Steven Bell

iTrader: (2)

Guys, this is an excellent discussion, but you all REALLY need to use the Multi-Quote button. In the lower right hand corner of each post, the middle icon is the button I'm talking about.

This allows you to respond to more than one person in a single reply.

Thanks!

winstrolvtec

I agree that Acura lacks a strong identity and/or perhaps it's just not the most desirable of one for the luxury segments, particularly to boost them to top 3 sales levels but as I mentioned above, they could do much worse. I would go even further as to say that no identity by itself is desired by the masses or general buying public, only by the sets of individuals. It's other things that suggest that this indentity is desirable and this is what you want to have and at times, opposed to something else, think of the Mac vs PC ads from years back.

There are many ways to achieve this, one of them we have an example of in the thread topic, that being magazine influences and catering to them and their wants so they can easily express how satisfied they are with your product, catering back to you but there also is a bit of a disconnect between their wants and those of the general public but it does work from a business standpoint.

As far as what I was getting at in my above response, it was meant to be a bit sarcastic, meaning most BMW drivers do not even know what wheels drive the car, for example. You and I, as well as most here, can associate "it's a BMW" to road feel, solid chassis and overall high sport demeanor, etc but many who buy these products simply can't. A lot don't know what makes the car or brand desirable, only that for them it is. And while those quailities that you listed may be objective in that perspective, what makes them superior is purely subjective.

So when it's not about the association of qualities or characteristics and the individuals don't really know, just that it is a BMW and the connotations attached to them, whether it comes from their private lives or the public perception (or both), says or represents enough that this is what they want or should want/drive, or think they want even, but that is another discussion for another time. Then there are some in the middle who can make the associations but just can't be even remotely objective about comparisons to other cars and how they relate.

Someone here mentioned in another recent thread about what it was like at BMW's forums having owned another brand before and how much classier it was here. I think that goes back to the points about the differences in the badge and it's overall appeal, which more is usually a good thing no doubt, but you can see the difference in the mentality and demeanor of the majority of the customer bases.

This doesn't only apply to BMW to be clear, MB has the same type of appeal but of a different style or direction as does Lexus to an extent, excluding the more expsensive, higher end luxury brands of course. It also more appropariately applies to the majority of sub and entry level model consumer bases, where the higher volume is and general public has more access to.

BEAR-AvHistory

””6. Could you have chosen a current model car in the luxury 4dr. sport sedan class for $50,800.00 msrp that could have beat the BMW328I.””

I will do #6 first & leave the rest to the others for now. BMW 335i sport line with premium & technology packages, $49,995 msrp including delivery/handling.

HAWAII-TSX

OMG you are right. Car and Driver is stupid. Why didn't they use the BMW335. It obviously has better value.

WOW I used the word value when describing a BMW.

So what I think this means is in entry level BMW can't compete as well. And on the lower price point you could prob find a better car for the money but move the price up and the BMW becomes the better choice for the money. I don't know why anyone would buy a $50000 328 when they could get a loaded 335. dumb

C&D should post the options on that 328I

But I still think if you made that 328I base the others would have won.

Well this is an eye opener. No wonder 3 Series is dime a dozen. I just feel sorry for the fools who buy the loaded 328I after reading this article and realize they could have bought a 335I. Haha

g37guy01

^ I don't think people are that stupid. The f30 has tech not even available on the TL. What the smart people will do, is buy the f30 optioned reasonably and the bump the hp with a md or two.

saturno_v

...and the TL has tech not available in the F30....for example a Torque Vectoring AWD......the F30 just came out while the 4G TL has been out since Dec 2008.

g37guy01

Agreed. I happen to like awd cars with a rwd bias, which is bmws target market. So I'm not sure how torque vectoring fits into that market since it needs full time awd.

