Rear Toe way out of spec, lets brainstorm!
05-21-2013, 11:25 AM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
Rear Toe way out of spec, lets brainstorm!
Hey guys, hoping I can steal some knowledge from you all. I've done a fair amount of reading, but I'd like to brainstorm with the community to see if some other information comes about.
My 2005 TL base progress thread:
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...=851050&page=6
Disclosure: I'm familiar enough with what Toe and Camber are, but not what causes it.
I recently did some suspension work on my car and now my toe is way out of spec:
Firestone claims the rear toe adjustment bolt is maxed in an attempt to put toe back in spec. Here's the changes I made before having a toe problem:
From:
To:
I still need to measure the height of my car after the drop. I'm guessing an approx 1.25" drop. However, from what I've been able to conclude after reading numerous threads, my toe shouldn't be so far out of spec that the OEM adjustable toe arm can't fix with the amount of camber that I have. Others have had their cars lower more than mine without needing a camber kit, and haven't had this kind of toe problem.
I'm not very familiar with the geometry of the TL's suspension, so here are my questions:
It's already been recommended to me to 1) go to another place for another alignment and have them "unload tension on all suspension bolt rubber bushings" and 2) purchase the 2 arm lower kit.
My goal here is to talk about other possible causes to this, and diagnoses for alternative solutions rather than going with a shotgun approach and buying a handful of parts to tackle the problem.
Sorry for the novel, and thanks in advance!
My 2005 TL base progress thread:
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...=851050&page=6
Disclosure: I'm familiar enough with what Toe and Camber are, but not what causes it.
I recently did some suspension work on my car and now my toe is way out of spec:
Firestone claims the rear toe adjustment bolt is maxed in an attempt to put toe back in spec. Here's the changes I made before having a toe problem:
From:
- Stock shocks/springs at stock height
- Stock 17" wheels, with 245/45/17 tires
- Stock/OEM endlinks
- Aftermarket sway bar set on (what we're calling) "comfort" setting (more info below)
To:
- Installed Tein SA's, followed instruction book by leaving 1" of thread from the bottom on the body. Dampening currently set at 11rear/10front.
- New 18" wheels, with 235/40/18 tires.
- During the install of the coils, we had to replace the rear endlinks with Moogs.
- I'm not sure which sway bar I have (no label, branding, kinda rusty, installed by previous owner), but it's not stock. Below are example pictures of 2 different kinds of sway bars (H&R, Progress) that looked like the one I have. It's got 2 adjustment settings and during the install of the Tein SAs, we moved the endlinks from the red holes (calling it "comfort" setting) to the green holes (calling it "sport" setting):
I still need to measure the height of my car after the drop. I'm guessing an approx 1.25" drop. However, from what I've been able to conclude after reading numerous threads, my toe shouldn't be so far out of spec that the OEM adjustable toe arm can't fix with the amount of camber that I have. Others have had their cars lower more than mine without needing a camber kit, and haven't had this kind of toe problem.
I'm not very familiar with the geometry of the TL's suspension, so here are my questions:
- Is it possible that the new endlinks would cause the toe problem?
- Or how about adjusting the sway bar settings?
- How does adjusting/fixing camber allow for toe to be further adjusted?
- Is there anything else that would cause that much toe?
It's already been recommended to me to 1) go to another place for another alignment and have them "unload tension on all suspension bolt rubber bushings" and 2) purchase the 2 arm lower kit.
My goal here is to talk about other possible causes to this, and diagnoses for alternative solutions rather than going with a shotgun approach and buying a handful of parts to tackle the problem.
Sorry for the novel, and thanks in advance!
Last edited by Shoeface; 05-21-2013 at 11:36 AM.
05-21-2013, 12:06 PM
#2
:what:
With the lower 2 bar camber kit, you can adjust toe and camber as both bars are adjuatable.
With the upper single bar you can adjust camber. As you bring the camber back towards a positive number it will naturally toe in.
With the upper single bar you can adjust camber. As you bring the camber back towards a positive number it will naturally toe in.
05-21-2013, 02:39 PM
#3
Racer
Thread Starter
So a 2 bar camber kit for the rear would fix my toe problem? Is there something special about a 2 bar camber kit that allows it to fix toe that the OEM toe arm can't do?
