Car and Driver-May 2012 comparison
04-09-2012, 11:04 PM
#81
Danny, it seems that every technology that allow active torque transfer is called Torque Vectoring these days.
The Haldex XWD system is defined as Torque Vectoring as well by Haldex itself
http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/ma...ocid=144988965
We can later digress what is "pure" torque vectoring and what is not.
The ZF cutaway differentials i posted are basically identical af functioning principle to the Active M differential (BMW may ditch the ZF vector diff on its X SUV and go with its own Active M)
The Haldex XWD system is defined as Torque Vectoring as well by Haldex itself
http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/ma...ocid=144988965
We can later digress what is "pure" torque vectoring and what is not.
The ZF cutaway differentials i posted are basically identical af functioning principle to the Active M differential (BMW may ditch the ZF vector diff on its X SUV and go with its own Active M)
04-10-2012, 12:07 AM
#82
the ZF vector drive diffs are nothing like the M active diff. The M Active diff is just like the eLSD component of Haldex XWD.
IMO, a simple test of a torque vectoring diff :
Can the diff produce left/right yaw torque while driving straight ahead?
an eLSD cannot, but SH-AWD, ZF Vector drive, mitsubishi AYC and S-AYC all can.
These named torque vectoring solutions can also, independtly of power setting, produce either proverse or adverse yaw (yaw into or out of the turn) at will, an eLSD produces one or the other depending on power setting (and a brief period of neither through the crossover threshold).
Saturno, we live in an age of 3D toothpaste and HD sunglasses, any company that can try to get a little shine to rub off from the latest trend absolutely will do so. Look at all the people who think the RDX's turbo engine is direct injected because Acura calls it a "direct ignition" engine, referring to the coil-on-plug spark ignition? You think they did that on accident, when direct injection was coming into vogue and being heavily advertised by competitors?
Suddently stability control was called torque vectoring by audi and porsche because they were using the brakes to turn the car? the list goes on and on!
IMO, a simple test of a torque vectoring diff :
Can the diff produce left/right yaw torque while driving straight ahead?
an eLSD cannot, but SH-AWD, ZF Vector drive, mitsubishi AYC and S-AYC all can.
These named torque vectoring solutions can also, independtly of power setting, produce either proverse or adverse yaw (yaw into or out of the turn) at will, an eLSD produces one or the other depending on power setting (and a brief period of neither through the crossover threshold).
Saturno, we live in an age of 3D toothpaste and HD sunglasses, any company that can try to get a little shine to rub off from the latest trend absolutely will do so. Look at all the people who think the RDX's turbo engine is direct injected because Acura calls it a "direct ignition" engine, referring to the coil-on-plug spark ignition? You think they did that on accident, when direct injection was coming into vogue and being heavily advertised by competitors?
Suddently stability control was called torque vectoring by audi and porsche because they were using the brakes to turn the car? the list goes on and on!
04-10-2012, 12:51 AM
#83
It's crazy, passive power transfers are marketed as "active" and active power transfers are marketed as "vectoring". If this was really the case then all a car would need is abs to have active transfers and torque vectoring. Another reason why Acura gets little respect for SH-AWD. As long as it is agreeable to them, it appears people simply believe whatever they are told regardless of whether it is even true or not.
04-10-2012, 12:54 AM
#84
the ZF vector drive diffs are nothing like the M active diff. The M Active diff is just like the eLSD component of Haldex XWD.
IMO, a simple test of a torque vectoring diff :
Can the diff produce left/right yaw torque while driving straight ahead?
an eLSD cannot, but SH-AWD, ZF Vector drive, mitsubishi AYC and S-AYC all can.
These named torque vectoring solutions can also, independtly of power setting, produce either proverse or adverse yaw (yaw into or out of the turn) at will, an eLSD produces one or the other depending on power setting (and a brief period of neither through the crossover threshold).
Saturno, we live in an age of 3D toothpaste and HD sunglasses, any company that can try to get a little shine to rub off from the latest trend absolutely will do so. Look at all the people who think the RDX's turbo engine is direct injected because Acura calls it a "direct ignition" engine, referring to the coil-on-plug spark ignition? You think they did that on accident, when direct injection was coming into vogue and being heavily advertised by competitors?
Suddently stability control was called torque vectoring by audi and porsche because they were using the brakes to turn the car? the list goes on and on!
IMO, a simple test of a torque vectoring diff :
Can the diff produce left/right yaw torque while driving straight ahead?
an eLSD cannot, but SH-AWD, ZF Vector drive, mitsubishi AYC and S-AYC all can.
These named torque vectoring solutions can also, independtly of power setting, produce either proverse or adverse yaw (yaw into or out of the turn) at will, an eLSD produces one or the other depending on power setting (and a brief period of neither through the crossover threshold).
Saturno, we live in an age of 3D toothpaste and HD sunglasses, any company that can try to get a little shine to rub off from the latest trend absolutely will do so. Look at all the people who think the RDX's turbo engine is direct injected because Acura calls it a "direct ignition" engine, referring to the coil-on-plug spark ignition? You think they did that on accident, when direct injection was coming into vogue and being heavily advertised by competitors?
Suddently stability control was called torque vectoring by audi and porsche because they were using the brakes to turn the car? the list goes on and on!
I totally agree on the absurdity of Audi calling a simple brake steering "Torque Vectoring".
04-10-2012, 02:34 AM
#85
6G TLX-S
have not found a detailed enough technical description of the Active M diff to evaluate if it can...and why you want create left/rigth yaw torque while driving straight anyway??
I totally agree on the absurdity of Audi calling a simple brake steering "Torque Vectoring".
I totally agree on the absurdity of Audi calling a simple brake steering "Torque Vectoring".
04-10-2012, 04:05 AM
#87
Racer
Thread Starter
Agree, BMW’s are a dime a dozen around here too. So are Audi’s & MB’s. That is because people want to buy them. The TL, who's 3G used to be a nickel a dozen here, is a sales failure because people don’t want to buy them even if they cost less. Again I think it was not in the test because its an old model & does not sell well. If there was a Honda in the test I would have liked to see the Acura V6 TSX Sport for $42K
The issue real is will Honda develop a product that all us dummies who have BMW’s et all will consider owning. What is interesting is how we all went from the second smartest people in the room (Prius are the smartest) when we had TL’s to a group of stupid's went we moved to Audi, Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Hyundai/Kia.
Regardless of the technology, SH-AWD taken from an SUV, was Honda's attempt for make what is still a nose heavy FWD car handle like a rear wheel drive. They did an excellent job technically but the general population still thinks of it as a FWD because most of them are. This is a marketing problem for Honda because people associate RWD with premium cars for the simple reason that premium cars have RWD.
Back to the point about the test. The object of the test is not to test cars but sell magazines & a BMW test on the cover sells magazines. As far as I know, going by the “Backfires” column no comparo test has ever pleased everybody. Will be interesting to see what is sent in by the readers about this one. You might want to send them a email to make your thoughts known.
