Maybe this might help you. Seems a different income bracket for these shoppers.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593182

Nice thing about living in Jersey its was a quick run over to Englishtown Raceway Park from Freehold Twps. or Spring Lake. Here its a 140 mile round trip to Rockingham.

https://acurazine.com/forums/picture...ictureid=51464

My prime runner in Jersey was not very stealthy. But hey it was the Jersey shore.:thumbsup:

I would have told her to take a hike. Must really suck to need a car to get a girl.:yuck:

Was that supposed to dispute the notion or support it, because it seems that thread works both ways and that is really all anyone here as ever suggested, that you can consider the TL next to many of those cars for fundamental and categorical alignments.

I don't see what that has to do with anyone's respective income. As we can see even from your example, people shop all kinds of price points regardless of income. People higher up on the spectrum can just as easily shop lower priced vehicles as well. Those lower might not be in the position to shop up but let's not assume everyone who buys a TL is only of a certain income or lower for that matter.

I don't think it would be a stretch to suggest that at least 1 in 4 TL buyers could buy something more expensive or lease something else instead of finance their TL instead. Acura's and TL account for a good amount of finances because they are positioned as affordable luxury while others are heavily leased.

Still, I agree that it is not a perfect comparison or is the ideal cross shop candidate to those cars but no one ever argued that.

^^^^^

I don't know about income but the first TL listed in the 5 series cross shopping list of people who bought a 5 series was in post #7. All the other cars listed are the usual suspects.

Don't know if the TL was listed again, maybe after I hit the link.

Yes, response #7, post #8 but it's also listed twice and was talked about a decent amount relative to other cars in discussion. Keep in mind that is only one side, 5 buyers who also considered TL's. Then there is the usual TL buyers who considered 5's. It seems the consensus was the car may or may not have been considered/cross shopped mainly because of the controversy over the styling.

There was even someone who didn't consider it because of the possibility of their colleagues thinking they were in financial difficulty but others went on to suggest it was a good value, which is a bit of a contradiction, so it's more of a perception or positioning thing than it not fundamentally aligning or sharing in many traits as a luxury sedan and therefore being cross shopped to an extent.

Which brings us to another problem, I don't think many would readily admit to it on the BMW side. One, in an attempt to save face among the brethern, noted the question of what was I thinking? A few even further contradicted by saying the RL fits because it's not available in FWD and that it has 300 HP and SH (which as a whole I agree with considering all TL trims vs 5 serie trims), then go on to say that the TL was however also available in SH and 305 HP and that buyers might consider that model. It's kind of what I expected, to me, underlying the theme surrounding the point about the TL shopped with the 5, (and at a BMW site) was a lot of yes but no not really and no but maybe yes.

Quickly scrolling through that thread...

The TL was mentioned in that forum thread (one guy cross-shopped it) and the main negative comment about it was the controversial styling, one forum member called it "a winner on paper" but disliked the look of it.

One poster "wondered" why many has not considered the TL.


Many posters were "heavy hitters", meaning owners of the 550i, which is effectively is head and shoulder above the TL and I do not expect any cross-shopping there....

Another negative comment was the fact that the TL was FWD car (maybe ignoring the existence of the SH-AWD)

One poster posted the A4 and the Jetta Sportwagon as cross shopping targets among others...

Another mentioned he was able to get a 5 Series for 15K off sticker (in Chigago, not middle of nowhere), with a person replying to him "likewise".

When I got my TL (a supposedly slow selling vehicle), in my experience it was pure fantasy to even hope to get that kind of percentage discount off MSRP....

Only couple of comments about the TL and 5 Series not being in the same class.....so is not cut and dry as someone may think.....

As someone already mentioned before (I think g37guy01) is reasonable to expect more cross shopping from Acura customers to BMW than the other way around....the Acura brand is not as strong and BMW has an extremely loyal driving following in addition to the additional brand cache....

Final point, even without the TL there were cases of quite big gaps in MSRP among the listed cross-shopped models (for example 535i with Mercedes CLS 550 and 550 with Panamera)

^Like that you brought up that last piont, I was thinking to myself that it's exactly the same concept relative to the TL and 5, except you don't see any of us saying that nobody cross shops the 5 series with a Panamera, CLS, etc. It changes the perspective entirely when the tables are turned.

Sure those cars may have different price points and maybe people who shop them are in differen income brackets but I don't see that much of that has to necessarily be a big part of it.

