BigWopHH

Hey Everyone,

I've posted the story of my creaky TL in a couple of spots before, but there's a new wrinkle to the saga and I'm in need of some advice. I would especially love to hear from someone who works at a dealership, or someone who has dealt with a similar situation.

Just to reiterate, I got my car at the end of July--'09 WDP TL SH-AWD w/ Tech, full underbody kit, all season mats, and dealer-installed tint. After having the car for a couple of weeks, I noticed an annoying creaking sound that I thought was just something loose in the headliner. Turned out to be a broken weld on the driver's side B-pillar. After about 3 weeks total, and four trips to the service department where they ultimately stripped my interior down to bare metal, the dealership, in conjunction with a body shop the dealership works with, was able to pinpoint and fix the problem. Or so I thought.

A few weeks after getting the car back, I thought I heard a different noise coming from the same spot on the car. Then I noticed on the outside of the car, the metal was getting wavy on the A-pillar, just above where the broken weld was. At the same time, I noticed a new creaking noise coming from the rear, passenger side of the car. I assumed the weld had broken again and having driven for a couple thousand miles, the stress and constant bouncing caused the waviness in the metal on the A-pillar. And that the new noise coming from the rear was just something unrelated in the rear deck.

Well, I dropped the car off on Dec. 1 to get it all checked out and fixed (along with two other minor problems with my shifter and run-roof cover), and here I am, essentially a month later and not only is the car still at the dealership, and still not fixed, but they just told me they haven't even been able to pinpoint the new noise. I assume it's another broken weld because they have the interior in the rear stripped down to bare metal again with the seats removed, and they say it's definitely "two pieces of metal hitting each other".

I had already been in contact with the New York State attorney general's office inquiring about Lemon Law protection during the first round of repairs and am 100% certain I could go that route and get my money back on the car. I don't feel like jumping through hoops, going through arbitration, and dealing with a government agency though.
I haven't gotten a clear answer from the dealership (yet) as to whether or not they'd be willing to help a return customer (I bought my CL from the same place). But here's what I want to float by the dealership. I want the exact same car, so I want to see if they'd be willing to give me an identically configured new TL SH-AWD, with the same options. And then I'd spring for some additional upgrades like the 19" Diamond Cut Wheels and maybe Remote Start so the dealership can make back at least a little money.

Do you think that's fair? Am I shortchanging myself?

PsychDoc

Take it to Lemon Law arbitration and take your money.

When you're in a cash position, you're in charge.

Any other position you find yourself in leaves you at a distinct disadvantage.

bw5556

I agree with PsychDoc

I'm not being flippant, but do YOU think its fair? Even if the dealership were to replace the vehicle, why do YOU think they should they profit? I haven't read your other posts, but to me it seems neither fair nor reasonable for them to profit. You aren't inconveniencing them; their job is to repair your vehicle.

Is dealership management/owners and/or the service manager involved? How long do they expect to take to diagnose the problem? Have you contacted Acura corporate? Did the dealer give you an equivalent loaner vehicle? Why haven't they diagnosed the problem after 30 days? Are they relying solely (assumed) on a third-party body shop?

3 years ago on my last vehicle, I had to have my left front suspension replaced several times. The problem started before the car had 500 miles on it. They were ready to put a call in to Honda to send someone out to diagnose the issue but luckily figured it out before it came to that.

crxb

acura needs to buy this car back

I mean broken weld?

remember acura replaced another 09 TL for a member had engine damage due to a mis machined pulley for the timing belt

chaiwala

When you lemon law the car, Acura/Honda buys back the car. What you are talking about is holding the dealership and the mfg accountable. That won't work. If you want the dealership to swap the cars for free, no way in hell will they do that. Now your dealership can contact Acura and give you one hell of a deal to put you in another TL but it will still cost you some money. The only way to recoup all your $$ is to go the lemon law route. I agree this would be a hassle and a cumbersome experience

BigWopHH

I don't think the dealership should profit, necessarily. Was just thinking that if there was some incentive on their part to make at least a few bucks they'd be more inclined to help out. (ultimately, they're still going to lose money though--the car has 3K miles on it, and they've obviously invested a lot of time into trying to repair it.


The service manager is involved, but not the dealership owner. I tried talking to the dealership manager and he just pushed me back to the service manager.

They have no idea.

I did initially, yes, but haven't yet during this second round of repairs. I have a call in, but they're closed until Monday.

Sort of, yes. They gave me a FWD TL. Little dirty and beat up, but still a TL.

I can only guess incompetence. Three times they've called to say it was back from the body shop, only to call back later in the day to say the car was back together and still had a problem.

