silverTL6

iTrader: (2)

It seems these cars are fairly similar on paper, so what were your thoughts when comparing the two? Here are mine:

- interior: TL hands down. S4's looks like it was stolen from a 92-96 Camry with questionable ergonomics.
- power: S4 with its extra torque advantage (forced induction FTW).
- handling: S4 has slight edge w/ optional sport differential and tidier dimensions.
- value: toss-up compared to base S4 (~$45k). You get slightly more toys with TL, but slightly more performance with S4.
- exterior: S4 has slight edge as it's less polarizing but arguably more bland.

For those that cross-shopped these cars, which did you end up choosing and why?

Pete2010

I didn't cross shop - but I would say that from a handling perspective, that recent automotive.com article from the other thread has some impressive numbers from the TL and its handling. Even though the S4 has so much more straight out raw power, the TL was only less than a second behind it on the lap times.

But everything else on the list I think you nailed, although I love the look of the S4, I couldn't justify the extra price, and my rear passengers love me for the extra rear seat room.

Edit - this link:
http://sportscarforums.com/f11/autom...tml#post970683

TechnoCat

I did essentially cross-shop, having had an A4Q 2.8 6MT, then an S4 6MT, then an A4Q 3.0 6MT. Wanted another Audi, but the S4 is brutal and pricey, and the TL isn't.

My comparison at the time was:

• Similar prices
• Audi slightly better performance, but largely the same
• Acura much larger comparably equipped
• Audi much more expensive
• Acura interior looks higher-tech
• There's no REplacement for DISplacement
• Acura ride more comfortable. (Seriously.)

So I went with the TL. Months on in, I would amend this to...

• Audi more expensive, but comes with more luxuries
• Acura doors sound tinny, cubbies are not padded and so rattle, no under-seat drawers
• Acura seats don't fold and trunk not flat
• No interval signals on Acura. (Tap the level, get three clicks. Very convenient when you're used to it.)
• No headlight washers on Acura
• No electrically-folding mirrors on Acura. (This is a big deal for me when I pick up the mail from the locking mailbox in my car.)
• Audi iPod interface far better.
• Flat trunk floor in Audi
• Back heater, not just butt-heater, in Audi
• Both AWD systems perform well in dry, Acura maybe better, but Audi Quattro is far superior in bad weather.
• Audi has headlight washers
• Audi has sun blocker above rear view mirror
• Quieter sun/moonroof in Audi
• More solid feeling light-block in sun roof in Audi
• Acura seats more comfortable
• But Audi head-restraints more comfortable (by FAR)
• Audi engine feels smoother, has more low-end torque
• Acura engine sounds more sporty
• Both are fugly. Acura slightly less conservative, but neither is good looking.
• Both manual trannies are good.
• I prefer the Acura's central control system over the Audi one.
• Audi comes with more prestige than Acura.

Bottom line: You get what you pay for. The Audi S4, equipped correctly, is about $11K more than the Acura TL SH-AWD 6MT. And you get a lot more for that money. But it is a lot of money. Oddly, this makes BMW look like a good value to me.

Most of these are luxury issues, though, not performance or safety issues. (And the TL does, to me, have a more comfortable ride.)

If I had to do it over again, I'd still get the beak painted, and have them throw in a set of previous-gen head restraints plus reduce the price a bit more. The TL is a fine car; it's just not (in my opinion) a luxury car like the S4... and the price reflects that.

carguyrob

I have been cross shopping the two cars, both in a 6 spd manual. I was able to test drive a S4 without a salesman in the car. It is an absolutely AMAZING car. It feels like a complete rocketship off the line and exiting out of corners. It also feels far more nimble than the TL SH-AWD (I drove right before the S4). It is actually a very impressive machine. I even put an order in and a deposit down on an ordered 2011.

And then there is the huge difference in price.

TL SH-AWD w/HPT ~$44K retail, sells for about $39K after discounts and rebates
S4 comparably equipped ~55K retail, sells for about $53K after discounting

The Automobile article made me think twice about the $14K difference between the two cars. I then cancelled my order 48 hours later and got my deposit back.

I just have to wait and see what Acura might come out with for 2012 in April of next year.

carguyrob

Great comparison! Maybe I am missing something though... I didn't see any power folding mirrors or headlight washers on the 2010-11 S4. I also didn't see any additional luxury features on a $55K Audi over the $44K TL SH-AWD except for a little better quality in the feel of the materials. If you want things like a power rear sunshade, rear airbags, Audi Driver Select...those all add to the price and drive it over $60K.