Your results may vary.
I honestly went from a 01 tl to a 04 tsx to 05 bmw 525 to 07 bmw 550 to 08 bmw x5 and back to acura with 2010 tl to honestly the best car for me 2010 zdx advance So I guess im living proof of Acura getting people back from german. I got tired of my car being in the shop all the time with no loaner. The rides were bumpy and everyone had a car that looked like mine. and honestly my zdx sh-awd is way better in the rain than all of my rwd bmws. they would always pull off the accelerator in a turn vs my zdx pushing all the way thru. Plus BMW has shitty stereos. even with logic 7 option. Im honestly happier with my acura and I plan on getting the nsx when it comes out.
Honestly im loosing interest on this topic and I got my point across that this article could have been done better.
take care bro enjoy your bmw and thx for the debate.
04-10-2012, 07:49 AM
#88
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So you're assuming that means there is more of an issue with the car than there was with the estimate. There's a reasons why those are only projections. I suppose by that logic if they said they were hoping to sell only 20k units, it should be considered a hit.
You do know the 07-08 TL only sold units in 50k's when the ball start rolling and shortly after at the 4G intro, the auto industry melted. I would assume something around that mark and maybe a little less (say 45k) would still indicate it was doing good but I agree that somethings are off in comparison as it comes in around 10k or so units less than that which gets divided up among all of the areas and factors I went over. Suggesting it is a failure is a bit strong, the RL sales excluding the first two years is an example of a failure IMO.
Obviously not what you want in any business but other than the styling controversy, it doesn't necessarily mean all of those other factors are knocks purely against the car itself or somehow it's bad or worse than. Just as there are elements that have little or nothing to do with a car that can really help out, there are those that can also hurt.
You do know the 07-08 TL only sold units in 50k's when the ball start rolling and shortly after at the 4G intro, the auto industry melted. I would assume something around that mark and maybe a little less (say 45k) would still indicate it was doing good but I agree that somethings are off in comparison as it comes in around 10k or so units less than that which gets divided up among all of the areas and factors I went over. Suggesting it is a failure is a bit strong, the RL sales excluding the first two years is an example of a failure IMO.
Obviously not what you want in any business but other than the styling controversy, it doesn't necessarily mean all of those other factors are knocks purely against the car itself or somehow it's bad or worse than. Just as there are elements that have little or nothing to do with a car that can really help out, there are those that can also hurt.
Honda has a production base (fixed cost) to assemble 80K Acura TL units based on prior builds. The manufacturing staff they can cut but there is not much they can do about the unused plant capacity.
Based on their “projections” they were geared up for the 4G to replace the 3G, which was at the end of its product life cycle, as the volume leader in their market segment not to lose 50% of their unit sales so yes I would consider it a failure.
Things are not getting better with age. March has always been the best month for the TL & the past two years they sold 3900 odd units. This year it was 2900.
I am also sure that the CEO is not a happy camper after going public with the 80K number & stating they were taking on the Tier 1 producers head on. Be interesting to ask him what he thinks about a pass/fail grade for the car.
I don’t have any idea what you do for a living but if my Product Management & Product Development people had spend maybe $100 million for new tooling, dies, assembly line robot programming etc. for a build rate of 80K units & after X years including an early mid cycle refresh were still only managing 34/35K units their collective butts would be wrapped in pink slips.
Add in the additional expense of developing the ZDX, less then 200 sold this year, I would send in the lawyers to deny their unemployment claims because of gross malfeasance.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 04-10-2012 at 08:03 AM.
04-10-2012, 08:10 AM
#89
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Lost the edit
EDIT: compared to 9800 for the 3 series in March up from 8500 the prior year.
EDIT: compared to 9800 for the 3 series in March up from 8500 the prior year.
04-10-2012, 10:58 AM
#90
Bottom line no matter how you try to spin it is the car has not sold anywhere near expectations while other brands they targeted to compete against are showing growth.
Honda has a production base (fixed cost) to assemble 80K Acura TL units based on prior builds. The manufacturing staff they can cut but there is not much they can do about the unused plant capacity.
Based on their “projections” they were geared up for the 4G to replace the 3G, which was at the end of its product life cycle, as the volume leader in their market segment not to lose 50% of their unit sales so yes I would consider it a failure.
Things are not getting better with age. March has always been the best month for the TL & the past two years they sold 3900 odd units. This year it was 2900.
I am also sure that the CEO is not a happy camper after going public with the 80K number & stating they were taking on the Tier 1 producers head on. Be interesting to ask him what he thinks about a pass/fail grade for the car.
I don’t have any idea what you do for a living but if my Product Management & Product Development people had spend maybe $100 million for new tooling, dies, assembly line robot programming etc. for a build rate of 80K units & after X years including an early mid cycle refresh were still only managing 34/35K units their collective butts would be wrapped in pink slips.
Add in the additional expense of developing the ZDX, less then 200 sold this year, I would send in the lawyers to deny their unemployment claims because of gross malfeasance.
Honda has a production base (fixed cost) to assemble 80K Acura TL units based on prior builds. The manufacturing staff they can cut but there is not much they can do about the unused plant capacity.
Based on their “projections” they were geared up for the 4G to replace the 3G, which was at the end of its product life cycle, as the volume leader in their market segment not to lose 50% of their unit sales so yes I would consider it a failure.
Things are not getting better with age. March has always been the best month for the TL & the past two years they sold 3900 odd units. This year it was 2900.
I am also sure that the CEO is not a happy camper after going public with the 80K number & stating they were taking on the Tier 1 producers head on. Be interesting to ask him what he thinks about a pass/fail grade for the car.
I don’t have any idea what you do for a living but if my Product Management & Product Development people had spend maybe $100 million for new tooling, dies, assembly line robot programming etc. for a build rate of 80K units & after X years including an early mid cycle refresh were still only managing 34/35K units their collective butts would be wrapped in pink slips.
Add in the additional expense of developing the ZDX, less then 200 sold this year, I would send in the lawyers to deny their unemployment claims because of gross malfeasance.
.....but for the people that actually like the TL it is a fantastic sport sedan for the money bar none....not even the "style haters" can deny that....
It is a car, especially in its SH-AWD form, that can go head on against rivals costing several thousands more in terms of performance and refinement.....
Have you driven one, especially manual???
04-10-2012, 11:49 AM
#91
@Bear-I won't necessarily disagree that somewhere in there the term failure is warranted, so that's not what I'm saying but I think it can be spread around as opposed to just put all on the car itself. Perhaps the vehicle should have never been projected to sell more than the 3G at a time when it was virtually impossible to do that volume in that segment, that's common sense.
I see the failure as being more on the management and planning for the lack of anticipated sales or drop compared to the previous model especially with the economic climate. Even if the car was a massive hit just like the 3G, it still would not have hit those numbers today, by today's standards.
