TSX69

If memory serves correctly, it was the #1 Sedan. The 3 Series would have been tops if you included the coupe variants.

cp3117

Originally Posted by DrewSRX
February 2009 - Luxury Car Sales
Entry-Level
1. 3 - 6,414
2. C - 3,990
3. CTS - 3,259
4. G - 3,045
5. A4/5 - 2,696
6. ES - 2,575
7. TL - 2,490
8. IS - 2,147
9. MKZ - 1,145
10. 9-3 - 414
11. S60 - 273

'06 Anthracite TL

They don't. At least, not where I am. My dealer is selling all of the AWD TLs they get. Fairly quickly by my observations. The only one they have now (as far as I can tell) is the demo car. The GM tells me he can't get enough of the AWD models, and is getting too many FWDs. This to me speaks to a problem, but one of supply constraint rahter than lack of demand. At the very least, you cannot rule it out.

Since you bring up the Maxima again, explain why its year-over-year decline was greater than the TL's.

'06 Anthracite TL

You and I both know that it's been midpack since 2006.

I'm not about to say that Acura hasn't lost any TL sales due to the redesign. But, last year is not this year, and until you can account for all of the other variables, you can't begin to attribute the numbers to a single, remaining variable.

(Cj)

Because the Maxima is just as ugly as the TL
In 2006 the TL was already 3 years into it's model cycle, and the G and IS had major redesigns, and the 3 series was redesigned the year prior and still fresh. Now the TL has just been redesigned and has the upper hand over it's competition in terms of value and feature content, yet lo and behold it hasn't sparked any fires and its still midpack. I think there is a problem.

(Cj)

VTEC Racer

FIXED:
:rolleyes ::butt head::thumbsdow :theghey::m oon:idhitit:: ):popcorn ::thief::whin e::explode ::c ool::hungover :tr outslap: soopa::playb oy:goldcup:: ninja::tonguefaw cool:gheywave::kissas s:ele ctric::smitler:smooch: :wink::g heyhug::p imp::squintfawcya::ghey: :dunno ::wis h:: bored::b ehead::yi kes::w hip:: hurry::gag : jk:: poke:

The above is a consolidated example of exactly what you have provided to these forums.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

CJ I think like you and others have just mentioned, the TL lost its sales leader position for a few years already since the new IS and G came out. Sure enough, the TL has been redesigned, but it has moved upmarket, it's even closer to the 5-series, E class, A6 etc, though it's still priced quite a bit lower than before. Nonetheless, it has the size and features to go up against those cars. But it's still lacking some prestige factor and perhaps some power. IMO, the TSX becomes (or is becoming, whether you like it or not) the replacement for the 3G TL. They are similar priced and equipped. When the V6 model comes out in the summer, it's going to be very similar to the 3G TL. I guess this is Acura's strategy in the short term, to push TSX closer to what the 3G TL was like, yet being a tiny bit smaller, but bigger than most competitors like the 3 series and IS. The TL is getting closer to the 5-series level as said before. After that, they will have to offer more options like 6MT and AWD for the TSX V6 model (slim chance of this happenign though), a Type S model for both TSX and TL.

So to answer your question/comment CJ, regarding the "problem." I'd say the reasons it's not selling over 4000 copies a month are that, it's grown too big to compete with IS, 3 series, etc, poor economy, and its new appearance. Each of these factors are important and I don't think one can simply blame the economy and/or that it's too ugly.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

lol VTEC Racer calm down man!

VTEC Racer

Why can't SSFTSX make his points himself? Why do you always have to make them for him? Lack of direction or just pure stupidity? Probably a little bit of both.

Continuing to compare sales of cars when the economy was good to sales of cars now is as pointless as you are to this forum. Sales wise, you should be comparing the TL to a car in its class that was released around the same time. How about the refreshed Lexus IS which has sales down over 40%? Or the refreshed G37 which has sales down almost 50%? Or maybe the A4 which is brand new and only has sales down 20% yet fails to come close to the TL. Speaking of momentum, don't forget to include the Lexus GS which has entered the same category as the Acura RL.

SSFTSX

They are exactly the same. right down to engines/electronics/features.
Audi philosphy is too provide almost similar content/performance across all models. It is not the relationship like TSX/TL/RL. RS4 can be more expensive than S6.
A8 is in last model year just like 7 series and they are not that many like 3G TL to be freely distributed.

VTEC Racer

Easy, little one. Take one step at a time. Before you open another can of worms, how about you finish eating the first one you opened. You have not answered to a SINGLE response in my last post to you. Here it is again.
Reply to this like a man, and then you should continue forward. You debate like a pillbug travels. You have absolutely no since of direction.

