Moneyman2011

A friend of mine was trying to decide on getting an 11 or a 12 so he drove them back to back with a G-Tech Pro. He calibrated the device properly and then hit the road on an extended test drive in each car successively. He was told not to drive more than 50 miles on each car. Well he called me afterwards with something puzzling. He said that the 0-60 for the 11 SH-AWD Tech package ran 6.11. The 12 SH-AWD Advance package ran 5.98. Both runs were run with traction control on in auto and not loading the brakes prior. Now both cars had less than 100 miles on them so they were equally green (no advantage to either).

Here is what I am trying to figure out. I don’t know what the gearing differences are, but based on what my friend told me originally who worked on the Acura TL redesign and is very close to the engineering project, the numbers for the 12 are slower than I expected. Maybe people who drive the 12 and think it is much faster than the 11 are being fooled. I doubt anyone can really tell the difference of .13 in a 0-60.

I’m still enjoying my 11 and don’t wish I waited for the 12. The 12 looks like it was neutered to be more mainstream and less controversial. It is good to be different.

KillerG

interesting, and great detective work might i add.

Of course 0-60 isnt the end all as far as performance is concerned but its nice to see some numbers behind the '12.

On the bright side though, its still marginally faster : )

jasonwdp10

When i test drove both the 2012 Base and SHAWD Advanced models, they felt about as fast as my 2010 Base and SHAWD Techs. (Which both don't feel fast) I'm sure it's somewhat faster, but i'd guess there is at most a .5 sec difference between them.

The transmission shifted earlier (it shifted out of first gear very quickly), and shifted slightly smoother, slightly faster, but besides that, it felt largely the same and I wasn't as impressed as I thought I would be. (which is one of the reasons I will not be getting into a 2012 model)

This, to me, is acura barely catching up. I mean MY2012 for the TL to get a 6 speed auto? the camry and ES350 has had it since 07? 06 for the IS and GS?

MD-DRIVER

1st question, they let your friend take a test drive up to 50 miles - wow that's a long test drive.

- sub 6 sec 0-60 on this size car is fast (actually fast in any car) - add in the SH-AWD handling and I think this will be a fun car - now if I can only find a SH-AWD to test drive

Brrr

Out here in Atlantic Canada, they throw you the keys, tell you there's a full tank of gas and that they close at 6. Have fun.

Took me a while to get used to the very different attitude they have out here compared to good 'ol Toronto. At my dealer, I'm known as the "guy who doesn't trust anyone".

Moneyman2011

He has purchased 11 cars over the years from this dealer complex including 5 exotics. His garage must look like Tiger's. The only reason he is even looking at the TL is because I took him for a ride in mine on Friday. He was looking at a BMW 535i x-drive and an MB E550 AWD, but felt the TL not only stacked up against them very well, he actually preferred it over the Germans. I think that is saying something.

Personally I drove another friend's 535i on Saturday and got out of the car thinking, "they want $65k for that car?" It was very nice for sure, but I did not feel it had $27k more value or performance. In fact I felt that it was slower than the TL. It felt heavy and bulky. The handling was light years behind the TL in the turns. On the highway it was awesome, and was very difficult to stay under 90 mph, but getting on the gas was not a thrilling or even satisfying experience. If I drove both cars back to back without knowing what i was driving, I would pick the TL anytime and everytime.

On a side note I am sending my ZR1 to Hennessey Performance to transform it into the Hennessey ZR1 750. It leaves on the flatbed tomorrow. 5 weeks and my beast will be back! Pictures to follow when I get them. Check out this video of what it will be like: http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/...-corvette.html

jasonwdp10

In southern california you'll be lucky to get more than 2 miles on a test drive. Anything in the double digits is unheard of.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

nice info for comparison purposes... we were all expecting the 2012 6AT to be a little quicker on its feet, then the antiquated 5AT in the 2009-2011

However, I gotta say... VSA off and paddle shifting, makes a tremendous difference in acceleration and times. Your friend, should have also tried that.

When VSA is on, for some reason it chokes up the throttle between 2k-3k RPM.. i am assuming this has something to do with the TQ vectoring algorithm and the SH-AWD system trying to understand where to send the power, equally and fairly.

i used to be so concerned with 0-60 and performance times and all that stuff...honestly, i dont drag race kids on the streets.... nobody can tell the difference between .25/seconds... and i am more concerned with the sweet interior, technology and ride quality... I am driving a 2+ ton AWD sedan. If i want to go bananas, i would pick up an old RWD project and invest my money into that.

HOWEVER, these Michelin tires are killlllling me... I bet any UHP Summer times, or the HPTs would shave about .2 - .5 seconds off

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

Wow.. that is probably the best way to summarize the MMC in my opinion...

nice analogy. but i do love the new headlights

MD-DRIVER

of course you would never be able to tell the difference while you are driving

YetiTL

You can go to this site to read about the gear ratios for both 6AT and MT:

http://www.japanesesportcars.com/201...ecs_18030.html

And the 2009-2011 5 AT

http://www.japanesesportcars.com/201...ecs_15114.html

So bottom line: the 6AT is very close to the 6MT, much closer than to the 5AT.

