harddrivin1le

This isn't the only place I've read this (or something similar):


http://www.mazda6tech.com/index.php?...d=19&Itemid=50

"The main original purpose of slotted and cross-drilled rotors was to vent gases that buildup between the pads and the rotors. However, this reasoning is no longer valid.

As the years have gone by pads have been designed that produce very little gas. Furthermore many pads come with groves in themselves that allow for the removal of any minor gas that is created. A slotted or drilled rotor always decreases the rotors capability to dissipate heat amongst itself. A slotted or drilled rotor will also clean off the brake pad as it passes the slots at the expense of faster pad wear. As such there are benefits for rally and dirt tracks. Furthermore, the slots or holes themselves can serve to wipe off the top layer of glaze that tends to appear on your brake pads. Some racers say this last part is beneficial while others question whether the slots will fill before the deglaze affect is ever helpful. I have yet to determine the answer to this question.

The answer of slotted and cross-drilled rotor usefulness seems to lie with whether the benefit of cleaning the pads outstrips the loss in heat dissipation."

At best, slotted rotors are controversial.

It's certainly nothing I'd be willing to spend money on unless the rotors themselves were a lot larger (and new and/or relocated calipers were involved to accommodate them).

kyle-wdp

I'm gonna go over to www.ls2.com and argue about Camaro brakes just for the fun of it.

1le has a point though. the Type S pads do squeal....oh wait we already knew that....that was HIS point

harddrivin1le

You know NOTHING about "Camaro brakes," so your sarcasm is rooted in ignorance.

'98 + cars got Corvette front calipers and vented, 11.8" rotors at all 4 corners.

The lighter examples (like my 1LE) weighed in at less than 3,400 pounds with a full tank of gas.

Now explain to me why that wouldn't stop VERY WELL - particularly once the admittedly marginal pads were replaced with some better aftermarket pieces (as was the case with my car).

I know how it stopped because I owned one and drove it for 6 years and 80,000 miles. It had MORE STOPPING POWER than my TL-S - particularly at higher speeds and/or from repeated hard stops.

I also know that it got about the same mileage as my TL-S, even thought it made another ~ 60 HP, had a far more robust torque curve and was a considerably faster car.

There was simply NO comparison in terms of overall balance - this TL feels like an older, front drive Cadillac compared to that 1LE. The Camaro could be driven all day at 9/10ths once the driver had some experience...

Bearcat94

Not to get off track, but, my Camaro brakes went to shit within a year. Cheap ass caliper kept sticking closed, ruining pads and rotors.

Also, seats cracked and the paint was garbage. When it lost a water pump, I dumped it.

I'll never buy another one.

Bearcat94

How do you know "Acura specified an overly agressive pad"? How can you possibly KNOW that - did you analyze it compared to others? Did you ask an Acura engineer? Do you work for Acura?

How can you possibly KNOW with certainty?

And if it's true, why don't all TL-S's have this problem?

kyle-wdp

I owned four f bodies then a CTS-V. On three of the four, the rotors and pads were replaced due to warpage. Once replaced the braking was very impressive to me. My SS ran 121 through the quarter on pump gas with working air, heat, and full interior. Your claim that I am ignorant about Camaros or their brakes is ridiculous since you don't know me or my car ownership history. Although I don't have a degree in mechanical engineering, I don't need one because unlike engineers, I actually work for a living and people like me. I will refrain from any further posts because my questions to you and others have gone unanswered.

Bearcat94

Since you’re having such a hard time understanding what is being presented, let’s start over.

You claim the TL-S should have larger rotors for the following reasons:

1. Because other cars do.
2. Because you want to be able to perform multiple 120+ to 0 stops on the “open road”.
3. Because you thought you bought a track car.
4. Because they’d look better.
5. Because it’s the “standard”.
6. Because the TL-S stops inadequately.
7. Because the TL-S’s primary competitors stop better.
8. Because you’re a Mechanical Engineer your OPINION should be taken on faith.

Lets address these one-by-one.

Bearcat94

1. Because other cars do.


Didn’t your mom ever say, “If your friend jumps off the bridge, are gonna jump too?”

This line of thinking is too stupid to pursue further.

Bearcat94

2. Because you want to be able to perform multiple 120+ to 0 stops on the “open road”.



The irresponsible behavior of you or others like you is reprehensible. And your attitude about it, even more so.

Bearcat94

3. Because you thought you bought a track car.

How do you know they don’t?