Six Shifter

plus the fact that you have to pony up the addit $ to get a decent sounding Audio (if anything factory could ever be considered 'decent')

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I think only serious enthusiasts would ever cross shop the two.

Anyway:

carguyrob

I firmly believe that most car buyers that go out of their way to get a TL or a S4 in a 6-spd manual are serious car enthusiasts.

MyT6MT

+1

JM2010 SH-AWD

Somebody better jump in here fast - so far this is developing as a flameless, reasonably unbiased comparison of the 4G to a German car.

We can't have that, can we?

Tyresian

Well both are very nice cars. I'd LOVE an S4, actually, I really really want an S5, but FORGET the price. It's too expensive for me. In the end, it ends up costing quite a bit more.

And cross shopping the TL and the S4, if price wasn't a matter, would make it a lot harder for me. Which is a huge point towards the TL. I do wish the TL didn't have so much cheap plastic, and the dash looks... cheap... But otherweise I am very very happy with my TL SH-AWD Tech.

On a side note, I drove a base TL today as a loaner while I got my midnight chrome grill and read trim put on. The base TL without Tech... Is terrible. My base 3G was much much nicer. It felt so cheap and just... wrong... I did drive a base 4G with tech a few months ago. Which pretty much let me decide that there was no way I wasn't getting the Tech package. It just kinda sucks that it costs so much to get what you do in it. I mean I didn't NEED the Nav and all that. It is nice, but I don't feel like it was neccessarily worth the whole cost. But I did need the nicer leather, and keyless entry is really really nice. Built in nav is convienent.

jasonwdp10

If price wasn't a matter i'd pick an Audi S5 no questions asked. My gf's 3 year old A5 has zero problems and she just takes it in for routine maintenance, so to me, reliability isn't an issue.

fsttyms1

I disagree on the TL part of that.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

The manuals maybe, but the vast majority will be bought in automatic and will probably end up in the hands of people that want something stylish, sporty, and luxurious.

Enthusiast? I don't know, but it certainly will attract more enthusiasts being that it does offer a manual.

JM2010 SH-AWD

Agree. The percentage of cars sold with MTs these days is minimal and declining. They're hard to find, even on some BMWs. My local Infiniti dealers couldn't even muster up a 6 speed G37 for me to test, much less offer any hope of actually getting one in stock to sell.

In short, one has to go out of his way to find a MT; those who do so are clearly not run of the mill car buyers.

Apologies for the hi-jack detour.

docboy

I agree.

docboy

IMHO:

-Interior: TL wins, roomier interior, and more "business/tech like" decour. The Audi interior is fine, but I never understand the excellence part about it.
-Power: S4 wins, more torque available at lower RPMs = easier daily driving
-Handling: IMHO, TL wins here, esp on dry pavement. Audi's Quattro is pretty awesome though, esp on wet pavement. Though the TL is larger than the S4, the SH-AWD makes up for the large dimensions
-Value: TL wins here IMHO. Apple for apples, the S4 will cost you >$10k comparably equipped.
-Exterior: I agree, S4 is less polarizing, and is IMHO a good looking car; the TL's design is controversial and discussed ad naueseum, but IMHO, in a few years, the S4 will "look older" than the 4G TL.

In the end, I chose the TL because I didn't want to fork up an additional $10k+, I wanted the extra passenger room in the driver's side and for the wife and kid, and I wasn't sold on Audi's daily reliability.

I bought the TL 6MT when it was first released and paid a premium for it (and took a huge loss when I traded in a POS and the most uncomfy 2009 Lexus IS 250 AWD [the AWD differential intruded a hump in the driver's footwell, which rendered my right leg/knee/hip so painful, I couldn't drive the dam car). The TL is reasonably comfy, but for some reason, I'm getting a little tingling/soreness in my right leg. No where near as bad as the IS, but it's noticeable; I'm constantly playing w/the seating adjustments to no avail right now. If anyone has ideas on this leg issue, I'm all ears, but I'm wondering if the center console is a bit thick and impinges some footwell space.

The 335xi was actually my first choice, but I got scared off by the HPFP issues.

It's great to know that now that the S4 and TL 6MT having been garnering camparos. That itself speaks volumes.

miketala

are you physically fit? seriously, doing the right exercises with a good personal trainer might be able to fix this. good luck.

silverTL6

iTrader: (2)

Good to see lots of unbiased input here. As for the value equation, it'll never be an apples-to-apples comparison no matter how closely the cars are equipped.

For the average Joe the "better value" could mean more interior space and reliability. For enthusiasts that could mean a stock supercharged engine and better weight distribution.