You can probably count on two fingers cars in the luxury segments that hit 70k-80k units today, which is a lot better than previous years, namely 08-09. Someone or some people either got lazy or were overly confident, maybe it was just plain incompetence. That's not to say the vehicle does not share in it but the expectations were not very realistic to begin with and now we want to put ALL of the blame on the car and that is not 100% correct.
I'm not really trying to spin anything any different than it is but the context is important. Take the A4 which as a whole has been very close to the TL in terms of sales over the last few years but because of where the A4 was coming from, it's considered a moderate success, the TL does the same exact thing but because of the 3G, it's a disaster.
In the strict aspects of just the vehicles themselves, that makes no sense. The measuring stick is also the actual market, not what the 3G did. The 3G success was unfounded, not something you see everyday for that type of car in that segment. Again, there is failure but it comes from product planning and development, etc, more than it does the car, as you can see.
And you can't say the TL has not sold to expectation while other brands are showing growth. The TL is the car, not the brand. Acura is the brand. You compare cars to cars and brands to brands. You have done that twice, if anything that is a spin.
The 3 series is a new model gen, even the 4G spiked at it's intro, that's a bad example but I get what you are trying to say nonetheless. So in short, it would seem, the entire 4G project could be considered a failure based on projections and the 3G but just based on the market, it's on the low side of moderately successful. I just think it is important to note the distinctions.
I see the failure as being more on the management and planning for the lack of anticipated sales or drop compared to the previous model especially with the economic climate. Even if the car was a massive hit just like the 3G, it still would not have hit those numbers today, by today's standards.
You can probably count on two fingers cars in the luxury segments that hit 70k-80k units today, which is a lot better than previous years, namely 08-09. Someone or some people either got lazy or were overly confident, maybe it was just plain incompetence. That's not to say the vehicle does not share in it but the expectations were not very realistic to begin with and now we want to put ALL of the blame on the car and that is not 100% correct.
I'm not really trying to spin anything any different than it is but the context is important. Take the A4 which as a whole has been very close to the TL in terms of sales over the last few years but because of where the A4 was coming from, it's considered a moderate success, the TL does the same exact thing but because of the 3G, it's a disaster.
In the strict aspects of just the vehicles themselves, that makes no sense. The measuring stick is also the actual market, not what the 3G did. The 3G success was unfounded, not something you see everyday for that type of car in that segment. Again, there is failure but it comes from product planning and development, etc, more than it does the car, as you can see.
And you can't say the TL has not sold to expectation while other brands are showing growth. The TL is the car, not the brand. Acura is the brand. You compare cars to cars and brands to brands. You have done that twice, if anything that is a spin.
The 3 series is a new model gen, even the 4G spiked at it's intro, that's a bad example but I get what you are trying to say nonetheless. So in short, it would seem, the entire 4G project could be considered a failure based on projections and the 3G but just based on the market, it's on the low side of moderately successful. I just think it is important to note the distinctions.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 04-10-2012 at 11:52 AM.
04-10-2012, 08:32 PM
#92
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Yep, My BMW store is also my Acura store. Got an invite back when the 6MT was introduced since I had a 3G 6MT at the time.
It was nice but not the seat of the pants performance jump, after all the hype with the prototype had raised expectations, I would have looked for compared to my 3G 6MT. It still had the weird clutch throttle mismatch that the 3G has. Except for the 3rd gear issue I always thought the gearbox was excellent.
As for the SH AWD I did not feel it did much in real life normal driving. Made the car feel less nose heavy & more balanced but I don't think a street driver could use it to advantage against a naturally balanced car.
It seems even though people on the forum are pushing SH AWD as a major performance aid people are buying it as a normal 4X4 add-on. Here there are two Acura dealers who are also the two BMW dealers & they are only stocking 7 SH AWD cars (2-5) between them.
Performance BMW/Acura also sell Porsche & Lieth BMW/Acura sells Roll Royce in addition to MB, Audi & so on so they are not discount outlets selling only stripped Acura's.....their inventory represents what people are buying. I expect in colder or possibly wetter climes that the mix of 4X4 to 2X4 in inventory will increase.
Overall as I have said before the styling, size, lack of power killed it for me.
It was nice but not the seat of the pants performance jump, after all the hype with the prototype had raised expectations, I would have looked for compared to my 3G 6MT. It still had the weird clutch throttle mismatch that the 3G has. Except for the 3rd gear issue I always thought the gearbox was excellent.
As for the SH AWD I did not feel it did much in real life normal driving. Made the car feel less nose heavy & more balanced but I don't think a street driver could use it to advantage against a naturally balanced car.
It seems even though people on the forum are pushing SH AWD as a major performance aid people are buying it as a normal 4X4 add-on. Here there are two Acura dealers who are also the two BMW dealers & they are only stocking 7 SH AWD cars (2-5) between them.
Performance BMW/Acura also sell Porsche & Lieth BMW/Acura sells Roll Royce in addition to MB, Audi & so on so they are not discount outlets selling only stripped Acura's.....their inventory represents what people are buying. I expect in colder or possibly wetter climes that the mix of 4X4 to 2X4 in inventory will increase.
Overall as I have said before the styling, size, lack of power killed it for me.
04-10-2012, 08:42 PM
#93
Overall as I have said before the styling, size, lack of power killed it for me.
Size was never an issue for me, I wanted a midsize sedan and I was coming from a midsize sedan.....it is about right but if the potential buyer target/mindset is the 3 Series, yes it is big....power and performance (at least in manual form) is aligned with the competitors in the same size class...
Last edited by saturno_v; 04-10-2012 at 08:47 PM.
04-11-2012, 06:31 PM
#94
Racer
Thread Starter
stop feeding the old trolls let them go Hahaha. Its not Worth the electricity to run the computer.
Or go to bimmerfest and criticize vinyl seats, reliability and shitty stereos. And talk about ugly grand terismo 5 series, last gen 5 series common Bmw has had there problems.. I don't think as many BMWs' are even recommended by consumer reports. Most especially the turbo variants have much worse than avg reliability. Now even the 328 won't be recommended cause I'm sure it will have the same mechanical issues.
If Acura didn't worry about reliability of there products they could produce more power output. They just don't want to compromise their reputation and integrity of their name.
Or go to bimmerfest and criticize vinyl seats, reliability and shitty stereos. And talk about ugly grand terismo 5 series, last gen 5 series common Bmw has had there problems.. I don't think as many BMWs' are even recommended by consumer reports. Most especially the turbo variants have much worse than avg reliability. Now even the 328 won't be recommended cause I'm sure it will have the same mechanical issues.
If Acura didn't worry about reliability of there products they could produce more power output. They just don't want to compromise their reputation and integrity of their name.