I believe so, yes. The car is actually at a second body shop now which supposedly has a tool that can help pinpoint where sounds are coming from.

bw5556

What a headache! I wouldn't even want the car back. Every time I hear a noise I'd think broken weld. At this point, I would just run the idea by the dealership. The worst thing that will happen is that they'll say "No" but at least you'll have peace-of-mind from having asked. Hopefully Acura and dealership can work something out to save you the hassle of going through the lemon law process. Good luck; I hope you can get everything resolved.

ESHBG

First off, BigWopHH, I am really sorry to hear about these issues you are having! One definitely does not expect things like this when you spend this kind of money and when you pay for the Acura name. Trust me, I know.

I agree with the others and you should not worry about the dealership; worry about yourself, your safety and being treated fairly for the money you have spent. A bad weld compromises your safety and every single person who ever rides in your car. You simply cannot put a price on that.

I would speak to your dealership and also call Acura and let them know that you have already been in contact w/ your state's AG office and are about to file. Let them know that you have had a good experinece w/ Acura before now and that is why you are giving them one last chance to make this right before you file: and making this right is nothing less than buying the car back because your safety has been jeopardized. I would NEVER want a brand new car that has a bad weld that can't be fixed right, and has been torn apart and put back together numerous times.

MyT6MT

I agree with this 100%. You should do exactly that.You have been more than accomidating while they have been trying to troubleshoot your cars problem. But enough is enough. It's time for some action from both the dealer and yourself.

You didn't pay all that money to have a car with such problems. It's time for you to start pushing back and get what you paid for! Go get'em!

BigWopHH

Thanks for all of the advice. I'll be on the horn first thing Monday with Acura HQ. I'll keep everyone updated as to how this all work out...

Piotr_W

Hi Acura does not give a f*** about your car so the dealership. You are wasting time. I had 2004 TL that was a lemon. The only way to get brand new car i a lemon law lawyer. Lemon law is free. You do not pay for an attorney, Acura pays them. This is the website http://www.lemonlawclaims.com/. His name is Howard (973) 598-1980 He helped me get brand new 06 TL
You can pm me if you need more info.

graphicguy

Man, really sorry to hear about your woes. Dealership isn't going to take a $40K+ bath by giving you a new car gratis, on what amounts to a manufacturing defect (like broken welds). They'll tell Acura corporate they tried to fix it but couldn't.

I don't know how it's done in your state, but I had to "lemon" a Cadillac STS awhile ago (power surges through the rear window defroster kept literally blowing out the rear window). They stripped out the old wiring (after tearing apart my interior) rewired it....even put in two new rear windows. Still wasn't fixed.

Anyway, in OH they use BBB for arbitration (in reality, they're just a conduit for the flow of information from you, to the manufacturer's Rep, to the dealership). Dealership told me once I filed for lemon law, they were no longer involved. And, that the issue was now between Cadillac and me.

After 2 months, they finally agreed I had a lemon. However, Cadillac said I had had 10 months of usage of the car and they were going to deduct my usage from the amount the car cost. That didn't fly with me, either.

You're not going to be dealing with the dealership much at this juncture. You're going to be dealing with Acura corporate. But, you will want the dealership's cooperation, as they're going to have input for the Acura Regional rep to make a determination.

Stick to your guns. What you want is either a full refund, or a new car with no money coming out of your pocket. Again, they may say there's a difference in price between an '09 and a '10 model that you must eat. And, they'll probably try to "ding" you for some amount related to your actual usage of your "lemon" car.

It takes longer. You'll get frustrated. And they'll try to wait you out, but stick to your original demands. Remember, this issue is now between you and Acura, not you and the Acura dealer.

Piotr_W

After 2 months, they finally agreed I had a lemon. However, Cadillac said I had had 10 months of usage of the car and they were going to deduct my usage from the amount the car cost. That didn't fly with me, either.
In my case after almost 2 years i have transferred all my payments to a new car. Yes it is possible.Do not agree to any deductions it is not your fault. I would not be counting on getting money back, brand new car yes. I had to pay taxes at the end of it. Whole process took about 9 monts

BigWopHH

Wow, it took 9 months for the whole Lemon Law process? Holy crap. Does anyone have experience with the Lemon Law process in NY?

Piotr_W

All info you need is in post #11 Click on the link or call that guy

graphicguy

Piot.....wow....2 years. That's really dragging it out and stalling you.