HAWAII-TSX

Really most people??? wow most bmw 328I buyers I see are yuppies. In Hawaii anyway. They are normally foreign and can't drive well to begin with. But I live in a unique place. don't know how it is on the mainland. Guess most grab there bmws and fix em up like you are saying. I'll take your word for it. Next time I travel ill ask all the 328 owners I see "what you did to your car bro? I heard that most of you guys bump the HP with a mod or two. what you pushing now."

I don't know of another company who offers ipod voice search features? and honestly ELS kicks ass and not many offer torque vectoring awd at least not in this price range. This is exactly my point. No one gives acuras credit for what they do that others don't.

You obviously don't understand cause you don't have an Acura. I created this thread more for Acura owners to chime in on how they think the TL SH-AWD would compete with the vehicles in the article.

Not for people to give us a hard time. I don't know what most of the other people would do like you are saying. All I am saying is given the cars in this article how do you think the tl sh-awd would have done.

FYI torque vectoring AWD (SH-AWD) is better than xdrive on the 3 series even if its rwd biased. xdrive doesnt torque vector unless its on the x6.

g37guy01

You obviously don't understand cause you don't have an Acura.

Actually I understand perfectly. I am Acuras target demographic. An established well read business person who loved his fathers Legend. I am waiting for Acura to release a car that seems to top the charts.

I am not interested in torque vectoring on my vehicle, because I want a RWD bias.

Here in the mainland (and I've been to our 50th state twice), BMW will sell you a BMW endorsed HP bump on the 335 that is fully warrantied.

Each car has it advantages and disadvantages and like you say "yuppies" are buying the cars, which tell me a little about your mindset.

These comparos as mostly b/s anyway. I happen to like the way BMW drives, so if I were the editor of these comparos. BMWs would probably win.

saturno_v

Torque vectoring is very useful in spirited driving regardless of traction bias....BMW xDrive is supposedly a full time AWD system.
The Nissan GT-R for example has TV differentials both front and back. Audi offers true TV capabilities only as an option on their S line of cars (S4 and S5 so far).
Similarly, BMW offers TV (their Sport Differential option) only on their most expensive M models, the X5M, X6M and M5, the latter uses a TV differential even if it is a RWD car, torque vectoring is not necessarily used only for an AWD setup.

g37guy01

The STI has my ideal setup, variable front to rear bias.

DannyZRC

saturno, the GT-R has mechanical clutch type LSD's front and rear. I found this out recently. The torque vectoring thing has been repeated in various media outlets, I was very surprised, but I verified from multiple sources.

R35 GT-R just has 1.5 way clutch LSDs.

It should be noted that if a car has neutral steer, it can't really benefit from torque vectoring (at least in steady state cornering, transitions can still be hastened), since the additional yaw forces would just produce oversteer in a neutral-steer application. This is the reasoning for BMW M division for using eLSD rather than vectoring diff in their new M5. the X6M and X5M are somewhat noseheavy and thus benefit from TV.

a tail heavy car like a 911 would benefit from torque vectoring to combat natural oversteer as much as a front heavy car like the TL benefits in combating natural understeer.

IMO, what makes the SH-AWD system so desirable is that it retains all of the real world safety and controllability benefits of FWD, and reduces/eliminates the disadvantages of slip under hard acceleration, steady state understeer, and reduced yaw response. It also shares much of transverse-FWD packaging advantages, Is fairly light and mechanically simple, and also fairly fuel efficient for an AWD implementation.

HAWAII-TSX

Acura is trying to target everyone. I think most of the driving population is Acuras target demographic. Even a High school student getting his license can prob get his parents to buy him an ILX now.

honestly at the time your father had a legend a bmw 5 series at the time was probably still at the top of the charts but your father bought the fwd legend for other reasons. I think Acura still has a lot of the same values they had. Your taste has just changed.

Acura will never TOP THE CHARTS because they focus on value. The closest you will get is prob the NSX and it prob won't top the charts on speed and handling it will prob win comparisons based on MPG, price, and reliability.

If you want a rwd bias you are shit out of luck with anything other than the nsx concept cause I don't think Acura has any plans of a rwd platform.

this option doen't exist here. I had three bmws' so far and not once was I offered this perfomance upgrade. And I had a top of the line 07 bmw 550 at one time.

