JeffNY

This thread got closed in the '09 TL forum. Anyone want to continue it here they can.

We've all probably seen the pics of the production Volt. Not a bad looking car from Chevy!

Now Chrysler has joined the plug-in hybrid and electric car game in a big way, show THREE vehicles today.
http://www.chryslerllc.com/en/innovation/envi/overview/

That Dodge EV (pure electric) vehicle looks totally hot!! If a bit of a rip off of the Tesla. I imagine this will replace the Viper soon.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/26850309

Gotta love it!! More of those "electric cars" that can never work LOL!!!

Honda and Acura.......where are you????????

Jeff

massr1

Hybrids are a half stuck on band-aid to our transportation issues.

Never Summer

Hybrids are overrated. The Prius is the biggest pile of shit I have ever seen, and yet their owners act like they are a gift from God sent to correct the worlds problems.

The Dougler

iTrader: (1)

Honda has already announced that they will not waste their collective time with plug in cars until they feel the battery technology can meet the demands of the cars. Until then they will not venture down that road and focus on things that are actually long term solutions like the FCX clarity.

Moog-Type-S

@ this thread

subinf

You clearly haven't been around cars for that long.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Topic belongs in TL forum... so moving there. If it gets closed again... I think it's time to let it go...

Chung S

Actually, I would like to see some diesel engine from Honda/Acura. Checkout the V6 TDI Diesel that's available for the Audi A4: 240hp, 369lb-ft torque, 0-60mph at 6.1 sec. and it get's 44mpg combined fuel millage.

Now that is impressive. Of course, being us americans, we probably wont see that engine here any time soon...

JeffNY

juniorbean, I was told if this thread was to continue it HAD to continue in CarTalk. Why did you move it to the 4th Gen section????

Honda/Acura better step up their game...and not with expensive "fuel cells" and "hydrogen" or diesels. So far GM, Toyota, Nissan, Tesla and now Chrysler (and a number of startups) have shown electrics are part of the automotive future.

And "they will not waste their collective time with plug in cars"?? hahhaha No, they are wasting their time fuel cell cars that will cost a fortune

JeffNY

juniorbean "If it gets closed again... I think it's time to let it go..."????

Why is a discussion about Acura offering a hybrid of some sort so upsetting to people? Are you guys getting pressure from Honda Corp. to squash any discussion along these lines? Geeez...in CarTalk ANYTHING goes. EXCEPT talking about something many Acura customers would actually like to buy???? What's going on here? Why the big cover up???

Whatever.....I am willing to bet in 6 or 8 years there WILL be lots of Honda and Acura models that are hybrid/electric of some sort. I really can't see Acura still selling cars that only get 19MPG or 23MPG when the rest of the automotive industry is selling cars that get 50MPG to 100MPG+.....or use no gas at all. But hey, if you are so afraid of talk of hybrid TL then close this thread to.

JeffNY

Dougler,

>>lithium-ion batteries hold less than half the energy by weight of gasoline.<<

Yea, and the internal combustion engine can only convert 20% of that energy (on a good day) to kinetic energy to to move your car!! LOL

>>"It's impossible to imagine a date at which such a breakthrough could occur,'' <<

Current battery technology is good enough today for GM, Toyota, Nissan and Chrysler. But Google "EEStor" and "10x nanowire lithium ion" for a peek at what is already in the works for 2+ years out.

Edward'TLS

The Acura division is for performance, especially that the "Tier-1" cars, with hefty dose of horsepowers, will be arriving to revive the brand in 2010. If Acura vehicles are to use hybrid technology, it will be intended for boosting horsepower, not for fuel economy just like all the Lexus hybrids.

The Honda division is the only appropriate place for hybrid vehicles aiming for maximum fuel economy, thus the upcoming Prius-lookalike Honda Insight.

