2/2009 Consumer Reports: Hyundai Genesis Tops Acura TL and Other Large Upscale Sedans
02-02-2009, 01:01 PM
#81
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Ok, thanks for the clarification. I was thinking in terms of how Audi uses its new Modular Longitudinal Platform (MLP) to underpin the new '09 Audi A4/S4 and also the A5/S5 (and later, the '10 A6 and the forthcoming A8) with the chassis stretched or shortened as needed. As a side note, interestingly Volkswagen AG uses the same, albeit modified, chassis that underpins the VW Phaeton for the Bentley Contintental GT and Flying Spur. How's that for "cost-savings"? 
The thing that gets me is that, if Honda is really intent on killing off the new RWD platform and, presumably the 2011 RL along with it, what are they going to do with all of the work in process and all of the development costs? Just throw it away?
From these spy shots, taken/reported last June, Honda seemed well on its way along the development cycle. It was reported, around the same time last summer, when gas was nearing $5/gal., that Toyota, despite the high gas prices and plummeting SUV sales, would continue on with its planned launch of the '10 4Runner and the Lexus GX counterpart because both vehicles were too far along in the development process.
2011 RWD Platform Mule for Acura RL using '09 TSX Body, reported on 6/11/08
Personally, I think that Honda took on way too much than it could chew when it went ahead with the FCX Clarity, which reportedly costs $1 Million to build each vehicle since each unit is hand-built. (This is why you can only lease the vehicle and not buy it outright.) And, of course, this was fine as long as auto sales of its bread-and-butter Civic and Accord models continued to sell as they did. Of course, now that sales have collapsed drastically, with no bottoming out in sight, Honda's financial stability is now in trouble. And, of course, we as Acura owners will "pay" for this in an adversely affected or killed-off product line (i.e., no coupes, no '11 RL and no '10 NSX, etc.).
Hydrogen fuel cells are way too nascent a technology and Honda should have not gone at it alone. They should've gotten some sort of consortium with other automakers and with government and private enterprise to work on shared development costs and infrastructure, the way that GM, Chrysler, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have worked in conjunction with the hybrid technology.
Instead of putting all of its eggs in the hydrogen fuel cell basket, Honda should've fast-tracked its clean diesel engines from Europe to North America and partner up with government and other private enterprise to focus on biodiesels instead of petrodiesels. Americans aren't embracing diesel cars because diesel fuel costs on avg $1/gal higher than gas. So if they focus on biofuels, like biodiesel made from used cooking oil, you circumvent the artificial markup imposed on petrodiesel by Big Oil. Honda uses existing off-the-shelf diesel technology and consumers embrace a fuel alternative sourced from the local McDonald's. And no huge infrastructure and R&D costs.
Also, Colin, since you work at the Acura dealership, have any new SH-AWD TLs been sent? It's too bad the manuals won't be in till Fall, which means that HI won't get them for another year. :thumbsdow
The thing that gets me is that, if Honda is really intent on killing off the new RWD platform and, presumably the 2011 RL along with it, what are they going to do with all of the work in process and all of the development costs? Just throw it away?
From these spy shots, taken/reported last June, Honda seemed well on its way along the development cycle. It was reported, around the same time last summer, when gas was nearing $5/gal., that Toyota, despite the high gas prices and plummeting SUV sales, would continue on with its planned launch of the '10 4Runner and the Lexus GX counterpart because both vehicles were too far along in the development process.
2011 RWD Platform Mule for Acura RL using '09 TSX Body, reported on 6/11/08
Personally, I think that Honda took on way too much than it could chew when it went ahead with the FCX Clarity, which reportedly costs $1 Million to build each vehicle since each unit is hand-built. (This is why you can only lease the vehicle and not buy it outright.) And, of course, this was fine as long as auto sales of its bread-and-butter Civic and Accord models continued to sell as they did. Of course, now that sales have collapsed drastically, with no bottoming out in sight, Honda's financial stability is now in trouble. And, of course, we as Acura owners will "pay" for this in an adversely affected or killed-off product line (i.e., no coupes, no '11 RL and no '10 NSX, etc.).
Hydrogen fuel cells are way too nascent a technology and Honda should have not gone at it alone. They should've gotten some sort of consortium with other automakers and with government and private enterprise to work on shared development costs and infrastructure, the way that GM, Chrysler, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have worked in conjunction with the hybrid technology.
