Strut Bar for EDFC
11-19-2007, 03:23 PM
#41
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yes, those are the accord top hats.. i really wanted the EDFC, but i hated how the car drove without the bar. I didnt like the idea of modifying the factory bar either. The greddy bar was the only option at the time. i have no regrets about going that route. but obviously, if there was a bar made for the TL that fit with the EDFC it would have been a no brainer.
11-19-2007, 09:07 PM
#42
~Da Nocturnal Cheetah~
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by BLACKURA_NY
yea. is that picture with the accord top hats? because i do see two bolts holding it in place.
Ive spoken with lots of other members, who are without the bar, and claim the car is fine, which im sure it is.. However, having that bar MUST have some type of imporvement to chasis flex and handling.
ray, if you can come through with a perfect bar.. that would be the shit. keep us all posted on this and any other members with input please ... add to the convo!
Ive spoken with lots of other members, who are without the bar, and claim the car is fine, which im sure it is.. However, having that bar MUST have some type of imporvement to chasis flex and handling.
ray, if you can come through with a perfect bar.. that would be the shit. keep us all posted on this and any other members with input please ... add to the convo!
11-20-2007, 06:09 PM
#44
Originally Posted by MrHeeltoe
Also why would they want to produce a bar that will enable people to run one of their suspension competitor's damper system?
Marcus
Marcus
Touché.....
well, i know its a proto-type project now, but if so, what do ya think is the ETA ? hoping to tackle my suspension dilemmas before spring time
11-20-2007, 06:11 PM
#45
also.. on the sales aspect of it..
the bar doesnt JUST have to be for EDFC accomadation... maybe a larger before to decrease understeer or something... im sure it would sell..
if it was identical to stock, but just allowed for an EDFC, of course the market share will be low.... but.. if they just make a thicker larger bar to increase handling....and happen to throw the EDFC factor in... im sure they could move a few hundred of these bars.. people purchase the rear bar to increase handling.. why not a front bar ??
the bar doesnt JUST have to be for EDFC accomadation... maybe a larger before to decrease understeer or something... im sure it would sell..
if it was identical to stock, but just allowed for an EDFC, of course the market share will be low.... but.. if they just make a thicker larger bar to increase handling....and happen to throw the EDFC factor in... im sure they could move a few hundred of these bars.. people purchase the rear bar to increase handling.. why not a front bar ??
11-20-2007, 07:21 PM
#46
Originally Posted by BLACKURA_NY
also.. on the sales aspect of it..
the bar doesnt JUST have to be for EDFC accomadation... maybe a larger before to decrease understeer or something... im sure it would sell..
if it was identical to stock, but just allowed for an EDFC, of course the market share will be low.... but.. if they just make a thicker larger bar to increase handling....and happen to throw the EDFC factor in... im sure they could move a few hundred of these bars.. people purchase the rear bar to increase handling.. why not a front bar ??
the bar doesnt JUST have to be for EDFC accomadation... maybe a larger before to decrease understeer or something... im sure it would sell..
if it was identical to stock, but just allowed for an EDFC, of course the market share will be low.... but.. if they just make a thicker larger bar to increase handling....and happen to throw the EDFC factor in... im sure they could move a few hundred of these bars.. people purchase the rear bar to increase handling.. why not a front bar ??
Trust me, the bar we are working on will be better than the stock on is just about every way.
11-22-2007, 12:46 AM
#49
Three Wheelin'
wouldn't a thicker/solid front strut bar increase understeer?? I wish more people than just myself wished for a rear strut bar made 
... One that can be tucked just in front of the rear deck like so:
But, I guess i'll just go back to just dreaming, good night!!
... One that can be tucked just in front of the rear deck like so:But, I guess i'll just go back to just dreaming, good night!!
12-05-2007, 09:58 PM
#50
Originally Posted by HQTL6SPD
wouldn't a thicker/solid front strut bar increase understeer?? I wish more people than just myself wished for a rear strut bar made ... One that can be tucked just in front of the rear deck like so:
But, I guess i'll just go back to just dreaming, good night!!
