InFaMouSLink

iTrader: (10)

Fronts are done. Rears are in the air. The bushings on both rears are approx 2-3mm larger than the hole where they belong!!!!!! Am i suppose to bend the fork out to make the bushings fit or should i grind down the bushing? These just came out of an 06 TL.
I think this is because the Koni SP3 base is alot smaller than the Tein bushings so it kinda squeezed the fork in. Am i correct.

I'll post pics later.

InFaMouSLink

iTrader: (10)

Plan- Buy a piece of All-thread, 2 big ass washers and two nuts to spread the fork out. Smart idea on two hours of sleep??? we will find out! Off to lowes!

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

Mmmh you should call Marcus at HTA... He prob cuz answer that in a jiffy

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Have you thought about a pry bar, jam it in there and just pry until you bend it back open? If not, maybe something like a metal wedge of some kind.
If I'm understanding correctly the two holes that the bottom of the assembly sat in were thinner on the previous susp. so when you torqued down the bolt it pinched them together. If anything, maybe you can use the bottom of the KONI perch to pry the two apart a little...at least the extra few mm's to get the TEIN on.

Good luck!

InFaMouSLink

iTrader: (10)

Got a long bolt two nuts and 4 washers from lowes this morning.
-----{||[]--------[]||}------
--- = bolt
{= fork
|= washer
[]= nut
Basically just used the nuts on opposite sides to spread the fork open. Worked like a charm.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Correct, I can.




Let me guess, when you took the Konis out, there were NOT two big flat washers on either side of the lower mount bushing? I am guessing NO.

There were supposed to be 4 washers included with the Konis to go on either side of the lower mount on the rear shock. Why? Because the same Koni part is sold for a TSX which has a narrower shock mount on the rear hub carrier. Konis plug right into a TSX but need a pair of washers to space out the mounting on a TL.

When your konis were installed without the washers, the nut was tightened and the rear shock mount closed up to take in the gap. In other words, it got bent.

Now, when you are trying to install the Tein dampers the lower mounts are too narrow because the Teins are made to fit a TL knuckle which is now bend out of place.

Your corrective action was acceptable. Just what I would do. Just keep in mind that the Konis were initially installed incorrectly. The Teins fit perfect out of the box.

Marcus
949-295-1668

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

A less thorough yet entirely accurate reply

djbonsu

iTrader: (3)

^^^umm, yea...i was gonna say something like that....but you summed it up well

infamouslink: did you have any abnormal suspension noises without those washer? i imagine you would

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

I pride myself on putting things into layman's terms, lol.
Glad it got resolved, and gotta say Heeltoe, posting a good solution pretty quickly including your phone number is very reassuring for anyone considering buying from you.

Parts you can find anywhere, customer service is a slowly dying art form.

InFaMouSLink

iTrader: (10)

Never had any wierd noise coming from the suspension. The fork was really pinched into the koni strut as if it was meant to fit. no gaps at all.

Thanks for the info Marcus. Thats something that i didn't know about the konis. I dont remember seeing them when i bought them tho.

My method worked great for this application. Hope it helps someone out.

Tein Suspension saved the car. I was ready to sell it cuz i couldn't get it riding to my liking. Took a 45 minute drive today and im enjoying taking turns like nothing and feelings the car on the pavement.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Tein is the way to go, hands down. My opinion, but having been on springs and megans etc...along the way...the TL got Tein's and I'll never look back.

InFaMouSLink

iTrader: (10)

i went from Aspec to koni sp3 with teins, koni sp3 with type S springs, Koni with Neuspeed race springs. It felt the car was all over the place. Tried all stiffness ranges and stiff was too stiff ( car would KNOCK at every little bump) and soft was taking turns using what felt like all 3 lanes while bopping around. The Teins ss, Those turns i was taking yesterday did it for me. i had alot of stuff in the car making noise but still at 80MPHs nad taking the turns, the car felt very grounded. Perfect match with my new 245/40/18 Falkens.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

A lot of places SAY they know customer service...but do they know what it means?