05-21-2013, 02:55 PM
#4
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iTrader: (33)
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justnspace (05-21-2013)
05-21-2013, 03:35 PM
#5
Racer
Thread Starter
Guess I didn't elaborate enough on my concern for some.
I understand a camber kit with TWO (2) arms can adjust camber with 1 arm and toe with the other arm. From factory, there is only one adjustable arm and that is for toe.
Unless you're telling me that the toe arm that comes with said 2 arm camber kit is more adjustable than the OEM toe arm (since my toe arms are already maxed out on both sides), then I DON'T believe getting a camber kit to adjust an average camber of -1.9 to ~0.0 will also fix an average toe of -0.3 to ~0. Maybe to a toe of -0.2 or even -0.15, but not to within spec. My concern is that my toe is so far out (maybe caused by something other than lowering my car no more than 1.5") that adjusting camber with a kit to get camber within spec will still not put my toe in spec. Then I'd have to continue to buy/install parts to fix toe. I've read about some others' cars with similar setups, more of a drop, and no need for a camber kit have had less problem with toe. I'm hoping one of them will post here.
So I will ask again:
Unless you're telling me that the toe arm that comes with said 2 arm camber kit is more adjustable than the OEM toe arm (since my toe arms are already maxed out on both sides), then I DON'T believe getting a camber kit to adjust an average camber of -1.9 to ~0.0 will also fix an average toe of -0.3 to ~0. Maybe to a toe of -0.2 or even -0.15, but not to within spec. My concern is that my toe is so far out (maybe caused by something other than lowering my car no more than 1.5") that adjusting camber with a kit to get camber within spec will still not put my toe in spec. Then I'd have to continue to buy/install parts to fix toe. I've read about some others' cars with similar setups, more of a drop, and no need for a camber kit have had less problem with toe. I'm hoping one of them will post here.
So I will ask again:
- Is there something special about said 2 arm camber kit that allows its toe arm to adjust for toe more/better/further than the OEM toe arm?
- What other options do I have other than a 2 arm camber kit that may or may not get my toe in spec?
05-21-2013, 03:45 PM
#6
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iTrader: (33)
you are way over analyzing this.
just get the ingalls rear camber kit and call it a day.
just get the ingalls rear camber kit and call it a day.
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Wacker (05-22-2013)
05-21-2013, 04:53 PM
#7
You can never over-analyze(lol pun,,) about your own car..
1. The 2 arm kit (aka Ingalls) it does adjust more/further but it is NOT, i repeat NOT better.
2. see below
before you get brainwashed by all those "i love ingalls" review.
read
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-tires-wheels-suspension-97/j-power-camber-kit-review-864705/
and
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-tires-wheels-suspension-97/rear-toe-keep-getting-slightly-out-after-ingalls-camber-kit-885207/
the first link contains how to make a ingalls style arm with no adverse effects that all ingalls have. (reusing OEM bushings)
2. see below
before you get brainwashed by all those "i love ingalls" review.
read
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-tires-wheels-suspension-97/j-power-camber-kit-review-864705/
and
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-tires-wheels-suspension-97/rear-toe-keep-getting-slightly-out-after-ingalls-camber-kit-885207/
the first link contains how to make a ingalls style arm with no adverse effects that all ingalls have. (reusing OEM bushings)
Last edited by 4drviper; 05-21-2013 at 04:56 PM.
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Shoeface (05-22-2013)
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05-21-2013, 05:03 PM
#8
Moderator
iTrader: (7)
Yes the ingalls one will give you MORE adjustment than factory...the factory toe adjustment is through a tapered bolt and washer, the ingalls one can adjust the length of the arm. just a wild guess, but perhaps try relaxing your bushings as maybe you had them tightened before putting the load on them. probably not the cause of your problem but still smart to do it. Something in your suspension must be worn out badly or maybe your car has been in an accident before.
Last edited by paperboy42190; 05-21-2013 at 05:05 PM.