VTEC Racer

.

VTEC Racer

BTW, guys. I just got a new Lambo. Check out my one and only picture that I have of it. I don't wan't to post any more pictures of it though because I'm concerned for my safety so don't ask for any.

Audioholics

haha now if only you took that pic actually sitting in the car, we'd believe you. Man that car doesn't look right being parked there.

Legend2TL

If they were exactly the same they would all be called an A4, otherwise they are different models. They are all on different wheelbases hence they are different chassis/floorpans. That is typically how a automaker claims a model is a platform shared .

An example is the 3G TL and 7G Accord both shared a 107.9" wheelbase and were both share the floorpan (typically the most expensive single piece of tooling for a auto factory). However they do not share engine cradles and alot of the sheetmetal that goes up from the floorpan is different. None the less they share platforms.

The A8 being freely distributed? It's been a poor selling flagship for Audi, -67% (2/08->2/09) that's worst than the RL. Both nice cars but probably neither making sales numbers marketing/engineering can be proud of.

(Cj)

The TL hasn't moved upmarket. It's still the same price as other entry level luxury sedans. The TL doesn't compete with midship luxury sedans. It lacks an optional V8 engine, and a certain refinement that true midship luxury sedans have. It's interior is the closer to the size of A4, 3 series, G, CTS, and ES (all of which are entry level luxury sedans).

You still haven't provided any FACTS to disprove SSFTSX, so why should anyone even listen to you?

So now you're giving up saying that comparing sales doesn't matter? Anyway the G and IS aren't all new like the TL, so they are at a disadvantage to the TL, yet the TL doesn't even touch the Gs sales. The Lexus GS is still selling well enough, and most are buying the more upmarket LS which is more profitable for Lexus anyway so it doesn't matter if GS sales are slow.

SSFTSX

surely they have different wheel bases. even drive select is same. A8 is only poor selling in US not around the world.

MistahSleepy

Uh....not really getting into the middle of this, but....Have you been inside a 4G TL, A4, G37S, 330i?

The A4, G37S, 3 series, IS, are all a lot smaller than the 4G TL, hell they're smaller than the 3G TL!

CL6

Note to self: If concerned about my "safety" I will blur my license plate in publically posted photos.

(Cj)

The IS is the only one that you posted that is "a lot smaller" than the 4G TL. Look at the specs.

'06 Anthracite TL

Yeah, it's called a recession.

(Cj)

I was thinking something else

Colin

Heh, look again what he wrote. "are all a lot smaller than the 4G TL, hell they're smaller than the 3G TL" The cars mentioned ARE a lot smaller than 4G, and also smaller (not a lot) than 3G

(Cj)

exterior
interior... not so much

'06 Anthracite TL

I know you were.

Colin

Thats not what he said, but I'm going to let you slide on your mis-quote/read.....

VTEC Racer

.

SSFTSX

Facts are pretty obvious. TL is US designed and built sedan taking into consideration that oversize vehciles has more chance of success than efficient/compact expensive sedans with full options. (Old way of thinking)
TL in current form has Zero percent chance of success outside US. So stop comparing it with imports that have wide audience.
Low sales will make Honda making less investments in TL just like they abandoing Honda Legend. Basically u get 99% of tech in EuroAccord what is present in RL. All improvements are going into EuroAccord.
Lamborigini now depends on Audi. So in future if buy Porshe/Lambo/Bentely most of criticals parts will be from Audi. It is the net result of large volume leader in premium segment.

VTEC Racer

Still waiting...

cp3117

Sorry, I couldnt find anything at the Acura or Honda Media site that showed these estimates (maybe an oversight on my part) but im sure you must have a link somewhere to an article that shows they stated this.

I wouldnt mind reading it as im curious if they have other estimates on TSX sales and other Acura models......Thanks in Advance.

Colin

This 80% - 20% split was published in the Ride and Drive info given to dealers. I am not sure if you'll find it in a press release:

VTEC Racer

Thanks, Colin.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Note that I said the following,

"it has moved upmarket, it's even closer to the 5-series, E class, A6 etc, though it's still priced quite a bit lower as before. Nonetheless, it has the size and features to go up against those cars. But it's still lacking some prestige factor and perhaps some power."

so..I was saying the TL is CLOSER to the 5-series, E Class etc, but I didn't say it's in the SAME class as those cars. I also said it's priced lower. I also mentioned about needing more power to compete with the big boys (ie V8 models). Another point I made before was adding more options.