Infamous, Koni is notorious for forgetting to put hardware in their shock boxes. It happens to us a lot. So we only get ours from Neuspeed who personally checks the boxes for hardware for us before shipping.




Also, a major difference between the Teins and the Konis is that while they are both great adjustable shocks, the Konis have a WIDE adjustment range for lots of different springs, the Teins have a specific valving for the springs they come with and fine tuning ability. It is more difficult to get the Koni dampers adjusted juuuuussst right. The Teins can be scrutinized one click at a time and a definite tuning ability is achieved. Koni fans like to poo on Teins because from firm to soft the range is not as big, but there is a reason for it and it is important to know why

NCTL05

iTrader: (9)

Very, very creative. I never would have thought about that.

I just put some shocks on. I was able two get two shims on one, but the other was pinched a little so I only got one shim on that one. It left a small gap. The gap was only as thick as a credit card. Maybe less. Is that ok?

AMUA6

iTrader: (7)

I learn something new everyday!

ABP_04TL

iTrader: (2)

boy was that install a bitch... could have been a quick install, but because those 2 forks were bent took us 4ever i mean literally 4ever till lex thought about that idea with the washer nut and bolt... car is really feelin the way it should have been...

<----next on line to get my SS... these koni's of mine are on the remove list.

I hate cars

I'm not sure I would call the Teins an upgrade over the Konis. The track may tell a different story. I haven't found a shock yet that had the street manners and the track performance of the Konis all in one.

That wide adjustment range is nice for those of us that not only do springs but swaybars too. Going with a larger swaybar can require nearly twice the damping.

But if you like the ride of the Teins and it's not a track car then it sounds like you have a winner.

TRIOD3SIGNS

I LIKE MY KONIS... true, it took 2 months to get then just right. BUT THEY ARE NOW PURRRRRRR-FECT

InFaMouSLink

iTrader: (10)

IHC - thats the wide range Marcus was talking about. In no way is my car ever seeing a real track. Open NY highways is the closest thing and for that reason, Teins > Koni. I went through what i think was every setting of the konis (dampening wise) and i do have the progress rsb. I never found a good medium for these disgusting/POTHOLED Fked-up NYC roads. As soon as i threw on the Teins, 10F/12R, cars felt alot better than the konis. I feel more grounded while im driving, today i was talking turns that i know i would never do with the Konis, and going over the bumps felt like nothing. Todays driving felt better and i think i might stiffen the front a little more.

trio- ABP_04TL loves his konis- he's had them for over 2 years. he took one drive after our install and now thinks tein> Koni.

I hate cars

I understand the difference in perception of ride quality. But I still haven't seen a shock that can out do the Konis on what shocks are supposed to do-- Control body and suspension motion and keep the wheels in contact with the ground. I'm not saying the Teins don't soak up the bumps better but I doubt they would actually corner better. You can't tell until you take it up to the limit. Just taking a few corners a little harder than normal won't tell you what the car is capable of.

I'm comparing it to the guys that install just the large RSB and think the car corners so much better because it's flatter just to find out at the limit it's extremely tail happy. But if ride quality over potholed roads is better and that's mostly what you deal with, I can see why you would like the Teins better

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Tein makes different dampers for different uses where Koni consolidates more. Look at the TSX applications for example (they make more stuff for TSXs because it is a global car)


Tein offers
Basic/SS = daily street sports
FLEX = street performance, light track use
Mono FLEX = more involved track duty
CST = street luxury, designed for upsized wheels and comfort
Dampers are valved different from the TSX and TL because of differences in the spring rates and vehicle weight.


Koni
Sport shock
Race shock
Also, they have the same shock for the TSX, TL, and Accord.



It is really easy to say that Konis are the king because when you know how to set them up they work really well. But this level of tuning is not something that street sport people are REALLY looking for. The Teins are good right out of the box. I get people calling hating their Konis and it takes 20 min of discussion before I can convince them to keep messing with them. Who wants to deal with that?