... One that can be tucked just in front of the rear deck like so:But, I guess i'll just go back to just dreaming, good night!!
You are thinking "sway bar" not "strut bar."
This rear bar would have little effect on chassis stiffness. Especially since you are bracing the trunk arms, not the actual chassis...
12-05-2007, 10:27 PM
#52
Originally Posted by MrHeeltoe
You are thinking "sway bar" not "strut bar."
This rear bar would have little effect on chassis stiffness. Especially since you are bracing the trunk arms, not the actual chassis...
This rear bar would have little effect on chassis stiffness. Especially since you are bracing the trunk arms, not the actual chassis...
12-06-2007, 07:20 AM
#53
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Kennedy
Nahh... He's thinking the rear strut bars common on trailing rear suspensions would be helpful. The bar he's drawn wold mount to the rear strut towers... but the back is pretty rigid, not sure it would do anything.
Your right about our cars though, the cross-bar behind the seat is enough I guess.
But then again, it would be cool to see someone try it out and feedback.
01-09-2008, 09:42 AM
#60
I am supposed to hear something by the end of the month, maybe around the 22nd. This should be pricing information.
Don't wait too long. Tein is raising suspension prices $30-$40 on Feb 1st! You can always get the sus now and the edfc later.
Marcus
Don't wait too long. Tein is raising suspension prices $30-$40 on Feb 1st! You can always get the sus now and the edfc later.
Marcus
01-09-2008, 10:59 AM
#61
the strut bar issue only affects gen3 cars-
gen2 thread jumper/readers can install EDFC with no problem.
gen2 thread jumper/readers can install EDFC with no problem.
01-09-2008, 03:31 PM
#63
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Sorry if this has been covered on this thread and i just missed it skimming through.
As heeltoe says the OEM bar does make it feel stiffer, but isnt critical. And like Blackura has said the greddy bar is just skinny. So i went ahead and took the trusty dremel to the OEM bar and cut away the area needed to clear the EDFC motors, and still retained TWO mounting points. Unlike the greddy bar w/out accord tophats.
Ive still got a couple minor details to work out. Mainly evening up the openings for to make the the same, and repainting the bar. Im not going for super performance with this, just want to fill the gap that is currently in the engine bay.
Keep a eye out for a thread ill post about it once completed.
As heeltoe says the OEM bar does make it feel stiffer, but isnt critical. And like Blackura has said the greddy bar is just skinny. So i went ahead and took the trusty dremel to the OEM bar and cut away the area needed to clear the EDFC motors, and still retained TWO mounting points. Unlike the greddy bar w/out accord tophats.
Ive still got a couple minor details to work out. Mainly evening up the openings for to make the the same, and repainting the bar. Im not going for super performance with this, just want to fill the gap that is currently in the engine bay.
Keep a eye out for a thread ill post about it once completed.
01-09-2008, 04:03 PM
#64
Sweet!
Yea, the car is fine w/o the bar, as alot of members have no bar w/ the EDFC installed.. but i am sure that the bar makes a difference, or it wouldnt be there. Whether or not the difference is HUGE, doesnt matter. i never skimp on my car, and i dont want to take away anything from it, only add !
Marcus, keep us posted buddy!
Yea, the car is fine w/o the bar, as alot of members have no bar w/ the EDFC installed.. but i am sure that the bar makes a difference, or it wouldnt be there. Whether or not the difference is HUGE, doesnt matter. i never skimp on my car, and i dont want to take away anything from it, only add !
Marcus, keep us posted buddy!
01-09-2008, 05:22 PM
#65
No offense to Marcus's efforts... I hope this comes to fruition for you guys, but...
I'll be in a Gen4 by the time this little issue is resolved.
Just install the greddy bar already.
