HAWAII-TSX

I don't know where to put this thread and hopefully I put it in the right spot.

I am reading the article on the bmw 328 Audi A4 Infiniti G25 Mercedes C250 and Volvo s60 T6 AWD and am upset that they didn't put the TL SH-AWD with 6 spd manual in this comparison. I think it would have done pretty well. Just wanted to know if anyone else read this article and felt the same way. I feel it stood a chance at winning. Magazines never give Acura the credit it deserves. The fact that they didn't have any Acura in this comparo is slap in the face. I'm thinking about canceling my subscription based on this article.

Maybe I'm just sensitive.

alienstudio

acura definitely deserves more credit for the cars they built, especially the TL-SHAWD.

g37guy01

TL was missing from the Motor Trend comparo also.

If you want to magazines to validate you've got the best car, it'll never happen (manufacturer independent). You have to buy the car you want, knowing that vehicle is *the best one for you*.

Buffa

I was also disappointed in this article. It's been a while since they've had our car in any comparison article. In fact I don't believe I've seen a full test, only quick looks, with the 2012 mid cycle refresh, but maybe it's because it is only a mid cycle refresh. Still would like to see more though.

DannyZRC

with a setup like that it sounds like they were stacking it for the Volvo, but then probably gushed over the BMW anyway.

JM2010 SH-AWD

Agree. On paper, the Volvo seems to outclass the rest of this field. Same would be true for our car. Maybe that's why it was left out.

AudiophileJ

Are they testing rear wheel drive cars only?

jharrison

the cars that they select for these comparisons require some judgement and to me they messed up. They went with a TSX instead of a TL and a G25 instead of a G37 because they wanted to compare the based engine cars. But to me you absolutely have to look at price. The BMW was $50k and for that amount of money you can get a fully loaded G37 or TL and get change back. meanwhile getting a huge performance advantage over the TSX or G25. If I recall right, Car and Driver said that they got a fully loaded BMW because that's what BMW loaned them but in reality all of the BMW's advantages (which allowed it to finish #1 in the test) would have existed in a version of the car that was less loaded so therefore the comparison was valid. Here's my take: If we were all rich we'd all be driving M5s or E63s but the reality is that price is a huge factor in what we decide to drive. And I would put up a TL SH-AWD against any 3 series (except the M3).

eazy

iTrader: (8)

Car & Driver is always on BMW's cockadoodle doo. I've been subscribed to them for 5 years and they always pick BMW 99% of the time

DannyZRC

the T5 is the base S60, not the T6?

g37guy01

Maybe Acura is not loaning out cars and are waiting for my 2013 with the new sport shawd?

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

The only 2013 Acura that will have SH-SH-AWD is the full-model-change RLX (previously RL) sedan.

HAWAII-TSX

I totally agree which is why I was so frustrated in this article. I don't even drive a TL but think they automatically stacked the deck against Acura and all makes in for that matter by not putting the TL in and using the best BMW 328.

You messed up car and driver. The editor should be fired.

here's the link to the article if anyone didn't see

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests

DaChef320

iTrader: (1)

can you really compare the TL to a G25 or a S60 or even a Audi A4 no of course not TL is a class ahead of those it should be a TSX comparing to those cars IMHO

DaChef320

iTrader: (1)

a SH AWD TL should be compared to a AUDI A4 3.0T, Benz E350 , Lexus ES350/Gs350 Infiniti G37s , and BMW 335is that's what u compare a TL to OP

BEAR-AvHistory

Maybe its because they are all pretty new if not new models.....are all less then 3 liters & most are less then 2 liters (3 of them are 4 cylinder cars) and most people reading the magazine would not be all that interested in a 3.7 liter car with nothing new to offer at the end of its life cycle being in the test.

BTW the BMW lost from 4 to 8 points for being the most expensive car in the test.

HAWAII-TSX

i'm going based on price. for $50000 the tl sh-awd would be a much better car then the bmw328. I understand size class but if acura can build a larger better performing car for less money why not let acura show this by putting it in the camparo. that all i am saying. If not they should have tested a base bmw 328i to be fair to the others. and how close the scores are, I think the bmw would not have taken first.