04-11-2012, 08:30 PM
#95
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https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...nsumer+reports
04-11-2012, 09:41 PM
#96
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The TL is a hard car to group for a comparo though, the FWD fits well with the distinct group of entry level FWD mids like the Maxima, ES, LaCrosse, etc. The TL SH not so much. I don't have a problem with them putting the car next to a 335i, G37, or S4 all of the time, even though it's not a fundamental alignment nor are the base price points aligned with exception to the G, but the only thing that comparo has going for it is the perceived level of luxury and that they are sedans.
04-11-2012, 10:13 PM
#97
Racer
Thread Starter
The old troll says you might want to read Acurzine 4G about that.
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...nsumer+reports
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...nsumer+reports
plus more acuras are recommended than bmw too. The company as a whole rates better for reliability than bmw.
Do you really want to debate reliability between BMW and Acura???
04-12-2012, 12:06 AM
#98
why doesn't CR recommend the TL SH-AWD? maybe it's because it is a "new model" and CR doesn't recommend those? (SH-AWD being a separate model)
I've yet to read of any really pervasive problems. once in a great while I hear about driveshaft bearings, 3rd gear synchros in MT models.
I'm not a CR subscriber, do they have anything to say beyond their ratings (which I don't know) and that it isn't recommended?
I've yet to read of any really pervasive problems. once in a great while I hear about driveshaft bearings, 3rd gear synchros in MT models.
I'm not a CR subscriber, do they have anything to say beyond their ratings (which I don't know) and that it isn't recommended?
04-12-2012, 08:25 AM
#99
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Its documented in the 3G threads that my 2006 6MT had a dead tail light after 3 weeks, whole unit replaced under warranty. recall for window wiper motor, replaced no charge, recall for power steering issue, replaced no charge. TSB on 6 MT third gear 25K miles. Transmission rebuilt third gear & reverse gear replaced. Good will no charge. DVD section of the entertainment section failed, 50K warranty used up not fixed car sold at about 60K+ miles for $18.5K.
2004 BMW 330Ci 6MT ZHP. Currently 105,000 miles. 4 O2 sensors replaced by me at 80K miles $400 in parts. Plugs changed my me along with leaking valve cover gasket 90K miles for $125. PVC valve failed 75K miles replaced by me forgot $?.
2010 X3 & 2011 335is no issues still under warranty.
Ford Expedition 65,000 miles. Passenger seat heat failed seat, air conditioner still works, will look at it in the fall.
Yamaha V-Star Classic broke throttle cable last saturday...waiting for part.
Xterra 70K miles no issues.
Best of all. Ranger 4X4 pickup 14 years old. First parts replacements last summer. A/C compressor replaced by me $105 + system flush & refrigerant. 4X4 transfer case motor replaced by me $90.
Despite all the gnashing of teeth about how unreliable cars are I can honestly say the only dog I ever had was my first car a 1957 Ford Fairlane 500 convertible bought second hand in 1959.
Was the last second had car I ever bought except for my 1967 Stingray Coupe that I got from my brother in law & had worked on since new. Replaced the Ford with a Chevy 409/409 4MT in 1962.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 04-12-2012 at 08:33 AM.
04-12-2012, 03:30 PM
#100
I don't know where to put this thread and hopefully I put it in the right spot.
I am reading the article on the bmw 328 Audi A4 Infiniti G25 Mercedes C250 and Volvo s60 T6 AWD and am upset that they didn't put the TL SH-AWD with 6 spd manual in this comparison. I think it would have done pretty well. Just wanted to know if anyone else read this article and felt the same way. I feel it stood a chance at winning. Magazines never give Acura the credit it deserves. The fact that they didn't have any Acura in this comparo is slap in the face. I'm thinking about canceling my subscription based on this article.
Maybe I'm just sensitive.
I am reading the article on the bmw 328 Audi A4 Infiniti G25 Mercedes C250 and Volvo s60 T6 AWD and am upset that they didn't put the TL SH-AWD with 6 spd manual in this comparison. I think it would have done pretty well. Just wanted to know if anyone else read this article and felt the same way. I feel it stood a chance at winning. Magazines never give Acura the credit it deserves. The fact that they didn't have any Acura in this comparo is slap in the face. I'm thinking about canceling my subscription based on this article.
Maybe I'm just sensitive.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html
When you read it, you'll see they give a good explanation on the higher priced BMW in the comparo.
In that Comparo they have the TSX V-6 which should have a huge advantage being Acura produced that vehicle to compete with the 335.
A lot of manufactuers are producing small turbo four's now days and claiming V6 power with 4cylinder economy. In the Comparo you provided, all of the vehicles are basically base models except for the Volvo (Which technically should have a huge advantage). "Bear-Av" already pointed out that the BMW actually had a disadvantage being it was fully loaded as it actually lost more points overall compared to a few other models. If you read the Motor trend comparo i provided they even say that if it was the base model it still would have won. You appear to be hung up on the value of the BMW yet the majority of the vehicles tested dont appear to be all bare bone models either.
Personally im surprised that yourself and few others wanted the 4G 6MT model in this comparison. Thats a HUGE pat on the back for BMW being you want the best performing vehicle Acura currently has to offer against a base 3 series. The TL 6MT was basically designed by Acura to compete against the S4, 335, etc etc and although the outcome is usually not in favor of the 6MT in those comparo's either, It should obviously be at the top if it was in this comparo......the 6AT though might be a different story.
04-12-2012, 05:17 PM
#101
I don't know where to put this thread and hopefully I put it in the right spot.
I am reading the article on the bmw 328 Audi A4 Infiniti G25 Mercedes C250 and Volvo s60 T6 AWD and am upset that they didn't put the TL SH-AWD with 6 spd manual in this comparison. I think it would have done pretty well. Just wanted to know if anyone else read this article and felt the same way. I feel it stood a chance at winning. Magazines never give Acura the credit it deserves. The fact that they didn't have any Acura in this comparo is slap in the face. I'm thinking about canceling my subscription based on this article.
Maybe I'm just sensitive.
I am reading the article on the bmw 328 Audi A4 Infiniti G25 Mercedes C250 and Volvo s60 T6 AWD and am upset that they didn't put the TL SH-AWD with 6 spd manual in this comparison. I think it would have done pretty well. Just wanted to know if anyone else read this article and felt the same way. I feel it stood a chance at winning. Magazines never give Acura the credit it deserves. The fact that they didn't have any Acura in this comparo is slap in the face. I'm thinking about canceling my subscription based on this article.
Maybe I'm just sensitive.
Nobody can win a magazine context with a BMW...period.....make your own judgement.
This comparo on MT at least is more objective (minus the BMW buttlicking language)
The G is at the end of the run, the Buick Regal is what it is, a dressed up econobox, the TSX (as the IS 250) is long in the tooth also and with 3 less cogs in the powertrain than the Bimmer.
Furthermore, a twin scroll turbocharger engine is the new "must have" ...I love turbocharger engines myself, the low end grunt is very very nice to have.
Also, a FWD will never win a context like this in the specialized press.
After all, old cars fighting the new kid on the block...and from BMW....impossible battle......