On the bright side, both cars actually look much better in person. Each have subtle detailing that just isn't captured in pics. The TL's overhangs somehow shrink a bit, and the S4's body panels look more curvaceous.

Which makes that much harder to choose one

carguyrob

I think most of the opinions here are based on what people have heard from others and read in car mags (particularly the Automobile magazine article that compared the two cars). After driving both cars back-to-back within the same hour (both 6 spd manuals), I would say that some of the comments above are way off the mark.

The TL felt huge in comparison to the S4 which in turn translated to a much less exciting handling experience. The S4 also felt like it had 80hp more than the TL (not just 28hp). The styling of the S4 is also very sharp in person. The lower edge of the front and back ends has a knife-like silver strip that looks very custom and aggressive.

My big issue was the massive price delta. The $56K S4 really didn't offer any additional features (that a number of people here said it has) for the extra $11K sticker price or $13K in negotiated price.

YetiTL

Get a good physical assessement by a good strength coach or trainer. Most likely due to overly tight psoas which cause your hamstrings to stretch. The nerves then get irritated and it gets real unconfortable. I would do:

1) 2-3 times per day, stretch your psoas with deep but not too painful static stretches (30 seconds each side)
2) stretch the quadriceps, hamstrings, glutes and every muscles in your legs;
3) Strengthen your hamstrings, glutes, lowerback and abs.
4) Enjoy a life free of back pain!

Might take a while to see the benefits, look at 4-6 months or something like that.


-YetiTL

JM2010 SH-AWD

Don't know if you discovered this during your test, but the SH-AWD requires a slightly different driving style in corners to put its advantages to good use. Just when you think you should be braking, you need to be on the throttle pretty aggressively. That's when the beauty of the system really comes to the fore (and when things get exciting).

Good luck on your choice. Both nice cars, but you're right, the $ delta really does stand out.

TechnoCat

You can't get apples-to-apples. There are many features standard in the S4 that are not available in the TL at all. Many of them are little things in terms of cost and banner, but important in terms of livability impact, at least to me.

smarty666

I know when I took my Max on a long road trip a few months ago, despite how comfortable and supportive the front seats are, no matter how comfortable your car seats are, if your sitting and driving in a car long enough you'll get uncomfortable. A few hours into the trip, I realized and forgot that my front seat had a thigh extender on it. I ws getting the same type of soreness in my leg at the time that your describing. As soon as I put out the thigh extender the pain got better and did not get worse again. I can't remember if the TL has thigh extenders or not but if it does you should try it and see if it makes a difference. Definitely would recommend using it for anything more than 1 hour trips in the car!

a4ken

my 2010 tl has headlight washers

carguyrob

I do agree that the cars have different target markets in life, but it is pretty amazing how similar in execution they are (other than the size).

I have been comparing the two cars based on features on the websites for a couple weeks now and I can't seem to find ANY features (except expensive optional ones) that come standard on the S4 and not on the TL SH-AWD. You even have to upgrade to a S4 Prestige (starts at $52K) before you can get the proximity entry with push button start and memory seats...both standard on the TL SH-AWD. If you know of any features that I am missing, please let me know...

graphicguy

I did....as well as the A4/5.

TL vs S4....both very nice cars. Straight line performance, the S4 has the advantage. Most cohesive and overall best ride/handling, the TL SH-AWD.

Interior....tough call. Seats in the TL were much better. TL has nicer finishing touches like a cover for the cup holders. UI of Audi's screen is better. TL stereo worlds better than the one in the S4. S4 has some unique features like MMI. Don't know if it's better or worse than the TL's buttons. I got used to the TL's buttons in less than a day. MMI in the S4 was easy to understand pretty much immediately.

Exterior....both have big grills. Many like the LED lights of the Audi. Personally, I don't care one way or another about them. Again, TL has nicer finishing touches as better looking door handles. But, I'll be a lemming and give the styling nod to the S4.

Build.....toss up. Both are very good.

Generally....

-didn't feel nearly as cramped in the TL vs the S4. Ride.....the edge goes to the S4. Reliability....I don't think there's any question that goes to the TL. I've just known way too many people who've had recent examples of both an A4 and an A6 who've sworn they'll never buy another Audi because of the amount of time they've spent in the dealership's service dept.

Then, there's the biggy....PRICE. That's a pretty big gap between the TL SH AWD and the S4. A few tenths 0-60 advantage isn't going to make the $10K+ price difference any easier to swallow.

So, that's why I'm in a TL SH AWD.....and glad I made that choice.

jasonwdp10

The Keyless Access System comes with the tech package.. not standard on the SH-AWD..