Along with al the usual suspects (Acura, Audi, BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, etc), and a few true performance cars (BMW M’s, Ferrari, Porsche, etc), here are some questionable examples that “marketing” called performance cars:

Chevrolet Malibu V6
Chrysler 300C
Chrysler PT Cruiser GT
Honda Accord V6 (You bought one of these too didn’t you? Ever track it stock?)
Hyundai Elantra GT
Hyundai Tiburon V6
Lincoln LS V8
Nissan Sentra 2.5S
Toyota Camry SE V6
Volkswagen New Beetle Turbo S


The TL-S would track better than any of them. Why? ‘Cause each one is even less of a track car than the TL-S. You gotta learn that “Marketing” means “Little White Lies for the Gullible”.

Bearcat94

4. Because they’d look better.


True. 1 for you.

Bearcat94

5. Because it’s the “standard”.


“.... BMW's brakes are large by industry standards ….”.

http://autos.nytimes.com/2007/BMW/5_...spx#topSection

Who should I believe? You? Or the Professional?

Bearcat94

6. Because the TL-S brakes are inadequate.


Simply not true. In day-to-day use, this car has the brakes it needs and stops better than the MAJORITY of cars with similar straight line performance.

The Swept Area per Ton on the TL-S is ABOVE AVERAGE for cars with similar straight line performance, regardless of price.

TL-S = 273 sq. in.
Avg (16 Sport Sedans, incl Audi, BMW, MB, Lexus, Infiniti, etc, etc) = 270 sq in.

EXCEPT for the BMW 330i, that’s best out of 25 cars with similar straight line performance.

Make & Model…………………........ 60 - 0
BMW 330i………………………......... 116
Acura TL-S…………………......… 117
BMW 335i………………………......... 119
Infinity G35 Sport……………....…. 120
Volkswagon GTI………………....... 120
Mazda MazdaSpeed6………….... 121
Audi A4 2.0T Quattro…………..... 122
BMW 545i………………………......... 121
Mini Cooper S…………………........ 122
Volvo S80 V8 AWD……………...... 123
Lexus GS430………………….......… 126
BMW 325xi……………………........… 123
Subaru Impreza WRX………….... 124
Lexus IS250 AWD……………....… 125
Lexus IS350……………………........ 126
Acura RL…………………….........…… 126
Subaru Legacy 2.5GT spec.B… 126
Infinity G35x……………………........ 127
Toyota Camry SE V6…………...... 127
Lexus IS350……………………........ 128
Mercedes-Benz E350 Sport….. 129
Volvo S40 T5 AWD……………...... 130
Dodge Charger R/T……………..... 132
Mercedes-Benz C350 Sport….. 135
Lexus LS460……………………....... 143


But wait, that’s not all. Against the same group of cars, the TL is WELL INSIDE the top 1/3 in stopping distances from 80 – 0 and at 214 ft SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER THAN AVERAGE.

Make & Model…........……………… 80 - 0
Mazda MazdaSpeed6………...... 207
Infinity G35 Sport……………....... 208
BMW 330i…………………….........… 209
BMW 335i…………………….........… 210
Volkswagon GTI…………......……. 210
Audi A4 2.0T Quattro…………..... 210
Acura TL-S…………...…........... 214
BMW 545i………………….........…… 214
Volvo S80 V8 AWD…………......… 216
Mini Cooper S…………………........ 217
Lexus GS430…………………......... 219
Lexus IS350…………………........… 219
Infinity G35x…………………........… 222
Lexus IS350………………........…… 222
Toyota Camry SE V6…………...... 223
BMW 325xi…………………….......... 224
Lexus IS250 AWD…………......…. 224
Acura RL………………………........... 224
Subaru Legacy 2.5GT spec.B... 225
Mercedes-Benz E350 Sport….. 226
Volvo S40 T5 AWD…………......… 226
Subaru Impreza WRX………...... 227
Dodge Charger R/T…………....... 240
Mercedes-Benz C350 Sport….. 241
Lexus LS460…………………...........251

Bearcat94

7. Because the TL-S’s primary competitors stop better.

No. They don’t.

See “6.” Above and http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=4459

I hate cars

The suspension is far worse than the brakes at high speeds.

I hate cars

Oops, sorry that I interrupted your chain lol.

Bearcat94

8. Because you’re a Mechanical Engineer your OPINION should be taken on faith.

High School Physics. KE = ½mv^2

Did you learn E = mc^2 too?



I guess by now everybody who ever read AcuraZine know’s you’re a Mechanical Engineer. What’s curious is the way you seem to need to repeat it.