Greddy bar is too thin? It's multi tube design makes it VERY strong. OEM bar is thin gauged sheetmetal. What make the OEM bar strong is the rigid design and numerous bends/welds. Just becasue its bigger doesn't mean it's any more solid. It weights about 8 ounces.
Cutting a mounting point form the sheetmetal significantly weakens the bar, based on the rigidity of the design. How's that better than the Greddy bar with Accord top hats (using both mounting points)?
I know of NO members that have EDFC and NO bar at all. Most folks that have talked about doing that have been warned of possible chassis flex causing windshield cracks (although I've never seen a report of that either). I know of 5 or so people with the Greddy bar off the top of my head:
Kennedy, drdamian, blnkypanman (sold), accuratein, keepinitclean,
It's tried and true... Why are you guys so afraid to drill a hole? To let this triviality hold up your suspension installation is silly.
I'll be in a Gen4 by the time this little issue is resolved.
Just install the greddy bar already.
Greddy bar is too thin? It's multi tube design makes it VERY strong. OEM bar is thin gauged sheetmetal. What make the OEM bar strong is the rigid design and numerous bends/welds. Just becasue its bigger doesn't mean it's any more solid. It weights about 8 ounces.
Cutting a mounting point form the sheetmetal significantly weakens the bar, based on the rigidity of the design. How's that better than the Greddy bar with Accord top hats (using both mounting points)?
I know of NO members that have EDFC and NO bar at all. Most folks that have talked about doing that have been warned of possible chassis flex causing windshield cracks (although I've never seen a report of that either). I know of 5 or so people with the Greddy bar off the top of my head:
Kennedy, drdamian, blnkypanman (sold), accuratein, keepinitclean,
It's tried and true... Why are you guys so afraid to drill a hole? To let this triviality hold up your suspension installation is silly.
01-09-2008, 05:48 PM
#66
^^ Well im sure to some of us, it brings peace of mind... i know it does for me...
there are some members w/o the bar... StyleZz101 (ssm ronjon tl) , jptl04, and a few others.. they said the car is fine w/o the bar, but i still wouldnt do that because of chasis flex and other problems.
Accord bar is a possibility, and better then hacking up the stock bar (dumb IMO).. but just maybe marcus can provide us with an affordable solid solution that bolts right on.. to me.. its worth $100~ or so...
there are some members w/o the bar... StyleZz101 (ssm ronjon tl) , jptl04, and a few others.. they said the car is fine w/o the bar, but i still wouldnt do that because of chasis flex and other problems.
Accord bar is a possibility, and better then hacking up the stock bar (dumb IMO).. but just maybe marcus can provide us with an affordable solid solution that bolts right on.. to me.. its worth $100~ or so...
01-09-2008, 08:23 PM
#69
Unless you are really pushing the car hard in the corners you wont notice the lack of upper bar because the Teins and set perfect keep the car pretty flat.
The bar, Marcus had someone develope and perfect it- replaces the OE bar and includes all the same mounting points for whatever is under a gen3 hood that clip to the bar.
In order to assure quality and ongoing production, he needed a name brand company to make them, not JoeBobs fixin-weldin and bait shop store round the corner~
So news that a price point has nearly been made, to be announced approx jan22, is great news, not a disappointment
The bar, Marcus had someone develope and perfect it- replaces the OE bar and includes all the same mounting points for whatever is under a gen3 hood that clip to the bar.
In order to assure quality and ongoing production, he needed a name brand company to make them, not JoeBobs fixin-weldin and bait shop store round the corner~
So news that a price point has nearly been made, to be announced approx jan22, is great news, not a disappointment
01-09-2008, 08:26 PM
#70
I would've gone w/ the greddy bar and accord top hats but I don't feel like dismounting my suspension, putting new tophats, then drilling a hole through the car lol =/ I hope to get this done by spring though, hopefully something will come out by then?
01-09-2008, 08:38 PM
#71
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Originally Posted by BLACKURA_NY
Accord bar is a possibility, and better then hacking up the stock bar (dumb IMO).. but just maybe marcus can provide us with an affordable solid solution that bolts right on.. to me.. its worth $100~ or so...
