TL-Rocks!

This is my first post, so here goes...

I've read as many of the threads about wheel spacers as I could find on the forum, but so far no one has asked if it's even a good idea. I'm trying to get some 18x8's on my 04 6mt, but they interfere with the Brembo brakes in the front. (no issues with the rear.) As you know, the options for wheels for 04 6mt are limited due to the (larger) brembos that come stock on them. I've combed thru thousands of wheel options and only found 1 I liked, so I hope to not have to do that again to find the runner up wheel.

When I asked a local mechanic about adding wheel spacers, he told me it would be a bad idea, saying that it would create vibrations, and is "bad for the tires", and that their tread life would get "eaten up."

Can anyone on here help with advice, second opinions, resources, etc. on the following due to the spacers:

1) performance of the vehicle
2) ride/comfort of of the vehicle
3) tread life of the tires

And if there is a "best type" of spacers, please tell me what they are and where to get them. Also, what else do I need to consider to make the mod go smoothly?

TL-Rocks!

KJSmitty

You sure you can't find suitable wheels that have the proper clearance/spacing? Probably seems like a dumb question for I am sure you have been looking - but I would agree that it's not the optimum solution. My biggest concern would be the vibration factor, possible safety issues, and the fact that the tire will stick out from the wheel well equal to the thickness of the spacer. Then again, depending on the thickness of the spacer, all could be minimal.
Is your tire/wheel budget the possible cause of a limited wheel choice? I haven't been in the market yet but my guess is if you mentioned your $ limit per wheel guys/girls here could point you in the direction of wheels/brands designed for larger calipers etc. I wouldn't think they would be that uncommon in the 18/8 or 18/8.5 sizes.

Probably didn't help you much but the best advice I can give is to avoid the spacers if you can.

Good luck

frenchnew

You also loose thread engagments on the wheel nuts with the use of spacers and there is not a whole lot of threads to spare on the TL as it is with the OEM wheels without spacers.

There is always the possibility of replacing the studs with longuer ones but this is not an easy job, specially for front hubs.

THere is also the negative side of spacers which will change the geometry of the suspension as the wheels will be away from their orininal center position (track width wise).

cM3go

Wheels spacers are a bad idea, I would find wheels that fit without the need of spacers.

ITL

I second this...

P$$$

Agreed.... I had spacers on the first set of rims I had ordered from discount and I had a horrible vibration around 70mph that wouldnt go away. Discount fubar'd and ordered rims that wouldnt fit my car. We tried to make them work, but in the end, the took them back and I ordered something that SHOULD fit my car.

I feel this guys pain as indeed, finding rims to fit over the brembo's is no easy matter. Many of wheel shops have no clue if wheels will or will not fit. If you have an auto, then you have no idea what its like unless you got the brake upgrade.

My advice... Find something that will fit. Avoid the spacers.

Not sure what your preference in wheel is, but I went with the 5zigen ProRacer GN+.

chill_dog

Lots of good advice here...as everyone said, spacers are bad.

However, I do understand the wheel search...took me months to find some I liked and I ended up spending twice as much as I had originally intended because there was truly that little out there that I liked. And as you know, with 6MT, you can probably only look at about 1/4 of what I could look at.

I'm guessing you're not looking to drop 4k+ on wheels/tires, otherwise you'd have a set of custom 3-piece wheels by now (plenty of good looking options that can be made to fit MT). Take a look at the RonJon Devotion 1pF...be a while before they're out, but they'll fit, can be custom painted, and will be great quality at a reasonable price.

TL-Rocks!

Thanks for your input all.

My budget is under $2k for both wheels and tires. I'm looking to pair Pirelli PZero Nero's 245/40/18 with what ever wheels I find. The ones I was looking to install was around $200 each.

Just to be clear, I'm only looking to add anywhere between 5-15 mm on each side just enough to clear the Brembos.

