the first time this has come up.
I also cannot believe that when Acura says we will fix the car that owners say no I want a new car. If your car was in an accident and welding had to be done, what would you do? Where do you draw the line; the dealer can change my oil but anything more and I want a new car. Its a car things are going to wrong, let them fix it, if it is not perfect don't accept it back.

KeithL

For most repair items I woudl agree, but anything structural that also may show up on a car fax will tend to have a large impact of the value fo the car. I was in a minor wreck a few years ago, but the frame tha supports the core/radiator had to be wlded back in place. All the other damage was replacement parts (new front bumper, grill, radiaot, etc) but becasue it was welded and becasue it then hit car fax in such a way that the car took a huge diminished value hit. Fortunatley in GA they have a dimished value law, but I still had to fight with my insurance to get fair payment. In the end to me anything that substantially would impact the value of the car woudl be in question for a warranty repair. In an accident I get compensated by insurance for the diminished value loss. And honestly if I don't feel comfortable witht he car after a wreck regardless of the repair quailty or value I will ditch it regardless of loss and replace it, but that is my choice to decide to eat any loss or not. Personally this is what led me to lease and flip cars, I treat them as rentals now and while I still take care of them I figure I have less exposure now then when I bought them and had to worry about selling them.

Kingmeow

Ah, that's a different story! An accident is something that has nothing to do with Acura. Either you goofed or someone goofed.

Let's say you bought a $3k 55" LCD TV. It died (through no fault of your own) on the 15th day, 1 day outside the BestBuy return policy. You call up Acme LCD and they say they will take care of you. They will come by and pick up the defective one and give you a REFURBISHED one after coming by your house 3 times to fix it with no sucess.

In scenario two, your kid was playing ball and cracked the screen. You called them up and Acme was nice enough to provide you with a REFURBISHED one for the price of shipping.

I think you will feel differently in those two situations. You would not be happy with the first but will be with the second. After all electronics do fail at times.

Remember, this is not a simple replacement. They will have to remove my seat, separate existing seam(s), reform it (them), re-weld, and repaint the disturbed area. All this in a less than 1 year old car where the problem reared itself 2 months into ownership and 3,500 miles. At that time, they didn't know it would come to this.

You say "...if it is not perfect don't accept it back." I've been there for 4 times now each time leaving my car for almost a week. If they fix it and it's not perfect, how many more times do I need to go back. And how do I know if it's perfect or not? The work is under the seat and although I'm an engineer I did not design or built this car so it's hard to say what is right or not.

Time is money and my work schedule is quite quite busy.

Kingmeow

A picture is worth a thousand words. The area is behind (for lack of a better word) the door jamb as it transitions to vertical. This is the rear passenger entry.

ostrich

Don't do it - it's too extensive work for a new car and it will affect your re-sale!!!

draph

Kingmeow, could you clarify your description of the symptom? Tapping like a pen on a formica top or clicking a mouse button but louder?

My rear squeak/rattle is like the clicking mouse button but louder.

The thing that concerns me about weld issues is that it seems like it could affect a fair number of vehicles. Aren't most automotive welds these days done by robots? In a case like that, it seems the root cause would have to trace back to bad software code, a bad jig that didn't provide a consistent fit/connection with the body on the automated weld part of the production line, a welder/robot out of calibration, or materials out of spec. However, quality control is supposed to have periodic checks along the production line to ensure bad stuff gets caught. Sometimes, though, bad decisions get made over whether an issue is significant enough to stop the line to perform reworks on what got through, and not start the line again until the root cause is fixed. An idle line costs a lot of money, too; and pressures (real or implied) are high to keep the line moving (despite assurances of kanban style empowerment).

Mass production involves a lot of "statistical process control" as well. It could be that a few of us with the rattles fall into the realm of the acceptable, as statistical outliers...lucky us.

If you really want to get cynical and worried, a worse case is that there were no issues whatsoever on the production line (everything built as designed), but a defective design that didn't get caught during pre-production testing. In mass production, saving money by not going overboard with number of welds makes sense.

