2010 Acura TL SH-AWD 6MT First Drive - it beats S4 and 335 on track
10-01-2008, 08:25 AM
#41
AZ Community Team
May be it doesn't "freeze" you or some others, but I already know people who is now interested in the TL SH-AWD 6MT. Just go over to TOV and you will see what I mean. One of them is Shawn Church by the way, the owner of Church Automotive. Bottom line is, no, this tactic is not, and will not capture everyone, but it does work on some people, and that's the goal.
By "barely beating" I would assume you are referring to the lap times. In the racing world, a 2 seconds difference per lap in a short track is huge, so "barely" isn't the right word here.
The NSX has never been designed to take sales away from other sports/super cars. It's more about showing off to the world what Honda is capable of. For instance, the original NSX was produced because Honda was having huge success in Formula 1 (6 consecutive championships I believe). But in the consumer market, all they had were the bread and butter Accord and Civic. There's obviously a missing link between these family cars and F1, so the NSX was born. So, really, it's more about reputation, improving the brand image, rather than stealing sales. Hell, Honda was losing money on each NSX they made!
By "barely beating" I would assume you are referring to the lap times. In the racing world, a 2 seconds difference per lap in a short track is huge, so "barely" isn't the right word here.
The NSX has never been designed to take sales away from other sports/super cars. It's more about showing off to the world what Honda is capable of. For instance, the original NSX was produced because Honda was having huge success in Formula 1 (6 consecutive championships I believe). But in the consumer market, all they had were the bread and butter Accord and Civic. There's obviously a missing link between these family cars and F1, so the NSX was born. So, really, it's more about reputation, improving the brand image, rather than stealing sales. Hell, Honda was losing money on each NSX they made!
, yep the NSX apparently never made any money when the cost of design/development/production was amortized over it's product life cycle. There was a good article about Honda/Acura it a few years ago in the Wall Street which had a section on the NSX. The production facility for it was capable of 25 cars per day and were manufacturing around 5 toward the end of the production run. The Honda board and senior executives would not commit to any major upgrade beyond simple engine displacement (3.0L->3.2L) and gearbox increase (5MT->6MT). I also thought that facility was devoted solely to the NSX due to it's line configuration that was designed for low-rate production. I thought the S2000 was built at another facility all together. Honda senior executives were also furious at marketing managers in their over optimistic view of the exotic car market. Dependable and excellent performance didn't necessary couple into the exotic appeal of a Ferrari and Porsche names.
10-01-2008, 01:19 PM
#42
The 4G was lapping 2 seconds faster on a 1.6 mile track, that's not "barely beating" that's pretty far ahead if you've ever been to a track. It will be interesting to see what the competition has for 2010 but to improve by two seconds a lap would be a leap.
However I agree with others in this thread that this was mearly a teaser intro to attract some interest in the 2010 6MT AWD. And remember the cars were preped by Honda so it didn't give the press drivers a chance to adjust simple things like tire pressure. One thing that alot of sport motorcycle comparison tests do is to put the same tires on all the bike to remove tires from the equation.
However I agree with others in this thread that this was mearly a teaser intro to attract some interest in the 2010 6MT AWD. And remember the cars were preped by Honda so it didn't give the press drivers a chance to adjust simple things like tire pressure. One thing that alot of sport motorcycle comparison tests do is to put the same tires on all the bike to remove tires from the equation.
As someone mentioned earlier, a simple manufacture tire upgrade could cut that 2 second gap in half. Once the S4 is released in the spring with a lighter more powerful drivetrain and torque vectoring which is to equal or outperform SH-AWD this 2 gap could be swallowed up very quick....only question really is the tires. If this does happen then you have a 2009 model year car outperforming a 2010 car in this one test category....this wont make this test look to smart then.
Like mentioned earlier, its a good marketing tool. Honda brought out their best and found a (short) track that it would perform its best on and made sure it outperformed everyone, then called people to come see the results.
I personally dont like these type of manufacture gimmicks or marketing. Make sure its a current production car, give it to the independent testers and let them have at it. In a year or so from now when the 6MT is released i am sure the results wont be the same from an independent test because of some variable such as a longer track or competition upgrades and then everyone will be up in arms because of this Honda backed test.
I do agree with you about the NSX and Hondas marketing on that. The NSX was a good car with some nice engineering that went into it, but from a consumer standpoint back in 1994 $150,000 Cdn for a V6 and a 5sp auto was outrageous compared to other exotics.....
10-01-2008, 01:49 PM
#43
You see it as a rigged invitation, I see it as a way to do it as fair as possible by inviting auto journalists to do the driving. Of course things will change in a year. Audi or BMW might want to make sure they'll beat the Acura next time around and they might raise their game, resulting in more and better options for all 6MT drivers.
Again, Is the glass half empty or half full?
10-01-2008, 02:44 PM
#44
Is the glass half empty or half full?
You see it as a rigged invitation, I see it as a way to do it as fair as possible by inviting auto journalists to do the driving. Of course things will change in a year. Audi or BMW might want to make sure they'll beat the Acura next time around and they might raise their game, resulting in more and better options for all 6MT drivers.
Again, Is the glass half empty or half full?