It's hard for me to imagine that a small increase in track width would make a significant difference in the suspension behavior (10-30mm total which is only about 1.2 inches max). Plus having the wheels a little more outward to the fender will make it look a little more custom and agressive. Getting a wheel with 40mm offset instead of the stock 45mm offset essentially does the same thing (widening the track of the tires by 5mm per side.)

....but I digress...function first!

TL-Rocks!

By the way, the wheels I wanted were the DeCorsa Fusion Hyperdark wheels.

http://www.wheelmax.com/wheelcolors....r=Hyper%20Dark

They are not agressive looking by any means, cuz I'm more of a mellow guy. But I like that they look pretty cool and unique, being of a seven spoke design.

If you guys come across any wheels that look similar to this, please send me a link.

Thanks!

rondog

iTrader: (1)

Spacers add a new element to the fitment issue, there are usually vibration issues and a weaker suspension associated with added more metal between the wheel and hub, this actuually decreases the amount of threads that the lug nut uses to mhold your 2 ton vehcile to the wheels. For under 2k, you can afford one piece cast wheels, but def not 3 piece.

P$$$

Ya, wheelmax has alot of affordable wheels that I liked, but none would fit the 6MT. What I would do is once you find a rim that fits, search for the best possible price on the rim and then go to Discount tire and have them order it. They will beat anyone's price. Also, when you order from them, you dont have to worry about damage during shipment or returns; they will be responsible for that.

Good luck in your search!

TL-Rocks!

thanks P$$$,
I already did exactly that with these wheels. That's how I found out they didn't fit...wheelmax does not distinguish between 5at and 6mt versions so I wasn't sure. Emailing them with the question didn't get any responses, so I went to Discount Tires and had them order it. They got it for cheaper and didn't charge me shipping. When they discovered it wouldn't fit they refunded me completely and absorbed the cost of sending it back. They are a nice company to deal with, very hassle-free.

What do you guys think of the ronjon Inspyres in 18x8 silver finish? http://www.ronjonwheels.com/inspyre.html

They are a little more agressive looking than I'd like but it's one of the runner ups.

chill_dog

Get the Servo's to show off those Brembo's! Nothing wrong with the Inspyre's, it's just a lot of the 3G-er's have them...and the chrome Servo's look great, especially on a dark car.

Either way, you can't go wrong with anything from RonJon...it's all top-notch stuff!

ComptechType-S

I have custom made 10mm spacers on my TL. They were made specifically to fit the center bore of the cars wheel hub and the center bore of my wheels. I have no vibration at any speed and the handeling seems to be a little better. I did have to change my wheel studs and buy new lug nuts.. But its all good now.

TL-Rocks!

hey comptechtype-s,

Good to know that spacers are possible.
Were you able to buy these custom spacers somewhere or did you design them yourself and have them made?
What material were they made of?
Would they fit your stock rims if you swap them back in?
How did the spacers affect tread wear of your tires?


Thanks in advance.

ComptechType-S

I got mine from motorsport technology. They are machined from a block of billett aluminum I have only had them on the car for about 2 weeks so i havent noticed any unusual tire ware.

You will have to sent MST the center bore of our cars hub and the center bore of the wheels that you want to put on your car. They will make them specifically for you application.

My factory wheels will not fit on these spacers. The bore is not the same. All i have to do is take the spacers off and put the universal spacer on and the factory wheels will work again.

Hope this helps.

TL-Rocks!

hey comptechtype-s,

can you post a pic of your mod with the spacers to see how the car looks with "pushed out" wheels? Did you also lower the suspension?

is your tire width 235 or 245? Also what is the offset of your wheel in the pic? all these parameters affect how far the tire's outer wall is pushed out.

I measured how far my 235/45/17 tires recessed from the outside of the fender.
The numbers I got (per side) were: front) 17mm, rear) 25mm

So...if I put on a wheel with 40mm offset, put a 245 instead of a 235, that pushes the outer wall of the wheel out 10mm per side. If I then add another 10mm spacer to each side, the wheel would actually stick out beyond the fender's outer wall in the front end...is this your understanding as well?