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Shoeface (05-22-2013)
05-21-2013, 08:43 PM
#9
2014 Jeep SRT
Notice how the shaft of the bolt is off center from the head of the bolt? When you spin the bolt, it gives an in/out toe adjustment, but only within a very limited range. With the Ingalls kit, you're adjusting the toe within a very large +/- range by lengthening/shortening the toe arms, which means you can virtually correct any toe abnormalities.
Like it was mentioned before, just get the Ingalls kit and call it a day. No need to over analyze it.
05-21-2013, 09:23 PM
#10
please don't "just get" ingall's kit...... no offense to poster but some people including me don't appreciate the extra compliance of ingall's kit, which the suspesion was not designed to have.
05-21-2013, 10:20 PM
#11
If you get the upper camber kit (1 arm), and the rear camber gets adjusted to spec, the toe adjustment (factory) will now be able to adjust within the spec.
As you lower your vehicle, the wheels will have more negative camber (facing inwards towards the vehicle), when the camber changes, it proportionally changes the toe as well. So when you lower your vehicle and negative camber increases, your toe will also increase, and toe out. The reason is that as the spindle angles in towards the vehicle, and the toe arm adjustment doesn't change, the arm length will "push" the most forward part of the spindle outwards, thus causing a toe-out scenario.
If you put in rear camber kits (upper arms), and adjust them to the proper spec for oem camber, the toe will come back in, and will be able to be adjusted within the factory toe spec.
The reason I know this, is I'm and automotive service technician (Canadian red seal), and have personally done this with my TL. Once I installed camber kits, there was no issue getting my toe in spec with FACTORY toe adjustment bolts, once my camber was at the factory setting.
In our schooling to become a technician we spend a lot of time on alignments, and I do about 1 a day for a collision centre next to the shop I work at, I'm very fluent with alignment angles. The one thing we learn that is very important, is you always adjust caster, then camber, then toe, because caster affects your camber( in most cases), and camber affects your toe. So in order to solve your toe issue, you first need to deal with your camber issue, and the toe will fix itself.
Also for the front I would suggest getting the camber adjustable balljoints, although under -2 degrees camber will not significantly wear tires, it will eventually, and it also reduces your contact patch on the pavement.
Your sway bar adjustment has nothing to do with alignment angles. The sport setting basically makes it more responsive, and firmer in corners, by having the hole closer, the stab. Link will move the bar quicker/more drastically, and will directly reflect that on the other sides suspension. The further hole does the opposite, and makes the response of your sway bar slower/less drastic. The way your sway bar works, is as the one side suspension compresses, it transmits through the sway bar to the other side, and mirrors the movement; ex. LR suspension compresses in corner, sway bar forces RR suspension to also compress, causing better grip and handling, and less body roll in a corner. It will do the same with suspension extension. That's why different thicknesses of sway bars have different results, the thinner the bar, the less movement is transmitted, the thicker the bar, the more movement is transmitted and the opposite side will move closer to the same as the side under load/or extending.
As you lower your vehicle, the wheels will have more negative camber (facing inwards towards the vehicle), when the camber changes, it proportionally changes the toe as well. So when you lower your vehicle and negative camber increases, your toe will also increase, and toe out. The reason is that as the spindle angles in towards the vehicle, and the toe arm adjustment doesn't change, the arm length will "push" the most forward part of the spindle outwards, thus causing a toe-out scenario.
If you put in rear camber kits (upper arms), and adjust them to the proper spec for oem camber, the toe will come back in, and will be able to be adjusted within the factory toe spec.
The reason I know this, is I'm and automotive service technician (Canadian red seal), and have personally done this with my TL. Once I installed camber kits, there was no issue getting my toe in spec with FACTORY toe adjustment bolts, once my camber was at the factory setting.
In our schooling to become a technician we spend a lot of time on alignments, and I do about 1 a day for a collision centre next to the shop I work at, I'm very fluent with alignment angles. The one thing we learn that is very important, is you always adjust caster, then camber, then toe, because caster affects your camber( in most cases), and camber affects your toe. So in order to solve your toe issue, you first need to deal with your camber issue, and the toe will fix itself.
Also for the front I would suggest getting the camber adjustable balljoints, although under -2 degrees camber will not significantly wear tires, it will eventually, and it also reduces your contact patch on the pavement.