The flip side of the bolded statement could be, in an attempt to puff up the TL, some people cross-shop it against a 5 series.

Now, I'm not saying anybody really does that, but it's quite the slippery slope to make a generic statement. Even in light of the TL being mentioned in the bimmerfest thread.

I'm not sure what you guys got out of the thread, but out of 43 posts, only 1 or maybe 2 people cross shopped the TL. But there were a few who did reference the TL in responses but was not a choice during they're car shopping experiance. Another point I made was the income brackets, based on the large majority of cars shopped by these buyers, I didn't see Maxima and G35 which seems to be common comparisons to the TL. The majority of the shoppers are high end or higher end then the 5 based on the majority of high end cars shopped. Yes, there are a few who shopped a VW, but lets face it, the majority speaks volumns.

I had mentioned in a past post the 5 Series shoppers had very little cross over shopping the TL, but there were TL shoppers cross shopping the 5. I think the thread proves that post of the BMW buyer.

If we all want to focus on the low percentages, go right ahead if it makes anyone feel better, but I think the thread demonstrated a bit of reality.

I don't wish to start a pissing match, but some of the statements made on this thread are hysterical.

Hamma is very simple and frankly I'm amazed that this thing keep dragging on..

If you are in the market for a 550i or similar you will not consider the TL...period....

If you are in the market for a 528/535 type of vehicle you may consider the TL/RL in your shopping decision....as simple as that....

If you are a RWD die hard fan, again, you will not consider the TL...period

Then, in addition to that, the TL has a controversial styling (hate it or love it) which it does not help where the 5 Series is more mainstream.

That thread did also show that often the price of vehicles people consider in their shopping list can have significant differences between them....not everyone stretch themselves to the last dollar of affordability...

Correct me if I'm wrong but you are the clear demonstration of what we are trying to say...You got a 5 Series because you did not like the styling of the TL...not for "class" reasons....

There are always some who stretch to a car they might not afford, just like there are TL owners who should had bought the Accord. Maybe BMW took the easy road and designed a car more mainstream, but the reality for any car maker is sell more cars and make a profit.

I do agree with many of your comments, but when a car roughly starts 20% higher in price then another, 10k is alot of money out of pocket when looking to spend X amount of dollars per month on a payment. Again, income comes into play.

I agree this horse is beaten, ridden hard, and put away wet. I think we're done here. :thumbsup:

Absolutely, I agree but the same thing goes for 5 series owners with regards to cross-shopping a Panamera, CLS, etc. I don't know if there is any getting around that no matter which way you slice it.

It may only be 2 out of 25 or so contributors and so it does suggest a low percentage (which is fine) but I still think that helps prove some of the points we were making. In this sampling, I didn't see the CC, the Maxima, or even the CTS (non V) and Genesis, etc. I did see the TL though and that could suggest that cross shopping between it and a 5 is a little more common than most think and perhaps the two are more comparable than most realize, even more than some other cars that also compare.

The other thing is that even though it is likely that there are many in higher income brackets ending up with a 5, where they may have the means to spend more, it is exactly the same thing I am suggesting about people more specifically in a 5 series bracket ending up with a TL. It's the same concept and there will always be this kind of overlap and spread with many kinds of cars so that doesn't necessarily mean anything all by itself.

Its funny how people can read the same thread, see totally different things & make totally different analysis. In the first 21 posts there is one mention of a TL (post #8) with the comment “what was I thinking?” after it. In the same 22 posts BMW Mercedes Audi & Infinity are mentioned in almost every one. Jaguar & CTS-V show up a few times.

In the 22nd post the OP responds, Now THAT was funny. I wonder why not too many shopped the Acura TL? A few more responses to the original question then on post #25 the first response to the OP’s second question says,

“think the reason that many didn't consider the Acura TL, is the current body styling.
to that comparing ,or considering a TL,with a 5 series is not a fair match up, as they are not in the same price class.

if you want to compare, the RL would be a fairer or more equal comparison.
the RL comes with awd and 300 hp,however its also a victim of poor styling that is outdated and overdue for a makeover.

the 300 hp awd is also available in the TL as an upgrade.”

The second response on post #27 says,

“I think in addition to the TL's looks is the fact that it is a FWD car. Most german car buyers dislike FWD. Most people I see that buy the TL that are typically german car people usually only opt for the TL SH-AWD model as that one better competes with a RWD german car in handling and feel.”