Thanks in advance.

TLover

Wheel spacers put a lot of stress on the wheel bearings.

TL-Rocks!

Are there any automotive engineers that would be willing to put their 2 cents in? I'm a mechanical engineer by training, but by no means an automotive engineer. I just know enough to ask the questions and to probe in generally the right direction...like I said in my previous post, it's hard to understand how such a small change in track width would significantly affect the suspension behavior, or the bearings, for that matter (10mm per side for instance, like comptechtype-s').

Any technical explanation to satisfy my curiosity would be much appreciated!

Thanks!

ComptechType-S

My car is lowered, i have the Eibach pro kit installed. My new tires are 245/40's, now that they are on the car i think i should have gone with a smaller tire. I do have some rubbing (in the rear) with 5 people in the car. I'll try and get some pics up this weekend.

My wheels are a 38 offset and i have 10mm spacers. My wheels are right in line with the fender wells. I like the way it looks.

If your considering the spacers go with a narrower tire (to be on the safe side). If your car is lowered and you put people in your back seat.. another reason to go with narrower tires.

If you are looking at wheels with a 40 offset go with a 7 or 8mm spacer. I went to pep boys and bought some universal spacers and some 1mm washers to find out what i needed to clear the front calipers. Once i knew what i needed it was easy to order them and get them on the car.

Hope this info helps.

J.

ComptechType-S

How does a 8oz wheel spacer put additional stress on the wheel bearings?? I would thing a 200lb person would do more damage than a wheel spacer.

TL-Rocks!

Comptechtype-s,

That's a good way to reframe my question...doing rough comparisons with an off the shelf spacer from Pep Boys is a good idea. wish I thought of that when I had the wheels at Discount Tires...oh well...will have to think of something...

TLover

It's not the weight, it's the fact that the wheel is pushed out farther. I shouldn't have said "a lot" but "more." The wheel is pushed farther away from the bearing. Remember, the entire weight of the car transfers through the wheel bearing to the wheels.

TL-Rocks!

Ok, so to bring some hard numbers into this "more stress" on the bearings claim, I crawled under my car to look in the front wheel drive area. It looks like the bearings are inboard of the disk brakes, but within the width of the wheels. But I couldn't measure much beyond that...

I'm putting some effort into this because of all the concerns raised on this thread so far...and frankly, I'm concerned too since no one so far has put much backing into their concerns...

But ideally the bearing should be centered on the midplane of the wheel to avoid torque loading of the bearings, so I'll run with this assumption. And assuming that the 45mm offset of the stock wheels produce ideal alignment of the bearings to the center plane of the wheels...

In this case, assuming a 3000 lbs car and a 55/45 front/back weight ratio, each front wheel would see 825 lbs of its curb weight (pure radial loading) and no torque loading on the bearings. With a new wheel that has only 40 mm offset, pushing the wheel outboard, a 10mm spacer between the wheel and hub would create a 15mm cantilever from ideal alignment pushing the wheel further outboard(which is equivalent to a wheel with 30mm offset)

This cantilever would cause an additional torque load of about 27 ft-lbs on each front wheel (15mm=.59", .59"/12" = .0492 ft, torque load = .0492 ft * 825 lbs = 40.6 ft-lbs). So yes, this causes an additional component of stress on the bearings....but wait there's more....

According to one of the stickys on this forum, https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63320, a +31mm is still an acceptable fitment for a 18x8 wheel (apparently these numbers are from Acura), which is equivalent to a 14mm cantilever from ideal alignment. This produces a torque load using the above calculations of 37.9 ft-lbs. Remember, this is supposedly acceptable by Acura for the 04 TL.

So, with the 10mm wheel spacers and a 40mm offset, we are looking at 2.7 ft-lbs beyond Acura's accepted boundary (40.6 ft-lbs - 37.9 ft-lbs)...the question is...is this enough to be concerned about?

'Hope i didn't bore you with my nerdy analysis, but I just wanted to put some perspective to this discussion of "more stress on the bearings."