JeffNY

The (electric) Tesla and Dodge EV can toast ANY Acura And we are learning all that torque of electric motors leads to excellent ICE-beating "performance" (there are some good videos on YouTube). We have probably see the last gas-burning version of Corvette too. If Acura thinks horsepower is the only thing that sells Acuras their sales (already down) will continue to decline. But, hopefully, the same guys who designed the body on the '09 TL are NOT the guys in charge of powertrains and Acura has secret "projects" in the works for future production "hybrid" vehicles right now....

Edward'TLS

^^^^^ Horsepower is not the only thing that sells Acura's, but it plays a major part in making Acura vehicles competitive and attractive to buyers.

The Tesla and Dodge EV can toast most BMW and Audi too. But are BMW and Audi afraid ? NO. Not at all. BMW and Audi are now moving to turbocharging and supercharging technology to continue their quest for ultimate horsepowers for their PREMIUM performance sedans. So much for hybrids.

JeffNY

Well, I [and a lot of others] am not buying a BMW or Audi either (unless someday they offer a quality, price competitive luxury sedan that does not drink gasoline).

All I am saying is I think there is a big market for a luxury car that uses little gas or no gas at all. A lot of Prius owners have the money to buy a BMW or Mercedes, but prefer to buy a eco-friendly fuel efficient vehicle - for a whole bunch of reasons (like the list of political, economic & environmental reasons a lot of us think it's time we move off oil). I think a TL that has a plug-in hybrid powertrain with range-extender would sell great. I'd buy one, once Acura fixes that '09 body style. I still have great respect for Honda quality, and their ability to sell a feature rich quality car at a competitive price.

I actually think Acura should (for now) offer a TL with a conventional ICE (internal combustion engine) and offer a version with a "hybrid" powertrain (similar to the Volt and vehicles Chrysler are showing). And let the market decide. Maybe to some people going to 0-60 in 6 seconds in their car is important. That's great. It's not so important for me. If I want to do that I'll go for a ride on one of my motorcycles. In my car I want to be able to drive lots of miles without spending tons of money on fuel (especially when that money goes over seas to people who hate us and we are at war with). But I actually think in short order you will see "hybrids" out performing any ICE car. We are already seeing the potential for that.

Honda claims to be the "green" car company. Lets see them match what the other car companies are doing. But so far they just make statements about what they are NOT doing.

The internal combustion engine, as we know it, days are numbered. It is about to be replaced just as the steam engine was. By 2010 when these new high horsepower Acuras you say will arrive you will be seeing "hybrids" and electrics that will out perform them and use a whole lot less less gas, if any at all. Acura better be prepared.

Edward'TLS

^^^^^ You seems to put Honda in the center stage by not starting to offer hybrids to all model lines. If you look at the big picture,

- Honda will soon be releasing the next generation of gas-electric hybrid, the Insight.
- Honda has already leased zero-emission hydrogen fuel cell FCX Clarity to some US customers started this summer.
- Honda is still the leader in CAFE number for fleet fuel mileage.
- Both GM and Honda got burned once from having offered electric cars with immature battery technology some years ago.
- All so-called future electric cars carry a hefty premium over conventional cars. There won't be any $20K electric cars that can outperform high power conventional cars and also have remotely similar travel range, for years to come.

Many other auto makers don't even have anything remotely similar as Honda on their product release plans. So why should Honda worry ? In fact, Honda should be one of the last ones to feel threatened by electric cars before everyone else.

PMD TSX

Yeah, but these New Plugin Hybrids only use about 8 gallons of gas over a 400 mile period without recharging. They could use even less if you used it everyday for short trips and always came home and plugged it in. Not bad if you ask me.

JeffNY

You can also add the Civic GX NGV to your list. I actually think natuaral gas is not a bad way to go in the short term. The US is the Saudia Arabia of natural gas. We have LOTS of it. I have natural in my house and could easily add one of those "Phil" home refueling stations to my garage. $2.40/gallon is a step in the right direction. If only there were more on-highway NG filling stations. Maybe in time they will appear.