HAWAII-TSX

again then they should have used a bmw328i closer in price to the rest and it prob would have lost the competition. If i were to spend $50000 i would not get a 328i.

Put a purebread in with muts and of course its gonna win. even the playing field by putting in better competition and that would have been a better test to show how good the new bmw really is.

DaChef320

iTrader: (1)

sounds like to me that your just not happy with BMW taking the win



its not really the price their really concern about its throughout the whole overall of the car that makes them comparable and BTW im sure BMW 328i does not cost 50k

HAWAII-TSX

you are right. its like a highschool team playing against a collage team. Who do you think is gonna win. All I am saying is the deck was stacked against all the rest of the competition. If a base bmw won the competition I would not have anything against it.

I owned three bmws' all great cars the best for the money? im not sure. I just thought car and driver would have had more integrity in there judgements. It clearly looks like a sell out on there part.

even on the article page look at who they put as top competitors.

BMW 3-series Research>
+ Overview
+ Price with Options
+ Specifications
+ Photos
+ Get a Free Quote>
+ View Cars for Sale

Top Competitors>
Acura TL
Audi A4 sedan
Cadillac CTS sedan
Mercedes-Benz C-class
Infiniti G37 sedan

Downloads>
Test Sheet
Complete Specs and Performance Dat

check out the price as tested on the article

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...ison-tests.pdf

$50,870 for the bmw.

DaChef320

iTrader: (1)

http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/conte...t/fuDH37Regg==

build yourself on if u can build one for 50k thats a shit load of options your adding on to the BMW 328i

BTW car and driver is on crack IMO i'll give u that

HAWAII-TSX

haha. thats what im saying... take that shit load of options out and the bmw would prob have lost.

With this article I just realized they have a crack problem... lol I just want them to seek some help so they can write some good helpful articles..

BEAR-AvHistory

Then C&D would have stepped up to the 335i & 335IS & the BMW or Audi would have won. The test was obviously about the new BMW 2.0 base engine so why not test it against similar engines instead of one nearly twice as big even if it does not have twice the power.

BTW Burger Motor Sports already has the 2.0 down to 5.1 seconds to 60 with a prototype N20 Juicebox knocking out 257whp (295BHP) & 280ftlbs on Stage I

Exactly what options would you have taken out to make it lose?

HAWAII-TSX

If the bmw or Audi won in that case it would have been fair.

All options. get the price down to base price which is where the other competition was. Take out sport package and premium package.

numbers for performance and comfort and features would have dropped making the bmw loose.

You have to atleast admit in this comparison the deck was stacked towards the bmw favor. All I am saying is this article was bogus and all the competion was there to loose. They put the bmw up to compete with underdogs to begin with. Not much of a win for the 328I if you ask me considering it only won by 5 points.

plus if you look at the article 1 of the 2 categories it took was subjective. It didn't even take the fun to drive catagory or performance.

OBVIOUSLY which is why they put the larger 6cyl volvo s60t6 awd in the camparo instead of the T5 or s40 4cyl. They wanted to test the base motors right???

winstrolvtec

No matter how they slice it, C&D should not score on the basis of subjectivity and while it's not possible for them to get apples to apples test cars, they should at least not score for equipment and options if it's not relatively even. This includes mis-matched sport packages and tires. Other than the S6 trim, it was not a terribly aligned comparo IMO.

As for the TL, there are reasons why it would fit this comparo and there are reasons why it wouldn't but I think it would have done well regardless, while being the only mid size sedan in the group and the also the heaviest, the same couple of reasons why I think they did well not to include it at the same time, but if the comparo was to disregard the size, and better aligned equipment and as tested price, the TL SH, A4 2.0T Quattro, G37, and 328 would have much of the same level of equipment and all be in between the $45k-$50k range. IMO that does help to highlight the value proposition of the TL and the G as well.

The TL is a hard car to group for a comparo though, the FWD fits well with the distinct group of entry level FWD mids like the Maxima, ES, LaCrosse, etc. The TL SH not so much. I don't have a problem with them putting the car next to a 335i, G37, or S4 all of the time, even though it's not a fundamental alignment nor are the base price points aligned with exception to the G, but the only thing that comparo has going for it is the perceived level of luxury and that they are sedans.