You see it as a rigged invitation, I see it as a way to do it as fair as possible by inviting auto journalists to do the driving. Of course things will change in a year. Audi or BMW might want to make sure they'll beat the Acura next time around and they might raise their game, resulting in more and better options for all 6MT drivers.
Again, Is the glass half empty or half full?
With all due respect Colin, I believe you are a salesman for an Acura dealer. So you are going to see this from a Bias point of view rather than an subjective one.
Setting up a test where you pre select the track for you benefit (why a short track instead of a longer one) then selecting the outdated S4 (why the 335 and Not the M3). Then invite some auto journalists to come drive the cars is an obvious set up. You or I could have gone to test the cars and i could have told you the outcome before testing, once realising who set the test up.
As far as Audi or Bmw beating Acura next time is my whole point. When the 2009 S4 is released it will most likely beat out the new TL in this one small category and it will still have a model year in hand...(unless Acura gets lucky and Audi holds off and announces it as a 2010).
We are kinda beating a dead horse though. You obviously see this as a great test because it potentially could help you in the pocket book which i understand totally. I on the other hand from a consumer and more subjective side see this as a setup and hate it when any manufacturer does this.
10-01-2008, 03:09 PM
#45
Is the glass half full or half empty doesn't really matter.
With all due respect Colin, I believe you are a salesman for an Acura dealer. So you are going to see this from a Bias point of view rather than an subjective one.
We are kinda beating a dead horse though. You obviously see this as a great test because it potentially could help you in the pocket book which i understand totally. I on the other hand from a consumer and more subjective side see this as a setup and hate it when any manufacturer does this.
With all due respect Colin, I believe you are a salesman for an Acura dealer. So you are going to see this from a Bias point of view rather than an subjective one.
We are kinda beating a dead horse though. You obviously see this as a great test because it potentially could help you in the pocket book which i understand totally. I on the other hand from a consumer and more subjective side see this as a setup and hate it when any manufacturer does this.
You keep insisting that it's a 'set up' as if this invalidates the results. Why not go to Road America? Maybe because it's in Wisconsin and not in Ohio where the TL is made? Maybe because it's not safe for journalists to barrel through 'hurry downs' in a car without a roll cage? Maybe it costs too much to provide corner workers or safety gear for a 4 mile track.
There are any number of practical reasons for the track selection beyond beyond a conspiracy to fool a few folks (5% of the buyers) that might even care or would read the article(s).
As for testing production versions of the cars in a year. I fully expect the newer versions to excel, as I fully expect them to tiny on the inside and more expensive. Is a current M3 even in the same price range? Is it offered with AWD (really I'm asking cause I don't know).
In the end, it's just a sneak peek of whats to come, and this might be reason enough to have a little track day. Heck, any excuse for a track day should be reason enough.
This is what I mean by is the glass half empty or half full?
10-01-2008, 05:40 PM
#46
Racer
Evidently you aren't a very trusting person.
Acura is setting us all up with this test and Colin trying to sell us cars. Doesn't seem like there's any point in arguing about it.
Acura is setting us all up with this test and Colin trying to sell us cars. Doesn't seem like there's any point in arguing about it.
10-01-2008, 08:53 PM
#47
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, yep the NSX apparently never made any money when the cost of design/development/production was amortized over it's product life cycle. There was a good article about Honda/Acura it a few years ago in the Wall Street which had a section on the NSX. The production facility for it was capable of 25 cars per day and were manufacturing around 5 toward the end of the production run. The Honda board and senior executives would not commit to any major upgrade beyond simple engine displacement (3.0L->3.2L) and gearbox increase (5MT->6MT). I also thought that facility was devoted solely to the NSX due to it's line configuration that was designed for low-rate production. I thought the S2000 was built at another facility all together. Honda senior executives were also furious at marketing managers in their over optimistic view of the exotic car market. Dependable and excellent performance didn't necessary couple into the exotic appeal of a Ferrari and Porsche names.
10-01-2008, 08:59 PM
#48
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cp3117, I don't see how independent tests can be very trustworthy either. I mean one company can pay big money to the car magazine....or...the manufacturer can simply supply a tuned car....
10-01-2008, 09:12 PM
#49
AZ Community Team
[quote=cp3117;1004
I do agree with you about the NSX and Hondas marketing on that. The NSX was a good car with some nice engineering that went into it, but from a consumer standpoint back in 1994 $150,000 Cdn for a V6 and a 5sp auto was outrageous compared to other exotics.....[/quote]
Don't know about the Canadian prices but in the US the NSX was always less expensive than Ferrari 348/355 and even Porsche 911. A 1995 US model was $73K. It won many of the comparison test against those cars also. Technically it was superior when it came out and up to the mid 90's, but with no update it became old when later 360 and latest 911's came on the scene.
I do agree with you about the NSX and Hondas marketing on that. The NSX was a good car with some nice engineering that went into it, but from a consumer standpoint back in 1994 $150,000 Cdn for a V6 and a 5sp auto was outrageous compared to other exotics.....[/quote]
Don't know about the Canadian prices but in the US the NSX was always less expensive than Ferrari 348/355 and even Porsche 911. A 1995 US model was $73K. It won many of the comparison test against those cars also. Technically it was superior when it came out and up to the mid 90's, but with no update it became old when later 360 and latest 911's came on the scene.
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