Oswald Vater

Interesting points all. I guess for me the bottom line is that the TL is the perfect balance of price, value, performance and comfort (and has been for my last 3 cars). No manufacterer can build a car that appeals to everyone just as no radio station can appeal to everyone. We all have different tastes and preferences. However, I think the TL has done a good job trying to fill its particular niche in the industry. Whether Acura as a corporation can continue to do so only time will tell.

smarty666

Very good points. The TL is overall a better overall package in regard to value, comfort, etc. Don't get me wrong the G37 is a great vehicle and has a couple of areas of performance/handling advantage over the TL, even the AWD version, but it all depends on what you want in a luxury car. The G37 sedan is a nice alternative to the TL and you can't go wrong with either of them.

JD23

I have to point out that these comments could not be further from the truth; both Ferrari and Lamborghini have sold more vehicles in the past few years than during any other time in their history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini

You may not see them, but they're certainly selling.

Oswald Vater

Yup. I cross-shopped the G (as most on this site have) and while it was a nice car at my age I am tending to lead more towards "comfort" and less towards "sport". This is where the TL won out but I can see why those leaning the other way might pick the G instead. I DO know that I am definitely not ready for an ES which I also test-drove. TOO comfy!

smarty666

That is something I have always liked about the TL and Acura in general. They seem to be the perfect halfway point between Infiniti and Lexus in blending sport and comfort together. On the one extreme you have Infiniti who is sport oriented trying to build race cars to compete with BMW and then you have Lexus on the total polar opposite extreme that focuses on building a couch for you to drive in. Acura blends the comfort of Lexus and some of the sport performance of Infiniti into a nicely put together overall package that I think appeals to a lot of people, myself included.

Don't get me wrong, the G37 and ES350 are great cars for what they are and I could live with each of them but it depends on what your looking for in a car. I see plenty of G's, ES's, and TL's on the road so each appeals to a lot of people.

Colin

I hope you know that this kind of "moderate" stance is not going to get you anywhere on this forum. LOL, These days, you're to either a "fanboi" or a "hater". There is no middle ground.

YetiTL

Yeah, we do occasional witchhunts, burning houses down and hanging unbelievers...

Oups sorry wrong forum...

jasonwdp10

That seems like something reserved for TOV lol

docboy

Or Cartalk

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

Have to admit, although a Honda die-hard, I was hard pressed to find anything in the lineup I liked whole-heartedly (and that's a first). I have an AP1 in the garage - they haven't built anything better in the performance arena for the money. I have an 03 CL 6 Speed in the garage - and ditto, really no reason to go to an Accord Coupe.

I settled on the 4G TL for creature comforts and ride quality. It seems Honda is out of touch with their enthusiast community. We don't want hybrid hatchbacks, accord wagons, tsx wagons, pilot wagons (hey, give em time)....what are they doing? It'll be interesting to see if the Civic redesign doesnt produce a 4000lb car with the way they've been going.

I really think the 4G TL body was intended to be FR with a V8, and the carpocolypse changed the game. In that config, the phrase "M5 Eater" comes to mind....but alas, it wasn't meant to be.

smarty666

I don't know, after how much the TSX, TL, and Accord have grown in size over the past two years, I don't think Honda will be able to contain themselves on the Civic and do not have I hopes that it will remain on the smaller size that it is now!

Motorista

Well, in September of 1987 I was very, very close to buying a BMW 525, when, one evening, I went by the then-new Acura of Boston dealership and, on a whim, test drove a 1988 Legend sedan stick shift.

At that time the price differential for a comparably equipped car was approx. $15,000 in favor of Acura. I found the Legend a little less tight, the chassis dynamics a little less engaging than the BMW, and the headlights (it was dark) much less bright than the 525. But, and here is the point, the superiority of the BMW did not seem to me to be worth the 15k price differential, and the Legend's engine coupled with the stick shift made for an exhilarating experience, so I bought the Legend.

Since then I have always had at least one (and sometimes two) Acuras in the stable. In 1991 I traded it in for a '91 Legend coupe L, also stick: I still have this car, as reliable and, subjectively, as fun to drive as when new. When a few months ago my wife's 2006 RL was severely damaged in an accident, I test drove a 2010 TL stick shift (at the same dealership, by the way, talking with the same people 23 years later: this is also worth something). Now this is a car whose appearance neither my wife nor I particularly cared for (it has since grown on us), but as soon as I drove it I loved it: wonderful engine, quick steering, firm suspension, delightful gear box: in a word, really fun to drive, and now about $20k less than a comparably equipped BMW Series 5. I do realize that some of the details are not consistent with the expectations of a luxury car (some hard plastics on the doors and lower dash, for example), and I certainly will always choose one of our other cars, which is huge and luxurious (no, it's not a BMW) to drive a thousand miles or so. And yet, from time to time I need to hit the back roads in the TL (or in the Legend) to get the satisfaction of really driving. This, in my view, is where Acura's strength is: it's in the dna, the fun to drive factor and the value. As for luxury, it is a lot more luxurious than the Subaru WRX which I used to own a few years ago, and feels just as quick.