I woudl have pick myself the 328 among these competitors.....however I would have spent the 50 grand for this 328 somewhere else....
04-12-2012, 06:50 PM
#102
Burning Brakes
The TL SH-AWD (auto) already lost a comparison on C&D with a E90 328...nothing new here.
Nobody can win a magazine context with a BMW...period.....make your own judgement.
This comparo on MT at least is more objective (minus the BMW buttlicking language)
The G is at the end of the run, the Buick Regal is what it is, a dressed up econobox, the TSX (as the IS 250) is long in the tooth also and with 3 less cogs in the powertrain than the Bimmer.
Furthermore, a twin scroll turbocharger engine is the new "must have" ...I love turbocharger engines myself, the low end grunt is very very nice to have.
Also, a FWD will never win a context like this in the specialized press.
After all, old cars fighting the new kid on the block...and from BMW....impossible battle......
I woudl have pick myself the 328 among these competitors.....however I would have spent the 50 grand for this 328 somewhere else....
Nobody can win a magazine context with a BMW...period.....make your own judgement.
This comparo on MT at least is more objective (minus the BMW buttlicking language)
The G is at the end of the run, the Buick Regal is what it is, a dressed up econobox, the TSX (as the IS 250) is long in the tooth also and with 3 less cogs in the powertrain than the Bimmer.
Furthermore, a twin scroll turbocharger engine is the new "must have" ...I love turbocharger engines myself, the low end grunt is very very nice to have.
Also, a FWD will never win a context like this in the specialized press.
After all, old cars fighting the new kid on the block...and from BMW....impossible battle......
I woudl have pick myself the 328 among these competitors.....however I would have spent the 50 grand for this 328 somewhere else....
04-12-2012, 09:12 PM
#103
The current TL is in mid cycle....
? 
?
04-12-2012, 09:27 PM
#105
04-13-2012, 07:28 PM
#106
Racer
Thread Starter
I noticed several people here have asked if you have read the Motor Trend comparo just recently done. Here it is and im also curious on what your opinion is on it also.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html
When you read it, you'll see they give a good explanation on the higher priced BMW in the comparo.
In that Comparo they have the TSX V-6 which should have a huge advantage being Acura produced that vehicle to compete with the 335.
A lot of manufactures are producing small turbo four's now days and claiming V6 power with cylinder economy. In the Comparo you provided, all of the vehicles are basically base models except for the Volvo (Which technically should have a huge advantage). "Bear-Av" already pointed out that the BMW actually had a disadvantage being it was fully loaded as it actually lost more points overall compared to a few other models. If you read the Motor trend comparo i provided they even say that if it was the base model it still would have won. You appear to be hung up on the value of the BMW yet the majority of the vehicles tested dont appear to be all bare bone models either.
Personally im surprised that yourself and few others wanted the 4G 6MT model in this comparison. Thats a HUGE pat on the back for BMW being you want the best performing vehicle Acura currently has to offer against a base 3 series. The TL 6MT was basically designed by Acura to compete against the S4, 335, etc etc and although the outcome is usually not in favor of the 6MT in those comparo's either, It should obviously be at the top if it was in this comparo......the 6AT though might be a different story.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html
When you read it, you'll see they give a good explanation on the higher priced BMW in the comparo.
In that Comparo they have the TSX V-6 which should have a huge advantage being Acura produced that vehicle to compete with the 335.
A lot of manufactures are producing small turbo four's now days and claiming V6 power with cylinder economy. In the Comparo you provided, all of the vehicles are basically base models except for the Volvo (Which technically should have a huge advantage). "Bear-Av" already pointed out that the BMW actually had a disadvantage being it was fully loaded as it actually lost more points overall compared to a few other models. If you read the Motor trend comparo i provided they even say that if it was the base model it still would have won. You appear to be hung up on the value of the BMW yet the majority of the vehicles tested dont appear to be all bare bone models either.
Personally im surprised that yourself and few others wanted the 4G 6MT model in this comparison. Thats a HUGE pat on the back for BMW being you want the best performing vehicle Acura currently has to offer against a base 3 series. The TL 6MT was basically designed by Acura to compete against the S4, 335, etc etc and although the outcome is usually not in favor of the 6MT in those comparo's either, It should obviously be at the top if it was in this comparo......the 6AT though might be a different story.
Honestly didn't read the article you posted. I understand what you and bear are saying but my point is Acura can't compete on class winning performance because they are too small of a company focused more on putting out a good product with lots of value compared to the BMWs and German brands. They focus on value in the entry end to mid end of the spectrum per class. There cars for the top of the line versions cost about the same as the entry level version of the compared bmw in the same class. So my point although the tl sh-awd you would think compares to the s4 it really doesnt. They don't build anything that would compete against this class of car. If they did v8 and twin turbo8s then maybe but I really don't think they are focused on that. Obviously with the clear omission of the engines..
All I am saying is that for what most people are buying(not leasing) a 328i for could purchase a tl sh-awd and in normal driving could feel good about the fact that the tl-sh-awd is a comparable performer but larger and more comfortable for the money. Ill admit that the 328 will prob get better gas mileage but performance is pretty comparable.
For instance my bro just got a new MDX Advance two days ago. If you read the articles on that vehicle the MDX advance does pretty well. Just won a comparo on automobile mag I think. But its the advance version competing with lower versions of the X5 and other brands. Why? because if you put a twin turbo v8 with all the bells and whistles Acura doesn't have a mdx to compete with that. I had a bmw x5 3.0si that costs more than what my bro paid for the advance mdx and all I can say driving both is that the mdx is better driving. Its smoother drives better and is quieter and more refined. but my x5 didn't have sport adjustable suspension up graded stereo or nav or ventilated seats or all the lux features of the mdx advance. but the mdx was less expensive and gets better gas mileage.
I have driven a lot of new cars for my age and have a good Idea of what brands have to offer and feel that Acura always wins comparos because of the money (value) if you are comparing down right performance money not an object Acura will never win. Performance for value Acura would win. Prestige never win against type a brands. Reliability Acura will prob win. Lux money not an object Acura will never win. Acura lux for money Acura will win.
my oldest bro has a 11' BMW M3 4dr my 34 y/o bro has a 12' bmw 650 (had m3 convertible before that). I drive the best bmw has to offer and honestly I agree great at what they do. I honestly have had a few BMWs and will prob have one again in the future so Im really not out to put one brand down. I just thought putting the TL-shawd into this comparo would have made an interesting read and based on cost of the cars would have fit in. hell they should have put both the tsx v6 and tl-shawd cause both fit in terms of price point.
That's all I can say about my feelings towards these comparos. I understand your guys points but do you understand mine? If you guys can't even open your minds to what I am saying then I give up already and am just gonna judge you guys as trolls which come to acurazine to make yourselves feel better while making others feel shitty. I feel you guys are just using acurazine for validation on why what you have is the best and that you are right. I come to this site to discuss things not to prove points or for justification. If you guys are just here to prove points and seeking validation on what you have is the best then just say so and I will stop pushing this discussion with you. but just please be honest with me and admit it and stop using me to make yourselves feel better and validate your points.