There are number of reasons the original Insight and GM EV1 did not fair well. The cost of gas then, the batteries they used, their size....I think what most of us want is a "real" car like what we are used to driving that can use current and future battery technology to deliver that experience. And I think you will be surprized how fast the prices come down as the batteries get into mass production. The drive train is fairly simple in an EV. No big engine, exhaust system or transmission that need lots of maintenence. Just a watermellon size motor, battery and controller box (and small engine to drive a generator in REV EV's).

The new Insight (just announced a few weeks ago and to appear at the Paris Auto Show Oct 2nd) and CR-Z will be interesting to watch. It should indictate the direction Honda is going in the short term.

Oh and add Mercedes to the list of companies inching away from internal combustion engine as we know it :
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/02...hium-ion-hybr/

Continental Begins World’s First Mass Production of Lithium-ion Automotive Battery Packs Today (for Mercedes)
http://gm-volt.com/2008/09/24/contin...y-packs-today/

Mecedes (as part of DaimlerChrysler) also worked with GM and BMW on the development of two-mode hybrid technology...that will show up in ML450 also.

It should be noted the new TL uses "Electric variable power-assisted rack-and-pinion steering (EPS)". That makes One less item that needs to rely on an internal combustion engine to operate. Makes me just a tad bit optomistic Acura is already planning for the day it can easily drop out that ICE and replace it with something else

But to answer your question, should Honda worry? I don't know if they should worry, but they should keep their eye on the ball. The automotive world is going through a huge revolution as we speak. The race is on to deliver the "electric car" to the masses.

CL6

10 grand for batteries alone plus the price of the car!

http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topic...8&parent_id=28

But at roughly $10,000 each, the light, long-lasting lithium-ion batteries key to powering electric cars will make those vehicles prohibitively expensive until production levels are ramped up to the hundreds of thousands.
“It will be more expensive than people expect,” Mike Jackson, chief executive of AutoNation, the largest public auto dealership group, said of the electric cars that will hit the market in the next five years.

“It will be more expensive to make than the manufacturers can really afford, meaning initially they’re going to have to limit the volumes.”

JeffNY

I agree CL6, I think most of us were hoping battery costs would be lower initially. And GM has had to up the initial price of Volt from ""comfortablly below $30,000" to something higher - they say to cover any potential costs of replacing the battery if they end up not lasting 10 years. I guess they need to do that until they get a few years of actual use in the cars and "real world" use matches what they see in the lab testing of the batteries. But there are now several companies building lithium ion batteries and hopfully the costs will drop fast.

But there is still "EEStor" out there....the big mystery the whole industy is watching. They are claiming, once the production line they built gets operational, they can build their "ultra capacitors" for $40/kWh. That means the 26kWh battery (for 150 to 200 mile pure electric range) in the Dodge EV would only cost $1040. Pretty amazing. A 52kWh battery would cost $2100, and give a larger car (like a TL) 300+ mile range on electric only. Nice.

JeffNY

Something else to consider too, in the whole powertrain of an EV you are taking a lot of cost OUT of the car. You are replacing that big, complex internal combustion engine and transmission and exhaust system and fuel tank system (with its' thousands of parts and development costs) with a relatively simple watermellon size electric motor and battery pack. I would love to see the "total powertrain cost" of an ICE vs. electric drive system. I think it would shock some of us.

Jake 6MT

iTrader: (1)

TSX with D-TEC is coming in 09 and from what I hear we might get a diesel for the cr-v and some other honda vehicles. So yes. honda has a diesel engine, its just not over here yet - look at the UK Honda site

LIPPSTUH

iTrader: (2)

hybrids will not be a long term solution so why waste time, money?

next.

JeffNY

Plug-In hybrids are not a long term solution? Says who? Even when they do burn gas they get about 50MPG. And in a few years their batteries will be able to be upgraded to extend their pure electric range from 40 miles to maybe 10 times that. They will also save you several thousand dollars a year on gas and require a whole lot less maintenance (from oil changes to EGR valves). Not sure I understand your question.