So despite saturn_o’s comment the guy does know that the car has 4X4 available but thinks its an add-on to a FWD car. With a chassis based on a Honda Accord you can see why he might think that.

In #28 the OP asks his third question “Has anyone considered the TL SH-AWD and what are your thoughts?’

This was not one poster "wondering" why more did not think about the TL it was the OP expanding on his original question.

That gets two responses,

”I consider the TL an entry level luxury car, on par with 3 series and Lexus ES350. Personally I wouldn't want to drive one in case my business partners thought I was in financial difficulty.
I'm not saying that to be offensive, just saying that most people perceive it to be an entry level luxury car. As such I think it is decent value, but I would buy the new Lexus GS before I bought a TL. There are some signs of cost cutting in Acura's that I don't like.”
&
"My mother just returned a TL from a 3 year lease. I took it on several very long trips. It has plenty of power, is fun to drive and is super reliable. It is a fine car although not a competitor to the 5 Series. The Japanese competitor to the 5 Series is the Infiniti M and perhaps the new GS350."

The thread then goes on to 43 posts going to some off topic stuff & more of the BMW, Audi, MB & Infiniti M listings.

This thread is from the dark side from people on a BMW forum but its useful because it gives you, if you want to read it, what people who actually put money into the 5 series did in cross stopping for their car.

Only one response included the TL until it was specifically solicited by the OP’s question . Its certainly a much different perspective then the cross shopping done here on a TL 4G forum.

As I said the thread is from the dark side but it does answer the other side of the question. As with EPA gas mileage your results (conclusions) may vary but I don’t really believe all these people are stupid & don't know anything about cars.

The slice is depending on options the 550 series which a number of these guys bought overlaps prices with the CLS & Panamera. I left the M5 out because it’s a special case at $92+. While the TL SH AWD which does not overlap the 5 series.

There is no reason to use the old TL support claim, "well $10 is not much of a reach" when comparing the 550 to the CLS or Panamera.

Yes there is plenty of support...a Panamera 4 starts at 80K......and you do not get that many options...with similar options the Panamera skyrocket away......

The base CLS 550 is about 20K higher than a 535 (another poster)....and Mercedes does not give you a CLS loaded with stuff at the base price...

I do not know based on what logic you say that the prices overlap.....yes if you take a bone stripper CLS or Panamera and instead you hit the option list on a 5 Series.....



Little attention to detail dear Bear-AvHistory....

In the first page (25 posts and some from the same person) 3 posters are from Europe....so no Acura there

There are quite a bit of 550i owners on that bunch....I do not expect any cross shopping there.

The variance in prices of the cars considered in their purchase can get considerable not only in relation to the 5 Series but also between the other contenders...I already mentioned the guy that had the Audi A4 and the Jetta Sportwagon in his list, another poster has the Audi S4 ($47K base) price and a Panamera ($75K base price)...I'm pretty sure you will find some "overlapping" between the two.....do you???

Page 2 are 18 posts mainly a back and forth from the same posters about the merit of the cars considered and how ugly the TL is.....only 2 new people declaring their candidates.

Yes the same poster but the word "wonder" was used....


I already mentioned the 2 posts where the TL is not considered in the same league as the 5 Series....in one of them the comment about "I do not want my business partner to think I'm in financial difficulty" is hilarious and clearly demonstrate the mindset of the poster.....there are bucket loads of people in financial difficulties that drive nice cars and live in nice houses....however that poster drives a fairly loaded 550i (with also a Dinan upgrade) so I can somewhat understand his position on the TL....

Also the poster that mentioned the TL returned from lease from his mother and consider the 5 Series a superior class of car (and it is as market segmentation as a whole) drives incidentally a 550i.

Final thoguth...pay close attention Bear-AvHistory to this point....what 5 Series the poster (Slaymaster) that asked about cross shopping the TL and "wondered" why not too many considered the TL?? A 528........wonder why???

Here is exactly of what he said:

"My mother just returned a TL from a 3 year lease. I took it on several very long trips. It has plenty of power, is fun to drive and is super reliable. It is a fine car although not a competitor to the 5 Series. The Japanese competitor to the 5 Series is the Infiniti M and perhaps the new GS350."

The words are 5 series not 550.

