bluenoser

Sorry for the long post, but I believe this is a problem that takes a little time to become apparent - unless you travel with passengers and luggage.
There is a geometry problem affecting all 3rd Generation TLs that will cause the rear tires to wear out (or wear faster than the fronts).
I first found this when I travelled 4,400 miles, carrying four adults and luggage, and wore out two sets of rear tires in the process.
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...9&page=2&pp=25
My dealer checked my alignment and, although it was within specs, set it to the center of the specification. I should note that I've got a very obliging dealer, who then installed a new set of tires.
In the 6,000 miles since, the car has been driven exclusively by my wife with no passengers or load - with the exception of one 1,00 mile trip with four passengers. This was enough to cause excessive wear to the rear tires (HPT). Fronts 9/32, rears 4/32.
I took the car back to the dealer to find out what's wrong.
After inspecting my car they said there was nothing wrong whatsoever, so they called Acura Technical Support who said they were aware of a geometry problem that caused excessive total toe in when the rear suspension is compressed. They suggested a comprimise setting of .09" total toe. Mine is .1" empty and 1.30" (this is over 14times what it should be) with five passengers - no luggage. This is excessive toe and will cause tires to wear very fast.
This problem will affect every 04/05 TL with factory rear alignment settings.
It is very noticeable for anyone who carrys four passengers/ luggage (or similar load) and takes a trip of more than 1,000 miles.
Those who travel light probably won't notice that the rears have worn slightly more than the fronts (and by the time they're rotated it appears that the tires are just wearing quickly - after all they're performance tires and supposed to wear quickly). Few people actually check the rear tires of a front driver for wear, which makes this defect go somewhat unnoticed.
This is bound to be noticed by average drivers more than aggressive drivers, since tire life (or lack thereof) is almost a badge of honor for fast drivers.
At this point I still don't have my car back to see what the final outcome is, but I suspect Acura will have to issue a total recall to fix this issue.

Ron A

Thanks for the post. We were all wondering at the outcome of your problem and its solution. Now we know.

A total recall would be nice but don't hold your breath. If Honda/Acura acts as it has done in the past, they will not admit any wrong doing but will act on an individual case-by-case basis. Think of the cost of modifying all the TL's out there. I'm sure Honda has.

This looks like a prime candidate for the 3G Garage.

Ron A

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neuronbob

This is a great post. Thanks for the information, blunoser. I agree this belongs in the 3G Garage. Please continue to keep us posted.

need4spd

Blunoser,

Why is the car back in the shop, did the same thing happen again or are you just pushing the issue?

It is a very intereting find and appreciate the hard work in keeping on top of it.

Please let us know what you find!

Thnaks!!

bluenoser

Ron, I think Acura will have to deal with this one more seriously since there's a handling/ safety issue here as well. I didn't mention it but when travelling in a straight line (with passengers) the rear tires will steer the car if you hit a rolling section of road which places uneven loads on the rear tires.
Say you've loaded the left rear tire, the rear end moves right making the front of the car point left. In order to stay in your lane, you have to make a right turn steering correction.
You may recall there were a couple of professional testers (C&D was one) who commented on strange or twitchy handling. I believe they were going fast enough to compress the rear suspension, in their tests, and discovered the effects of this dramatic toe in change.

bluenoser

It's in because it wore out the third set of rear tires.
In the 6,000 miles since, the car has been driven exclusively by my wife with no passengers or load - with the exception of one 1,00 mile trip with four passengers. This was enough to cause excessive wear to the rear tires (HPT). Fronts 9/32, rears 4/32.
I took the car back to the dealer to find out what's wrong.
It was almost unnoticeable until the 1,000 mile trip with four passengers.

rets

Great update. Since you posted this in Dec, I started to check my tires wear frequently, especially the rear set. Luckily, in my PVC & TU2 EL42s and Falken 512s, I haven't seen anything like that. I got 3 long trips (more than 3k miles with two passengers and 150 lb luggage) with each different type of tires, fortunately, I haven't seen any unreasonable wears yet.