JM2010 SH-AWD

/\ I have the same Acura lineage. Just sold my beloved '92 Legend Coupe. I bought it for the same reasons you described. The car was great looking, fun to drive and reliable as a brick.

Flash forward 18 years. I was prepared not to like the new TL because of the size and the different styling. But, after reading some great reviews, I drove one, and instantly recognized that same, fun to drive exhiliration that made me buy my Legend in 1992.

CTsteve

...or is that driver?

The vision expressed in the video seems to be a soft one at best. Way too much emphasis on perceptions of responsibility, value and many other pc platitudes.

I bought a 2010 tl with six-speed manual transmission, sh-awd, tech package for the express purpose of driving well. Lots of buttons on the center stack, lots of techno capabilities if you take the time to figure things out. I did. Still, the point of the car for me is performance, not gadget stuff. Whether driving to the store or heading up to Lime Rock, a car should engage and gratify at many levels. My wife's tl does. I was disappointed in watching the video. I came away with the impression that performance and driver satisfaction, moving forward, are not priorities for Acura.

Just my $0.02.

YetiTL

We shall see, as most common luxury brands have performance products and performance sells. I wouldn't think Acura/Honda want to cut their market shares that much...

You need high performance flagships, it helps to show your corporation know-how, well I think so. Wasn't that the point of the NSX, or the point of the M3, or the R8???

Let's face it, Luxury usually means «excess», «more» or «higher quality». Acura can say smart luxury, it's a good concept but it can be a double-edged sword if employ to justify everything the cars lack compared to the competition offering «non-smart luxury». FInally, who would buy Acuras if the small luxury could be found in loaded Accord?

IMHO, the best and most honest way to use the concept of smart luxury is to develop great products but make a reality check each time you want to implement it in the line-up, how much bang for the consumer buck?

Lastly, they should work on the finishing touches and improve the already great quality. IMHO, I would prefer a rattle-free car, with attention to the small details and bank-vault like solidity and reliability than a showcase of technologies that break every 10k miles. For me that could look like: stop the rattles, the rusty brake rotors and add some nice brake calipers and an aggresive 6AT to match the 6MT then move from there. Correcting the small details shouldn't be that expensive and would add a lot of «quality feel», well it's surely less expensive than stuff like CMBT and active noise cancellation (for god sake go buy a Lexus ES350 if you want a super quiet car).

We'll get there...eventually.

Sorry I went a little off-topic

Great thread, have a great day!
-YetiTL

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

Acura / Honda seem like a poorly captained ship right now IMO. Nothing new and innovative on the automotive horizon to establish lofty goals and set the tone for new models.

Proof?

ZDX.
TSX Wagon.
Accord Crosstour.
Hyundia-esque copy of the Toyota Prius...umm, I mean Insight.
CR-Z.

Audi, BMW free of the Bangle curse, Benz, Hyundai, Nissan, Infiniti, and Ford are making some of the most aesthetically pleasing (and invitingly equipped) vehicles in recent history.

What is Honda / Acura doing? The formula used to be build something practical, yet fun, ridiculously well engineered and dependable, and sell it at a price point that is affordable, if not less than competitors. I'm really trying to figure out what their new formula is.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

It kept on sounding like he was saying "TS Sex".

More seriously though, I had to laugh. I'll just pick apart several things.

They claim to be smart about:

-Vehicle Size
Mm, is that why the TL is so much larger than the last one but has about the same total interior volume? Is that why it's larger than the RL but has similar total volume? Is that why the ZDX is a large heavy SUV with cargo capacity on par with the RDX and CR-V? Is that why the TSX bloated out for its second generation? Get real, Acura.
-Fuel Economy
Ah, is that why an enormous Lincoln MKS with a 355 hp engine is rated at 17/25 like the TL SH-AWD? Is that why the RL is rated 16/22 when something like the 420 horsepower V-8 AND AWD M56x is rated 16/23? I could talk endlessly here.
-Utility
And how's that Acura? I already covered the poor packaging of your TL and ZDX because of their designs. The TSX wagon? That's about your only card to play.
-Environmental Impact
Psh, from the guys that only do gas I-4s and V-6s.
-Value
Yeah right. Lagging behind in technology and charging less is not value. It's called compensating for falling behind.
-Fully Appointed
Yep I'll give you that.
-Latest Technology
Oh dear. The RL, MDX, and ZDX -basically just your high end models- have the cooled seats, blind spot detection, laser cruise, etc. You know a 34 grand Lacrosse comes with a bunch of items you cannot get on a TSX, TL, or RDX. Same with the Taurus, Genesis, Avalon, Maxima, and more. Even a pile-o-crap Chrysler 300C can be had with laser cruise and heated rear seats.