Saw a few guys looking at the Panamera

Their cars are listed as:

Mein auto: 2011 335d / 550i xDrive $54/$74K

Mein auto: 2011 550xi M sport $78K

Lists current as
2011 550XI ZMP,ZCW,ZAV,ZP2,610,465,5DL,2TB,416,LC ED6/28/11 (= loaded) ED= European Delivery
2011 X5.4.8
2010GLK350 4 MATIC/WIFE/

Mein auto: 2012 650 Coupe. $96K
Looks like this guy stepped up.

I think they could manage to scrape by & come up with money for the Panamera. Well maybe the two guys buying the $75K M3’s might have to skip lunch's.

Nice try: His question was tied as a response to "Acura TL (what was I thinking?)" but regardless of his intention of which you have no clue or what he drives what few responses there were not good for your case.

The responses were its ugly & its not a competitor to the 5 series then it was mentioned of the Japanese cars the Infinity M & Lexus were in the competitive mix with the 5 series. This was supported by the cross shopping lists that were posted.

There was a post that said it was a nice car but he added that the was not a 5 series competitor. No matter how you want to spin it I did not see any of the 40+ posts that said the TL should be considered in cross shopping the 5 series.

At the end of the day after 43 posts from the dark side on the 5 series site talking about 5 series cross shopping in spite of all the spinning, sidetracking & obscuration the TL ain’t in the game.

First of all, nobody ever claimed that the TL is cross shopped by everyone looking at a 5 series and everyone looking at a TL, so I am not sure what any counter argument is really trying to prove there. As far as the other thread, there were 2 people by the sampling who said they cross shopped the TL and then Phsychdoc, who we know from here as well, could just as easily make 3, even though he didn't give his list.

That's 3 out of 25 or 26 5 series owners from the site and it's sampling. That's more than 10% based on that info and it's a bit higher on this side when it comes to cross shopping the 5 and we are probably looking at around 15% total crosss shopping average based on the small samplings. It's not a tremendous number but it's not nothing either. It's probably more cross shopped with a 5 than the RL is, which most would suggest compares better.

Secondly, all of the comments on the TL relative to 5 series is great whether it comes from the Acura or the BMW site but it is mostly personal opinion and basis. It doesn't really serve the heart of the discussion that much to point out what people think about certain cars and how they relate.

Lastly, the double standards have to stop. The TL is supposedly not cross shopped with a 5 series, according to some, because of the base price differences of $11k but the 5 series is cross shopped against the CLS and Panamera, etc with no problem, when those base price gaps are $24k and $28k, respectively. That's being hypocritical as it's the same thing, if not worse. If $11k is supposed to be such a huge gap that it can't be possible for people to cross shop, then why is $28k, not a problem in the slightest? This is becoming quite comical.

To suggest it works if you slice it in favor of the 550 and how it relates to the CLS and Panamera, is the same thing as using the SH-AWD in relation to the 5, instead of comparing base prices and models. Technically, the SH trims by themselves don't overlap the 5 series, this is true, but it easily could with options and that is really no different then saying, the 550 overlaps the CLS and Porsche depending on the same type of things (options and equipment). The intial $11k gap of the 5 and TL is so much smaller to wash out the fact that the 5 gets closer to the CLS and Panamera the higher up in trim you go. Overall it's evens out IMO.

Clearly there is a double standard at work. The underlying concept is the same one, the CLS and Panamera are cars that are priced and positioned slightly above the 5 series, much like the 5 in relation to the TL. The difference here is some of us don't say it only works for the TL, because we would apply the same logic to the 5 and cars "above" it because it's not about the cars themsleves or the TL itself, it's about the concept. Why hasn't this part caught on yet?

While some of you would easily suggest it doesn't work for the TL but works for other cars when it is the same exact thing, just because it is the TL in discussion. Some of you guys really need to get over the TL or go get one and be done with it.

Look at his sig, it details 550, etc. Give the man some credit.

Yes, that is the same thing we are saying that a TL owner could scrap up the money to buy a 5 series and so price does not necessarily dismiss whether the cars are cross shopped or not. See you do actually agree.

At the end of the day, it was in the game and more than a lot of other cars that are considered to be direct competitors or more comparable. So even by the examples and evidence your side uses to dispute the notion, it actually supports it, especially when you combine it with our evidence and examples. Again, nobody is saying it is the most cross shopped vehicle relative to a 5, etc, only that it is not uncommon for it to be in that mix.

I cross shopped a horse and buggy with the TL, more horses and I would have been sold

BEAR-AvHistory I think when it comes to spinning you could compete with the latest whiz bang washing machine :wish:

Let's see...