Likewise, nobody here is looking for track suspension. The Koni sport w GC is the closest to a track kit you are going to get on a TL right now. There is a reason there are few options.

Following the notion of the rear bar causing oversteer (which I still don't completely subscribe to) you only see that near the limit, which street sport people won't be doing either. If 2 parts work flawlessly at 6-7/10ths, they are equivalent to a driver who only takes it to that limit. The differentiation in products becomes cost and features.

I hate cars

I agree with different valving for different weight but the TL, TSX, and Accord are within 8% of one another from the heaviest to the lightest. It's not enough to require a difference in valving. They have adjustable rebound which is most important when swapping out springs of different rates. Compression is more of a weight based setting with less emphasis on spring rate (but some).

I know you're in the business of selling stuff so I understand your grief with this. It can cost you business. My point of view is screw 'em. If they don't want to take the time to educate themselves and get mad at the product, they don't need to be modding cars.

It's never been hard for me. Get them in the ballpark based on your spring/swaybar combo. It's common sense that a bone stock suspension needs less damping so start them at or near full soft. Add swaybars that are 400% stiffer and aftermarket springs and it's common sense to start them at 50%.The wide range is a good thing unless you don't know how to set them up. Many people compensate for springs that are too soft by upping the rebound damping which is very wrong. Why dumb down the product instead of educating the consumer?
No one is looking for a track suspension (at the moment) but why would you not want to get as close to track performance as possible while maintaining acceptable street manners? I feel the Konis give excellent balance.


The Progress bar in firm in conjunction with the 5at front bar gives very real oversteer. I'm not the only one that notices this. There are a few posters now that have been to the track and complain about the oversteer. I'm telling you from firsthand experience that my car oversteered a lot when I had that combo. A TL dragging it's ass all over the track is not the quickest way around. On the street it's dangerous for most drivers.
Why would you want something that only works well at 7/10ths? Why spend the money on something that will get beat by a stock TL under track conditions? I want something that will do well in every scenario. If it works great at 10/10ths it's going to work awesome at 7/10ths.

You're basically trading safety, balance, and overall cornering ability for something that feels good during normal driving. What happens when someone pulls out in front of you and you have to swerve out of the way with that giant rear bar and the car spins?

InFaMouSLink

iTrader: (10)

On to the Pics-

here is the Teins NOT fitting the in rear fork



Old Front-


New Front


Old rear


New rear


Old Full drop


new drop

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

That looks nice...I love it. How dumped are you? All the way?

NCTL05

iTrader: (9)

Nice! What perch were you on when you had the konis?

InFaMouSLink

iTrader: (10)

not all the way. 24.5 inches from center of fender to floor all around. after springs settle, i'll go a little lower.

-2 Front, 0 rear on RACE springs

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Hmmm....mine has 1/2" from the bottom of threading (the way they make you measure) on the front and 3/4" on the rear. I MAY go all the way IF I decide I want to wait for another alignment and deal with -2 front camber and scrapin everywhere. But probably not.

Similar drop though and I'll never go back to anything but TEIN, for sure.

InFaMouSLink

iTrader: (10)

i didn't do the tein way of measuring. Car wouldn't been off since i have a system and the heavy ass battery. Plus i took into account my weight. if i remember tho its was like around 3 threads front and barely showing 4 in the rear but i actually measured floor to fender. took alot of time and measuring but it was worth it. Too bad i have to do it all over again lol.

As for your -2 Camber.... have fun with that. Specs on those wheels and tires?? I think ima just add some spacers to my rears and roll the fenders if needed. 18X8 with 245/40 and im almost touching already
Your car looks sick. Needs some new exhaust tips tho.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Hmmm...well my logic was that as long as the fronts were even and the rears were even I'd measure their way.