In my case with the Caddy, I had another car I could use. So, I could survive not having the STS in my garage. Cadillac tried to drag it out thinking the STS was my only vehicle to use. I had financed it through GMAC. The last time the rear window blew out (3rd time overall), and after 4-5 visits with the Cadillac regional rep, I finally parked it at the dealership and told them it was their problem to deal with since they couldn't fix the car to my satisfaction. I also notified GMAC that I was involved in lemon negotiations. They told me that the issue had nothing to do with them.

As this progressed, I told GMAC that they were part of GM, just like Cadillac was. They threatened to sue me, ding my credit, all sorts of nasty stuff. That is, until I sent them pictures of the rear window glass all over the trunk lid and back seat, as well as rain entering the car with no rear window. I sent a letter to BBB arbitration office, the dealership, GMAC, and Cadillac corporate, along with the pictures, and a detailed description of the failed attempts to fix it. That was just one issue. The Nav system never did work right (would constantly freeze up on me). Adding to the electrical issue with the rear window defroster, the power seats had a mind of their own. I'd be driving along, with both hands on the steering wheel, and the seats would move up or back while driving. That was a safety issue. Of course, none of this would happen while the service tech, or the Cadillac regional rep would drive it.

In short, the car was a disaster.

They ended up sending me a refund for the payments, taxes, and license costs...essentially, every penny I had paid up until that point. It took another month (3 months in total) to get the check. That's how I bought my '05 TL.

About 3 months after that, I got a call from Cadillac corporate and GMAC wondering where the car was. I told them the last known place was at the selling dealership. Never heard another word after that. GMAC didn't ding my credit (even though I withheld two monthly payments, and their written threats to do so). Never heard another word from them after that.

If I can offer any advice, be firm, be patient, and don't accept anything less than a total refund. Cadillac made a couple of attempts to send me from few hundred dollars up to $2,000 to sign a waiver to my lemon law arbitration claims.

If they do that, don't accept it. Let the process run its course. It will take awhile, but you have a good case (broken welds) that could be a safety issue.....particularly in an accident. That's the point I would emphasize with them. Manufacturers get real nervous when safety issues are involved.

GrigioTL

I had a similar issue with a former vehicle and the manufacturer repurchased the car. The first thing you need to do is check your state lemon law. In my state, the dealership must be given at least four attempts to fix the car and/or the car must have been out of service for at least 30 days. Some manufacturers prefer to settle the case without involving a lemon law attorney which was true in my case.

I would suggest you contact Acura and ask for a case manager. Tell them that you have had enough and you would like them to repurchase the vehicle or have them replace it with a comparably equipped car. Make sure you keep notes and names of people you have spoken to at the dealership and Acura corporate - it's very important. Note that you will probably be charged for usage (mileage) which is usually a formula off the purchase price. You will also probably be reponsible for any difference should you opt for a replacement vehicle. It was my experience that the manufacturer would probably want to charge you MSRP on a replacement vehicle which may result in a little more money out of pocket. However, you may be able to negotiate for a lower price.

I hope it works out for you. Good luck!

BigWopHH

Thanks for all of the useful feedback everyone. I have an update...

The dealership called me today to say that a rep from Acura went to the body shop along with the service manager to inspect the car, they still can't figure out what's wrong with it exactly, and that at this point it's looking like Acura is going to buy the car back.

The dealership said they'll be putting the car back together in the next couple of days, at which point I'll have to pick it up. Then, I assume, we'll hammer out the specifics, and Acura will supposedly cut a check and I'll have to surrender the car.

Does that sound right to those of you that have gone through similar situations?

Should they TRY to charge be for use of the car while it was in my possession, what should I expect pay? A few cents per mile?

Colin

Really? Looks like they're on the way to a solution.

Colin

This will likely vary depending on state lemon laws. Did you get the DM I sent on the 31st?

chaiwala

Yes this is exactly what I had to do. Acura will cut you a check for what they deem to be a fair price. Then they'll give you an option to purchase another TL at a very attractive price(this is what I chose). Even if you don't have a lawyer, make sure you tell or fib Acura that you have retained an attorney for this process. This way they will not mess with you. A legal letter is the most powerful resource at this point in juncture of negotiations.

Remember, YOU have leverage at this point. Acura has shown their cards in accepting that your car is a lemon. They DONT want you to go thru the lemon law process because it costs them money to pay for your lawyer and if you win, which you would they CANNOT resell your car. If they just buy back your car, it shows up on carfax or autocheck as the car being bought back but the problem being fixed and sell it as a used car and some poor guy will get stuck with your problem if its not fixed properly. So you do the jerking around and not the other way around.