Not to start a interweb war, but may i ask how it is dumb? Still has two mounting holes just like the accord one, and being the OEM bar it still "Fits" under the engine bay covers.
01-09-2008, 10:23 PM
#72
01tl4tl...
I consider it a good thing too. This thing has been coming for a long time though (and it's still not here), and I'm merely advising others to NOT let this silly shortcoming stop them from enjoying a sporty suspension. Life's too short to wait for a product that will never be noticed in daily use... but a new suspension system will bring a smile at every ride. If you're really worried, the Greddy is tried and true.
If Marcus does come through, great. Swapping out the bar and front suspension is not hard. It's the rear that's a bitch with the backseat removal and all.
Because the Greddy mount points are mande from 3/16 plate steel about 4X thicker than the stamped sheetmetal of the OEM mount points... You really only NEED 2 points when those 2 points are attached to such beefy connections.
The stock bar achieves it's structural rigidity from the "bends and forms" in the mounting points -again which are flimsy sheet metal. You've now removed one of those points, weakening the bar.
If you push the car, now, I'd venture the bar is serving no purpose, those 2 left over mounting points are merely deforming (bending), back and forth in response to the dynamics of the chassis flex. Over time, after so many "flexes", the points will break...
This is simple engineering dynamics and materials science theory though. Maybe none of this is true, but my theory is founded in science and precedence.
There's more to structural integrity than the number of connections. Aluminum foil is not stronger than plate steel, even if it's secured in 4X as many locations.
With 5 minutes of clean dremelling, my engine covers went back on too.
And my Greddy bar is polished aluminum. Bling*
I consider it a good thing too. This thing has been coming for a long time though (and it's still not here), and I'm merely advising others to NOT let this silly shortcoming stop them from enjoying a sporty suspension. Life's too short to wait for a product that will never be noticed in daily use... but a new suspension system will bring a smile at every ride. If you're really worried, the Greddy is tried and true.
If Marcus does come through, great. Swapping out the bar and front suspension is not hard. It's the rear that's a bitch with the backseat removal and all.
Originally Posted by sT04Louis
Ouch,
Not to start a interweb war, but may i ask how it is dumb? Still has two mounting holes just like the accord one, and being the OEM bar it still "Fits" under the engine bay covers.
Not to start a interweb war, but may i ask how it is dumb? Still has two mounting holes just like the accord one, and being the OEM bar it still "Fits" under the engine bay covers.
The stock bar achieves it's structural rigidity from the "bends and forms" in the mounting points -again which are flimsy sheet metal. You've now removed one of those points, weakening the bar.
If you push the car, now, I'd venture the bar is serving no purpose, those 2 left over mounting points are merely deforming (bending), back and forth in response to the dynamics of the chassis flex. Over time, after so many "flexes", the points will break...
This is simple engineering dynamics and materials science theory though. Maybe none of this is true, but my theory is founded in science and precedence.
There's more to structural integrity than the number of connections. Aluminum foil is not stronger than plate steel, even if it's secured in 4X as many locations.
With 5 minutes of clean dremelling, my engine covers went back on too.
And my Greddy bar is polished aluminum. Bling*
01-09-2008, 10:51 PM
#73
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Kennedy
I understand that the "dome" that was at the mounting points of the OEM bar is what helped it be so rigid. But as i stated in my first post im not going for performance. And in no way to i advise someone to do the cutting i have done to MY strut bar if they plan on driving agressivly through turns. Im done doing that stuff in my car, too hard on it and ive already built up over 800$ in tickets driving like that. Thats 800$ away from, not into the car. So ive made the choice to keep the driving slow, and responsible.
When im done with my bar it will have the same paint scheme as my engine cover. This season its all about shows, last year was for trying to run with subies and evos on back roads.
So in closing, the OEM bar is perfect for what i need it to do. If the situation comes about that i need to avoid a road hazard id hope that the 1500$ in suspension work will do the trick.