Your sway bar adjustment has nothing to do with alignment angles. The sport setting basically makes it more responsive, and firmer in corners, by having the hole closer, the stab. Link will move the bar quicker/more drastically, and will directly reflect that on the other sides suspension. The further hole does the opposite, and makes the response of your sway bar slower/less drastic. The way your sway bar works, is as the one side suspension compresses, it transmits through the sway bar to the other side, and mirrors the movement; ex. LR suspension compresses in corner, sway bar forces RR suspension to also compress, causing better grip and handling, and less body roll in a corner. It will do the same with suspension extension. That's why different thicknesses of sway bars have different results, the thinner the bar, the less movement is transmitted, the thicker the bar, the more movement is transmitted and the opposite side will move closer to the same as the side under load/or extending.
05-22-2013, 12:22 AM
#12
^ that's good to know. I haven't measured where the ball joint exactly pivots relative to the "center" of rear knuckle, but alas, you've done it. It looks like it should work.
So unless the car has suspension damage, there's no need to replace OEM toe arm with adjustable one, correct?
PS : can you do my alignments when I go to canada?
lol
So unless the car has suspension damage, there's no need to replace OEM toe arm with adjustable one, correct?
PS : can you do my alignments when I go to canada?
lol
05-22-2013, 08:56 AM
#15
2014 Jeep SRT
05-22-2013, 09:05 AM
#16
Three Wheelin'
05-22-2013, 09:13 AM
#17
BANNED
iTrader: (33)
OP, please "just get" the ingalls kit. it was made for our cars for the above mentioned reasons and will work just fine.
05-22-2013, 11:29 AM
#18
Racer
Thread Starter
Yes the ingalls one will give you MORE adjustment than factory...the factory toe adjustment is through a tapered bolt and washer, the ingalls one can adjust the length of the arm. just a wild guess, but perhaps try relaxing your bushings as maybe you had them tightened before putting the load on them. probably not the cause of your problem but still smart to do it. Something in your suspension must be worn out badly or maybe your car has been in an accident before.
Yes, that is exactly what we're telling you. The oem toe adjustments are done with "toe bolts" that look something like this:
Notice how the shaft of the bolt is off center from the head of the bolt? When you spin the bolt, it gives an in/out toe adjustment, but only within a very limited range. With the Ingalls kit, you're adjusting the toe within a very large +/- range by lengthening/shortening the toe arms, which means you can virtually correct any toe abnormalities.
Notice how the shaft of the bolt is off center from the head of the bolt? When you spin the bolt, it gives an in/out toe adjustment, but only within a very limited range. With the Ingalls kit, you're adjusting the toe within a very large +/- range by lengthening/shortening the toe arms, which means you can virtually correct any toe abnormalities.
If you get the upper camber kit (1 arm), and the rear camber gets adjusted to spec, the toe adjustment (factory) will now be able to adjust within the spec.
As you lower your vehicle, the wheels will have more negative camber (facing inwards towards the vehicle), when the camber changes, it proportionally changes the toe as well. So when you lower your vehicle and negative camber increases, your toe will also increase, and toe out. The reason is that as the spindle angles in towards the vehicle, and the toe arm adjustment doesn't change, the arm length will "push" the most forward part of the spindle outwards, thus causing a toe-out scenario.
If you put in rear camber kits (upper arms), and adjust them to the proper spec for oem camber, the toe will come back in, and will be able to be adjusted within the factory toe spec.
The reason I know this, is I'm and automotive service technician (Canadian red seal), and have personally done this with my TL. Once I installed camber kits, there was no issue getting my toe in spec with FACTORY toe adjustment bolts, once my camber was at the factory setting.
In our schooling to become a technician we spend a lot of time on alignments, and I do about 1 a day for a collision centre next to the shop I work at, I'm very fluent with alignment angles. The one thing we learn that is very important, is you always adjust caster, then camber, then toe, because caster affects your camber( in most cases), and camber affects your toe. So in order to solve your toe issue, you first need to deal with your camber issue, and the toe will fix itself.