And from day one you were about Smart Luxury? Try again, boys. You had it mighty find until late 1995 when you rolled out the 3.5RL, a failure of an attempt to chase Infiniti and Lexus aimlessly. While you continued to go the cheaper and easier route of tarting up Hondas, Lexus and Audi are examples of brands that moved further away from that. Instead of learning from the innovation of the NSX, you allowed it to languish and then dropped it. But I think you did well with the 2004 TL and TSX. It was a good movement. Then you went all wrong again with the next TSX and TL and ZDX.

Studiously avoiding excess? What is the 2009 TL and 2010 ZDX? I'll take Wasteful Engineering for 300, Alex.

Championed the development of the hi-perf V-6 engine? Is that why among 6-cylinders Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Ford, Hyundai, Nissan, Toyota, and others build better V-6s than you now? Unlike you they don't sit on the same basic family and tech for 10+ years.

Negated the need for a thirsty V-8? There's a reason the brands that avoided V-8s in the luxury segment are not doing too favorably on the whole. I don't think you need a V-8, but rather a forced-inducted 6-cylinder. Copy Ford.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Even worse is him saying this when mother effing HYUNDAI has now rolled out two large RWD sedans that offer V-8s and heaps of technology.

smarty666

When you put things into perspective like that, it does seem that Acura exec's are running around in circles with their heads chopped off!

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Oh and I think Acura needs to work long and hard on the K23. It's a lovely engine, at least the RDX I drove.

But 2.3-liters, turbo, and 240 hp/260 tq is a little light today.

Hyundai-Kia rolled out their new 2-liter turbo making 274 hp/264 tq AND is rated 34 mpg highway, 22 city. Oh yeah, it only requires regular to hit those marks too.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

TSX V-6 or Kia?

1075

If Acura would adopt and strictly adhere to this model, they would be extremely successful. If they coupled this with adopting, and requiring dealers to adhere to, a "Lexus-like" customer service experience Acura could stop searching for their identity and get back on track with a loyal, growing following.

Word of mouth advertising beats a TV commercial every time.

winstrolvtec

It actually because they dont run around with there heads chopped off that they don't feel thay have to do too much. Looking at how they conduct business it appears it's because they don't feel they need any radical changes otherwise they would have done it already.

Whether it is only what they think or it is a reality is hard to tell but they seem to sit pretty at the moment and that probably suggest sales are good enough and profit margins are even better, but who really knows?

It's not that they can't, everyone knows they can. They have things like the NSX, a V8 and a RWD platform on the shelf collecting dust but they go on record as saying we could but we don't need/want to.

smarty666

Normally I would have agree with that pre-2009 but they did do radical changes, especially to the TL's exterior, and with vehicles like the ZDX and their corporate shield grill is considered radical so to be honest, I don't buy that they are comfortable with what they do and sell so they don't have to do much. If that was the case, they would not have done the radical changes they made to the TL and come out with ugly radical looking models, like the ZDX. They want to change direction but just seem to not know how to do it.

They should not have shelved the NSX and they do need it. The recession has improved and some say it might be a few more years till we are completely out of it, so Acura should not wait, and with sales this year already better than 2009, that should be incentive for them to explore the luxury coupe ideas they so drastically need. Also, they need to redefine their luxury flagship RL which sells only a few hundred a month. They are the only luxury company that doesn't have sport coupes while everyone else has. They are missing a market segment there. They radically changed their styling but they failed to make anything else unique or differenet inside and under the hood.

When you have companies like Hyundai coming out with turbo 4cyl that have impressive mpg numbers, it makes it look like Honda/Acura is behind the times. They need something similar to that to get back out on the map again!

winstrolvtec

But they actually had no reason to make a radical change to the best selling 3G TL though. They still wanted to for other reasons. It seems they want to distance themselves further from Honda and concluded that brand recognition was one way to do it.

Everything else they already have to better compete but have not produced or improved it yet. Perhaps in face of the economy they decided otherwise but they also have said they don't want to build their version of the same car everyone else is building. Instead want to offer more unique niche style vehicles like the TL and ZDX and say they are moving towards performance hybrids. I don't know how they afford that luxury as an automaker in these times even outside of the fact that these models probably don't cost too much for them to produce.

I agree there are things that make them look really dated and maybe out of touch but they don't seem too worried about it.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

That's the worrying part. The Big Three didn't seem too worried and that didn't turn out so well for them.

Acura's claim to not wanting to make vehicles that compete with others or however they worded that rather destroyed their current cars.