As if you expect it to automatically confer respect. As if you need to re-enforce it for your own needs.

You notice, no one continuously jumps into the “Lease or Buy” threads, saying “I’ve got degree in finance, I’ve got degree in finance”.

No one jumps continuously into the WDP paint threads and says, “I’m an Optical Physicist, I’m an Optical Physicist.”

No one continuously jumps into the Audio threads and says, “I’m an Electrical Engineer, I’m an Electrical Engineer.”


Know why? Nobody gives a shit, that’s why. You get respect from the way you treat people and the way you *share* knowledge. You don’t know when to say, “The heck with it. You don’t get and I can’t make you. I am done”



One Example of Dozens:

You got some work to do.

Bearcat94

Seeing how I am so magnanimous and fair minded, tell you what I’ll do:

You admit the brakes on the TL are better than most cars in it’s class on a day-to-day basis and agree not to on this topic again and I’ll let you off the hook. Deal?

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

Bearcat94 for President! Who's with me?!?

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

Kennedy for Vice... what a ticket that would be!

Bear... ... ... "speechless".

harddrivin1le

How are the TL-S's brakes "better than most cars in its class on a day to day basis?"

1) They are NOISY

2) They make LOTS OF DUST

3) The pads wear quickly. (So will the rotors, since the aggressive pads will wear them sooner and make them run hotter.)

4) The brake pedal is "low" and soft - not at all of what one would expect from a TRUE performance car.

5) The distance required to stop once - from 60 MPH or 80 MPH - is more representative of the tires, the road surface, weight transfer and ABS algorithms than it is the brakes themselves. Why is that? Because virtually any modern car is fully capable of locking all 4 wheels (thereby invoking ABS) at those speeds! (It's also worth noting that ANY DISTANCES THAT WEREN'T OBTAINED BY THE SAME DRIVER UNDER THE SAME SET OF ROAD CONDITIONS CANNOT BE ACCURATELY COMPARED, since those elements all play major roles in stopping distances.).

6) Stopping power itself is the product of Rotor Torque X Rotor RPM at any given speed, where Rotor Torque = Pad Friction Force * Effective Brake Radius (the radial distance from the center of the hub to the caliper piston's center of pressure).

Hence, larger rotors, by definition, yield a longer effective brake radius and an immediate mechanical advantage that is directly proportional to the increase in diameter.

Aggressive pads and/or greater clamping force can help - for awhile - by increasing the Pad Friction Force. But ultimately, it becomes a question of heat dissipation, because:

7) Larger rotors have more mass and more surface area and are therefore better heat sinks.

Thus:

8) Attempting to compensate for smaller rotors by specifying more aggressive pads and/or greater clamping force quickly results in a "vicious cycle," where the smaller rotors become incapable of dissipating the additional heat. Hence, fade sets in and braking performance plummets.

9) That is why a 3,600 pound, 286 HP car fitted with 12.2" front rotors and 11.1" rear rotors will quickly suffer from brake fade and dramatically reduced braking performance in any situation that gets the rotors (and/or calipers) VERY hot. Such situations included stopping from very high speeds and/or multiple stops from medium to high speeds (e.g. on a road racing circuit).

10) Hence, REAL performance sedans use LARGER ROTORS. Doing so allows them to specify quieter, longer lasting, less aggressive pads.



I am done here. Any sensible person can read the host of links I've posted on this subject (rather than focusing on a single magazine test result that says more about tires, road conditions and the ABS system than it says about actual braking power) and form his/her own conclusions.

Expect to see SIGNIFICANTLY larger rotors on the 2009 TL, due to the reasons I've pointed out above.

ARX-01b

iTrader: (1)

Go Bearcat, Go Bearcat....

rylloyd

harddrivin = dwight shroot

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

OMG... That's funny.

harddriven, ever rhetorical question you post from now forward should be posed in this format:

"Question..."

- " insert rhetoric here"



"Answer..."

- "Insert your more rhetoric here"

Bearcat94

I offered you an easy way out. I knew you wouldn’t take it.

Predicting your behavior is easier than predicting that the sun will rise tomorrow morning.


You might remember this little ditty from 2004:

Bearcat94

I’ve jerked your chain for the past 4 days, in at least two threads and over 10+ pages of useless posts, just to show anybody following along who and what you are.

Anybody can look up your history. You’ve had thread, after thread, after obstinate, rude, condescending, argumentative thread closed going back to at least 2004.