TechnoCat

Just look for previous posts from me. So many of the features aren't the type that show up on website comparisons.

For example, and just to pick a few... a website may say, "Sun/moonroof: Check". But not "Noise level from moonroof open with a rear window also open: 92dB vs 78dB" (hyperbole, not real numbers.)

And a website may say, "Both have plenty of interior storage", but won't say, "S4 has padded cubbies, while even the TL's sunglasses cubby is hard plastic apparently designed to enable-and-amplify rattles of glasses-on-plastic".

Or the site will say, "Cargo space: 24 cu.ft", while more useful might be... "S4: 24 cu.ft total cargo, flat trunk, folding rear seats. Can hold four full size golf bags or two assembled weed whackers. TL: 26 cu.ft including back seats, which do not fold. AWD version lacks flat trunk floor. Can hold one golf bag, no weed whackers."

And note that no review site specifies how quickly they can reach the song "Werewolves of London" by "Warren Zevon" on a fully loaded iPod. (Which, in my experience, is fastest in the Lincoln MKZ - just speak "Song Werewolves of London" and it starts. Seriously.) That's incredibly painful on a fully-loaded iPod in the TL, because there's no voice search and no alpha-search. You must scroll through every artist (not just A, B, but Abba, AC/DC, Anthrax, ...), six to a screen though you can move quicker than that.

The websites give you the 20000ft level view. At that level, the TL is much like an S4. And a 1980 Yugo is much like a VW Golf. The closer you get, the more details emerge.

carguyrob

Thanks for the clarification Technocat.

I don't think of most of the things you described as features. I was thinking of features as things like rain sensing wipers, power side mirrors, cooled seats, etc. Those are the small intrinsic details that most car buyers don't become aware of until long after the check clears on their car purchase. Those finer details are very nice, but hard to justify for an extra $10K+.

TechnoCat

I agree, mostly because all those finer details would only cost maybe $2500 together for Acura to have done correctly... but it is painful missing them after having them for 15 years or so. Having another trim-line, perhaps a "TL SH-AWD Tech 6MT Lux" package that did all the small bits correctly and added $4500 to the price, would be worth it. But then Acura would be pointing out that they didn't have them on their "Smart Luxury" sedan.

docboy

???

I'm all open to ideas, but I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm not physically fit. I'm not physically unfit, if that's what you mean. I'm 5'11", 165lbs. Definitely not a professional athlete, but I jog, run, and play basketball/tennis/occasionally lift weights.

In contrast, I'm able to drive my wife's RX330, a loaner 2010 MDX Tech, and my former 1G TSX with absolutely no problems to my right leg.

I've noticed from the RX and MDX they have plenty of footwell space, and the center console doesn't into the driver's footwell/right leg space; compared to the TL where there the amount of free leg space and movement is less than the RX and MDX. Who knows, maybe I'm just becoming sensitive to my environment, or I'm developing PAD.

Any seat adjustment ideas?

OP and mods, sorry for the hijack....

docboy

Whew, I'm glad we can relate and I'm not the odd ball out

Are you aware of any external/aftermarket thigh extender?

The duration of my driving is typically nothing more than a 35min one way daily commute to the offcie (times 2 for the drive back home).

saw1

I looked at both along with the G37. The lease on my '07TL-s was running out.

The S4 was my favorite, but it had just come out, no deals to be made, and the packaging was strange. To get an S4 with the same equipment as the G or the TL you were in the upper 50's. I ended up with the G37, mainly because I wanted a change from my past two Acura's.

There are a few features I miss from the old TLs, mainly the ability to use the nav screen full function while driving. Otherwise, the G37 is a blast to drive with similar quality to the TL. I really wanted the S4 but could not justify the price (not an affordability issue, just a value issue).

George Knighton

Exactly. You have to get an S4 with the sport differential, the only way to get vectoring AWD, and quite a few other options to get the same equipment level you have in the 4G TL SH-AWD 6-6.

Acura2010

Because of pricing in Canada, i cross shoped the A4 2.0T. With the options i wanted (sport pkg, premium pkg etc) it would have been about $51,000 canadian. My TL SH-AWD was listed for $46,000. So between the two, it was a no brainer. TL Hands down. TL had all the features that the equipped A4 i was looking at would have, plus a 3.7L 305hp engine. the S4 probably be a different story. The S4 Premium STARTS at $58,900. So i didn't even attempt to look at it. Canadian pricing sucks!

ieh

too bad for the TL owners in US that who wants one