TiggaMan909

Interesting Article:

http://www.autospies.com/news/2010-A...n-track-35233/

1st Place: While the 2010 Acura TL SH-AWD 6MT might not have the horsepower to keep up on the straight with any of these other sport sedans, it works best by far in the corners and made up time over its competition in speed at the apex and at the exit. At nearly every corner, the SH-AWD was so astute and intelligent that you could literally slap the go pedal to the carpet and let the all-wheel drive sort out how best to put the power to good use. And yes, these optional 245/40ZR19 Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 tires (the largest and stickiest of any of the tires in the entire group) really help, but it was in combination with the SH-AWD where the rubber really made a difference. This car carves the corners.

princelybug

iTrader: (16)

Nice. But this still does not make up for the 4G TL's exterior, even though the availability of a 6MT will be great. Hmmm, I wonder what the Type-S will be like?

TiggaMan909

I gotta admit im not a huge fan of the exterior styling.. but the more and more I look, it is definitely starting to grow on me!

Shoot2Thrill

Hard to believe the N54 has no low end torque. On the street it would be no contest. A 335i compares to a RS4. Not to mention JB3 and V3 etc..

I look forward to more work by Chris Walton, Edmunds Chief Road Test Editor aka sell out!

ILoveMy1999RL

Honestly, I was appalled by the styling in photos, but a few weeks ago the dealer gave me a sneak peek at the new TL in the gorgeous dark blue...he brought me around to the back of the lot n took off the tarp and honestly......it looks MUCH better in person...i was relieved even tho i cant afford one lol but i WILL be getting one eventually. so word of advice...SERIOUSLY, DON'T KNOCK IT TILL YOU SEE IT IN PERSON and BTW...the metal trim on the interior is real, (i sat in it too) and yes it did kick S4 and 335i butt thanks to the torque variability of the SH-AWD

Shoot2Thrill

dyno butt?

ILoveMy1999RL

not so much.....i meant that it corners eons better due to the AWD shifting torque to the outermost wheels in a hard turn......but real world performance kicks dyno numbers anyday in my book...if you want the fastest of the fast, dont buy an acura....but an all around solid package with great features and still a 0-60 in 5.5? and now bragging rights over an S4 and a 335i on a twisty track? thats good enough for me.

Jason1000RR

Awesome find, TiggaMan909!

Shoot2Thrill

One sell out writes a toilet paper piece about a not in production 2010 hummer face with no data declaring the "king is dead" and you wake up wet and warm -OK. But 100+ ft/lbs at 1400 rpm count for something. Acura has turned the TL into a Maxima.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I think you missed these articles:

Official testing numbers from Acura:
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...&page_number=3

Numbers from Jeff at TOV:
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...&page_number=2

Shoot2Thrill

Your right, I did miss those. But then they are Honda based sites in one case sighting the same Acura sponsored track day. I expected more from Edmunds to spot a set up. You have people here saying the new TL is no 335i. To even sight a Z06 etc.. is just absurd. I would bet Acura f'd with the BMW. The N54 is maybe the greatest engine to hit production in years. Nissan f'd with the 3 series same way when they rolled out the G37. Yet. time has shown the another story. Wait for production cars on independent test or youtube etc.. Or on the other enjoy the pre-production fairy tale.

Colin

So youtube has become the automotive authority? Sorry but I don't buy it. VTEC.net had been anything but a Honda/Acura fan site lately, Jeff is seriously not impressed with the size of the new TL or it's apparent direction. Edmunds has not been a huge fan of the brand lately. For them to write the things they have, is encouraging to say the least.

Yes its a pre production car, and yes things will change between now and when it's released. BUT on this day, with these conditions, the TL came out on top. You're the one living in fairy tail land in this case.

becker800

Gotta chime in here..
I owned a 05 TL for 3 years and now own a 335i coupe with JB3 so im not BMW biased. Both have their perks.

I test drove the new TL yesterday and there is no possible way, it will beat a stock 335i, and especially not with JB3.

even when a supercharger comes out for the TL, it still wont compare to a JB3 335i.