My guess is that you should use the paddles and not use normal drive mode. Drive mode has probably been dumbed down to keep RPM low, FE as high as possible and lower the NVH as part as the refined ride mantra. Also, grippy PS2 versus lousy RS-A and VSA OFF should help.

Incidently, mags like edmunds got the 2009 TL to do 0-60 in what...6,7 secs and Road and Track got it in 5.9 I think so the gap is huge...

I must thank you for your research, you've been a great help!

For the record, I'm in the middle of setting my new life but I plan on going to a drag strip this summer and test the new car, if it's a 2012 TL, I'll report!
---------------------------
To Jasonwdp10: As to the number of gears, it's a dead horse, there is so much variables that prescribe the right number of gears. I prefer a good 6AT to a 7 or 8 gears autobox that constantly hunts for the right gear. I understand what you mean but if we have a solid, trouble free 6AT that requires minimal maintenance while providing great FE and performance, what's more to ask? The G25 got the same FE numbers than the FWD TL with 200-300 pounds less and a 7AT and a measly 218/185 engine...So I give kudos to Acura for the work done.

My and I'm not picking on you my friend.

-----------------

Hamma Tyme

Take no offense MM but the ZR1 is equipped with 638hp and 604lbs of torque. Why buy another 100hp and maybe another 100 lbs of torque? The car is an animal in it's current set up. Are they doing something more to the suspension and replacing body parts with a ultra light materials? Seems 20k+ for an extra 100hp alone is a total waste of money, man.... IMHO of course.

deeblew

I'm very surprised that acura hasn't released official numbers yet. When I was researching cars, I always weeny by the official manufacturer numbers as a basis. So it was 6.7 for the TL.

Rocketsfan

When I was looking to buy my new 1997 Maxima back then, the dealership told me to take the car for the weekend. LOL.

Bearcat94

Hopefully, you're one of the 90-some percent. GL.

http://www.300cforums.com/forums/249596-post10.html



(old story, but indicative of common practice from what I've read)

zman1910

I suspect that Acura is controlling when to release the specs on the 2012 model....so as a result the mags haven't posted the results yet either.

It's probably due to the fact that there are still many 2011's they need to get rid of. I would expect them to release it very soon now as its been about a month now.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

^^

Acura never releases specific 0-60 times anymore. has nobody not noticed that for, at least the past 5 years?

Last car i recall specific 0-60 (aside from the NSX) was the 2G 3.2L Type-S


Acura usually sways from it, because
a) you can be held accountable to a false claim, and probably get sued in this day and age
b) Acura can't compete with the competition... most of the jazzier sedans in this class are ridiculously faster than the TL

Acura finally developed a great drive train (instead of the transverse mount FWD on the 3G) and totally blew all performance metrics by making the car 2 tons.

Ruby

A bit off topic, but my car is getting the 105k service done and they gave me a 12 awd tech loaner. A few days ago I was getting work done and I had an 11 tech. Both AT. Wow what a difference. The 6 AT shifts so smoothly you can't even feel it. I felt the 11 shifted a lot like my car maybe a Tad smoother. But fir the people bashing the new auto trans, it really is a big improvement not to mention faster with better MPG.

Moneyman2011

He is my partner's client. I doubt he would give us any trouble. The beast left today in the rain on the flat bed to get its upgrades. I have been given a turn around date of May 17th, as parts are already there in the shop, and all replaced parts are going to be returned to me upon delivery.

Someone commented that the car already has 638 hp, why would I want more? This is something I wanted to do for a long time after the original beast was killed by a tree that took out the garage in a storm. That car was modified by Lingenfelter, and was almost undrivable because of the explosive power. This modification will be far tamer, but very effective. I can unload a lot of stress just running up through 3rd gear right now, that will just be intensified all the more. My job is very intense and this is just what the doctor ordered.

Moneyman2011

I like the new headlights too. One intersting thing: I drove the TL last night to a Mets game and with a 1,000 lbs of baseball fans in the car, the usual bobble that accompanies most cars with a full load of people was NOT there! The car handled in every way as if it was just me alone in the car. That was an unexpected thing! I guess the new suspension design is much better than that of the 04TL I had previously. Very nice Acura!

PS: the Mets lost 7 - 6 to the Rockies. I am a Yankee's fan, but free suite tickets are nothing to pass on.

01clsstock

no you definilty cant pass up the free suite tickets and that corvette is going to be awesome.. Congrats

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

the early 3G TLs were the WORST with that.. my 06 (and occasionally my 08) felt very, very unstable with 3-4 adults in the car..

the 4G is no problems what so ever, but i do notice the extra weight. obviously power is lost, and the steering/handling is a noticeably affected, but not dangerously

ostrich

Yes! You are right on the money - the new 6AT is smooth like butter! The car feels faster, lighter on its feet and quieter too. I love it!