I consider myself a yuppie as well as you. Whats wrong with the meaning. I don't understand. Unless you are older than 39

Yuppie (short for "young urban professional" or "young upwardly mobile professional")[1][2] is a term that refers to a member of the upper middle class or upper class in their 20s or 30s.[3] It first came into use in the early-1980s and largely faded from American popular culture in the late-1980s, due to the 1987 stock market crash and the early 1990s recession. However it has been used in the 2000s and 2010s, in places such as in National Review, The Weekly Standard and Details.[4][5][6]

I am glad you agree that that this article was B/S that's all my point was and honestly thank you for putting that you would be a biased reviewer also. It only reinforces my opinion of the article.

saturno_v

Interesting what you are saying about the GT-R..I read in several places it has TV diff.

TV helps accelerating out of a curve, especially for a RWD where overpowering can initiate unwanted excessive power oversteering without resorting to cutting the power off.

TV is always useful regardless of car balance and traction layout (FWD, RWD or AWD).

It does not offer any advantage on a very well balanced car on a curve of constant radius at constant speed.....a fraction of real life situations.

As far as I know the new F10 M5 has a TV rear diff (Active M Differential).

eLSD is the most inexpensive and pretty common LSD solution for cars, it simulate Locking acting on the brakes.

DannyZRC

No, M5 uses a real eLSD, not brake LSD, it's a clutch type locking diff with electronically variable preload of the clutch stack.

TV does help transitional response some, but the more neutral a car is, the less slip differential there is to make up for, and then the TV is only really working against rotational inertia. The main benefit is in steady state condition, where yaw rate surplus/deficit can be managed.

A RWD car can only slightly mitigate power oversteer with TV, since the excess power that can be re-routed to the inside is limited by the reduced normal force on the inside rear tire.

TV generates yaw with differential drive, but if a car already faithfully tracks yaw rate with steering (neutral handling) then any positive yaw created is oversteer, and any negative yaw is understeer. The higher a car's polar moment is, the more time lag there is in yaw response, this can be compensated for by TV, but is a less signficant factor than steady state over/understeer (which is most of the cornering event).

TV also positively contributes to steering authority of any stability systems as well.

saturno_v

The way you describe this differential it it seems pretty close in functioning principle to a TV rear diff. (variable, or actively managed clutch stack load).

A TV rear diff is by definition a "variable" LSD with active management opposed to a "passive" (or "reactive") traditional LSD.


Yes TV may not prevent in extreme cases a power cutoff condition by the traction control system if the inside tire reaches its critical limit.....still TV can "push forward" traction control intervention.

Absolutely.

Not really that nose heavy according to BMW USA compared to their sedans, the X6 50 for example has a 51/49 front/rear weight distribution and the X5 50 has a 49/51 ratio (so it is heavier at the back!!).

DannyZRC

I wouldn't call an active LSD a thrust vectoring device, it lacks the ability to actively shunt torque to the outside wheel.

a LSD of any type has torque acting against the speed differential of the wheels, since the outside wheel is turning faster it is actually the torque donor to the inside wheel until the inside wheel breaks loose and spins up, at which point the slip limiting function is increasing the torque applied to the outside wheel by preventing the loss through the slipping path of the inside wheel. This is why very tight passive LSDs actually cause quite significant understeer until the inside tire is broken loose with power.

Torque vectoring involves speed-up/speed-down gearing to allow differential torque application without slip being necessary.

This faster/slower relationship also constrains rear-based clutch actuated AWD systems, as the front axle spins faster than the rear as a function of steering angle. Most rear-built AWD systems incorporate a fixed small overdrive amount to allow torque transfer forwards during starting and straight ahead operation, but when the overdrive % is overcome by steering angle, any torque load on the clutch will actually serve to brake the front axle and increase torque on the rear, until the rears slip enough to equalize speed and allow the load to move forwards through the clutch.

saturno_v

The traditional LSD reacts to torque difference or speed difference to operate, so it is a somewhat a "reactive" device.