There's no real reason to buy their current cars (not SUVs) over the competition, with the possibly exception of the TL SH-AWD. But even then I'll give up some ultimate handling and buy a SHO.

smarty666

To be honest with you I have been impressed with Ford. I'm not sure yet if I would get one of their products, but I would certainly test drive, cross shop, and possibly consider them.

Acura needs to start getting a little bit more innovating with their products. They have the best navigation system in the business, so if they could only spend the time and money that they did on navigation, on other technology, features, and engine/platform research they'd be all set.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Having driven (hard) a new TL SH-AWD and SHO I'd buy the Ford. The TL brakes and handles better no contest, but the SHO has similar mileage, more technology, is way faster, and costs about the same.

It's also smoother and quieter and only needs regular fuel.

It's really awesome!

winstrolvtec

But again it all comes down to opinion and what you are looking for. They have their faults like anyone else but there are just a few areas that Acura excels in that no one really touches. The combination of superior reliabilty, resale and safety is something I can't find elsewhere.

I am not worried about them not overly worrying because they have invested in the changing potential which is already on the shelf, in an event of an emergency all they have to do is break the glass. Sales are pretty strong otherwise though and with all the part and platform sharing, low advertising cost and moderate incentive costs, profits seem good.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

The areas of reliability, safety, and resale are not areas where Acura goes without significant competition. There are other choices in their segments that compete there.

And Acura really invested in changing potential all right. We've seen it with the 08 TSX, 09 TL, and 10 ZDX. The change is not good. Worse packaing, aging technology, and aging powertrains.

smarty666

You can find those qualities in Infiniti, Lexus, and even BMW is moving up high in the reliability category but it then becomes what is interesting to you. Lexus is very luxurious but they lack, passion, fun, uniqueness, etc.

winstrolvtec

And?

You are here to make sure all the Acura owners know this? Gee thanks.

And they make the vehicle as large, with a 6MT and AWD, and as performance capable, with the same level of equipment, for the same price as the TL? Right.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

You are WELCOME!

I don't even know why someone would buy a 195" long sedan with a manual. No wonder the take rate is >5%.

The Genesis 4.6 or SHO make up for the TL's "fun to drive" factor in the twisties with sheer powaaaa. And more room. And more features. And similar mileage.

winstrolvtec

Should of got that Hyundai instead, damn.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I would, but it's not like I'm trying to fanboy the Genesis. Otherwise I'd have bought one buy now.

I just can't decide on what I want, so I'm just gonna wait for some of the cool new stuff coming out. We get that new Kia, already some updates for the SHO for 2011, and the Regal GS for 2012.

I'll get something all right. I'm just being Lord Patience.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

What do you guys think the new RL should be like? Like as far as engine options, size, price, etc.

Tell me and I shall reward you by telling you my opinion! lol

smarty666

Well, it needs to have a more sporty bodystyle to distinguish it from the rest of the line and like you pointed out it has to have some sort of standout engine, either a turbo V6 or a V8. The SH-AWD should be carried over obviously but they need to add more luxury features, similar to the ones I mentioned yesterday that come in other luxury competition.

The current body style is basically the old one with just the new corporate shield grill in the front! Acura has to do better than that. I don't know what to say about its size. I personally like how big it is right now, but the TL is actually larger than it is on the outside so I think Acura will probably make it bigger than the TL now. God help us if they do!

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Well the 2009+ model isn't supposed to be "new", just the midlife facelift. But anway, in my opinion, the RL of 2012 or whenever it comes out:

Size: Sized like the standard wheelbase versions of the large German and Japanese sedans, such as the Lexus LS and BMW 7-Series. So basically that's just shy of 200" long, about 74.5-75" wide, and 58"+ tall. The wheelbase would be at least 118" long.

Engine, Transmission, Drivetrain: Built on its own new platform. Sure it can be a FWD based platform. It doesn't really matter because it would mirror the current model by being SH-AWD as standard (that system, by the way, would be even more rear biased like the TL's). The engine would be the first of an all new Acura exclusive 6-cylinder family, and this would offer two engines. The first would be a basic 3L turbo with 320 hp/320 tq, which would essentially take the place of current 3.7L. The upgraded premium engine would be a 3.7+ liter turbo version with the upwards of 400 hp/400 tq. Instead of automatics, all Acuras would have a new twin clutch design and this would be the first one with it.

Interior: Obviously it needs all kinds of leather all over and alcantara headliner, but I think the flagship car and flagship car only could have a special build program for it, something like Audi Exclusive, BMW Individual, and Mercedes Designo. It allows you some extra special interior colors and combinations. Also, you could have special wood tones and weaves in your wood. Lexus does this in Japan. I saw it on Club Lexus.

SebringSilver

LOL

Thanks for keeping this forum amusing.

Oswald Vater

Agreed. It's on my short list when my lease expires in Feb, 2011. It's probably the only American-branded car I'd consider at the moment to replace my 08 TL/Navi.