The past 4 days, I have STRUNG YOU ALONG by mimicking your tactics:

- You find a thread, usually related to TL performance, latch on to a few select comments and perform a complete and total threadjack;
- You then refute those comments and reference a car in completely different class (focusing on an LE1 Camaro);
- You will then post links supporting your argument ignoring the fact that the cars are dis-similar;
- You will ignore real-life observations or actual data and counter that your experience is more valuable
- You will repost articles or links about what *should* happen but offer no verifiable proof;
- You ignore links, articles or data others post as counter-claims or attempt to refute them in a similar manner;
- You will support your public sources; then reject that source if used in a counter-argument;
- You reply to your own posts in an attempt to add more "evidence";
- You revert to repeating previous claims over and over ad nauseum; (I thought I copied this especially well ) ;
- You will “machine-gun” post in an attempt to overwhelm others; (ditto ) ;
- You change the topic from the original performance claim to a new claim;
- You then support the new claim in a similar fashion;
- And so it goes, until the thread gets locked, for page after page after page and thread, after thread, after thread.


Sucks, doesn’t it? A real PITA. But you don’t hesitate to do it to others.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Summarily:

Ignore this guy. He has all the classic hallmarks of a troll.

He's been pulling this same crap on and off since 2004. Look at some of his old threads if you don't believe me - honestly, take a look; if it weren't so pathetic, it'd be entertaining; Kind of like watching a train wreck.

His method is to beat you down by overwhelming you with posts, links and mathematical theory. He does so with a manner that hints at an under-lying insecurity; his responses are arrogant, disrespectful and condescending.

Even if you admit that he is right, he will ignore you to keep the argument going.



He disappeared (much to the relief of AcuraZine members I am sure) between May of 2004 and Late July of 2007. Now he's back, trolling with the same old "My Camaro LE1 is the best car ever and the TL sucks" BS. I don't think he can post more that twice in a thread without bringing up that his Precious Camaro was a "real" performance car.

Bearcat94

Now, here’s your initial response: Defensiveness and/or Denial.

You will think (and might even post):

“I’m not pwned. How can I be pwned, I am right. I don’t care what you think.”

“That’s not me. I don’t do that. People like me and respect me.”

“Because I am right, I am justified in continuing this discussion until they either admit that I am right or give up.”

“I knew what you were doing and I was just playing along. You didn’t fool me for a second.”

“This is just a tactic to avoid a position that you can’t defend.”



Like I said. Predictable. It’s human nature. This might help you figure out what’s going on:

http://www.proactivechange.com/psych...ief/stages.htm



The truly smart person would modify their behavior in order to be more effective. That’s what a man would do. What are you going to do?

But then again, you are a rude, insensitive, arrogant bastard who makes a habit of treating people like shit, so I’m not too hopeful. You keep it up, you’ll die miserable, lonely and bitter. (And if I get a ban for that, it’s worth having said it.)



Since you seem to have difficulty grasping the nuances of human interaction, and, again, seeing how I am a magnanimous and fair minded person, I’ll give you a heads up:

*Anything* that you post behind me (with the single exception of an apology to the AcuraZine 3G community), regarding your modus operandi or this thread and the various topics herein, will only make you look like a bigger fool.



:checkmate:

Bearcat94

Oh, and BTW: I say, “The heck with it. You won’t get it and I can’t make you. I am done.”


My apologies to anyone in the AcuraZine community who is in any way offended at my having called out this troll in this way. I am sorry we laid waste to a perfectly good thread.


This concludes the Bearcat94 Post-A-Thon. We now return to your regularly scheduled posting.

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

Again, Bearcat94 for President!!!

Arrest Hardass1LE!!!

I hate cars

So what do you guys think of using the RL brakes on the TL. I was thinking that since they're bigger, they will provide more leverage and better heat dissipation on the 3,600lb TL. Any opinions?

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Wait, you can't slam on the brakes and invoke ABS? What kind of tires are you running?

The fact that you claim these rotors indicates to me that whatever mechanical engineering degree you have I can wipe my ass with. You clearly don't know a whole lot about fluid/aero-dynamics, thermal transfer, and metallurgy. Bigger is not better man. If you can increase the braking performance by keeping the rotor diameter smaller you are at a huge advantage versus getting bigger parts (waiting to defend this one...go ahead...try me).

If you consider wear rate, heat effects on brake pad condition (the true component dictating braking performance), and higher coefficient of friction aspects of braking performance, then these rotors DO help. It is much more than a matter of warp resistance.



And there lies the contradiction in your arguement. Warping is caused by a rotor's inability to shed heat. You agree that these rotors will resist warping, yet disagree that they would dissipate heat.