Once you manage actively torque distribution through a clutch system monitored by electronic sensor, in my understanding, we are in the realm of torque vectoring.

The step up gear is used to limit the efficiency loss of the clutch slippage and for additional wheel overdrive, again, in my understanding....it should be not a set in stone prerequisite for pure torque vectoring principle.

From the Horse mouth...BMW USA official site, Active M Differential

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...tial_lock.html

They do not use the words "Torque Vectoring" but the description is pretty straightforward....similar to what the SH-AWD real differential does.

All the specialized press describe the Active M differential as a Torque vectoring device.

For example Insideline (Edmunds)

http://www.insideline.com/bmw/m5/201...os-leaked.html

Car & Driver

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...hotos-and-info


I cannot find some clear cutaway pics or diagrams of the Active M diff to see if there are step up gears embedded in the device.

saturno_v

Danny

This is an interesting clip about the Ferrari FF which uses TV. You can see the diagram of the front differential with no step up gears past the clutches.

DannyZRC

Saturno, the 4RM 4wd system is a 2 speed front transmission, 1st gear is slightly higher than the rear transaxle 2nd gear, and 2nd gear is slightly higher than the rear transaxle 4th gear, this is where the "speed up" is achieved, before the clutches. once the transaxle is put into 5th or higher gear, the two front drive clutches remain open.

Anything that redirects torque could strictly be called torque vectoring, including a passive LSD. If you want to constrain this to active systems only, you could call an eLSD a torque vectoring system, but IMO it isn't quite accurate. an LSD (in this case referring just to clutch type slip limiting differentials, not torque biasing differentials which are a different kettle of fish) Will produce a turning torque against the turning direction, because the outside wheel is turning faster than the inside wheel and so will donate it's torque to the slower output.

As input torque rises, the torque donated to driving the inside wheel will cause it to experience increased slip, and if this rises enough the inside tire will be overcome and slip. Once slip has occured, the load the tire can take is reduced, and so the same torque will cause it to speed up, this process can continue until the inside wheelspeed equalizes with outside wheelspeed, if the inside wheel overspeeds the outside wheel, the clutch torque will then act against the now faster inside wheel, and provide torque to the outside wheel, this process iterates constantly, so the inside wheel's speed will be somewhat higher than the outside wheel, the greater the locking torque of the clutch, the closer these wheelspeeds will be.

With the inside wheel spinning, it's ability to produce tractive forces is significantly reduced, and because cornering causes load transfer to the outside wheels, the normal force is also reduced.

The net effect is that the LSD provides anti-turn yaw forces with low input torque, and as input torque rises this neutralizes and then becomes pro-turn yaw force, but for this to occur the inside rear wheel must be slipping significantly, so total tractive force available is reduced.

An eLSD simply changes on the fly the level to which these effects occure, whereas a normal LSD has fixed values for how much clutch preload there is, how quickly locking force ramps up with drive force, etc.

It kinda does some of the things torque vectoring does, but not exactly, you know? Obviously LSDs are phenomenal benefits to handling, and an eLSD is that much better for sure. But it's not quite the same as torque vectoring.

winstrolvtec

In most other applications, TV is applied to systems that are already rear biased as it is so I'm not sure why it wouldn't appeal to all AWD consumers. The S4 for example is 40/60 with or without the active differential and it is considered better or enhanced with it as opposed to without. Unless you are looking for something like the 4Matic or Infiniti system, even the one found in the GT-R, where they are mostly rear wheel drive in default position, then TV should apply and be of high interest.

Saturno, I have also read in numerous (perhaps not overly technical) reviews that the GT-R had TV on the front and back axles but I had also seen bits of info to the contrary. I tried to get the facts but it seemed that thorough info was not readily available, at least where I was searching anyway. Don't know why there is such misinformation out there, it appears that marketing really does construe the facts and many are reputable publications so I don't know what is up with that.