What gets me in those cases, is that it doesn't seem to bother publications that the S4 and 335 can reach an upwards of at least $12k more when comparably equipped and they are compacts which not only makes them a different size class but also warrants a performance advantage from the start but at the same time, you will never see them put a TL SH in a comparo that includes a 528i, base E350, etc or even loaded versions for that matter of 335ix's or A6's, etc. We are all fully aware of the differences between these cars in every regard but it should work both ways, no?

HAWAII-TSX

Well put. This is what bothered me about the article which could not get across as well as you just did.

It should go both ways and if it did the TL or Acuras for that matter would win more competitions. This one in point.

based on the guidelines they loosely followed for this article I expect the review of the new RLX to read like this . #1 stands in a class all its own. V8 power 6cyl fuel economy and torque vectoring all wheel drive. A new breed of vehicle is here. Acura created a new benchmark for all automobile manufactures to follow.

but honestly I expect the article to be a little more like this: They are going to put it up against $130,000 BMW 7 series and claim the 7 is more luxurious and larger offers more features and therefore uses more gas and doesn't handle as well but all in all the BMW wins because its bigger and all of the subjective reasons like it looks better and feels better.

Car and driver can make any article go in the direction they choose just by how they set up the comparison. It just bothers me that they have no integrity and are unfair to car manufactures. They should have two winners for every article. One based on facts and include subjective values and one based purely on facts. And no matter the comparison price should always be as close as possible. The $ does not hold the same value to one or another and value is purely subjective. Not to mention resale value and lease or purchase or finance offers so no way to accurately justify a large price difference.

IMO this review is rubbish and should be redone or thrown out. This review has no basis or real guidelines on what the comparison is all about. We are all assuming what it is about and that is what is creating my frustration.

MileHigh6MT

I've been reading C&D for 20 years. Recently, I drove every single car that would compare to a 6MT TL (including the 2T Audi, S4, 335, CTS, Volvo, etc). I would encourage you to do the same and then get back to me on whether you agree with C&D. Independent of price the TL is great. Once you factor in the price, it becomes a no brainer.

I love German cars and recently drove a w8, 330X and 535x. I had significant issues with the w8 and 5 series cars but was willing to own another. I drove the new 328 and laughed at how terrible the thing sounded. I just couldn't get over it. Yep, it is quick and fun, but there is no way I could own one. The 335 is sweet (styling is a bit boring) with more lag than previous N54 engine. I decided to save my money and consider going back to BMW if the new 3 series proves more reliable than old ones. For now, I cannot believe how much I like the TL 6MT. First Honda product I have owned and find myself laughing at those who are driving a 535 or Audi A6...what a waste of money, that is, unless you are just trying to impress others.

g37guy01

So your view is that people who buy a 535 or a6 are out to impress others? With the subtext being that TL purchasers are value conscience individuals who don't want to impress others?

JM2010 SH-AWD

Thanks for your perspective of having recently shopped a lot of these cars. (I hope you realize you are going to draw a lot of flack from a few members of the anti-TL club for spouting such heresy).

g37guy01

It's not this forum, Acura has lost the race. Why I don't know. If the aphorism "you can fool some of the people..." was really true, people would see through bmws slick marketing. Since we're assuming you can't fool 100% of the people 100% of the time BMW must be doing something right as it sells a ton of cars.

If Acura doesn't do the same thing, it may end up like Pontiac.

BEAR-AvHistory

Nah, you just don’t understand the logic used on this forum. If I read it once here I read it a hundred times that BMW's are all over the place just like Honda Civics but the TL is an exclusive car because you don’t see them everyday.

Meanwhile the Honda CEO bows, apologizes to the Emperor, breaks into tears & commits Seppuku.

winstrolvtec

Perhaps it is not just this forum but then Acura must be doing something right also, with so many deticated haters. Many here don't find the need to chime in around a deticated fan base of car buyers of which one does not personally own, so I guess they are all missing something that the TL has as well.