Instead of putting all of its eggs in the hydrogen fuel cell basket, Honda should've fast-tracked its clean diesel engines from Europe to North America and partner up with government and other private enterprise to focus on biodiesels instead of petrodiesels. Americans aren't embracing diesel cars because diesel fuel costs on avg $1/gal higher than gas. So if they focus on biofuels, like biodiesel made from used cooking oil, you circumvent the artificial markup imposed on petrodiesel by Big Oil. Honda uses existing off-the-shelf diesel technology and consumers embrace a fuel alternative sourced from the local McDonald's. And no huge infrastructure and R&D costs.
Also, Colin, since you work at the Acura dealership, have any new SH-AWD TLs been sent? It's too bad the manuals won't be in till Fall, which means that HI won't get them for another year. :thumbsdow
The Japanese are very good about being less emotional about sunk costs. If they are evaluating cutting a model they will take a look at the effect it has on all future cash flows. If Acura gets rid of Project X, do people by their other cars? Or do they go to a competitor? If we keep Project X, will its future costs create profits at a rate higher than other possible uses for the money?
02-02-2009, 09:47 PM
#83
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02-02-2009, 10:12 PM
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Last edited by S2000 Driver; 02-02-2009 at 10:14 PM.
02-03-2009, 12:28 AM
#85
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I know this sounds snobby. But an earlier post made a good point. When you buy a luxury brand you expect certain amenities, especially when you get the car serviced. BMW dealers do not share service with Pontiacs. Hyundai should have created a luxury brand. My Honda dealer also sells KIA and the service area is the same. There is a different "type, class, or clientele" that buy these cheaper cars. Subsequently the level of service in these departments do not match the price you pay for the more expensive car brand. I bought from this Honda dealer ship before KIA came, so I saw the negative impact of KIA in the service area. Lexus, Audi, MB, Acura, Infiniti, BMW make sure that service departments are segmented if not stand-alone. Genesis may be a contender, but it's a Hyundai, and that says "cheap" to me. If I spend $35-$40K on a Hyundai I expect more prestige than $15K Sonata owner in how I am treated. If I see a Genesis, I will think there is someone who could not afford a Lexus, BMW, Acura, etc. Not necessarily a "smart consumer," and they well may be. Genesis will be the VW Phaeton.
02-03-2009, 01:18 AM
#86
Moderator Alumnus
Another copy cat from Hyundai.
Their vehicles are probably more well-built than ever, however, this car is so much like mix-blood one. Once Hyundai knows how to design their own vehicles, they will become the upscale car manufacturer.
Anyway, if we put $ into the consideration, yes, Hyundai is the great choice.
Their vehicles are probably more well-built than ever, however, this car is so much like mix-blood one. Once Hyundai knows how to design their own vehicles, they will become the upscale car manufacturer.
Anyway, if we put $ into the consideration, yes, Hyundai is the great choice.
02-03-2009, 02:20 AM
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The best bang for the buck statement is one of the most common rationales on this site for buying an Acura rather then a BMW or a MB.
As for the service department my experience with Ford, Acura, BMW & Jaguar are all about the same. I drop it off at night & put the key in the envelope then into the slot. I go back the next night & open the car with my other key & drive it home.
I would have a real hard time justifying to myself spending X thousands of dollars more for a car just to get a better cup of coffee once or twice a year.
My TL has had more maintenance requirements then all the cars/trucks that I am currently driving put together. Even at that (3rd Gear TSB, Wiper motor recall, power steering hose recall, Tail light replacement ) since September 06 when I bought the car till today I have only been to the shop 3 times.
It is also interesting that most of the comments here are just about the same ones made by BMW & MB owners about the Lexus when it first came out.
Remember "Lexus is just a cheap Japanese ripoff of the MB body style"?
02-03-2009, 08:03 AM
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Personally, I think the whole "tier I" snob factor is absurd and likely perpetuated by people with severe insecurities. Although people may not take Hyundai seriously now, the quality of its cars has increased dramatically in the past 10 years, so it may be a true contender in the next few years. Hyundai may eventually become known for possessing many of the same qualities of Acura - good value, excellent reliability and sportiness.
02-03-2009, 08:22 AM
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The funny thing is that many BMW, Lexus and MB owners can't afford a real tier I luxury car either, hence the large number of leases.
Personally, I think the whole "tier I" snob factor is absurd and likely perpetuated by people with severe insecurities. Although people may not take Hyundai seriously now, the quality of its cars has increased dramatically in the past 10 years, so it may be a true contender in the next few years. Hyundai may eventually become known for possessing many of the same qualities of Acura - good value, excellent reliability and sportiness.
Personally, I think the whole "tier I" snob factor is absurd and likely perpetuated by people with severe insecurities. Although people may not take Hyundai seriously now, the quality of its cars has increased dramatically in the past 10 years, so it may be a true contender in the next few years. Hyundai may eventually become known for possessing many of the same qualities of Acura - good value, excellent reliability and sportiness.