Probably goes back to this thread's topic a bit and it appears even the so called experts don't know what from what. I'm no longer sure if their expertise even translates all that well to technical vehicle aspects and how they relate as opposed to simply selling ads and authoring reviews.

Going back to the GT-R, I believe that it has an active biasing effect in the center differential for active rear to front transfers, also with no slippage required, like SH but instead, working rear to front opposed to front to rear and with different proportional amounts of torque as well but has LSD's in the front and rear like Danny suggested.

Where it is different is that I don't believe there is any vectoring taking place in the strict sense of the word, although it is not worlds different as you suggested. Vectoring applies mostly to side to side active transfers because of the change or forcing of direction of the engine's applied torque among the rear wheels with the ability to completely drive or overdrive one while only rotating the other if necessary, when they all have full traction, which is different than free spin variances among two wheels on a single axle, which applies to normal differentials placed there, be it open or any of the forms of LSD.

What stands out about SH is that it is one of few (if any other systems) that simultaneously controls both the front to rear distribution and rear side to side with actual vectoring that is also active and not dependant on slippage. As far as I know, there are systems that have the active front and rear but no vectoring side to side. There are others that have active side to side vectoring but no active front to rear (only passive with slippage) and there are those that are the most similar that have both active front and rear as well as side to side vectoring (usually also only in the rear axle) that are not controlled by the same single unit or differential. That generally means SH is one of the (if not the) most fluid and dynamically capable dry handling systems. However it does have it’s limitations but almost none in this specific regard.

winstrolvtec

-Ran out of edit time.

BEAR-AvHistory

If a 335i for under $50K which answered your question #6 is not satisfactory to you how about a 328 Sportline with the Premium & Technology packages for $45,995? Still the most expensive in the group but only by a few thousand.

Agree, BMW’s are a dime a dozen around here too. So are Audi’s & MB’s. That is because people want to buy them. The TL, who's 3G used to be a nickel a dozen here, is a sales failure because people don’t want to buy them even if they cost less. Again I think it was not in the test because its an old model & does not sell well. If there was a Honda in the test I would have liked to see the Acura V6 TSX Sport for $42K

The issue real is will Honda develop a product that all us dummies who have BMW’s et all will consider owning. What is interesting is how we all went from the second smartest people in the room (Prius are the smartest) when we had TL’s to a group of stupid's went we moved to Audi, Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Hyundai/Kia.

Regardless of the technology, SH-AWD taken from an SUV, was Honda's attempt for make what is still a nose heavy FWD car handle like a rear wheel drive. They did an excellent job technically but the general population still thinks of it as a FWD because most of them are. This is a marketing problem for Honda because people associate RWD with premium cars for the simple reason that premium cars have RWD.

Even Lexus that has overlap Camry/ES their premium lines move to RWD staring with the $46K GS.

Back to the point about the test. The object of the test is not to test cars but sell magazines & a BMW test on the cover sells magazines. As far as I know, going by the “Backfires” column no comparo test has ever pleased everybody. Will be interesting to see what is sent in by the readers about this one. You might want to send them a email to make your thoughts known.

BTW: BMW has enough boxes on its order form to run a 328 over $50 so people must be buying them for what ever reason. I had no problem checking the boxes for an overpriced 335is because I wanted a good performance base to build on in what I consider an small, agile, comfortable, attractive car & with its current 385whp (440BHP) that's what I have.

Your results may vary.

saturno_v

Danny

I totally agree that a LSD could be called in principle a "passive" or "reactive" torque vectoring.....heck even a normal diff could be.

My definition or Torque Vectoring is referred to system that can actively manage torque transfer beyond torque or speed differences, when torque can be redirected based on yaw sensors, etc... as the SH-AWD does and the Active M diff does.

For example Audi call "Torque Vectoring" a setup that should be called "Brake Steering", selective braking action on the 4 wheels, similar to what the Acura VSA does....yes it is actively managed so this is the reason they call it that way.