MD-DRIVER

You have some large friends

jnc2000

I had to LOL at this comment - smooth shifting means the clutches are slipping while shifting - which means clutch wear on the AT. ... we all know where this is headed. My SH-AWD is getting drained and filled with a Redline ATF... Don't need no stinking transmission issues like I had on my 3rd gen...

Edward'TLS

The new 6AT will blip the throttle on downshifts, meaning faster and smoother shifts when the PCM is speeding up the transmission gears to closely match the vehicle speed. It is not using the gear clutches to do the rev matching.

And especially the 6AT has one more gear ratio, the six forward gears can now have much closely gear ratios than the previous 5AT. This all equals to faster and smoother gear shiftings.

If you think your 3G tranny is bad, then the 2G TL/CL tranny is HELL.

jnc2000

Oh I don't think the 4G tranny is bad by any means... but when I start messing with adding boost and pushing more power through the power train than the transmission was originally engineered for - there is no way I'm going with the OEM fluid; beit 5AT 6AT or 6MT - I do being the transmissions are more robust than the previous generations... but if and when a good tune comes out via the AEM FIC (or another ECU) and someone figures out how to stuff a turbo in the SH-AWD - believe me we'll want a better fluid.

crxb

when I 1st drove the 09 TL I thought it shifted much smoother than my 04 TL. I haven't driven the 12 yet, but I do wish my 09 had a 6th gear to drop the rpms on the highway and improve mpg

Moneyman2011

225 lbs - me (driver)
250 lbs - friend # 1 est
250 lbs - friend # 2 est
270 lbs - friend # 3 est - big dude. He played football in college at Michigan with another buddy of mine Gregory Skrepenak who was drafted to play with the Raiders (he was in the front seat). He can still rip a phone book clean through by just grabbing it and ripping it!

Edward'TLS

Will your friends-loaded car bottom out when it goes through bumps ?

Moneyman2011

No problems going over the Whitestone Bridge. The only speed bumb I'm going to hit is a Democrat in Congress. They have no brains, no hearts, and no balls!

boomvader

Having driven my 2009 over 46k miles in less than 2 years and having already put 2500 miles on the 2012, I can safely say that not only does it feel faster, but it is extremely smooth to drive. Much more than the '09. Great car. I am very satisfied with it!

deeblew

I got to 1000 miles today and started flooring my car 0-60 and was getting about 6.1 on my stopwatch in S mode.

CalgaryAWDTL

I have gotten the same time many times with my '10 so not sure where all this about the '12 possibly being .5 sec faster with 6spd auto came from a while back. Just rumours?

If there's a local '12 TL AWD in Calgary who would like to test this by racing our cars, I'd be in. Just curious.....

Hamma Tyme

That would be me. The car you're sending away is sweet no doubt, but what are they doing to the car for 20k+? I understand the 100HP & additional torque, but it seems for the additional horsepower and torque it's pretty darn expensive. What else are they doing for your toy?

Hamma Tyme

Now isn't THAT the truth!

draph

Peaky engines need more gears to enable staying in the power band when accelerating.

The actual small difference between 5AT and 6AT is a testament that the Honda J series engines have some of the flatter torque curves of normally aspirated 6 cyl engines.

The Infiniti 3.7, in my humble opinion, needs 7 gears a lot more than Acura needs 6.

Number of cogs in the transmission should not be a determining factor in purchase decisions - you have to look at the whole drive train package, and pay attention to gear ratios. I bet the Acura 6AT gives more of a "stump puller" first gear for a bit better off the line acceleration feel and a taller 6th gear for better highway gas mileage. The extra gear in between compared to the 5AT probably doesn't make as noticeable of a difference.

Moneyman2011

http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/...-corvette.html

What you see and hear on this link is what I am getting. I did not want NO2, nor a different supercharger. This will be a dyno proven 755 hp or 648 whp. The sound is raw and primal. I am skipping the special badges. The car arrived on the 13th and is already pulled apart. The new cam and ported/polished heads are already done along with the headers. John called me to tell me that they are running ahead of schedule and may have it done within two weeks including testing. They are installing new rear tires after they test (no charge). Also they are putting in new trans and diff fluid as well as a trans cooler. It will be a lot of fun to drive. A bunch of my buddies with much more exotic cars are going to get together once I get the beast back for a cruise. We are going to drive out to the Hamptons and do a make shift car show with all of our rides. Should be cool!

Bearcat94

4G's just aren't getting it done (yet). Even the 3.7's. Maybe they're not as quick as people think and/or as quick as they feel.

http://www.dragtimes.com/Acura--TL-Drag-Racing.html


Would like to see some MT and '12 AT times posted though. Those ought to rank higher, I'd think.