As far as interior room, check out this link (hopefully it works):
http://autos.msn.com/research/compar...8629&v=t108794

As you can see, the TL only loses to the 3 series AND 5 series in headroom, but larger in other interior dimensions. In other words, the TL has more shoulder room and leg room than the 5 series.

http://autos.msn.com/research/compar...8629&v=t107649

Again, same thing with the E Class. The TL offers less leg room, but more shoulder room and legroom than the E class.

http://autos.msn.com/research/compar...8629&v=t108711

Compared to the GS, they are pretty close, but in general the interior dimensions of the TL is a little bit bigger.

cp3117

Thanks Colin. I should have known better and just asked you in the first place as you always back up or support your statements as you must have a plethora of info hidden in your desk.

I personally think for the market the TL is aimed at (Entry Level) those figures should be much higher for the SH-AWD. In the last five years Audi quattro sales have increased dramatically but in a worldwide presence the FWD versions have always outsold the Quattro. Im not sure what Audi's delay was releasing their FWD version as they have had them for decades but it should help their sales a little more now.

"The most successful Audi models in terms of sales volume are the A4 and the A6, and this is also true of their quattro variants. If the preceding model versions are included, 37,572 Audi A4 cars with permanent all-wheel drive had been built by the end of 2004. The figure for the Audi A6 is 601,204, the proportion with the quattro driveline having risen recently to 42 % in the case of the saloon.

From 1980 until the end of 2004, Audi had built 1,815,396 cars with permanent all-wheel drive. If this is related to a total production - excluding the A2 model line - of 12,030,207 units, the all-wheel-drive variants account for 15.1% during the period.

In recent years, the proportion of quattro-equipped cars was regularly higher than one quarter of the total, and indeed reached 26.7% in 2004. Audi is the leading international manufacturer of passenger cars with permanent all-wheel drive in the premium segment of the market. The current model programme lists 74 model variants with the quattro driveline."

http://www.audiworld.com/news/05/25q...ontent35.shtml

Do you have a book for the TSX that shows its estimates also as im curious as to what Acura thinks the percentage of V-6's will sell.

BTW I drove by your dealership when i was there a few weeks ago and i must say its very nice. The white RL out front is by far the nicest on your lot....2008 NOS or used?......You live in a great state!!!!

cp3117

I see what your saying as far as interior size goes but the TL had to sacrifce a lot of cargo space to get that extra interior room where the other Mid Level cars didnt.

There are many other new cars out there that are going to have more features and more space than the 4G and when the new E-Class, A6, 5 Series are released soon they are going pull away again from the 4G in terms of size.

KeithL

WOW not sure why they didn't build 20% then at least in the south we see maybe 2-3 max at dealers I had to go 250 miles to get my AWD in the color I wanted becasue they are so rare and that dealer had 4 cars our of 44, my local dealers had may 1 out of 50.

(Cj)

According to financial analyst this recession started 15 months ago in December 2007 so it is fair to compare the CTS launch a year ago to the TL launch now. Aside from the launch, the CTS is still doing well in this economy and outselling the all new TL.

What makes that even more amazing is the fact that most consumers know GM may go bankrupt (that fact seems to have deterred buyers from GM's other brands considering sales were DOWN over 50% overall last month for the company). But even so luxury buyers are still buying the CTS over most other luxury sedans (with the exception of C and 3). So what makes the CTS different from the TL? You can't say size is what's hurting the TL since the CTS is just as big, you can't say price since the CTS cost more, and you can't say fuel economy since the CTS is less efficient. The only thing that separates the two is design. I say that because the CTS's design was/is universally praised and the TL's design was/is universally bashed.

It's still like saying the CTS competes with 5 series or the ES competes with E class, when we know that's not the case. Just because the new TL is obese doesn't mean it competes with midship luxury sedans. If you look at other dimensions like luggage space (or even overall passenger space) the TL isn't where the 5/E/GS are. Tweener luxury sedans are nothing new and Lexus built the niche with the ES and they have done extremely well, Acura copied the idea with the 2G TL and that's what saved the brand at the time.

'06 Anthracite TL

Could you remind me why you don't drive an Audi?

Regardless of whether a car is designed as a world car or for a given market, it doesn't render a comparison for that given market meaningless.

SSFTSX

A4 most dramatic?. It is still using the same engines from previous generation and same MMI from previous generation. Even the new 7Speed DSG hasnt been launched in US. only Q5 has new MMI but that starts at $10K more.
Dramactic FMC comes when all new engines/transmission/MMI is incorporated at same time. Tech packages are the most expensive options in German cars.