While the interior I think is better in the TL, performance wise, it doesn't really compare. Especially with the low end tourque maps coming out for the JB3

LIPPSTUH

iTrader: (2)

the new sh-awd tl won't beat it on a straight away, but on a track idk... acura does produce good handling cars surprisingly even for their fwd line up..

wasn't there a japanese article on how the 3rd gen tl beat the is350?


its not too hard to believe when acura's awd system is INSANELY good.

zot09

Come on guys, the TL has PS2's on it. Slap PS2's on the E90 and it would be a totally different story.

nore03

Uh how many people in this room have actually driven a car equipped with the SH-AWD system? I tell you right now driving that thing aggressively is insane. i for one am not surprised.

Colin

Probably true, but that wasn't the parameter of this test. Acura stated the ordered the highest spec of the cars they selected, if BMW does not offer PS2s from the factory, then the car tested wouldn't have them.

zot09

True true...the car is still pretty ugly though Just had to throw that in there...lol

Colin

Yeah, those Bangle BMWs are anything but graceful...

LIPPSTUH

iTrader: (2)

tell that to the bmw driver... a win is a win... get over it. its ugly, still kicked some german ass.


its ugly, not as well balanced, not the most powerful car, not the only awd car in the test, it is an acura... but it won.... weird....

/thread

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I definitely agree that we should wait for independent testing with production cars. But like Colin said, VTEC.net, though it's a site for Honda enthusiasts, the reviews there are very neutral. If you read the 2009 TL review, you will see what I mean.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

A supercharged TL/CL with a few mods will trap at ~105mph, that's enough to keep up with a 335i in a straight line.

The TL you driven is the FWD model with 5AT and a 3.5L engine. That's quite different than the SH-AWD 6MT model with 3.7L engine. Besides, if you read the article, it's not beating the 335i in a straight line, it's on a track, where handling is important as well.

handy911

it's pretty surprising...335i is supposedly to have better handling on track than the rest of the car....or so I've heard....

but it could be true, since a similar article from Car and Driver also mentions that the TL is superior...even though their stupid ass biased opinion still thinks the 335i won, but the TL beat all the other cars.

PetesTL

In my opinion, the 4G TL (and even the 'ol 2G and 3G's) competes directly not with the 335i but with the 328i...esp. in terms of price. Because a fully loaded 335i or 335Xi (with Nav, Bluetooth, upgraded stereo, etc) will easily sticker over $50K. (In my opinion, the only true direct competiton to the 335i in terms of price and performance are the Audi S4 and Mercedes C350). Including me, I think the vast majority of people who end up choosing the TL do it because price is a major factor. BMW buyers hardly ever place price as a major factor. Esp. now with the redesign, the bigger 4G TL has become more of a luxury sporty sedan than an all-out sports sedan like the 3 series. In my opinion, if you factor in price, performance, and value, the most direct competition to the TL now are the Infiniti G35, Cadillac CTS, BMW 328i, Mercedes C300, Chrysler 300C, Lincoln MKS, and Lexus ES350/IS250.

zot09

I concur, they're no where near as classy/timeless as the E46 or E39.

Don't get me wrong, this is great news for Acura. I'm proud that our company is finally coming out with more competitive cars for us enthusiasts. I predict within the next decade, Acura will finally be considered a "real" luxury brand, once they [hopefully] start phasing out FWD.

cp3117

So Acura ordered the highest spec of cars they selected and they just happen to put on much better tires on their pre-production 2010 model car for a track comparison against 2008 model year competitors. They also arranged this test and prepped the cars.....Good for Acura if this is how they want to show how great they are....

The M3 has tires comparable to what the TL was using and i would be surprised if they still offer that tire option come 2010 once it becomes production as Acura is know to always use lower quality tires once it comes to crunch time (look at first generation TSX).

I cant believe this test is even a big concern being there is no S4 for 2009 as Audi is announcing their new 3.0L supercharged 333Hp V-6 at the Paris car show along with a 7sp DSG.....Come 2010 lets do another test of production cars and see what happens as the competion is already looking to succeed what Acura is bragging about now.......this test just makes no sense.

