winstrolvtec

Ok thanks, just think it is a good idea to see where people are coming from. As far as the TL sales, I know the numbers represent a 50% drop but should that mean we automatically associate all of it to the styling?

I'm not saying it has nothing to do with it or attempting to make little of it but I do think that is an exaggeration. Is there no "acceptable" percentage that accounts for the economic circumstances and differences especially when the 07-08 TL sold in the 50k's?

Then there is stuff like the increased TSX market share (V6), those who bought an Accord after, alienation of FWD buyers with the SH, disproportionate exterior growth, price increases, new and improved competition from other mid size FWD sedans such as the LaCrosse, ES, Maxima, ES, because TL sales are driven mostly by FWD trims, etc, etc.

I think it is a little too convenient to align this stuff to suite one's opinion on the matter, seems self serving. Just like the Acura 3.7 hybrid vs Hyundai's V8 RWD comments. Sure it fits if you leave it like that but consider the RL will likely still be competitive in all phases if not better and it won't need a RWD or V8 to do it, and if it's matching or exceeding performance and fuel economy, AWD is an added bonus because it's already overcome AWD's limitations at that point.

You can question their methods but you can question any brand's. I have no need for RWD or V8, wouldn't even want that but I don't think brands that emphasize that are headed in the wrong direction or doing something incorrect. That's their choice, I will buy what I need and fits me but still appreciate every brands interpretations and methods because that is what being an enthusiast is all about.

As far as the design methods, I think you may be right in some instances but then again the Civic, despite it's criticism, is still doing very well as did the last generation 5 series, among others. That's why we tend to harp on things like subjective qualities surrounding the vehicles and not necessarily having anything to do with it itself.

People will buy a Civic because of what it is and represents, not what it necessarily looks like or not much precedence put there, same went for the last 5 series. As bad as it may seem the TL was a great measuring stick for Acura, they learned their image and perception of them was not strong enough to pull that off. I think it is something that can actually benefit them going forward and they have made changes directly to that effect.

You may have owned or recommend Honda products but I am not talking about what your thoughts or views are, I am talking about defending or putting things into perspective regarding them as quickly as you do against them, big difference, kind of like the expression of putting your money where your mouth is.

You may defend the Mustang but that is because it's something you could see yourself owning and it was primarily being compared to an M3 in your example and I would imagine you debated over the 335is or M3 in your purchase of your 3 series. So I do not think it was very difficult for you to do that because it was petty self serving at the same time. I'm sure it helps justify the 335is over the M3. It's for that reason, I'm not sure the example is that legitimate.

Much like many of the members at Car Talk, just because Honda/Acura may not make a product that makes you personally want to run down to the dealer and get, doesn't mean you should crap on them or take an overly unobjective position on their cars or what they do.

The thing is I do not believe the TL is of much interest to you and your opinions don’t have to be so opinionated. The next time I witness you putting a BMW supporter into check regarding comments directed at an Acura, when it is warranted that is, and perhaps when you do not have a dog in the fight as well, I will more than give you the benefit of the doubt.

Hawaii-MDX

Agreed on both topics.

I myself have leased a few vehicles.

Hawaii-MDX

Very well said!

BEAR-AvHistory

That's all very interesting but is a long journey from what I originally posted about as the heart of the matter (the BS when a member gets a new car) so you either just want to avoid the issue or try to obfuscate it as best you can with subject changes & verbal diarrhea. You asked me earlier if I had read your whole post, I should have told you no because I am not going to wade through all the words to dig out important points.

Its nice that you checked the last two threads & the boys are behaving themselves. Do you think that’s because they got religion or because the moderator called them out on that’s not how Acurazine treats is members who get new cars?

I think the Acura decline has to do with the style & your results may differ but all the other cars we talk about have had to deal in the same market place. At the bottom of the market they did not fall as far as the 4G TL when it was released, they have recovered quicker & are now setting sales records while the TL sits after its MMC refresh at 34K units selling less then the more expensive 5 series sells by itself.

The 4G started low in the market, the market went bad & it stayed low, the market came back & it stayed low, the tsunami hit & it stayed low, competitors are having record years & its stayed low.

Regardless what was taking place in the car world up or down the TL stayed flat & never has even one good year since 09. How would you explain that?

As for the M3 I expect to be an early adopter when the next gen F series M3 turbo is released. Good performance at both ends of the spectrum. Most likely late next year.