Conclusion: Don't know about you, but an additional 2.7 ft-lbs just doesn't look enough to be concerned about.

Comments?

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

IMO, reasonable spacers are OK, as long as the car is not used for off roading and the studs still have enough threads going into the lugnuts. For me, 5 mm is about the thickest I'd go, unless the studs are also replaced with the longer ones.

I have 6 mm spacers on my Accord with stock studs. I have been running with them for about 70k miles in the last +/- 2 years. No major problems whatsoever, including bearings that my mechanic recently checked. The car had 220k miles when he did.

The only problem I experience is that the car would vibrate if the wheels are not torqued when the car is still in the air, because the weight of the car will make it impossible to center the wheel to the hub. Other than this inconvenience, there's no other problems.

I don't notice any difference in tire wear, ride, noise, or anything. You won't even be able to tell that the car has spacers, until you take a peek behind the wheels.

Theoritically, in normal condition, the weight of the car is supported by the center hub and the studs. If you're using non hubcentric spacers, the weight of the car is supported only by the studs. This may cause problems if the car is used for offroading because the studs may break.

Using the non hubcentric spacers actually is similar as using non hubcentric wheels too. The weight of the car is only on the studs.

However, IMO. If you're spending money on aftermarket wheels, you should find something that fits properly, without help of spacers. I, for one, refuse to use spacers with my aftermarket wheels. I have to use spacers on my Accord because the wheels (93 Prelude VTEC) are too wide and the offset is also too high and they rub the suspension arms just so slightly. With the spacers, the problem is resolved without involving too much money.

If you insist on using spacers and don't want to get custom made ones, check H&R. They make hubcentric spacers that are of high quality and very precise. Unfortunately, they're not cheap.

ComptechType-S

The custom made spacers i got were $65 each (not a bad price). They are hubcentric and have a lip that my wheels center bore fits into. I went ahead and changed all 20 of my wheel studs (i put stronger and longer racing studs) and installed the spacers in the rear also. For those of us with the 6 spd manuals you dont need to put spacers in the rear... Any wheel with a 35 offset will clear the rear brakes just fine. I like a uniform look so i did the spacers in the rear also.


J.

TL-Rocks!

Oops, when I wrote 27 ft-lbs I meant 40.6 ft-lbs as in my calc. Sorry for any confusion.

TL-Rocks!

Thanks for sharing your info comptechtype-s. I'm still on the lookout for wheels I like without the use of spacers. But I guess at some point, I'll have to compromise on the wheel design or risk potential vibration using spacers for the wheels I do like...

I've spent many hours surfing the web for wheels I like but to no avail. What I'm looking for so far...so if someone comes across wheels that match the following description, please send me a link...

1) no 5-spokes (not knocking anyone for liking them, they are just not me0
2) no chrome (again, not my taste)
3) preferably no even # spoked wheels, though there are some that look kinda cool

Thanks in advance...

TL-Rocks!

Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm trying to stay away from 5-spoke, though the Inspyres caught my attention for a bit...

TL-Rocks!

Yeah, I anticipated that I would have to change out the studs to accomodate the spacers...

Of course the option is to go with 3-piece wheels for $$$$, but trying to be good and stay within budget.

Thanks for your comments!

TL-Rocks!

Hey guys,

After an exhaustive search for other wheel options, I still havent' found one I like... the search included counless online sources and catalogs, magazines, etc. With no luck whatsoever, I'm going back to the original wheel I talked about and use custom spacers...but I'm planning on using hub and wheel centric spacers to quelch the vibration issue. I did some measurements, and a 12-14mm spacer will clear the Brembos (with 40 offset wheel).

I started pricing the cost of having a shop do it and they quoted between $360-$500 simply for the labor, not including the studs!!! Yaoza! (I live in the SF bay area). I can do it myself if it doesn't involve pressing out any bearings...don't want to damage them.