BigWopHH

@Colin - Yes, I did get your message--very much appreciated, thank you. And, although I have been inconvenienced and jerked around by the dealership, I actually do think Acura is going to be right by me. For now I still have faith and will buy another TL. If negotiations go bad, I'll just file for lemon law protection and take my money to Infiniti.

@ chiawala - Would you mind sending me a PM with what kind of information was in your legal letter? And if you wouldn't mind me asking, how much money you were out of pocket when all was said and done? If you don't want to disclose that, I totally understand. I just want to set my mind at ease that this isn't going to cost me a fortune, because Acura sold me a defective car.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

^ He is correct.. If they buy the car back, it gets branded as Lemon or i believe (Dealer BuyBack).. which is essentially just as bad as a salvage title

NY State, btw, if your car is out of service for 30 days, it can qualify as a lemon.

Also, if you have under 12k miles, you can not be penalized

The only thing you would have to pay, if i recall, is the $250 lemon law application fee


I was getting ready to Lemon Law my Blackura because the brakes didnt feel right... the car got rear ended, and was out of commission for 3 months... by the time i got it back, i didnt care about the brakes anymore.. i upgraded to the Rotora BBK.... and then 48 hours later, i wrecked the car, because of 1) a fault VSA module that pumped air into the brake lines (covered by a TSB) and 2) my aggresive braking on the new kit


Looks like Acura is going to make this right for you

Piotr_W

I do not think so. They just play with him until he is going to have enough and apply for lemon law. Hopefully not too late.

Piotr_W

Did you call that attorney i gave you ?
Did you check that website?

Piotr_W

This is lemon law in New York
http://www.lemonlawclaims.com/New%20...aw%20guide.htm

BigWopHH

Yes, I did call that attorney. He didn't seem interested at first, but once I told him about the broken welds he said I had a good case.

BigWopHH

I'm confident they're not messing with me, but I also think they're not being 100% truthful.

And it's definitly not too late should I ultimately have to push for Lemon Law protection--the car is 5 months old and has 3K miles on it. And 2 of those months it spent at the dealership getting "repaired".

Piotr_W

I will tell you my story. In July 2004 i have bought brand new TL. After 3 months or so i felt vibrations all over. I went to dealer complaining about this vibrations so they have balanced my wheels for the first time. After couple of visits at 9000 miles i got brand new tires. They told me we will give new tires with a new compound. I checked all tires and all of them were older then tires that came with my car. Did not help at all. After so many complains acura sent over a SUPER ACURA guy and we went for a ride.The car shook like hell. When i asked about this vibrations he told me this the characteristic of the car. I am serious. When i asked him for a advice what to do with this he told to get brand new wheels and tires. Acura have balanced my tires about 10 or 15 times. My car had 14000 miles on it when i applied for a lemon law. Before that I had to go to certified mechanic to confirm all those vibrations in writing. It was March 2005. In November 2005 i had phone call from my lawyer saying we have won with acura and i am getting a brand new car. This took acura almost 6 months to get all documents together so i beat the s*** out of the car. In April 2006 i have picked up brand new car. Old car had 30000 miles on it, bald tires and huge scratch on the left side. Someone keyed my car bumper to bumper. It was black. Acura tried to charge me $800 for scratch and some $ for used tires. I have not paid a penny. Dealer will not give you a brand new car only a good lawyer. It takes some time but it is worth it. And one more thing when you go to dealer with complains you got to be extra careful when acura rep writes your complain. You tell him one thing and he writes something else. This documents are used against acura when someone has a serious problem with a car. That was my story.

GrigioTL

The usage charge usually varies depending on state. Most state lemon laws provide a provision for the manufacturer to deduct a reasonable allowance for use. Check your state lemon law for information on the usage charge. Your state should have a formula for calculating the offset for use.

GrigioTL

Note that a repurchase usually takes anywhere from 14-30 days from the date you accept, sign and return the manufacturer's written offer. Most manufacturers use a third party representative to complete the repurchase process. The vehicle would need to be inspected by the third party (they usually run through a checklist) and you have to sign quite a bit of paper work before handing in your the keys. If there is a lien on the car, a check would be sent directly to the lien holder for the loan balance. A check will also be issued to you if there is any remaining balance after the lien holder gets their money.

graphicguy

Hope this is the beginning of Acura repurchasing your vehicle. But, since you mentioned it, you're not confident the dealership is being 100% honest with you. Why do you feel that way?

Have you spoken to the Acura regional rep? Or, is this information coming from the dealer?

Reason being, if you're talking directly to the Acura rep, then a declaration of their intent to do a buyback would carry a lot more weight. If it's the dealership, it could be a ploy to move another new unit, and getting your TL as a "used" car to put on their lot, without any admission it's a "lemon".