?

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Yes, the torque length is longer providing greater braking torque. Guess what, that counteracts acceleration by adding to drive train loss, thereby decreasing performance in other parts of the vehicle performance. More mass also contributes to more unsprung weight impacting suspension performance.

You would be far better off upgrading the materials of the standard brakes and keeping them as small as possible to reduce weight.

REAL performance cars have brake systems which are spec'd the the vehicle performance. Yea, a GT-3 or Z06 has bigger brakes. They also have 400+ horsepower and suspension systems that are more aggressive. These are purpose built performance cars. The TL-S is a mildly tuned up family sedan.

Your argument about locking the brakes is correct, but I don't understand how rotor diameter is going to enhance the car's ability to lock the brakes. The brake torque is not likely to solve the issue there. Pad material and caliper pressure is. In fact, installing steel braided line would likely suffice in upping the caliper pressure enough to lock the brakes.

My point is, the size of the brakes is not the issue. The brakes on the car are not inadequate. But there is room for improvement that does not involve installing larger and heavier rotors.

Marcus

I hate cars

I agree that the TL-S is a mildly tuned up family sedan. That's probably the best description I've heard.

I'm not taking any sides here, believe me.

Increasing the diameter does increase the leverage the caliper has against the rotor. Increasing the diameter usually increases the mass which will dissipate heat better.

Stainless brake lines usually decrease pedal travel and improve pedal feel and responsiveness but I doubt you will see an actual increase in caliper pressure with them. I've done the switch on my other car.

My stock auto brakes warped without ever getting them hot after my first wheel rotation. The "techs" probably over torqued the lugs. If the rotor you offer adds more mass without increasing the diameter, I would buy them.

mr.almeida

Just to confirm with everyone the Hawk Pads fit perfectly. It took me about 45 minutes to do the front, next time it should only take 20 minutes. Oh yea I used a lift.

sherwin991

iTrader: (1)

Hey Mr. Almeida, how do the Hawks compare to the OEM pads for dust, noise and braking? Do they dust less? Are they quiet? Do they stop any better? I'm ready to call up Marcus for some of those if you got good results, because I'm almost ready to sell my car becuase these Brembo pads SUCK!

Evader

Here is a great DIY thread I found with a member putting Hawk pads onto the brembos

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=Brakes

harddrivin1le

The aftermarket rotors have to be the same width (or even slightly narrower) than the OEMs in order to fit between two fresh pads.

The diameter would be the same per your statement below.

So where would the added mass come from?

Most aftermarket "performance" rotors are actually lighter than the OEMs, since slotting and/or drilling reduces mass.

Such rotors are gimmicks for the most part - the cat iron version of "snake oil," if you will. A REAL aftermarket upgrade would involve larger diameter rotors of greater mass and a kit to relocate the OEM caliper location - preferably on all 4 wheels.

harddrivin1le

What magic material are the rotors you're offering made from? Do they dissipate heat any more effectively than the cast iron OEMs? Slotted rotors can REDUCE braking performance because they reduce swept area!

Aggressive pads and/or higher caliper pressure reduce rotor and pad life. Most people don't want that in a street car. Furthermore, they exacerbate the heat problems associated with under-sized rotors since they add even more heat.

You cited extreme examples of cars with larger brakes (e.g. GT3 and Z06) while failing to mention that EVERY competitor to the TL-S has LARGER ROTORS. EVERY competitor. Even a lowly, base model Nissan Maxima has larger rotors than a TL-S. In fact, many LIGHTER, LESS EXPENSIVE cars (e.g. Sentra SE-R, Mazdaspeed 3) have LARGER ROTORS than a TL-S.

And if Acura cared about unsprung weight they'd be using an aluminum lower control arm in lieu of that HUGE CAST IRON piece that looks like it came off of an International Harvester tractor.

So basically, every excuse you made for the small brakes on the TL-S is without merit.

I hate cars

I was thinking thicker rotor walls at the expense of slightly narrower vents. This would work for me because I need more of a heat sink, not a bigger brake. I rarely do much hard braking and even when I do it's two or three stops. A little more meat in the rotor area to help it to not warp would be nice. I have yet to fade the stock brakes.

mr.almeida

These Hawk Pads are amazing. It's definitely day and night. IMO it's the better buy because OEM pads cost about $140 and I bought my Hawks for $120 shipped. I noticed less brake dust and they don't squeak. The stop power is significant!!! Buy them and fall in love again.