HAWAII-TSX

[IMG][/IMG]

I Saw a post where someone quoted someone and that people don't believe we are two twins. I'm posting the pic to try to prove that we are in fact who we say we are. I don't know if I should feel bad that I have to try to prove this or feel bad for the person who is trying to discredit me because they are ignorant.

I hope this helps clear up the perception that we are not one person.

The ugly black slow selling ZDX is mine(HAWAII-TSX) The new MDX is my bro (HAWAII-MDX)

I am more sassy than my bro and Sorry to him that I always make people pre judge him to be like me because he is my twin. Try to treat us as individuals because being a twin we already have some identity issues. (hence the evil looking car and the nice looking car)

Like my bro I don't have perfect english and spelling sorry. Sorry if I act childish but we all kinda do sometimes right? Life would be boring if we all acted appropriately all the time.

FanaticFan

You know, to really strip it down for this forum: the 3 series is BMW's Civic. The 5 series is its Accord. The TL is an Accord. The TSX or now ILX is a Civic. The Lexus IS is a Civic; the ES, an Accord.

It's quite simple, really.

My '97 Prelude is a Civic, with fun added.

The Civic Mugen released one year is the closest Honda ever got to making a car that led me to say, ok, I can give up my old Fun-Civic for a newer one. Since then, nothing; and now I'll have to become rich enough to afford an NSX and the $3 million-dollar house with garage to put it in, as next stop, which I see as very unlikely, unless I discover a new, cheap, endless source of energy and patent it next year. Either that or some day, Honda makes an electric Prelude II, or more likely, I just give up that dream entirely. Reality is almost any current Civic puts my old one to shame, across the board, well except in styling.

Just to put it all in perspective.

g37guy01

[ot]
In a wierd sort of way I like the ZDX styling. In checking out the vehicle on Acuras website I was astounded the price for the ZDX advance was $57K.

Here's what edmunds says about it.
Pros

Luxurious interior; high-tech features
Cons

Cramped backseat; compromised cargo capacity; unimpressive power from V6

I'll assume the interior is flawless, since I haven't been in one. The comment about the unimpressive power caught my eye. For $57K, I would pony up some extra cash for an M3, even if I didn't have all of the goodies.

[/ot]

winstrolvtec

I wrote a lot of other stuff as well but if you want to focus on this, that’s fine but back to your original point and to sum up what “we” went over, I thought we came to some understanding that this “BS” was somewhat normal on all forums and then we went into how that didn't necessarily make this a religious cult by itself or at all and went over some examples where other fan dedicated sites might be worse.

Remember, it was a matter of jealousy or envy when a member got another car in the examples for here and we know those types of things exist at other forums and also in all phases of life vs other forum's members not actually taking the facts into consideration. Which lead to the point about which example makes a stronger case for being more of a religious cult-like fanboy base. I thought that was established, agreed or disagreed.

As far as the TL, I am going somewhere with this, I apologize if it’s taking time. Anyway, you're saying zero percentage is acceptable for economic circumstances because there was a breaking point where others recovered and the TL did not, sounds fair, except the TL faced other challenges at that time as well, in which some direct competition didn't have and if they did, it was not necessarily to the same extent.

Furthermore, some cars recovered and others didn't, many that did were brand new gen model releases. Somewhere on an entire industry basis there is still an acceptable decline rate, maybe not with a hand or cherry picked selection you may be using (more self serving info) but it is still there. I recall 30% being an acceptable industry average in the beginning of all of that, can't say exactly what that would be now, but perhaps half.

We agree that the MMC made for a much improved visually appealing product which just so happened to come out around the time of the auto recovery, except once again, the MMC did little to nothing to boost sales. Which could also point away from the styling at the same time. OTOH, the damage could have already been done, first impressions and what not, where I agree that is possible but so are many other things that have nothing to do with styling.

So then we also have to consider low MMC inventory levels and therefore little to no dealing, which I am sure you recall from a few months ago all the way to a full year back, as a result of the natural disasters. Coincidentally, we saw a spike in Jan with evidence pointing to inventory levels finally picking up and there were competitive types of incentives on the table as well. Lots of ways that this can be sliced.

The thing is, I am not claiming to have the actual answers or that I have deciphered what from what or that it is even possible to do so, and frankly, I could really care less about the number of units nor is it the focus of my point, it's more of an example. The issue is, you make a statement that 50% of the people no longer buy the car because of the styling, which is all of the decline (100%) compared to the 3G, when it’s not actually the same model or gen car where you could make that type of generalization as easily, so we know that is factually impossible (by the numbers) considering only one other circumstance to the TL's decline, where there is no less or worse evidence present compared to evidence that it was all the styling.