I just wish Acura could design a 6sp auto let alone a 7sp and jump into the new century with everyone else......

Sorry for the rant guys but out of the japanese auto makers i love Acura the best yet, they just keep disappointing me.

LIPPSTUH

iTrader: (2)

2nd gen tl/cl are boats and will not handle for crap on a track... i don't believe so. i mean i have a few great suspension mods and take turns... but its nothing to brag about.

the 3rd gen tl is where handling became more prominent. now this 4th gen has gotten way better with sh-awd and i'm proud of them.... hate the styling still.

it just goes to show that performance... doesn't just stay in the engine bay. the dynamics of the car as a whole is what matters to me. if you want a quick car, look into american muscle...

more power doesn't mean you'll win on the track...

ILoveMy1999RL

Considering the TL with 305HP and SH-AWD isn't even out yet, i highly doubt that that is the one that you test drove. It's the one that was used for the comparison test that kicked ass. You test drove the FWD 280HP version.

Legend2TL

Yeah, I gotta love all the doubter's in this thread and their idea of independent testers (Youtube? ). I also look forward to a non-manufacturers sponsored test by Edmunds in the future.

Also the reverse can happen, the BMW Roundel had a test where they dyno'ed consumer 335i's which were much less than the 335i factory supplied car they dyno'ed leading to speculation the ECU was not the same configuration as the consumer cars. I thought the factory 335i had like ~300WHP, and the consumer's were in the 270-275 range?

PetesTL

Before I got my 4G TL, I asked some guys at the dealership ( a couple of whom are service guys who happen to be long time TL owners themselves)...a couple of months before the release of the 4G, these guys got to test drive both the FWD and AWD versions of the 4G TL along with a BMW 3 series and MB C-class at a test track by Acura's invitation. They told me honestly that even though the BMW was a little faster, they were quite impressed with how the 4G performed overall, esp. the AWD version. One guy told me he actually preferred the FWD version because it felt "lighter" and more agile through the turns (probably due to the fact that the FWD is several hundred pounds lighter than the AWD version). All the guys said that the extra 25hp didn't make the AWD version feel that much faster the FWD one.....they feel that Acura should have gone with a turbo or possibly a supercharger....maybe in the 5G?

Legend2TL

It may be a great design but early N54's have lot of BMW Forums talking about cooling problems (oil and water) that have led to overheating and design changes in the radiator and oil cooler.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

If you paid attention, you'd have noticed the 2009 TL already has that high-performance tire package (Pilot Sport S2 tires and 19" rims), and is listed as $43k in Acura website, $1000 more than the normal SH-AWD tech model. In other words, this set of tires/wheels is already being used in the production model.

Now, if you are an active reader at TOV, Shawn Church, the owner of Church Automotive, he stated that these Michelin tires are good for 0.5 - 1 second on this particular track, compared to the RE050's that the other cars use. Need proof? Send Shawn an email or give him a call.

I agree though, that in fall next year, there will be the S4 with torque-vectoring and the new S/C V6 that produces more torque than the current V8 engine. But then again, that car is much more expensive than the most expensive TL. IMO, the G37 sedan and 335i will be a bigger threat since we know that the G37 is getting extra power from the 3.7L engine while BMW might increase boost in the 335i.

I also agree that a 6AT or 7AT should be there for better performance, fuel economy, and most important of all - to look good on paper.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea, I drive a 2g TL-S myself and I know what you mean by that.

No kidding, the 3G TL has great handling, otherwise it couldn't have beaten both IS350 and G35S in Willow Springs by 2 seconds, driven by a professional driver.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

I don't understand your point? When the TL SH-AWD becomes available in a few weeks, it will be available with the PS2 as an option as well. It's not like Acura is doing this just to have a ringer. Acura had announced this several weeks back when it released the pricing. Just because BMW and the other manufacturers have chosen not to go with such an aggressive tire, you're claiming Acura is cheating?