Sure, he says 5 Series, however he drives a 550.....just saying....



Let's see...one guy mentioned the CLS550 and he own a 550i.....there is a gap betweent the base price of these 2 cars which they would be reflected if you give them similar equipment

Another mention the CLS and he own a 535i...I do not think I need to mention to you the 20K price gap between the two (base vs base)

Let's go to the Panamera shall we??

One guy which own a 550i mention a Panamera 4S and a Panamera Turbo.....let's have look at the sticker (maybe shocker for you :wish:)of these two...4S at 95K and Turbo at............136K

Another which own a 550 again mention the Panamera 4 (80K, 20K gap with a 550i, again base vs base) and the Audi A8 (not specified trim but it starts at 80K)

An M3 E92 "mein" owner mention again a Panamera 4 (60K base vs. 80K base)

Then we have another guy (already mentioned before) that shopped between a Panamera and an S4 (you do the math for the gap) and drives an M3 ("mein" car)

The only poster that drives a price comparable vehicle and mention the Panamera is the 650i guy.

By the way, a base 550i is 64K not 74K and the base 650i coupe is 83K not 96K.....do not inflate prices...

Unless you believe that all these peopel were going to order a stripper Panamera vs. a loaded 550/535 then there may be some price overlapping


Yours is a nice try......he responded to the "What I was thinking" and then reiterated (on page 2) asking "
Has anyone considered the TL SH-AWD and what are your thoughts? "

Again...he drives a 528 not a 550i.....


On a final note I do not understand why is so almost offensive for you and out of this world for you that someone may cross shop a 528/535 with a 5 Series.....and so vehemently defend the impossibility of such thing...I already posted some media links in the past that suggested this second tier comparison (the author ar ento Acurazine forum members :toocool:)...use the search function on the forum.

It seems to me that you German wagon drivers have always an urgent need to make a point and establish how superior your machinery are......this is one of the aspect that keep me away from certain brands honestly....

The difference between me with some others on this forum and BEAR-AvHistory with other folks is that if someone says that the TL is cross shopped with a Kia Optima (which is perfectly possible especially with the FWD TL) I do not give a rat ass and I do not start an all out war of words trying to prove otherwise...more power to him/her....

Now what you're talking about here is a BMW wannabe. A Wannabe is a person who would give up a nicely equipped TL and purchase a stripped down Roundel. This is NOT a BMW buyer and desides, you have to special order a stripper because they don't sell. 2 different cars with 2 different price points and for the most part (majority) 2 different shoppers with wallets of different thickness.

But I would agree a TL shopper may visit a BMW showroom.

We can agree to disagree or disagree to agree. Everyone has an opinion and for the most part, their never the same.

Heck, if the 5G is pleasing to my eye, I might visit the showroom. But I haven't stepped foot in a deaership since the 3G.

On a lighter note, How bout those New York Giants! :thumbsup:

I totally agree with you...however, there were plenty light optioned 5 Series (not bare boned stripper) at BMW of Bellevue last time I did check (during one of these interminable threads with our friend BEAR-AvHistory) and I did post the inventory to let him see for himself.....so there must me a demand for them....

Hamma, you are the clear demonstration of what I'm trying to say and that our friend Bear-AvHistory still does not get it....you simply did not like the look of the 4G and went for a 5 Series....period..without thinking about class of vehicle and so on...and evidently purchasing a TL would not have stretched your last dollar of car buying budget (as it did not with me also)...and you may come back if the 5G is of your liking.....it does not get simpler than that but some people you know.......they think too much in terms of status and badge....

Not really what I'm saying because there does not have to be such a strict MSRP only view point. A couple of guys got their 5 for $15k off sticker at that BMW site. It doesn't always have to necessary cost more just because it is priced that way but we have been over this a few times.

Most don't stretch their car budgets to max so there is room for more expenisve vehicles if it's warranted. Even if they do, one can still put more down, lease vs finance, extend the term, etc, etc. That's not a real world view of how things work IMO, it's more of a paper stat comparison.

Anyway as you said agree to disagree, if nothing more than because you brought up the Giants. Maybe we have that in common. Had the privilege of attending the majority of their playoff run and the parade, can't wait for DVD to come in the mail. If it's one thing I like more than cars, it's football and the Giants. Go Gmen! As if the thread was not off topic enough.

But he owns a 2010 Porsche 911 Carrera 4s and the 2011 528 is a beater he drives 40k miles per year.