Then you label the forum and the members here as a religious fanboy cult or what have you because you choose to exaggerate or stretch those types of statements and you get certain types of responses from members here. I do not believe this would be the case if you were approaching it in a more objective way and IMO, the forum would have a lot more tolerance for everybody as opposed to only Acura or TL owners.

The other thing is, (and this goes for everyone as something to think about, myself included) if one is not fully aware of how they come off and approach the forum, topics, and members, and maybe don't know or realize exactly where they are coming from themselves, how can one attempt to label other members and the forum as blind loyal enthusiasts, or otherwise? Could it be a possibility that most of the members are on the moderate side of the spectrum as opposed to biased and it might be you leaning in the anti direction?

winstrolvtec

That's one way of looking at it, another would be at least an additional $10k added to the $57k for a comparable X6. As for power, not sure how warranted that statement is, it's in line with what it directly competes with and is faster than an MDX for comparison.

Of course one probably shouldn't consider buying it on the sole basis that is attractive to them, that's a lot of coin for only that reason when there are so many other options. It's probably more along the lines of something for one who wants a high end SUV but with less utility, more sport.

HAWAII-TSX

sorry yes ot

I like the interior. Leather dash.

I thought about both the x6 and m3 when purchasing the zdx. Infact my older brother got a used 2011 m3 4dr before I bought my zdx for the same price as I paid for the zdx so he said the same thing(I could have bought a used m3). I could have infact bought my other brothers 08 blk m3 convertible manual trans. when the lease was done but it was base model and had no bluetooth and stereo was not good.

here's how i broke down my decision=

M3
pros= fast, top notch handling, status

neg= two of my brothers and one good friend has one or had one, size still less usable then zdx, reliability, all the electronic features, stiff ride, I don't like my bmw dealer and service department more expensive with the features I wanted, older design (get dated quicker)

x6
pros= slightly faster than zdx(when compared to 6 cyl), status, engine note.

neg= choppy ride, reliability, my bro who drives the m3 traded in a 09 x6 for it. three of my friends have had them(all three sold them or traded them in cause they werent happy with them). stereo not that good, MPG, not as many features, I dont like my bmw dealer service, more expensive with features i wanted.

ZDX
pros= unique, panorama moon roof, reliability, stereo, interior design, sh-awd, I like my acura dealer ship and service department, adjustable suspension, smooth or sporty ride, most features, value.

neg= power, backseat, status not as good, love it or hate it design, resale value.

after owning things i wish it had = power folding mirrors, rain sensor(had it installed by raintracker) voice text messaging, more power, better mpg, harder tougher leather.

FanaticFan

I loved the ZDX as a cool concept. When I went to look at one, though, it was just confusing; bigger than a car but more cramped inside. Higher CG so why put performance features in? The vehicle just seems at crosspurposes with itself. Kind of astonishing as the idea of it seemed spot on.

scrapface

Great point! Personally, it drives me nuts when car magazine writers complain about "busy dashboards, too many buttons, or confusing layouts". These writers spend 1-2 days with these cars during a comparison test. All the writers want simplistic layouts for all buttons.

I keep my cars for at least a couple years. I don't mind taking a little bit of time to figure out all of the "cluttered buttons". I like having all the buttons once I figure out there use.

It seems like every car there review, they always look for super simple, "big knobs - less buttons" on the interior. The writers always write from there own perspective. These guys are always driving different cars loaned to the magazine, switching vehicles every few days. They don't take the time to learn the buttons. They switch cars a couple times a week.

Most of us keep a car for a while, we learn the layout, and then like the set up. Why doesn't a writer ever give a real long term review in a real owners perspective? Even their "long term reviews" are cars they have in their fleet for about one year, but shared by different drivers every week.

BEAR-AvHistory

Lots of people like "busy" panels the question is how many do for a DD. Buick looks like it might have copied the TL's dash & it along with the TL is a top seller in China.



Most of the European cars are pretty simple in design so there are really two schools of thought on panel design. Be interesting to see if Honda ever did a product development survey on the TL's buttons & what the next gen will bring.

Mr Marco

6 pages, comments from a couple of ZDX owners and a cockpit shot.
Hmm, wonder why Acura doesn't make it in the comparos????