Realistically, I think on identical tires, the E90 and the TL SH-AWD would be pretty much neck and neck on the track. The TL will actually corner better because the SH-AWD provides better stability in the corners and allows you to put the power down sooner while the E90 will absolutely dominate in the straights.

shooter

I know the guys at Acura have a fews things up in their sleeves ... otherwise they won't push this ugly ducklin out like this ... LOL ...

Very good find & interesting outcome ... I'm taking notes on all of these as I might change my mind down the road about this 4G TL, esp. when AWD is avail. for comparison ...

cp3117

Im Not saying Acura is cheating because facts are facts (although an independent test would give them more credibility). I also know that the PS2 tire pkg is also currently available but isnt it just currently for the 5sp auto as the 6sp manual isnt avail till 2010????
I dont really understand why they would compare a pre-production car not released until 2010 to current 2008 model year cars.

If the Auto version is to be released in a few weeks they should compare that version against other auto's but they didnt because they probably knew what the outcome would be......Its like a few years ago when the GLI equalled and outperformed the TSX mainly due to VW aggressive tires but at least those where current production cars.

It would be like audi releasing their pre-production A4 supercharged, torque vectoring version a few years ago against the 3G TL and then bragging about how good they are or BMW with the 335.etc...it just doesnt make a lot of sense.

Either way it looks like a good performer and i hope Acura doesnt delete that tire pkg come 2010 or anything else due to costs/poor sales etc like most manufacturers do before its officially released.

Colin

Since Audi is unlikely to provide a pre-production car for this comparision, Acura has to use something if they want to show the car, thus a 2008 is used. You'd think some readers here have never been around cars before.

Rule #1: If the new car can steal sales from something in your current line up, you keep it a secret as long as possible.

Rule #2: If it can steal sales from someone else, but not your own lineup, you announce it early to 'freeze' potential buyers

It's always like this and pretty much marketing 101. By throwing down the gauntlet now, they might even force the competition to change or modify their plans late in the game. This usually adds cost to any development program and might result in a better price ratio for the TL vs. Audi etc.

cp3117

Well my lease is due next summer and Acura sure isnt freezing me if this is their tactic. Most people on these forums can see through this and people looking at these categories of cars can generally see this.

If anything being this 4G TL is barely beating current model year cars, i pretty much know that come 2010 the competition will have already advanced or should have advanced ahead of it come 2010....this is why i dont really see why Honda would do this but i do assume its because they want to obviously up the image name which is a smart thing to do.

Its like this new NSX that they have been talking about for the past 5-10 years but keep cancelling it then starting up again.....im sure its not freezing or slowing the R8, GT-R sales etc.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

May be it doesn't "freeze" you or some others, but I already know people who is now interested in the TL SH-AWD 6MT. Just go over to TOV and you will see what I mean. One of them is Shawn Church by the way, the owner of Church Automotive. Bottom line is, no, this tactic is not, and will not capture everyone, but it does work on some people, and that's the goal.

By "barely beating" I would assume you are referring to the lap times. In the racing world, a 2 seconds difference per lap in a short track is huge, so "barely" isn't the right word here.

The NSX has never been designed to take sales away from other sports/super cars. It's more about showing off to the world what Honda is capable of. For instance, the original NSX was produced because Honda was having huge success in Formula 1 (6 consecutive championships I believe). But in the consumer market, all they had were the bread and butter Accord and Civic. There's obviously a missing link between these family cars and F1, so the NSX was born. So, really, it's more about reputation, improving the brand image, rather than stealing sales. Hell, Honda was losing money on each NSX they made!

Legend2TL

The 4G was lapping 2 seconds faster on a 1.6 mile track, that's not "barely beating" that's pretty far ahead if you've ever been to a track. It will be interesting to see what the competition has for 2010 but to improve by two seconds a lap would be a leap.

However I agree with others in this thread that this was mearly a teaser intro to attract some interest in the 2010 6MT AWD. And remember the cars were preped by Honda so it didn't give the press drivers a chance to adjust simple things like tire pressure. One thing that alot of sport motorcycle comparison tests do is to put the same tires on all the bike to remove tires from the equation.