I don't own a TL Sh-Awd or a tsx. So I really don't care if it won or not. I just thought C & D should have put it in to make a good read and by not putting in all the competition for the read then how can the say one is the winner. Its like winning by forfeit.
04-14-2012, 10:23 AM
#107
Suzuka Master
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^^^^^
I understand what you are saying, but in the comparos BMW introductory F30 show car lost a lot of points on value, a mention on the price issue & still won in both cases.
I still think the TL was not in the test because they were testing new or almost new models & the current TL is done in 2013. Once the magazines get hold of a 2014 the TL will show up all over the place, just like the 4G did because most readers are interested in “new” right after wanting to see their favorite brands.
I understand what you are saying, but in the comparos BMW introductory F30 show car lost a lot of points on value, a mention on the price issue & still won in both cases.
I still think the TL was not in the test because they were testing new or almost new models & the current TL is done in 2013. Once the magazines get hold of a 2014 the TL will show up all over the place, just like the 4G did because most readers are interested in “new” right after wanting to see their favorite brands.
04-14-2012, 01:47 PM
#109
^^^^^
I understand what you are saying, but in the comparos BMW introductory F30 show car lost a lot of points on value, a mention on the price issue & still won in both cases.
I still think the TL was not in the test because they were testing new or almost new models & the current TL is done in 2013. Once the magazines get hold of a 2014 the TL will show up all over the place, just like the 4G did because most readers are interested in “new” right after wanting to see their favorite brands.
I understand what you are saying, but in the comparos BMW introductory F30 show car lost a lot of points on value, a mention on the price issue & still won in both cases.
I still think the TL was not in the test because they were testing new or almost new models & the current TL is done in 2013. Once the magazines get hold of a 2014 the TL will show up all over the place, just like the 4G did because most readers are interested in “new” right after wanting to see their favorite brands.
New models???
The G is at the end of the road so is the IS and the TSX..,.,
04-14-2012, 02:52 PM
#110
I understand what you and bear are saying but my point is Acura can't compete on class winning performance because they are too small of a company focused more on putting out a good product with lots of value compared to the BMWs and German brands. They focus on value in the entry end to mid end of the spectrum per class. There cars for the top of the line versions cost about the same as the entry level version of the compared bmw in the same class. So my point although the tl sh-awd you would think compares to the s4 it really doesnt. They don't build anything that would compete against this class of car. If they did v8 and twin turbo8s then maybe but I really don't think they are focused on that. Obviously with the clear omission of the engines..
So they compare to S4's and 335's and even mention it next to some mid levels, even though they cost more and therefore usually present some type of an advantage be it performance (mainly because they are smaller cars), or luxury and refinement (mainly because those cars' prices start where the TL's ends), or a combination, or something other to that effect.
It wasn't include because the entire comparo was built ground up as a highlight or advertisement for the new 328 and a TL for the test's price average would have seriously rained on the parade IMO. Like you said, the problem we have with this is the TL has and probably will never be put into a comparo that truly highlights all of it's strengths or quailities, meanwhile a 328 at $50k can be made to look like something more than it is.
Honestly, the TL doesn't fit well anywhere and that is a part of the problem. It's an anomoly, for example, it's the cost of a comparably equipped 328, performance that falls in between the 328 and 335 (depending on which trim and tranny it is), and the size of a 5 series.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 04-14-2012 at 02:57 PM.
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HAWAII-TSX (04-16-2012)
04-14-2012, 04:36 PM
#111
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Why do you keep pushing for a car, except for the new Volvo 2.9 liter which lost, to be included with a 1.2 liter advantage in engine size? Even with the Volvo the TL is up about 800cc's. That is more displacement then my bike has.
If they wanted to move up over 3 liters in displacement the V6 333BHP 8spd Hyundai Genesis sedan could be included. They could have used $51K as a top price & brought in the 495BHP V8 Genesis R at $47K.
You guys keep coming up with all kinds of reasons why the TL should be included in, compared too, as good as & so on but again outside this forum its just not happening. I guess it can't be helped that the rest of us in the car buying public are just not as smart as you think you are.
Finally, With a any number of possible cars to choose from depending on how they wanted to run the test why pick one that the manufacturer has written off & with limited appeal outside this forum?
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cp3117 (04-17-2012)
04-16-2012, 06:33 PM
#112
Intermediate
I'm new to this forum and this is my first post. Sorry I just had to register so i could reply to bear's reply.
Most of what you are saying cannot be backed up by any fact except for the part about how the TL was written off! That's fighting words! stop tolling. The following is a link to a recent sales report from american Honda which shows a 46% increase in sales for the month of Jan 12'. One can assume based on this increase in sales "we have not written the TL off"
http://hondanews.com/channels/honda-...rly-50-percent
I believe it was a clear omission by C&D to not include any acura in the comparison. I think that omission is the reason many Acura owners are insulted. Not that they didn't win, but clearly that C&D does not think Acura can produce a car that can compete with a 45K BMW 328 w/4cyl engine! I'm not gonna make assumptions why they didn't include an Acura. All I can say is including one would have made the article more of a true comparo. All I can say to the other Acura owners who are upset by the omission is "cancel your C&D subscriptions". You all know what great products Acura makes and you love your cars so why let C&D tell you what you should drive.
I owned a 2007 bmw 335i 4dr with sport and prem package and I can tell you it was a great driving car. I enjoyed it most of the time when it was not in the shop. I had to have my fuel pump replaced 3 times and the whole injection system had to be overhauled and repaired, the techs didn't know what was wrong with it and had to run experiments on my engine with bmw of north america. That BMW spend over 40 days in the shop and had less than 6k miles. So yes bmw can build a great driving machine.... when it works.. Hope you haven't had the as bad luck as i did with my bmw. That engine over heating and going into limp mode can be a bitch too.... huh
....
Most of what you are saying cannot be backed up by any fact except for the part about how the TL was written off! That's fighting words! stop tolling. The following is a link to a recent sales report from american Honda which shows a 46% increase in sales for the month of Jan 12'. One can assume based on this increase in sales "we have not written the TL off"
http://hondanews.com/channels/honda-...rly-50-percent
I believe it was a clear omission by C&D to not include any acura in the comparison. I think that omission is the reason many Acura owners are insulted. Not that they didn't win, but clearly that C&D does not think Acura can produce a car that can compete with a 45K BMW 328 w/4cyl engine! I'm not gonna make assumptions why they didn't include an Acura. All I can say is including one would have made the article more of a true comparo. All I can say to the other Acura owners who are upset by the omission is "cancel your C&D subscriptions". You all know what great products Acura makes and you love your cars so why let C&D tell you what you should drive.