Thanks for the compliment! I'm happy with it...your car is great too...I love Anthracite and your drop is perfect...no matter HOW you measured

I have 19 by 9, with a +35 rear and +45 front, no spacers, no fender rolling and -.7 rear camber --1.3 front camber. Tires are 235 35.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

The valving is exactly the thing that should have been changed in R&D, but I am pretty sure not every car gets the most attention. I guess I would get pretty anal about it after my experiences. The compression is really what needs to match the spring rate since both are really weight-based specs. The only need to change these comes when the weight changes or the effective load is high with high cornering grip/speeds. The rebound is a reactionary setting that to me stands more on its own because it imparts more control on the body movement, which ultimately determines the level of control.

It doen't cost me business, it affords me an opportunity. If I get someone on the phone like you, I would say cup kit all they way, almost exclusively because of the dampening range on the konis. But you might, again, be losing sight of the fact the MOST PEOPLE are not like us, and need something more simple to deal with. There is a time and place to recommend different things, and it is easier to educate yourself with equipment that is more definitive.

A professor told me somthing one day that really has stuck with me, and that was, "there is no such thing as common sense." It is a completely relative terms. What makes sense to one person does not to another. In fact, the pure fact that so many people lack common sense negates its own existence. A lot of people really don't get this stuff that well. There is nothing common sense about it. It is not about dumbing the product down, it is about bringing yourself down from someplace high to somewhere that people understand what you are talking about.

I sell a lot of parts because I understand how this stuff works and can put it in terms that are comfortable for people to make decisions based on. Sometimes the conversation ends early. Sometimes it take 30 minutes. I do educate the customers but you, my friend, need to understand that we are not all looking for the same things.

Why not? Because many people simply do not care about how well the system performs. They want the car to sit where they want and ride well on the street. Why do you think I wrote this article?
http://www.heeltoeauto.com/pitboard/?p=245
It was a product of so many customers literally telling me "I don’t track my car, and I don’t want my suspension ‘bouncy.'" THAT is what they want. I openly tell people that Konis have a higher performance potential because of the range in damping adjustment, but that there is a higher learning curve needed to adjust them versus the Teins. They make their own choice.

I don't think we can really debate this since I don't have the track experience to support a counter argument. It isn't a concession, but we've already hashed this out so much. I am planning a trip to the track to test my TSX w/ and w/o an RSB. It is a different car, I know, but should give me a little more information on the matter.

If 7/10s ride/performance is the goal, then that IS the person's relative "10/10ths." You are truly a performance oriented person. Not everyone has the same perspective. There are a lot of people here where literally getting low is the only thing they care about. And while you or I disagree with the taste in mods or goals, they are not invalid. "How it works" is relative also. All these parts can be driven at 10/10ths. The speed at the 10/10ths varies. But also the parts that perform fastest at 10/10ths won't always, and rarely are, the same ones that look 10/10ths in the parking lot, or ride 10/10ths to your mother-in-law. I am with you to a degree, in that the beauty is in the function. But now everyone feels the same. You gotta respect that.

This is an extreme argument. I'd never suggest someone to buy something that compromised safety. If the average person thought a RSB would make a TL tail-happy, we'd know about it. We'd warn people, and they would not buy it. Someone who is going to have a spin with an RSB is possibly going to have some sort of issue regardless of what parts are on the car. You mentioned dealer scare tactics in another threat. This is one as well. Over-steering as a TL with an RSB might be at the track at max performance, it definitely doesn't react that way during normal spirited street driving.

Marcus

InFaMouSLink

iTrader: (10)

Hey marcus, Can you take a pic of the all the hardware included in the Koni kit. Thanks.

Also, i would like to just say regarding all your previous post, that i would HIGHLY recommend you as a seller/installer. This is the customer service still needed within our world.Thank you for your services.

I hate cars

The rebound is affected much more by changing spring rate. I'm not disputing that compression is not affected as well because it is. It's just not affected as much but vehicle weight does have the largest impact. I wish compression was adjustable on the Konis but I haven't seen anything short of a race shock that has adjustable compression.