Thanks for your perserverance at finding out the causes and reasons.

rets

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Treblig

Wow. What does this mean for A-Spec'ers and those with 18, 19 and 20 inch wheels and tires. Those tires aren't cheap!

Xpditor

Fine with me to leave it here. No problems. You might consider copying it to Wheels and Tires but that would have two threads running on same topic and the replies would be split up.

neuronbob

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OnefastTL448

iTrader: (1)

I am so glad I read this, Just about to switch back to my stock tires for winter, I was driving in the rain the other night and was all over the road for a sec I thought I had a flat, The whole summer I checked the front tires often because it was a front wheel drive car. My summer tires are toyo proxies ts-1 19 inch wheels, I had them put on the car at 7,500 miles I now have 16K on the nose, So I looked at the back wheels today and guess what Its UNREAL TOTALLY BALD almost like Nascar Track TIRES? I could not belive me eyes, I know toyos go quick but my fronts still have 30 % left in them and my rears are total racing slicks now. I do have the a-spec suspension so I wonder if this is affecting me to. Bluenoser let me know what the deal did for you did it fix the problem? I have never ever seen tires like this on a Front wheel drive car, Thanks for this post and any help will be appreciated.

Xpditor

I lost my Mega Mod decoder ring so this will have to do...Rets' idea

stevenr

I have the original PVC EL42s, which I am trying to get replaced. THey definitely have a significant vibration, especially since it is getting cooler outside.

I am very particular about my tire pressure, balance and rotation. I noticed that my rear tires have significantly more wear than my front tires. Since this is a front drive car, and I have rotated my tires once, I attributed this to some aggressive test driving. I purchased my 6-sp with 350 miles on it. I personally put at least 60 miles on it driving the car two different times before I bought it.

THe wear is so significant that I keep asking myself, how the heck did they wear out those front tires so much in less than 300 miles compared to the rear tires. I have been purposely not rotating the tires again to help even out the wear. It seems like this strategy is actually backwards and I should put the tires with more tread in the back to help even the wear. Problem is that this is counter-intuitive to me since you want the tires with the most tread on your drive wheels, which is the front.

So..... let me understand. In order to get the most mileage out of my tires I need to put the tires with the LEAST amount of tread on the DRIVE WHEELS and reduce my bad weather handling accordingly?.

I am in sales and I drive this car a lot, especially in bad weather. Yes, we do get snow in MD during the winter and I do travel to Western MD quite a bit. I was hoping the FWD would be an asset here, I guess it may be a liability in this car with the junk tires that Acura installed. Now I am not so enthusiastic about putting really good tires on this car. I have 13k miles and I am almost to the tread bars on the rear tires and I do not drive like an idiot!

rets

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Brokedoc

When there is a significant difference in remaining tread (like replacing 2 new tires only), the tires with more tread should ALWAYS go on the REAR regardless of drive wheel. In a nutshell, you need more tread to keep the rear planted when turning. Otherwise, you'll lose control of the car.

Most informative and technical explanation from Tire Rack

In case you need more proof:
Goodyear FAQ
Costco FAQ
Uniroyal FAQ
Discount Tire Ctr FAQ

Many more links to back this up.

Ron A

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stevenr

Thanks for the info. Learn something everyday. That's why we all contribute to this excellent thread.

Oswald Vater

Just wondered if this tire wear problem is something that Acura is taking care of or the tire manufacturer?Is it a problem just for those who have the OM's (EL42) or does it involve all tires regardless of make? Sorry if this seems redundant: just trying to clarify a pattern if there is one.

Treblig

Would the Comptech Camber Adjusters help?

bluenoser

To my knowledge this problem has nothing to do with tires, it's the car. When you have a total toe in of 1.3" your tires are being dragged along the road. That is what happens when you have the factory rear alignment settings and you are carrying a load in your car.
This was measured by my dealer on my car with 5 passengers on board.
If you drive with one person on smooth roads you won't notice this problem, but this toe in change, as the suspension goes through it's range of motion, affects all 3rd gen TLs.
It was explained that you need some increase in rear toe in to prevent oversteer, but 1.3" is way off the charts.