As far as many others are concerned, I don't find a need to complain about what Acura does or doesn't do when another brand who has what I'm looking for has a dealership nearby. The difference is I do not go blaming others for not offering cheaper priced, better equipped FWD vehicles, or torque vectoring AWD on anything less than $50k+ or with a manual as well, for example.

Lost what race? Is it over? They are not a top 3 luxury brand in terms of sales but neither are Infiniti or Audi for that matter, so not everybody can "win". Acura doesn't have to worry about going down the road of Pontiac, not any more than most.

That's just it, the majority can't see past the marketing, much like Apple. Great products but by themselves are not the main reasons for their success. You can't fool them all nor do you need to for that matter, just the majority. This thread topic is pure example of that, people are told what to buy because it's known that most don't know any better or if you can sell them on the popularity or image factor, the rest doesn't matter as much. Otherwise no company would bother to market themselves or their products in this way. This applies to Honda/Acura as well but it's not as much of a factor for them compared to some others.

And I'm not knocking that, it's an accomplishment all by itself but it's no coincendence that when you see people remove all that extra stuff or don't buy into that, where they just focus on the product vs product and mostly the objective stuff, it's not uncommon that you see comments and conclusions like the one from MileHigh above. Naturally, you have to like the car and it has to fit your lifestyle but there is a fine line there. I believe that might be a reason why you personally got a G as opposed to a 3 series.

A first hand example is in you saying "they lost but I don't know why", that's exactly the same thing as saying others won but I don't know why. It doesn't appear to be an overly objective quality or qualities. That's not to say everyone who buys said brand(s) only buys it for the wrong reasons. There are many in which the choice was exactly what they wanted, needed and fits their lifestyle perfectly as well as their budget but it's not the majority.

As opposed to the logic at BMW forums, where if you ask for a complete and through analysis of what makes their car objectively superior than a competitor's car, they can probably come up with, "well, that's easy, it's a BMW".

g37guy01

Exactly. Acura should have that brand cache. When people say BMW there is an expectation of chassis being faster than the car as well as the legendary BMW road feel.

What brand identity does Acura have? They need that brand cachet and their vehicles have done poorly in comparos thus not helping brand cache.

BEAR-AvHistory

+1 Add Mercedes to that along with Audi. Audi has to have premium branding cache to get the premium prices people are willing to pay for them. Or you can always swap in Lexus for Audi if you want to keep it to three.

Lack of branding cache has been illustrated by the 100 & 200 unit sales numbers when Honda tried to get premium pricing for the RL? You really have to wonder what Honda did or did not do to make the car end up where it has regarding customer respect & acceptance.

HAWAII-TSX

[QUOTE=g37guy01;13684453]It's not this forum, Acura has lost the race. Why I don't know. If the aphorism "you can fool some of the people..." was really true, people would see through bmws slick marketing. Since we're assuming you can't fool 100% of the people 100% of the time BMW must be doing something right as it sells a ton of cars.[QUOTE]

I agree that BMW is good at what they do and does sell or LEASE a lot of cars but car and driver should not have let bmw loan them a loaded car that costs $50800.00 and then say it wins by 5 points over the others which costs thousands less. Had they had a base Bmw 328 which IMO is more comparable with the other cars tested I think the results would have been a lot different.

Look at the G25 they put in the article. It rated best in chassis and fun to drive(which is subjective). They should have used a G37 which would bring the gap in price closer to the BMW and would have made a better comparison and article. They knocked the G37 engine in a way to defend there choice, but wouldn't you have rather just seen them put it to the test instead of making prejudgements... If they really didn't know which (G25 or G37) would compete against the BMW328I better they should have included both in the competition. That would have been the responsible thing to do. Or they could just added cars to this competition via data they already had from previous tests and score them in and removing subjective info. This would have gave readers more facts to make their own judgments.

Agree that they have this brand image but as you can see in the article this BMW 328I did not win in that category.

Steering was rated poorly and the G25 won in fun to drive category.

Car and Driver set this article up for the BMW to win so they get paid advertising by BMW. Editors are no longer being paid by subscribers. Its all the advertising revenue that keeps them in business. Had they made the BMW loose Bmw would think twice when advertising.