Samsung used to be considered cheap quality -- no more.
Now Samsung is top rated and taking significant market share away from Sony in LCD HDTVs.
Last edited by S2000 Driver; 02-03-2009 at 08:26 AM.
02-03-2009, 08:58 AM
#90
Black
After recently doing a business analysis of the Phaeton, I can tell you that you are completely wrong.
The Phaeton was a high-priced car in the wrong showroom. While people may have WANTED the Phaeton, few VW buyers could afford a $65k-120k car.
Hyundai, on the other hand, did it correctly. They didn't jump from the $10k Excel to a $40k luxury car. They slowly built their portfolio, while at the same time increasing quality, brand recognition, and loyalty. Can a Sonata (or Azera) owner afford a Genesis? Probably.
Could a Golf or Passat owner afford a Phaeton W12 (when it was removed from the market in 2006)? No.
And was the Phaeton advertised as well or as broadly as the Genesis? No.
The Phaeton was a high-priced car in the wrong showroom. While people may have WANTED the Phaeton, few VW buyers could afford a $65k-120k car.
Hyundai, on the other hand, did it correctly. They didn't jump from the $10k Excel to a $40k luxury car. They slowly built their portfolio, while at the same time increasing quality, brand recognition, and loyalty. Can a Sonata (or Azera) owner afford a Genesis? Probably.
Could a Golf or Passat owner afford a Phaeton W12 (when it was removed from the market in 2006)? No.
And was the Phaeton advertised as well or as broadly as the Genesis? No.
02-03-2009, 09:03 AM
#91
AZ Community Team
After recently doing a business analysis of the Phaeton, I can tell you that you are completely wrong.
The Phaeton was a high-priced car in the wrong showroom. While people may have WANTED the Phaeton, few VW buyers could afford a $65k-120k car.
Hyundai, on the other hand, did it correctly. They didn't jump from the $10k Excel to a $40k luxury car. They slowly built their portfolio, while at the same time increasing quality, brand recognition, and loyalty. Can a Sonata (or Azera) owner afford a Genesis? Probably.
Could a Golf or Passat owner afford a Phaeton W12 (when it was removed from the market in 2006)? No.
And was the Phaeton advertised as well or as broadly as the Genesis? No.
The Phaeton was a high-priced car in the wrong showroom. While people may have WANTED the Phaeton, few VW buyers could afford a $65k-120k car.
Hyundai, on the other hand, did it correctly. They didn't jump from the $10k Excel to a $40k luxury car. They slowly built their portfolio, while at the same time increasing quality, brand recognition, and loyalty. Can a Sonata (or Azera) owner afford a Genesis? Probably.
Could a Golf or Passat owner afford a Phaeton W12 (when it was removed from the market in 2006)? No.
And was the Phaeton advertised as well or as broadly as the Genesis? No.
, well written I was thinking the same thing. The Phaeton is very different from the Genesis in terms of price ration of next cheaper model. In the Phaeton it was ~2X the next cheaper VW at the time (Tourag). Where as the Genesis is ~1.3X the next cheaper model.
02-03-2009, 09:09 AM
#92
Black
People do in fact pay for "brand equity." Audi lost a tremendous amount of reputation points when they went through the Audi 5000 brake debacle in the 1980s. It took them years to build that back (the real recovery probably took hold with the 1996 Audi A4).
So if the Genesis was priced in the $45-50k range (see: Acura RL), they would be in a much more crowded space - one which depends more on perception than reality...
02-03-2009, 10:41 AM
#93
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If I go to Acura for service, I get a service loaner at any dealer.
If I go to Lexus for service, I get a service loaner at any dealer.
If I go to Hyundai for service, I might get a service loaner if I bought the car for them.
If I go to Lexus for service, I get a service loaner at any dealer.
If I go to Hyundai for service, I might get a service loaner if I bought the car for them.
02-03-2009, 11:45 AM
#94
Suzuka Master
That was a big reason I passed on the Genesis, the loaner applies only to the purchasing dealer, so if I geta good deal across town and want service close to me, no loaner. Hyundai needs to fix some of the issues witht he car and dealerships, which I am sure they will as they build their new image.
02-03-2009, 11:58 AM
#95
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...0/b3873062.htm
And one key to Samsung's success has a surprising address: 1 Bolshoi Gnezdnikovsky Lane, Suite 300, in Moscow.
And one key to Samsung's success has a surprising address: 1 Bolshoi Gnezdnikovsky Lane, Suite 300, in Moscow.
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