Originally Posted by sT04Louis
.....Ive still got a couple minor details to work out. Mainly evening up the openings for to make the the same, and repainting the bar. Im not going for super performance with this, just want to fill the gap that is currently in the engine bay....
I understand that the "dome" that was at the mounting points of the OEM bar is what helped it be so rigid. But as i stated in my first post im not going for performance. And in no way to i advise someone to do the cutting i have done to MY strut bar if they plan on driving agressivly through turns. Im done doing that stuff in my car, too hard on it and ive already built up over 800$ in tickets driving like that. Thats 800$ away from, not into the car. So ive made the choice to keep the driving slow, and responsible.
When im done with my bar it will have the same paint scheme as my engine cover. This season its all about shows, last year was for trying to run with subies and evos on back roads.
So in closing, the OEM bar is perfect for what i need it to do. If the situation comes about that i need to avoid a road hazard id hope that the 1500$ in suspension work will do the trick.
01-09-2008, 11:02 PM
#74
~Da Nocturnal Cheetah~
Thread Starter
Damn Allon...whose thread is this? How could you forget I'm running barless with the EDFC dawwgggg?? HA Ha! Yeah, I haven't had a bar on for a while and no probs! I ain't chopping and I ain't drilling! So I am waiting on you Marcus - CHOP! CHOP!
01-10-2008, 12:13 AM
#75
my bad ray.. i forgot about you....
StLouis.. def. not a web-war, but basically what Kennedy said. since you've taken the bar off the car, you felt how light it is.. its kinda hollow flimsy metal, but its "solid" it terms that it doesnt flex with the car...
The Accord bar is definitely better, then hacking up your stock bar... but Kennedy, let me ask you this...
On the Accord bar, how many mounting points are supposed to link up, if it were to go on an accord, and how many link up on to our TL's, with Accord Top Hats?
I ask this, because , and correct me if im wrong, if the Greddy Accord bar is meant to link up to 4 bolts, and we only use, say 2... wouldnt that slightly weaken the structure/function of the Greddy Bar?
StLouis.. def. not a web-war, but basically what Kennedy said. since you've taken the bar off the car, you felt how light it is.. its kinda hollow flimsy metal, but its "solid" it terms that it doesnt flex with the car...
The Accord bar is definitely better, then hacking up your stock bar... but Kennedy, let me ask you this...
On the Accord bar, how many mounting points are supposed to link up, if it were to go on an accord, and how many link up on to our TL's, with Accord Top Hats?
I ask this, because , and correct me if im wrong, if the Greddy Accord bar is meant to link up to 4 bolts, and we only use, say 2... wouldnt that slightly weaken the structure/function of the Greddy Bar?
01-10-2008, 12:17 AM
#76
i'm also not going for "super performance" on my car, but, i like to drive freely and agressively on parkways @ night sometimes, and its nice to know that you havent compromised the structural design by sawing off parts of a bar or structrual bends/kinks, or not using all the correct mounting points. i doubt it will make you spin out of control for no reason, but its nice to know you have everything on the car nice and secure and tight.
01-10-2008, 07:56 AM
#77
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Originally Posted by BLACKURA_NY
i'm also not going for "super performance" on my car, but, i like to drive freely and agressively on parkways @ night sometimes, and its nice to know that you havent compromised the structural design by sawing off parts of a bar or structrual bends/kinks, or not using all the correct mounting points. i doubt it will make you spin out of control for no reason, but its nice to know you have everything on the car nice and secure and tight.
Much like darksom i have not had a strut bar since june 07. So the way i see it is, that even if ive ruined the integrity of the OEM bar and all it does now is sit there looking pretty i wont notice any difference in the way the car handles.
So i am in no way changing any handling properties of the car since the bar will just flex with the car, and ive had no handling problems without it for the past 8 months. So now when i open the hood ill have the OEM strut bar filling the gap, in turn making me happy with the way the engine bay looks, and ive been happy with the way it has driven since i dumped it so every thing is good.