CL6

You can't discuss with a Kool Aid drinker. Same people who think wind power is a good solution. While I admire the spirit of people who want to try new things they ignore the fundamental economics of the situation under the pretense of "it'll be better for everybody." We'll all be driving gas/diesel cars for some time and I plan on enjoying it.

JeffNY

CL6, you can discuss anything you want. And I was agreeing with you I'd like to see the battery prices lower initially to. No need to start name calling. But I might remind you it was you a couple months ago who was saying it "would also lift the Prius's price above $50,000" to get the car to electric-only range to 37 miles. Well, that appears not to be true now as Toyota is building lithium ion battery plants and we see the Volt can do 40+ miles and won't cost $50,000. And did you bother to read anything on EEStor? I was trying to have a discussion with you. But if we have "discussion" that does not mean we have to agree on everything. And that's fine too.

And I understand the economics very well (as someone who owned a trucking company with 13 trucks) all to well. The US now imports 70% of our oil (up from 24% in 1970, and still increasing) and we are sending $700,000,000,000 (thats $700 BILLION) out of our country a year for oil. If that sounds good to you then great. Do nothing and stop reading threads about alternatives that upset you. But there are some great folks at GM, Toyota, Nissan, Chrysler, Mercedes and BMW who disagree with you apparently.

If you don't want a plug in hybrid or electric that's fine with me. You're the guy buying the gas. But I'd still be happy to share my Kool Aid with you buddy if you want some

PMD TSX

50mpg? Doesn't the Prius get close to that? Try close to 100mpg.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/09/26/2...ed-at-100-mpg/

Plus these PHEVs will initially receive huge tax credits, some as high as $7,500.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/09/24/s...v-tax-credits/

JeffNY

Yup. You're right PMD. I was being "generous". But yes your right, under these new rating systems they can claim 100MPG. I think even the 2010 or 2011 TL will find it hard to get close to that.

CL6

The thing with cost is you're never going to know what the true cost is. The entire Prius battery cost was paid for by the Japanese government who used billions of taxpayer money. GM is sinking tons of money into this Volt and it will be above 40k (the price having already been raised) and it's not even for sale yet. I'm confident we'll be looking around 50k for it. When you get taxpayers to foot the bill for hybrids or electric only cars it's not a good investment. I don't want to pay for somebody else's hybrid. The batteries alone are at least $10,000.00 plus the price of the car plus some profit. It might take decades for an automaker to recoup their investment or never if they car flops. That's lousy economics and a poor use of resources.

Link from last time regarding Prius:

If you want some facts try reading this article:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...y_again_column

But, for example, to have a Prius run as an electric-only car:

"Range can be longer: Toyota says adding 11 battery packs, for a total of 12, would up electric-only range to 37 miles. It would also lift the Prius's price above $50,000."

Having a battery in my cell phone produces perhaps 4 hours of talk time. That's quite a stretch to go from that to driving 250 miles in a car powered by batteries. I never said batteries wouldn't "work" I said they wouldn't "work" to power a car by themselves.

Finally your arugment falls on its face because there aren't any mass produced electric cars so you can't say how much they will cost while all I'm saying is they will be much higher than hybrids now because of the battery issue which isn't going to change.

Let the marketplace decide... having the government pick a technology and spending my money on it is stupid.

The thing is you drank the Kool Aid and will never look at the economics of the entire thing. If you really did that you'd realize what a waste of money that is... If the marketplace demanded such fuel efficient cars they'd be here in the form of gas which is a known quantity. As I said Honda made the HF in the 80s and got 40+ mpg out of it with no new technology.

JeffNY

>>The thing with cost is you're never going to know what the true cost is. The entire Prius battery cost was paid for by the Japanese government<<

Even if that is true that is a "problem" for the >Japanese< taxpayer. Not you or I. So why do you care. [...but remember, it is Toyota and Japan who will reap the rewards of that...]