Yes torque biasing geared differentials (like the Torse for example) are a different animal and in principle they are not a true LSD....for example in the Torsen if one wheel has total zero traction the other wheel won't move like a normal diff.

Yes the Ferrari FF has a front 2 speed gearbox (there is no direct connection between front and rear axle like a traditional AWD) however there is not step up gearing past the clutches to compensate for clutch slippage.

DannyZRC

Saturno, the active M diff is just an electronic clutch across the axle, a variable LSD.

The Ferarri FF accomplishes the step up gearing in the 2 speed transmission, the 1st gear of the 4RM is a notch higher than the 2nd gear in the transaxle, so in Transaxle-1st or Transaxle-2nd, any clutch activation in the front will be trying to drive the respective front wheel faster than the rear axle, the same is true with the 2nd gear in the 4RM being a notch higher than 4th in the transaxle.

All that has to be true is that for a given engine RPM, the wheel is trying to be driven faster than the others, so that it will absorb the torque and generate asymmetric thrust, whether you accomplish this in the gearing before the clutches or after the clutches isn't material.

saturno_v

Danny this is BMW description of the Active M differential

Active M Differential.

More traction and greater stability when cornering and even on snow, gravel or ice. The Active M Differential supplies optimum traction and supports the dynamic qualities of the rear-wheel drive – both when accelerating out of corners and manoeuvring on slippery surfaces.
The Active M Differential even affords precise handling in cases of extreme lateral acceleration or uneven road surfaces. Here the active system is connected to the DSC by an electronic control element and proactively imposes an intelligent locking action – completely independent of the differences in rotational speed between the right and left rear wheel. The results of this channelling of drive power are optimum traction, better handling as well as increased agility.

Another description from European Car magazine

http://www.europeancarweb.com/firstl...5/viewall.html

The M Differential uses sensors to detect yaw moment, yaw angle, throttle position, differential speeds between the two rear wheels and road speed. The information is fed to the controlling ECU, which compares inputs against its 3D maps, and sends back its response. All this happens within 10 milliseconds, so the car’s reaction to a given situation appears seamless to the driver.


This is exactly how the SH-AWD works.....the SH-AWD rear/center differential behaves by definition as an "intelligent" or "active" LSD......

If they have yaw control sensors, lateral acceleration sensors and so on feeding into the system, in my opinion that is Torque Vectoring....and so it seems to be for the press.


The Step Up gear after the clutch can be important to mitigate efficiency loss in clutch slippage between the input plate and the driven plate.

DannyZRC

Saturno, the locking torque is independent of wheel speed, but the direction the torque is transferred is completely linked to the relative wheel speed. Any locking torque will ALWAYS attempt to slow the faster moving wheel, and speed up the slower moving wheel.

The Active M differential is a clutch that connects one of the outdrives to the carrier, thus applying torque to equalize the wheel speed. The fact that the locking torque is actively managed doesn't change the nature of the system, It is an LSD but instead of being a "loose" LSD or a "stiff" LSD, it is as loose or stiff as the computer wishes it to be, but it is still a device working for equal wheel speed across the diff.

This is Absolutely and Fundamentally different from a torque vectoring system, where the locking torque is working to a specific unequal wheel speed.

In the case of SH-AWD, there isn't even a differential in the rear or center, the SH-AWD takes an input shaft that is directly driven off the front diff and drives each rear wheel with it's own clutch/overdrive gearbox. There is no slip action to limit. The system doesn't slip, so people liken it to a limited slip, but that's really not a sane descriptor.

saturno_v

Yes Danny I know that the SH-AWD "diff" is not a "real" diff, it does not have a satellite/planetary gearset, and one wheel can be completely left "loose" if you open up the relative clutch.


The Active M is a "real" differential (so is the ZF Sport differential which works exactly in the same way)

However the Active M differential can activate torque transfer well beyond the normal real of a regular LSD diff...for example it can react to yaw input...and it does so pro-actively.......I do not know (I cannot find a detailed working description of the Active M) if one wheel can be completely disconnected "on demand"....traditional clutch type LSDs don't, the two wheels are always mechanically connected.