The only money out of your pocket should be whatever price differential there is between an '09 and a '10 (assuming your current, broken TL is an '09). Anything more than that, and I wouldn't agree with whatever deal they've "cooked up".

At this point, if you haven't already, I'd insist on talking directly to the Acura Regional Rep, instead of having the dealership doing the communication with you.

If you decide to go with another brand of car, then they should issue you a check for the entire purchase price, including all doc and licenesing fees, as well as interest on a loan. That's probably the way I'd go. That way, if you choose to buy a TL, you can buy it from whomever you choose (if you don't like your current dealer). If not, you can pay off the loan amount (assuming you have a loan) and buy whatever you want with what's left.

Key here is to get everything in writing from Acura.

EDIT.....OOPS....just saw your signature and you have an '09. Did the dealership do the underbody kit install? If so, you should also get a refund for that, too. Not real certain they'll cover any other aftermarket goodies like your intake, crank, etc. You maybe SOL on the cost of those parts. You also may get a fight from Acura that those parts voids their warranty. Not sure on that last point, though.

BigWopHH

I'm just not confident the dealer is being 100% honest, because they're being cagey, and haven't even told with exactly what's wrong with the car. They said Acura is going to buy it back, but didn't have details, etc.

I have another update as well. Just got a call from my case manager at Acura HQ. He said the local district manager has submitted the request for Acura to buy the car back, and that they just waiting on approval. He said the process will be "timely" and shouldn't a take more than a few weeks.

Fingers are crossed.

Kingmeow

Maybe you can ask the Acura Case Manager what's wrong with the care if the dealer doesn't fess up?

Colin

I think that if anyone knew what was wrong with the car they'd fix it and wouldn't buy back the car.

The 'bottom line' is that each of you (seem) to be missing the relationship between the dealer and American Honda (Acura). At this stage in the game, the dealer doesn't "know" because it's out of their hands. AHM is cutting you the check and the local dealer has nothing to do with the amount or timeliness. They are likely being noncommittal because they don't want to promise that the check will be here in 1 week if they don't know that.

If you are speaking directly with AHM via the district manager, you are talking to the right people.

graphicguy

That's good news, if you heard from Acura HQ directly. Couple of weeks wait time for approval is not unusual. Anything past that and I think you should start to be the "squeaky wheel".

I would want some details as far as what was submitted to Acura. Are they including your "add-ons"? Did the submission include no charges for mileage or "wear and tear"? Doc fees? License fees? Taxes paid?

As far as the reasons the car was a lemon, at this juncture, I'm don't think it matters. What does matter is that you're fully satisfied with the resolution. And, if you decide to buy another TL, you might think about hooking up with another dealer if you believe your current dealer isn't being 100% forthcoming.

As you said, you might consider a G37. That's not a bad choice, either.

BigWopHH

Just another update for everyone. Got a call from Acura HQ again today. They are giving me my choice of a buy-back or swap for a new 2010. I'm leaning towards the swap...I'll explain why in a bit...

I have to fax them my registration and invoice for the tinted windows I had the dealership install, and will also give them a list of my color choices.

At that point, I'm told Acura will send me a letter and a contract. If I accept, they'll get the new car ready for me, when it's ready I'll head to the dealership to inspect it, and if it's to my satisfaction, I'll surrender the keys to my current car and take possession of the new one.

I know many of you have advised to just take the cash and re-purchase on my own terms, but there were two issues with that. 1) There was no guarantee I was going to get the same price on a 2010 configured the way I liked. I had literally been negotiating for months and got a great deal on my '09. 2) If I took the cash payout, I would no be reimbursed for the taxes on the car, which were substantial becuase I didn't trade anything in. I would have to purchase the new car, then submit paperwork to the state taxation department requesting reimbursement. I'd also have to outlay the cash for the tax on the new car, which would be tight.

StuartMMVITL

iTrader: (1)

I agree with your logic && decision. Sounds like you'll end up with a new 2010 model for no real out of pocket expenses. I think that's a pretty good deal. I'm assuming it will be equipped identical to your existing one as well.

Pete2010

I think I would take the swap also, the dealer isn't going to discount a 2010 AWD w/Tech enough to remove the tax liability for purchase. Plus, with a buy-back, would they give to 100% of what you paid for it? I can't believe they would.... I think with a swap you would mitigate your risk, and still get the car you want. Seems like a Win to me.

Good luck.

Kingmeow

Swap! It's painless and no waste of you time.