And you are back to your April 2007 Car and Driver article again? That was a year and a half ago. Toyota (and Nissan and a bunch of others) have announced they are building plants to build advanced lithium ion batteries since that was written. In a very short time the Prius will have lithium ion batteries and I doubt Toyota will change the price of the Prius much. They know what people will pay for that car.

>>GM is sinking tons of money into this Volt and it will be above 40k<<

But that is GM''s (and their stockholders) money. So again, why do you care? It's not your money.

>>I'm confident we'll be looking around 50k for it. <<

So you know more about the Volt than Bob Lutz and Rick Waggoner? Well then you are one smart cookie I guess. And you totally discount the entry of EEStor with its' battery storage at $40/kWh. If that happens the "electric motor+battery" will cost a lot less than "gas engine+transmission+exhaust system+fuel tank system". It will not be affordable or economical to build cars that use internal combustion engines anymore.

And did you watch the CNBC video above http://www.cnbc.com/id/26850309
Chrysler CEO Bob Nardelli and his team make it very clear they know where the "price points" they have to hit for their electric cars are. They realize a $50,000 mini van is not the where the price needs to be for the mini van market.

>>When you get taxpayers to foot the bill for hybrids or electric only cars it's not a good investment.<<

Give me an example of where your tax is going to support the development of hybrid cars? You can't. I think you are worrying about things you don't need to worry about. By the way, I bet you pay a lot taxes on the gasoline you put in your car. Electric car owners don't pay any taxes on gasoline hehehe


>>Let the marketplace decide... having the government pick a technology and spending my money on it is stupid.<<

I TOTALLY agree with you on that. They have a horrible track record. But when we look at the "big picture" lets look at the TRUE cost of oil. We are now spending (depending who crunches the numbers) $8 BILLION a MONTH on our war in Iraq (on top of what we pay for oil in the middle east). And lets be honest, the only reason we have been in the middle east the way we have been the past 40+ years is because of OIL. That is Ok with you? And now we have Iran using money they get from oil to build nukes. Great. What's that going to cost us the "taxpayer" to defend against? But $8 Billion a month for the war in Iraq of taxpayer money does not bother you? Nor does the $700 billion a year the US has to spend of foreign oil? THAT is what is what I worry about. Not to mention the shedding of American blood.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/w...raqwarcost.htm

I think it you who is not looking at the economics of the big picture. And apparently you think the heads of GM, Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes and Chrysler don't understand "economics" either? By the way, as a follower of Milton Friedman and Ludwig Von Mises I am as "free market" as it gets. LOL


>>As I said Honda made the HF in the 80s and got 40+ mpg out of it with no new technology.<<

And the new Chevy Cruise will get over 40MPG too. But there is only so much MPG you can squeeze out of the internal combustion engine, and it's more and more expensive to do at this point in the history of the internal combustion engine. The auto makers realize that. Especially when we all know the internal combustion is only AT BEST 20% efficient to start with and has no way to recover energy on braking. I'd rather get 100MPG or burn no gas at all. We'll see what Honda shows us at the Paris Auto Show shortly...

Oh don't forget the future Cafe MPG requirements Congress has imposed for 2020 and beyond....if you want to stick to just the internal combustion engine that might have us all driving Pinto size cars in just a few years....

topcat21

I just hope that my TL will be able to burn "grassoline" when it becomes readily available ...

hypno999

OK, funny, seems like some people don't realize that plugable cars are not as great as they seem to. Most of the electricity in US is produced by burning coal... if you didn't think that was bad for environment - think again! Oh, yeah, and your electric bill won't get any smaller... unless I can find a place to plug in at my workplace garage

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

lol.. when i visit my friends house, i'm gonna be like '"Hey man, can I plug my car in for a few"

or run an extension cord to the neighbors outside outlet