I do understand hat the Active M diff can modify the locking percentage "on the fly".

We can resolve this interesting technical discussion only when we can figure out if the Active M differential can "disconnect" one wheel on the fly in certain situations.

saturno_v

Danny, I found the cutaway view of the ZF Active Sport Differential used by Audi and the ZF Vector Drive used on the BMW X5 and X6.


As you can see these 2 devices have a traditional planetary gearset, unlike the SH-AWD, however both are Torque Vectoring devices, I suspect the clutches can be completely open to release one wheel "on demand". As you know both are Torque Vectoring differentials

Audi ZF Active Sport Differential




ZF Vector Drive

DannyZRC

I don't know why you expect to find magical things, the active M diff is just like any number of other electronically managed LSDs. Jeep Quadra Drive II, newest haldex (golf R, XWD saab), etc.

http://www.bimmerfile.com/2011/09/28...ial-in-detail/

It's a clutch pack that connects the right outdrive to the carrier, it is clamped by the drive cam just like a conventional clutch type LSD from one side, and instead of a fixed perch on the other side you have an electromechanically adjustable preload.

All it can do is apply torque to equalize wheel speed, that is the only thing it could possibly do. The rest of the car is such that this is all it needs, and so this is all it does, and that's fine, but it's not TV, not IMO.

DannyZRC

The ZF diff you're showing connects each outdrive to the carrier with a clutch through it's own speed-up gearbox, by closing the clutch the given wheel receives torque straight from the carrier through the speed-up gearing, and the total torque distributed by the differential is reduced by the same amount taken from the carrier by the speed-up assembly, this remaining torque is split 50:50 between the wheels by the diff, net effect is that the clutch and speed-up gearing take torque from one wheel and apply it to the other.

It can't disconnect a wheel, not that this capacity is entirely relevant.

saturno_v

Is that a TV for you?? Or you do no agree even with the maker of these devices that call them TV??

Edward'TLS

This has been a very informative and professional discussion on TV variations offered by different auto brands. Keep it up.

DannyZRC

The ZF vector drive and active sport driff implementations are TV, of course.

I know ZF claims the vector drive is the newer more better version, but I must confess ignorance to the difference between the two.

SlowLane

I read the Motor Trend comparison, which placed the TSX V-6 in 6th place. The Volvo S60 T5 placed 2nd. I recently took a S60 T5 on a test drive, and wasn't that impressed with the handling. I've driven friends 3rd gen TL's and Audi A4's, and thought both were better handling vehicles. The TSX wagon is too.

I've seen video reviews that rave about the 2012 TL SH-AWD, so I also cannot understand why Car and Driver left Acura out of the comparison.

DannyZRC

a bit of googling, I can't find any substantiation that they aren't just two names for the same thing. Just Audi putting their own name on ZF's system I imagine, like they rebadge haldex as Quattro/4Motion etc.

(tried to edit this in, no dice!)

winstrolvtec

As far as the example of the comparo that helps create the perception that makes people want to go buy a BMW, etc, I think it primarily applies to entry level models where it would have a direct effect. As for the other models, I'm sure it is more of a residual effect.

It's price range and level where it easily has the most influence. The general buying public is not running down to the local BMW dealer to buy a well equipped 535 model or 7 series, etc. The entry levels are what will gather luxury as well as mainstream interest especially with price ranges that are not necessarily completely out of reach for an Accord or Camry segment buyer.

While it is easy to see the TL has underachieved according to sales expectations and the previous generation model, I wouldn't go so far as to call it a failure, unless of course you mean everything that falls short of being the best selling model is a failure. There are a lot of elements involved to simply write it off as a failure.

Fact of the matter is, Lexus, BMW and MB sell the most luxury cars in the states but that's talking about brands as a whole. You are comparing brands to the TL, the TL is not the brand, Acura is. As a whole, there is not much of a difference in the amount of cars Acura, Audi, and Infiniti sell, same thing goes for the top 3.