Magazines are no longer objective and have just become a marketing tool. I wish we had a magazine to read that had some integrity in there writing.

We are all being programed by these large companies making it unfair for manufactures building better products but being bullied by larger companies with deeper pockets.

g37guy01

What about the motor trend comparo? If what youre saying is true comparos where the TL wins should be disregarded also because magazines are just tools. So basically except for cr there is no expectation of objectivness. And cr doesn't even recommend the TL shawd.

gkon

I googled TL comparisons & came up with the following, slightly outdated, though.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/co...door-firepower

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...quattro-page-3

I couldn't find anything more recent, but it seems like the TL doesn't get the respect when included.

Nick

Just found this comparison, comparing a 2010 SH-AWD to an S4. I think this one is a little more fair. Sorry about the double post, I couldn't edit my last post.

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...4/viewall.html

HAWAII-TSX

Sorry I didn't read the Motor trend article and so I can't say anything.

This article just got me because I could not understand what the article was comparing and to declare a winner given the diversity of the bunch seemed crazy. Especially because the winner won by 5 points.

To be defensive and write in the article that they opt for the lower G25 for certain reason shows the reviewers themselves were questioning there decisions and when its that close, all of these choices make a difference. As reviewers and editors, they have a responsibility to give an accurate and FULL informed review of what they are trying to test or compare, and in my eyes they just didn't do that.

It really just seemed like a paid advertisement for the BMW328I which makes them a sell out and quite honestly tells me that if you don't buy a $50000. BMW 328I You are not driving the best car out of the cars in this article. Had they tested a base BMW 328I the car would have been dethroned.

I am just criticizing the article on how it was judged, based and written. Throwing the Acura TL Sh-awd into the comparison is not off base because they really was no rules set up in the article on how they chose the competitors and I just wanted to see where it landed with these cars.

I do subscribe to CR and fill in my auto questionnaire every year. I don't know why the TL sh-awd is not recommended but I at least trust that there is a justified reason being that its in CR.

That was a well written article. Thanks for the great read.

BEAR-AvHistory

All the cars in the article run adds in C&D. Do you really think C&D would deliberately skew a test to BMW & piss off a whole bunch of other advertisers? People should not depend on magazines to validate their car of choice because in most cases they will be left disappointed.

HAWAII-TSX

I agree on some points not on others.

I think C&D skewed the test to make sure BMW 328I would win.

I don't think they want to piss off other advertisers. So they just put models in which are arguably the same but will loose. This way the advertisers can't be upset when they loose. Infiniti will just say hey look at how cheap our G25 is compared to that overpriced 4 cyl bmw and yet its sill more fun to drive and has better steering etc.... They just didn't request the G37 cause they know we would have dethroned the BMW again. etc...

I really don't use magazines to validate my choices. Look at the cars i've driven. All never reviewed well. my 05 bmw 525 was reported ugly and slow. my 07 bmw 550 was reported ugly and never won anything for performance although it drove well for the time (it was a gas guzzler). My 08 bmw X5 was bumpy slow didn't handle well ate a lot of gas not to mention mechanical problems. my 10 Acura TL fwd tech was reported ugly and cluttered with buttons. My 10 ZDX advance well not much reports at all and of the few most say the thing is weird and has a small unusable back seat not to mention over priced. So I am really not going for validation just rational facts. Seriously if I were going for validation id prob drive a 3 series. Maybe the new 335is when it comes out. But honestly prob not I like to be different. Maybe when I'm older and wiser I will just go with what magazines says is best for me maybe a toyota camry.

I'm just going to ask everyone who reads this to please answer the following.

1. Did you read this car and driver article:

2. Do you think the cars in this competition are priced as comparably as possible:

3. Do you think the best versions were chosen to compete(ex:g25 vs g37):

4. Do you think the BMW would have won if it were a base model more similar in price with the rest:

5. Would you have liked to see the 2012 Acura TL Sh-Awd advance package in this comparison:

6. Could you have chosen a current model car in the luxury 4dr. sport sedan class for $50,800.00 msrp that could have beat the BMW328I.

Please post res poses.