Where you see that?? I'm referring to user Slaymaster which mention as his "mein auto" a 2011 528i Sport Package and if you open the "view my garage" link he lists the 2011 528 and a 2009 535i Sport Package...I do not see any 911 Carrera mentioned anywhere about him.

I can assure you he does own one, I know him very well. :thumbsup:

Ok but I could not see that from the web site....interesting that as Porsche owner he kept pressing the issue with a post on page 2, I quote "Has anyone considered the TL SH-AWD and what are your thoughts?" :wish:

On a different note, what it really shocked me is the user Jason60050 which he claims (if we can believe him, it is the internet after all) he was able to get his 535i at about 15K off sticker in Chicago....just for kicks I tried to configure from the BMWUSA site his car with the options he listed, coming at about 62K MSRP...that is almost 25% off......is like being able to get a 45K TL for 33K.....good luck with that......and we are talking about the segment leader here (the 5 Series) which sell like hotcakes.

An other 535i user in South FLorida replied to this guy Jason 15K off sticker post with "likewise"........

Either BMW give the cars away in some cases, the dealers were in bankrupcy or some extremely aggressive weird corporate program ....very strange indeed.....

What discount did you get for your 5 Series Hamma???

Had a good time last night 2 for 2 against an M3 6MT from a standing start over an 1/8th mile on an industrial park entrance road. Pulled clear of him very quickly even on the first one when I screwed up & spun the wheels excessively on the cold pavement.

So back to the cross shopping wars.

Despite the all the nonsense about some 550, 650 & M3 guys listing a Panamera or someone listing a VW as a choice its not relevant its just misdirection. What is relevant is that no one even mentioned a TL in the 5 series shopping mix till it was specifically brought up. Once it was brought up I did not see a response that said they did indeed shop for a TL. Its said by winstrolvtec that 3 did, I must have missed two of them (can I please have the post #’s).

The third one that was then used to build all kinds of ratio’s & percentages was from former 4G owner PsychDoc1. Doc says nothing about a TL in the shopping mix & just has a comment on the prior posters Audi statement that he did not like the Audi. No one knows if he shopped another TL or just moved on up. I never shopped one when I sold my 3G so he may or may not have. As of now he can’t be counted.

The only clear comments I saw about the TL were in response to the OP’s questions & those responses were its not a 5 series competitor in their view & their view is what I am talking about in that thread not the two interpretations of their views posted here.

For whatever reason there is a major attempt to change what the 5 series thread from what it said, the 4G was not cross shopped, into some of the choices on the list are invalid. Invalid or not in the opinion of winstrolvtec or saturno the thread says what it says about actual 5 series buyers not cross shopping the 4G.

They also look at it conveniently in a one on one eliminating the 550/650 guys, all of whom have multiple cars as not belonging in the mix. Here the 3G was as common as dog turds as the 3rd or 4th car in a family & the HS parking lots are still full of them. The lack of them in neighborhood after a number of years in the marketplace & in the thread in question even after being asked about them is telling.

As for the 4G being cross shopped with the Kia etc. it has been posted here. People here are always saying that they cross shopped BMW, MB, Audi etc., what the 5 series thread does is just post the view from the other side. I suppose one of you could pose the same question on a MB & Audi forum & see what turns up, you might have better luck.

Here what Edmunds says

Edmunds

BMW550
Invoice $75,345
MSRP $81,995
Selling price $77,334

TL SH AWD
Invoice $42,710
MSRP $$45,970
Selling price $44,199

Looks like the 550 is about $1990 over invoice & the SH AWD is about $1500 over invoice

Took another look through the thread & did find one TL in the lists, but as said above the guy did recant his decision to look at it.

On the VW cross shop y’all are having fun with he bought two 2011 BMW’s 535i/335D & is looking to buy a M3 or IS convertible this summer. He said they looked at the VW for the wife but she went with the 335D. He also said “The 335D won without even trying”

The other VW tester I saw was much like saturno & plopped his butt into everything he could imagine, looks like 17 cars on his list, wound up with a 535.

Lots of posting..sorry but this happens when you have to hang around the house for the morning. :)

Just save yourself the trouble and get the TL... :)

From bmwusa (they build the thing)

MSRP for a 550i, 62K....of course base trim

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...ct5jfmwsXbxK8o=

Maybe Edmunds take in consideration in its calculation an average optioned 550i....right?

This thread has run its course as it has deviated from the intended subject matter (again).