What I need help on is how to swap out the studs for longer ones...do you have to press the bearings out of the disk brakes before getting the needed clearance to press out the studs? I don't have a service manual and wonder if any of you can send me the relevant pages from it (if you have one).

Comptech-S, you've done it already, how did you do it? And by the way, how are the wheels/spacers holding up?

Thanks in advance for any help.

nayyarn

I use 5mm spacers on the front and I have not had any vibration issues either. I don't have uneven tire either. You do lose some tread on the lugnuts with the spacers. Its only 5mm thought.

Indyjenks

...so where did you find a shop for these? This is exactly what Im looking for to use my stock TL-S wheels for winter. I have the Rotora BBK and need about 5mm to clear with the stockers.

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

to the 100th degree! I can tell you simply from ATV use on my fourwheeler, they ARE NOT THE WAY TO GO! Vibes, wobble, geometry probs, just to name a few. Get rims that fit!

ComptechType-S

I got mine from motorsports tech you can e-mail them at (lennystahl@motorsport-tech.com) you will need the center bore of the cars hub and the center bore of the wheels you want to put on your car. It took them about 3 day to custom make them.

TL-Rocks!

Did you use spacers that are hub and wheel centric? Basically I think vibration in this case is due to uneven weight distribution, and if they are hub/wheel centric to say....up to about .003" of an inch in diameter, there shouldn't be any vibrations caused by these spacers...but if you used some off the shelf generic spacers, then that's where I would be wary...just my

However, I should qualify that I haven't put mine on yet, but they are hub/wheel centric, custom made to order. Believe me, if I was able to find a wheel design I liked without going through this trouble, I would.

ComptechType-S

I have my custom made spacers installed and i have 0 vibration. I have more vibration from the wheel being out of balance than i have from my custom made spacers..

TL-Rocks!

Hi All,

Well, it's been a full 2 months since I posed the question of whether wheel studs were a good idea. Based on all your feedback, I tried to stay away from spacers and looked for a wheel design I liked that do not need spacers. But that search ended fruitless.

So with lots of care and some precaution, I ordered the custom hub/wheel centric spacers (14.5mm front, and 12.5mm rear), swapped out factory wheel studs with stronger/longer ARP racing studs, and got the wheels mounted at America's Tires (they are a great bunch of guys by the way--the one on Brokaw in San Jose CA--though a bit disorganized.)

One strange thing that happened was that the wheels rubbed on the brembo brake housing after they installed it. This happened despite me doing a test fit with the custom spacers that looked like it had about a 3mm clearance. But when the car was put back on the ground, the front right side started rubbing against the brake housing...by just a tad. I had to drive it home and took a dremel to the brake housing to clear the wheels.

However, with all this said and the trouble I went through, I'm happy to report that the spacers work like a charm...I've put about 200 miles on the new wheels and retorqued the lug nuts now. Bottom line is that they run with NO INCREASED VIBRATION!!! (I've taken it up to 90mph already with no vibrations.)

About the Pirelli Pzero Neros: They seem a bit noisier, though I gather that it may be due to the fact that I put wider tires (245/40-18's) and the larger wheel makes for a stiffer ride...which may translate to more noise...

However, I've noticed that when I hit an irregular spot at highway speeds, and the front suspension compresses to accomodate, I hear a rubbing sound like tire against the wheel well or fender...but since the overall tire diameter did not increase, I don't really know why it's doing that or where it's coming from. Any suggestions as to where to look?

pughater

no

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

While the overall diameter may have not changed, your offset has changed. I don't know the offset of the wheels you bought because I couldn't find it on the web site, but since you said the spokes were rubbing against the caliper, I'm going to assume that the outer edge of the wheels/tires sits about the same as the stock setup.

This means that all of the extra width is now sitting on the inner side. Under compression, it could be hitting anything, such as the spring/strut, fender liner, etc. Best way to find out is to chalk your tires on the inner and outer edges and go driving for a bit. Wherever you see chalk other than the tire afterwards, that's where it's rubbing.