01-10-2008, 12:41 PM
#78
Originally Posted by Kennedy
No offense to Marcus's efforts... I hope this comes to fruition for you guys, but...
I'll be in a Gen4 by the time this little issue is resolved.
Just install the greddy bar already.
Greddy bar is too thin? It's multi tube design makes it VERY strong. OEM bar is thin gauged sheetmetal. What make the OEM bar strong is the rigid design and numerous bends/welds. Just becasue its bigger doesn't mean it's any more solid. It weights about 8 ounces.
Cutting a mounting point form the sheetmetal significantly weakens the bar, based on the rigidity of the design. How's that better than the Greddy bar with Accord top hats (using both mounting points)?
I know of NO members that have EDFC and NO bar at all. Most folks that have talked about doing that have been warned of possible chassis flex causing windshield cracks (although I've never seen a report of that either). I know of 5 or so people with the Greddy bar off the top of my head:
Kennedy, drdamian, blnkypanman (sold), accuratein, keepinitclean,
It's tried and true... Why are you guys so afraid to drill a hole? To let this triviality hold up your suspension installation is silly.
I'll be in a Gen4 by the time this little issue is resolved.
Just install the greddy bar already.
Greddy bar is too thin? It's multi tube design makes it VERY strong. OEM bar is thin gauged sheetmetal. What make the OEM bar strong is the rigid design and numerous bends/welds. Just becasue its bigger doesn't mean it's any more solid. It weights about 8 ounces.
Cutting a mounting point form the sheetmetal significantly weakens the bar, based on the rigidity of the design. How's that better than the Greddy bar with Accord top hats (using both mounting points)?
I know of NO members that have EDFC and NO bar at all. Most folks that have talked about doing that have been warned of possible chassis flex causing windshield cracks (although I've never seen a report of that either). I know of 5 or so people with the Greddy bar off the top of my head:
Kennedy, drdamian, blnkypanman (sold), accuratein, keepinitclean,
It's tried and true... Why are you guys so afraid to drill a hole? To let this triviality hold up your suspension installation is silly.
The greddy bar itself is plenty strong, but I am not completely convinced it is as good or any better than the stock bar. The thickness of material is replaced with the shape of the endplates. The greddy bar is not designed in a way that mounts to the chassis as the oem bar. IMO, that is a weak link in the greddy bar. Is it a fact? Dunno. Never tested it.
Is the greddy bar better than cutting the stock bar? I believe so, because then the thickness of material takes over since the oem bar shape has changed. As you mentioned.
Should one wait on getting the EDFC installed because they don't like the greddy bar? Probably. Only if they are performance oriented drivers.
Is cutting the stock bar a viable temporary solution in lieu of getting something better. Yes.
Is it a good pernant solution? For performance? No.
For people that don't drive hard? Yes.
Should one nit pick the question of whether the bar does something or not? No. A strut bar definitely does enhance the performance of the car.
Will everyone notice the difference? No.
Is there one solid answer to give everyone? No.
Marcus
01-10-2008, 03:23 PM
#79
Originally Posted by MrHeeltoe
The greddy bar itself is plenty strong, but I am not completely convinced it is as good or any better than the stock bar. The thickness of material is replaced with the shape of the endplates. The greddy bar is not designed in a way that mounts to the chassis as the oem bar. IMO, that is a weak link in the greddy bar. Is it a fact? Dunno. Never tested it.
The only difference between them is the missing 2 mounting points of the Greddy bar, and that 2 of the Accord top hat mouting studs are in a slightly different orientation as the OEM -requiring the hole to be drilled on each side to accomodate.
If somone would weld a ring onto the mounting bracket of the Greddy bar and drill two holes in the ring so you could use all three OEM mounting points, none of this discussion over "integritiy" would be in question... even if doing so added no additional strength.
01-10-2008, 03:39 PM
#80
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Greddy for teh win. 