I wouldn't be surprised that squeaks show up in pre-production life testing; but that testing is accelerated. When a squeak shows up after a real-time month and 150,000 "equivalent" miles of driving (ie, the test track - or apparatus - throws a lot more bumps, heaves, and twists than a typical owner trip has in a day), I believe it's still a guess whether it was the one month of aging or the 150,000 equivalent miles that caused it... In the case of bad design that leads to squeaks/rattles, it then becomes not a matter of "if", but "when" we will start hearing the noises.

KeithL

So this seam is supposedly casuing your rear deck nosie or you here this seam rubbing? My concern is the robots at the factory should make perfect welds and are very precise. Ahume will never be that precise, but it is in a hidden place. If you plan on keeping the car a long time then I woudl do it, one thing I woudl want from Acura is something in writing as to how long they will warranty this repair. The concern being this is structural and what happens if the weld lets go outside of warranty, I have to ebclei this is an expensive fix. I had a 1993 Mazda 626 that needed new reworked heads, they had some defect back then and I was pissed, I asked if Mazda woudl cover the warraty for an extended period since they were tearing the moter apart. At first they said no so I got pissed and sodl the car, ironically when my letter got high enough in Mazda I got a call offering to warranty that repair past the normal warranty period, I said thanks, but I got rid of the car already. I woudl keep pushing Acura and escalating voicing your concerns and get them to cover this repair for an extended period outside normal warranty.

jspagna1

I have been reading this thread for a few days and IMO I would get a friggin Lawyer if need be and tell Acura you want a new car. What is up with re-welding a seam in a new car. WRONG/WRONG/WRONG!

Kingmeow

draph,

Sorry, I reread what I wrote and what was I smoking? I meant to say like a pen hitting a formica counter top. If I had to pick a word, I would choose a "pop" over a "click". If you take one of those cheapie Bic ball point pen with the cap that hotels, etc. give away (not the kind where you have the press the top to get the point out), hold it about 1/2" over a formica desk or counter top. Now drop it. That's about the closest I can reproduce the sound using household itmes. You have to catch it on the way up as the pen bounces and you don't want to have a double "pop".

I would have to imagine that the car in front and in back of mine at the assembly line would have this problem also.

KeithL,

The seam is making the noise as verified by the dealer but due to the acoustics inside the cabin, it sounds like it's coming from the back passenger corner of the rear deck.

I already bought a 7/120k extended warranty when I first got the car and the dealer said that this work will be covered under that. Thing is 120k is nothing for an Acura/Honda. I got 150K on my Integra, 270K on my Maxima, and 200K on my wife's Accord. So what happens when the weld pops after 120K?

As an engineer I know that welds can go anytime. One bad pothole with one passenger sitting at the right position in the car with the right weight, etc, pop goes the weld!

I'm going to see where I go with the Lemon Law first. I fit EVERY criteria per NJ's version ol the law.

Kingmeow

Oops, your post snuck in. Yes, I'm going that route first as I have nothing to lose, other than time and I can wait it out if a lawyer is handling all the back and forth crap.

I already called one and gave them my initial info. They are just waiting for me to press the button.

http://www.lemonlaw.com

Only Lemon Law firm honored by the American Bar Association.

PenguinTL

I have the same mouse clicking noise, but it is LOUD and comes from the rear deck area! I sat in the back seat and it sounds like it's on the drivers side.

Kingmeow

What you can do is have someone drive the car and you sit back there and listen. OR vice versa if you don't want someone else driving your car.

What the dealer did the first time was to remove the rear seat altogether while the shop forman sat/stood in the rear and listened while someone else drived.

It is VERY deceiving on where the noise is coming from. At first, when I first heard it 10 months ago, I thought the front passenger seat belt was hitting the B pillar. After making sure that wasn't the case it still sound like something in the B pillar on the passenger side.

It's better now but before the fix, I can easily reproduce it by coming to an agressive (not hard) stop. Same when accelerating. It's as if the seam can take so much stress and then "pops" making the noise.

When you say it's LOUD, can the noise be drowned out by a loud radio? I must say that before they fixed it the first time, it was pretty loud, especially if the radio is not on and you have all the windows closed.

CCBBUUMM

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Kingmeow

Thanks for another data point CCBBUUMM.