Also for the front I would suggest getting the camber adjustable balljoints, although under -2 degrees camber will not significantly wear tires, it will eventually, and it also reduces your contact patch on the pavement.
Your sway bar adjustment has nothing to do with alignment angles. The sport setting basically makes it more responsive, and firmer in corners, by having the hole closer, the stab. Link will move the bar quicker/more drastically, and will directly reflect that on the other sides suspension. The further hole does the opposite, and makes the response of your sway bar slower/less drastic. The way your sway bar works, is as the one side suspension compresses, it transmits through the sway bar to the other side, and mirrors the movement; ex. LR suspension compresses in corner, sway bar forces RR suspension to also compress, causing better grip and handling, and less body roll in a corner. It will do the same with suspension extension. That's why different thicknesses of sway bars have different results, the thinner the bar, the less movement is transmitted, the thicker the bar, the more movement is transmitted and the opposite side will move closer to the same as the side under load/or extending.
As you lower your vehicle, the wheels will have more negative camber (facing inwards towards the vehicle), when the camber changes, it proportionally changes the toe as well. So when you lower your vehicle and negative camber increases, your toe will also increase, and toe out. The reason is that as the spindle angles in towards the vehicle, and the toe arm adjustment doesn't change, the arm length will "push" the most forward part of the spindle outwards, thus causing a toe-out scenario.
If you put in rear camber kits (upper arms), and adjust them to the proper spec for oem camber, the toe will come back in, and will be able to be adjusted within the factory toe spec.
The reason I know this, is I'm and automotive service technician (Canadian red seal), and have personally done this with my TL. Once I installed camber kits, there was no issue getting my toe in spec with FACTORY toe adjustment bolts, once my camber was at the factory setting.
In our schooling to become a technician we spend a lot of time on alignments, and I do about 1 a day for a collision centre next to the shop I work at, I'm very fluent with alignment angles. The one thing we learn that is very important, is you always adjust caster, then camber, then toe, because caster affects your camber( in most cases), and camber affects your toe. So in order to solve your toe issue, you first need to deal with your camber issue, and the toe will fix itself.
Also for the front I would suggest getting the camber adjustable balljoints, although under -2 degrees camber will not significantly wear tires, it will eventually, and it also reduces your contact patch on the pavement.
Your sway bar adjustment has nothing to do with alignment angles. The sport setting basically makes it more responsive, and firmer in corners, by having the hole closer, the stab. Link will move the bar quicker/more drastically, and will directly reflect that on the other sides suspension. The further hole does the opposite, and makes the response of your sway bar slower/less drastic. The way your sway bar works, is as the one side suspension compresses, it transmits through the sway bar to the other side, and mirrors the movement; ex. LR suspension compresses in corner, sway bar forces RR suspension to also compress, causing better grip and handling, and less body roll in a corner. It will do the same with suspension extension. That's why different thicknesses of sway bars have different results, the thinner the bar, the less movement is transmitted, the thicker the bar, the more movement is transmitted and the opposite side will move closer to the same as the side under load/or extending.
2. see below
before you get brainwashed by all those "i love ingalls" review.
read
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=864705
and
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=885207
the first link contains how to make a ingalls style arm with no adverse effects that all ingalls have. (reusing OEM bushings)
before you get brainwashed by all those "i love ingalls" review.
read
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=864705
and
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=885207
the first link contains how to make a ingalls style arm with no adverse effects that all ingalls have. (reusing OEM bushings)
Thank you all for the help, I think I got enough info for now. Sorry for ignoring the "just buy this and be done with it" suggestions. I like to know why something is wrong, what caused it, how to fix it, and why the fix will work before applying said fix just because somebody told me to "just do it".
05-23-2013, 10:49 AM
#21
No problem at all. Yeah I kind of got that impression too. Had my car up on the hoist yesterday to try on some wheel spacers, with my toe on spec, and my camber on spec, I still have about half the factory adjustment to work with for toe. So IMO no real need for a toe kit unless you are running lots of camber.
05-24-2013, 03:40 AM
#22
But, I wouldn't be so hating on ingalls if they came with spherical bearing TOE LINK to begin with.
I'm just glad OP is aware of the goods and bads of it.
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