Going back to what I've suggested above, the main difference between each of these two groups is really the effectiveness of the entry product(s), not the whole brand. So it has little to do with people still choosing against the TL even despite it being cheaper because in the majority of the cases, the 3 series or C class, ES/IS (which are the difference maker in sales levels) are not necessarily more expensive, actually they rarely ever are truly outside of the same range as a TL (G or A4), in terms of the average sales price of the majority of units sold.

If you want to compare sales of the TL to other actual models instead, something like the the 3 and 5 series, who do very well in their respective classes for example, would suffice but because we can't select only those sales that are closest to the TL build and price, unfortunately you have to look at them all. The 3 sells a lot more in total but the figures are not all based on the 3 series sedan, also in the same price range as the TL of $36k-$46k. It would be interesting to see those specific numbers in comparison. I wonder if it would apply to that same definition of a failure or not.

So the overall number comparisons aren't quite accurate and the uncommon success of a single variant mid size entry model in the 3G TL (and at a different time) does not automatically make the 4G a failure. Compared to the 3G, probably but in general, probably not.

We can't disregard that the 3 is available in a multiple of trims and variations because it sounds or looks good. The TL is not a full range product line with a $30k price spread between trims (not counting the M3), there also is not three relatively similar products within the BMW brand positioned around the 3series. They use a larger price spread and more configurations instead of different models.

We can't as accurately align the comparison with the 528/35 models within specific price ranges because the 5's range is usually outside of the TL's, barely touching or overlapping at best, but I'm sure the 1 in 4 TL buyers who opt for the SH could easily reach a bit and get into a 5 costing up to $10k more, which I think is a fair assessment, especially since the comparably equipped 3 runs that extra $10k anyway (roughly) and the TL is a mid size. That type of 5 model also probably accounts for only 1 in 4 5 serie sales as well. So they are less than 800 units apart on the year based on these assumptions and quick calculations for each models' YTD total. That's not much less of a failure IMO.

And there is many other factors I won't get into because it's already been beaten to death like the sudden up market push and price spike, styling controversy, TSX's increased role in the lineup, and the limitations of FWD engineering making the Accord more similar to FWD TL models than previously but another big one I will at least touch on is the demographics.

Acura and the 4G are very common in my area, and areas like mine. Also a dime a dozen with multiple 4G's seen in a single short commute, nevermind the brand as a whole, and the 3G is like a rare animal going extinct today. Which is still Acura's fault for making demographic specific products but it is a factor and a choice nontheless that effects the outcome more today than a few years ago where FWD was more popular of a choice in the luxury segments than it is now.

BEAR-AvHistory

Honda projected sales at 75-80K units per year & its selling at a rate of 34K units. A grade of 50% or less in most places is an "F". Used to be 69% or less was an "F" but but I am cutting it a lot of slack.

JM2010 SH-AWD

^^Just curious as to whether you've driven a 4G TL and what your impressions were of the car's driving dynamics?

winstrolvtec

So you're assuming that means there is more of an issue with the car than there was with the estimate. There's a reasons why those are only projections. I suppose by that logic if they said they were hoping to sell only 20k units, it should be considered a hit.

You do know the 07-08 TL only sold units in 50k's when the ball start rolling and shortly after at the 4G intro, the auto industry melted. I would assume something around that mark and maybe a little less (say 45k) would still indicate it was doing good but I agree that somethings are off in comparison as it comes in around 10k or so units less than that which gets divided up among all of the areas and factors I went over. Suggesting it is a failure is a bit strong, the RL sales excluding the first two years is an example of a failure IMO.

Obviously not what you want in any business but other than the styling controversy, it doesn't necessarily mean all of those other factors are knocks purely against the car itself or somehow it's bad or worse than. Just as there are elements that have little or nothing to do with a car that can really help out, there are those that can also hurt.