So a friend of mine found this TSB. If only it applied to the TL though I'm sure mine is not at the jack points.

09-019

May 18, 2009

Applies To:
2009 TSX - ALL

Popping or Clicking from the Left or Right Rear Jack Point

SYMPTOM

There is a popping or clicking from the left or right rear of the
vehicle when driving over bumps or through dips.

PROBABLE CAUSE

As the body flexes, burrs from spot welds in the rear jacking points
contact other sheetmetal, causing a popping or clicking noise.

CORRECTIVE ACTION

Install a wedge between the sheetmetal panels (in the inner side sill) that make up the jack point.

REQUIRED MATERIALS

3M Super Weatherstrip and Gasket Adhesive:P/N 3M-08008
(One tube repairs about 20 vehicles.)

TOOL INFORMATION

Body Wedge Installation Kit: T/N 07AAD-TL2A140 (Includes wedge,
installation tool, and acid brush)

NOTE : This tool is available through the special tool loan program.
(Refer to Service Bulletin 98-051, Special Tool Loan Program.)

WARRANTY CLAIM INFORMATION

Kingmeow

Well, contacted an attorney and started a case. Let's see what happens. I don't think I have anything to lose and, in my opinion, this problem is not trivial nor frivolous.

I will you guys posted.

acuraTickingNoise

I started a new thread about ticking noise in my 2010 TL before I came across your posts. I now wonder if we are having the same problem. Link to my post:
https://acurazine.com/forums/4g-tl-2009-2014-123/2010-tl-ticking-noise-788949/.

-----------
2010 Acura TL SH-AWD

Kingmeow

I just read that and what you described sounds exactly like the noise that I hear. But what made it different is that you said it only happens when a person sits in the front passenger seat.

I know this can be deceiving but when it does happen, does your ear pick up the noise from that area? Or is to behind you?

acuraTickingNoise

The noise seems to come from behind front passenger seat, the area that is close to the rear door sill moulding, but it is really hard for me to pinpoint the location. Sometimes I even suspect it was from the rear door.

This is the quote from dealer service report:
"Noise is from right front seat-track tolerance - normal compared to other 2010 TL".

They sort of imply that all 2010 TL has this noise. The dealer had arranged for me to meet with manufacture representative this Friday and I will see what they have to say. I'll keep you posted.

Disbe

iTrader: (1)

Lemon law does apply here. You need to start a BBB complaint and since you have started working with an attorney, have them send a letter to the Acura Legal Correspondence Department and start the lemon law route.

I used to work for the legal dept for GM and handled the Northeast US and i see no reason why they should not buy this vehicle back under the lemon law guidelines.

Kingmeow

Thanks for another data point Disbe. The attorney will send the letter once I give them all the info. The process has started. I just want it to be fast, one way or another, so I can enjoy my car!!!!

mikechampion

Kingmeow, how is your lemon law pursuit going?
I haven't seen an update to this thread and i'm curious to see if this has been handled.
I have and 09 AWD Tech i bought new in Feb of 09 and have some minor noises, steering wheel, driver/passenger windows but not this weld issue.
Thanks to this forum i also had the area around all my rotors repainted as they were rusting. My dealership handled it with no problems so i might start to pursue some of these rattles.

Kingmeow

Well, I can't really get into much details only to say that the law firm took my case. I don't know what to make of it as I'm sure they won't take a case that they see as not winable in one form or another.

So far I'm just waiting. No updates other than "We're accepting yoru case. There will be no cost to you win or lose." Almost all lemon law cases work that way.

So whether I get a new car or some form of hush money remains to be seen. I've been told time of resolution can be anywhere from 3 to 18 months. I'm patient. Meanwhile, I just drive the car, annoyance and all!

ejbrandt

So are you driving the car or is it at the dealer?

Kingmeow

Driving it normally. I think if the case ends in my favor, the mileage of record will be the first time the problem occurred but I may be wrong.

nj2pa2nc

personally I would try to keep the mileage down since you are trying to prove it was a lemon. They would wonder if you thought it was so unsafe why are you still driving it. Just a thought. Good luck with your case.