I owned a 2007 bmw 335i 4dr with sport and prem package and I can tell you it was a great driving car. I enjoyed it most of the time when it was not in the shop. I had to have my fuel pump replaced 3 times and the whole injection system had to be overhauled and repaired, the techs didn't know what was wrong with it and had to run experiments on my engine with bmw of north america. That BMW spend over 40 days in the shop and had less than 6k miles. So yes bmw can build a great driving machine.... when it works.. Hope you haven't had the as bad luck as i did with my bmw. That engine over heating and going into limp mode can be a bitch too.... huh
....
04-16-2012, 07:12 PM
#113
Burning Brakes
^^^ Remember at one point, Acura transmissions were falling out of the car.
Regarding the sales bump, was Acura offering incentives for January?
I do agree, you can protest CD/RT/etc by cancelling your subscriptions and writing the editors.
You can look at sales rankings on goodcarbadcar.net and see what the relative rankings are of the 3 series, G, TL, etc.
Regarding the sales bump, was Acura offering incentives for January?
I do agree, you can protest CD/RT/etc by cancelling your subscriptions and writing the editors.
You can look at sales rankings on goodcarbadcar.net and see what the relative rankings are of the 3 series, G, TL, etc.
Last edited by g37guy01; 04-16-2012 at 07:17 PM.
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cp3117 (04-17-2012)
04-16-2012, 07:50 PM
#114
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I'm new to this forum and this is my first post. Sorry I just had to register so i could reply to bear's reply.
Most of what you are saying cannot be backed up by any fact except for the part about how the TL was written off! That's fighting words! stop tolling. The following is a link to a recent sales report from american Honda which shows a 46% increase in sales for the month of Jan 12'. One can assume based on this increase in sales "we have not written the TL off"
Most of what you are saying cannot be backed up by any fact except for the part about how the TL was written off! That's fighting words! stop tolling. The following is a link to a recent sales report from american Honda which shows a 46% increase in sales for the month of Jan 12'. One can assume based on this increase in sales "we have not written the TL off"
With that in mind you are correct from Jan 11 to Jan 12 sales JUMPED a whole 46% from 1592 units to 2283.
Problem is Jan 11 was the worse month they have had in years so anything would look good.
Jan 11 - 1592 Jan 12 - 2283
Feb 11 - 2447 Feb 12 - 3211
Mar 11 - 3995 Mar 12 - 2923
Ofcourse Mar 11 to Mar 12 showed about a 30% loss in sales.
Bottom line is sales have been in the 30K range since day one of 4G with Honda projecting sales in the 70K range.
BTW are you a different person from Hawaii TSX who was equally out raged by my post?
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 04-16-2012 at 07:58 PM.
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cp3117 (04-17-2012)
04-16-2012, 08:10 PM
#115
I'm new to this forum and this is my first post. Sorry I just had to register so i could reply to bear's reply.
Most of what you are saying cannot be backed up by any fact except for the part about how the TL was written off! That's fighting words! stop tolling. The following is a link to a recent sales report from american Honda which shows a 46% increase in sales for the month of Jan 12'. One can assume based on this increase in sales "we have not written the TL off"
http://hondanews.com/channels/honda-...rly-50-percent
I believe it was a clear omission by C&D to not include any acura in the comparison. I think that omission is the reason many Acura owners are insulted. Not that they didn't win, but clearly that C&D does not think Acura can produce a car that can compete with a 45K BMW 328 w/4cyl engine! I'm not gonna make assumptions why they didn't include an Acura. All I can say is including one would have made the article more of a true comparo. All I can say to the other Acura owners who are upset by the omission is "cancel your C&D subscriptions". You all know what great products Acura makes and you love your cars so why let C&D tell you what you should drive.
I owned a 2007 bmw 335i 4dr with sport and prem package and I can tell you it was a great driving car. I enjoyed it most of the time when it was not in the shop. I had to have my fuel pump replaced 3 times and the whole injection system had to be overhauled and repaired, the techs didn't know what was wrong with it and had to run experiments on my engine with bmw of north america. That BMW spend over 40 days in the shop and had less than 6k miles. So yes bmw can build a great driving machine.... when it works.. Hope you haven't had the as bad luck as i did with my bmw. That engine over heating and going into limp mode can be a bitch too.... huh....
Most of what you are saying cannot be backed up by any fact except for the part about how the TL was written off! That's fighting words! stop tolling. The following is a link to a recent sales report from american Honda which shows a 46% increase in sales for the month of Jan 12'. One can assume based on this increase in sales "we have not written the TL off"
http://hondanews.com/channels/honda-...rly-50-percent
I believe it was a clear omission by C&D to not include any acura in the comparison. I think that omission is the reason many Acura owners are insulted. Not that they didn't win, but clearly that C&D does not think Acura can produce a car that can compete with a 45K BMW 328 w/4cyl engine! I'm not gonna make assumptions why they didn't include an Acura. All I can say is including one would have made the article more of a true comparo. All I can say to the other Acura owners who are upset by the omission is "cancel your C&D subscriptions". You all know what great products Acura makes and you love your cars so why let C&D tell you what you should drive.
I owned a 2007 bmw 335i 4dr with sport and prem package and I can tell you it was a great driving car. I enjoyed it most of the time when it was not in the shop. I had to have my fuel pump replaced 3 times and the whole injection system had to be overhauled and repaired, the techs didn't know what was wrong with it and had to run experiments on my engine with bmw of north america. That BMW spend over 40 days in the shop and had less than 6k miles. So yes bmw can build a great driving machine.... when it works.. Hope you haven't had the as bad luck as i did with my bmw. That engine over heating and going into limp mode can be a bitch too.... huh
....I agree with you 100%, it doesn't make sense really, Acura has not written off the struggling RL, just invested in another late MMC so what makes one think the TL has been? I don't know but they have also more recently invested an early MMC for the TL that also happens to be one of the best selling Acura models. Clearly it has not been written off in any capacity.
Also, the part about no appeal outsde of this forum, when there are more 4G TL owners who don't know what Acurazine is then there are 4G owners here and that deosn't even speak for the appeal, only ownership.
Anyway, welcome and I will warn you that you may have to get used to stuff like this on a fairly regular basis. Something about the car, I don't know exactly what it is.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 04-16-2012 at 08:12 PM.
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Hawaii-MDX (04-16-2012)
04-16-2012, 09:21 PM
#116
Intermediate
I'm not outraged.
I'm Hawaii-tsx's twin brother (really). I just purchased an 12 mdx advance last week wed. I like my brother have been fortunate enough to afford many different cars. Just to give you an idea over the past 17 (since i got my license) years i've had 12 cars (4 hondas , 2 nissans, 3 acuras, 2 bmw's, and 1 infiniti). My BMW's were both 3 series a 99' 323 and a 07 335i. My infiniti was a 08' G37 2dr 6mt) I just don't understand how you can make such blanket comments... but then again i've owned 2 bmw's so I know what driving a bmw does to it's drivers (miracle grow for your head).
each of the cars i've owned were special in their own way, which is why I purchased them.