I mean that if the customer is not educated and they think a certain product is difficult to tune or get it to feel right, they may not buy it. It's not a dig at you at all. It means you have to work harder doing the leg work for them.

Understood. I just thought this stuff was easy. I have no formal education on the subject. The way I looked at it is stock springs are about the softest you're going to pair the Konis with. Aftermarket springs paired with larger swaybar are going to require much more damping. So 0% and 50% seemed like good starting point respectively.
I realize that. It's hard because I come from a different background where performance is first and looks are second. This is kind of an answer to the below statement too. I can even understand doing something for looks only. But installing something that will reduce performance from factory standards is very hard for me to grasp. I just don't understand how anyone is comfortable with this.

That sounds like good advice to me.

Looking forward to hearing your experience.

I understand, I just don't agree.

The RSB in conjunction with the small 5at front bar is not a safety hazard in normal to spirited driving. You have to push the limit to find it. However, why do people spend the money on it with no other mods? It does not help the looks of the car and it does not make it corner quicker. It only makes it feel like it corners better through more rear bias and less bodyroll. Most cars will feel better at 7/10ths when set up to be tail happy so I understand why people think it corners better.

Maybe it comes back to ME but I want to back up anything I say on here and I want the car to get around the track as quickly as possible while sacrificing an acceptable amount of ride quality. I can't comprehend putting this part on a car just to "feel" like it corners better when in reality putting it on the track it's not going any faster and possibly slower than stock with the tail happy nature. It's fun, don't get me wrong, but it's not the fastest.

I do have to bring up the safety aspect. The car is far from a death trap on wheels. But in the event that you have to push it 10/10ths in an emergency, just know the tail is going to slide.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

IHC, you are one of the good ones. I love this forum.


Only one reply to: "I mean that if the customer is not educated and they think a certain product is difficult to tune or get it to feel right, they may not buy it."

I just bought a Ducati S2R for my first bike, despite the fact I've never ridden, never worked on a bike, and people scare the crap out of you with maintenance horror stories.

I know me, I know I can figure it out, I get what I want. I wasn't interested in just hauling ass, even though that would have been easier. I know that if it requires less work then it probably isn't as rewarding either. Customers need to do soul-searching to find out what is best for them. Believe it or not, some people come into it saying they don't know what they are doing but they want to glean some knowledge. They are really easy to connect with and will surprise me sometimes.

Believe me, if you asked me to say which setup I sold more of I'd have a hard time guessing correctly.

I hate cars

Congrats on the Duc. A co-worker bought one last year and he loves it. The nearest dealer is 2 hours away in Fresno so it's not too bad when service time comes around though I think he's been there 4 times in one year for regular scheduled maint. I had to stare at a picture for an hour to figure out how the springless valvetrain worked.

You're above average in your mechanical ability and with your experience you know what you're getting yourself into. I think you've been around the block enough times to know that most of the time you don't just bolt on a part and walk away, it requires tuning and adjustment to perfect. What I was getting at is many people around here I see don't want to mess with adjustments. I was agreeing with you in a round about way that the Teins might be the better choice for some.

I hate cars

Ot, but you're going to Acurafest this year, right? I wouldn't mind buying a set of braces off of you and this way would be much easier to sneak past the GF than a large UPS box.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Haha, yea planning on sponsoring again. Waiting for atlp and treo to hit me up this week.

InFaMouSLink

iTrader: (10)

Hey marcus, Can you take a pic of the all the hardware included in the Koni kit. Thanks.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Well, not at the moment...

But for each corner you have:

Base/Non-S
2 nuts
one flanged washer
one steel collar for inside the bushings
two larger thick,flat washers

On the Type-S, you only need to run one thick flat washer underneath and the two nuts on top. You may delete the collars and you will need to drill out the Type-S bushings.

In either case you are going to have OEM parts left over and in the case of the Type-S you'll have some left over koni stuff as well.