You're comment's have caused this thread to become a pissing contest which was not the OP's intention. I believe the OP's intention was to point out that C&D's omission of an Acura in the comparison makes the article worthless. It was a poorly formulated comparison and shame on C&D for putting out such a bad article. Especially for all those BMW owners who are already fat in the head saying yippie look i drive the best car! BMW is marketing genius and yes they build great driving cars, but c'mon C&D stop serving the kool aid the the fat heads.
I'm Hawaii-tsx's twin brother (really). I just purchased an 12 mdx advance last week wed. I like my brother have been fortunate enough to afford many different cars. Just to give you an idea over the past 17 (since i got my license) years i've had 12 cars (4 hondas , 2 nissans, 3 acuras, 2 bmw's, and 1 infiniti). My BMW's were both 3 series a 99' 323 and a 07 335i. My infiniti was a 08' G37 2dr 6mt) I just don't understand how you can make such blanket comments... but then again i've owned 2 bmw's so I know what driving a bmw does to it's drivers (miracle grow for your head).
each of the cars i've owned were special in their own way, which is why I purchased them.
You're comment's have caused this thread to become a pissing contest which was not the OP's intention. I believe the OP's intention was to point out that C&D's omission of an Acura in the comparison makes the article worthless. It was a poorly formulated comparison and shame on C&D for putting out such a bad article. Especially for all those BMW owners who are already fat in the head saying yippie look i drive the best car! BMW is marketing genius and yes they build great driving cars, but c'mon C&D stop serving the kool aid the the fat heads.
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HAWAII-TSX (04-16-2012)
04-16-2012, 10:35 PM
#117
Racer
Thread Starter
I'm not outraged.
I'm Hawaii-tsx's twin brother (really). I just purchased an 12 mdx advance last week wed. I like my brother have been fortunate enough to afford many different cars. Just to give you an idea over the past 17 (since i got my license) years i've had 12 cars (4 hondas , 2 nissans, 3 acuras, 2 bmw's, and 1 infiniti). My BMW's were both 3 series a 99' 323 and a 07 335i. My infiniti was a 08' G37 2dr 6mt) I just don't understand how you can make such blanket comments... but then again i've owned 2 bmw's so I know what driving a bmw does to it's drivers (miracle grow for your head).
each of the cars i've owned were special in their own way, which is why I purchased them.
You're comment's have caused this thread to become a pissing contest which was not the OP's intention. I believe the OP's intention was to point out that C&D's omission of an Acura in the comparison makes the article worthless. It was a poorly formulated comparison and shame on C&D for putting out such a bad article. Especially for all those BMW owners who are already fat in the head saying yippie look i drive the best car! BMW is marketing genius and yes they build great driving cars, but c'mon C&D stop serving the kool aid the the fat heads.
I'm Hawaii-tsx's twin brother (really). I just purchased an 12 mdx advance last week wed. I like my brother have been fortunate enough to afford many different cars. Just to give you an idea over the past 17 (since i got my license) years i've had 12 cars (4 hondas , 2 nissans, 3 acuras, 2 bmw's, and 1 infiniti). My BMW's were both 3 series a 99' 323 and a 07 335i. My infiniti was a 08' G37 2dr 6mt) I just don't understand how you can make such blanket comments... but then again i've owned 2 bmw's so I know what driving a bmw does to it's drivers (miracle grow for your head).
each of the cars i've owned were special in their own way, which is why I purchased them.
You're comment's have caused this thread to become a pissing contest which was not the OP's intention. I believe the OP's intention was to point out that C&D's omission of an Acura in the comparison makes the article worthless. It was a poorly formulated comparison and shame on C&D for putting out such a bad article. Especially for all those BMW owners who are already fat in the head saying yippie look i drive the best car! BMW is marketing genius and yes they build great driving cars, but c'mon C&D stop serving the kool aid the the fat heads.
@bear I wasn't outraged just thought you looked a little stupid making statements without knowing the facts. I mean you are old but that doesn't make you wise.
Last edited by HAWAII-TSX; 04-16-2012 at 10:37 PM. Reason: forgot to add something
04-17-2012, 08:19 AM
#118
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Sep 2006
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No problem, but the BMW 3 series is far from the most upscale car I have owned since 1960. My fat head is from a lot of other things then what car or cars I have owned. It just comes naturally. In point of fact my other favorite DD is the Ranger which gets used almost as much as the 335is
Now back to the stupid fact of the 46% increase in sales for January & Honda's CEO saying they are in deep S*** & need to change their strategy when introducing the new Acura a few months ago.
Now back to the stupid fact of the 46% increase in sales for January & Honda's CEO saying they are in deep S*** & need to change their strategy when introducing the new Acura a few months ago.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 04-17-2012 at 08:22 AM.
04-17-2012, 02:59 PM
#119
That's all I can say about my feelings towards these comparos. I understand your guys points but do you understand mine? If you guys can't even open your minds to what I am saying then I give up already and am just gonna judge you guys as trolls which come to acurazine to make yourselves feel better while making others feel shitty. I feel you guys are just using acurazine for validation on why what you have is the best and that you are right. I come to this site to discuss things not to prove points or for justification. If you guys are just here to prove points and seeking validation on what you have is the best then just say so and I will stop pushing this discussion with you. but just please be honest with me and admit it and stop using me to make yourselves feel better and validate your points.
"Bear" has already clearly shown that if you look at the scoring in the comparo, the BMW actually had a disavantage buy being fully loaded and at a higher price point over a couple models, therefore losing some points overall.
I even provided you a link to a very similar comparo recently done by Motor Trend that clearly explains their decision when scoring the same loaded 328i in their test. I really dont understand how you can call people closed minded when you even admitted you couldnt open the link to read the article i provided....talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
In 2009 Car and Driver did a similar comparo where the 4G TL was included and it came in dead last. Over the last few years the TL has mostly come in behind vehicles like the A4, etc so who knows why it wasnt in the comparo. Maybe Car and Driver didnt want the vehicle there as it didnt meet the criteria for their test (Like Bear-Av has already explained) or maybe Acura didnt want any bad press against the 4G again and refused to give them a press vehicle which has happened to other mags and manufactuers in the past.
You have to understand that the majority of these mags are at the mercy of what the manufactuer PR teams have avaliable or want to give the mags. Its not like they wander onto some dealers lot and grab what they want all of the time.
Im not sure why you created this thread if you get so upset because people have a different opinion. People here have provided facts and links supporting their opinion but It seems like you where hoping for people to grab the Acura banner and fall in blindly behind you. I think your starting to realise that there are auto enthusiasts here and not just people drinking kool-aid.
04-17-2012, 03:01 PM
#120
Maybe so but what does that have to do with the specific suggestions that the TL has been written-off and it also having no appeal outside of this forum? Both highly inaccurate statements.