Oswald Vater

Thanks, Bluenoser. If this turns out to be a real consistent problem regarding the tire wear, I hope Acura does something about it or they could possibly face a class-action suit.

mlbellante

Thanks bluenoser! I recently took a 1500 mile trip with four passengers and their luggage. My stock tires had 30k on them. By the end of the trip my rears were down to the wear bars. I was wondering what the heck was going on. Acura needs to fix this!

pettydw

Acura replaced my rear tires and reset the alignment to almost no toe-in (but just within spec tolerance) after 8K miles (about 5k of which were family road trips). I also filled the fuel tank prior to them getting the car to bias in favor of tire life. So far, in the 5k miles since and a couple more family road trips, no unusual tire wear (maybe 1/32 gone) on the rears. Also, the car still handles fine unloaded.

bluenoser

That appears to be what my dealer is going to do. Actually they're going to put one person in the front and one in the back and align the rears dead straight. They said that Acura tec services really don't know what to do, but the dealer expects a revision to both the front and back suspension to correct this problem.
My dealer has been very good in dealing with this problem and they're replacing my tires with Pilot AS.
Interestingly there was a 6MT parked beside mine, at the dealership, with the rears worn down to the sub layers of the cap.

jim.arrows

Funny you posted that, I was thinking of an article I read recently in either MT or C&D about this exact same thing. They had someone from Michelin that explained the physics, etc, etc, but what it really came down to was that more tread on the rears keeps the ass end from coming around on you. Thanks for the links Brokedoc...

stevenr

I have a 6-sp and I travel with either one or two people in the front - mostly just myself. The only rear passenger I have is my 40lb 4 year old that I take to school 3 days/week - about 10 miles total distance.

So since I am essentially unloaded all of the time, I do not understand why I have such excessive rear tire tread wear.

I will get my rear alignment checked.

Am I the only one that has this issue and travels mostly unloaded?

bluenoser

stevenr, I believe that the potential for excessive rear tire wear is inherent in all 3rd gen TLs. According to my dealer, Acura tec serv say the geometry of the rear suspension was designed to dramatically increase rear toe in (during rear suspension compression) to aid in handling - essentially it causes the rear end to move in the direction of the turn and it also prevents the car from oversteering.
The net effect of this geometry is a total toe in of 1.3" when the car is loaded equivalent to five people. This condition will literally rip the rubber off the rear tires in very short order.
Anyone who drives in a manner that causes the rear suspension to travel through it's range will also experience excessive rear tire wear - to a lesser degree than a loaded car.
Most people will miss this because they are used to checking the front tires for wear.
The only cars that seem to have less wear are ones that either have their rear tires slightly toed out or at the minimum toe in specification AND drive on very smooth roads.
I think Acura really missed this one - in it's design for my needs for a touring car - since I have gone through three sets of rear tires in just 13,000 miles and my car has been checked several times to be perfectly aligned.

terse

damn mathematicians..

stevenr

Well, I just went to the "Stealer" and my rear toe was very close to the 0.08 spec. IT measured 0.12. I am not sure what the tolerance allowable on the 0.08 spec is, but basically the dealer told me that they do not warrant the tires and too bad.

Basically, since the tires are wearing smoothly, I dealer implied that I caused the excess wear by driving aggressively and spinning the tires - which is BS. If I drive that way than I expect to pay the price, but since I don't I take offense to someone implying that I do, eventhough I assured them that this was not the case.

My big issue with Acura is the following:
They claim there is no issue with the tires/suspension. The dealer even made the claim that they have NOT replaced any tires on Acura TLs - this seems unlikely. If I was driving a Ferrari with HiPo summer tires, then I could accept a 15K mile tread life, but I am driving a Honda (my first and most likely my last, if this issue does not go away).

I am concerned that if I spend the $800 to replace with Michelin Pilot Sport A/S and these wear out in 15K miles like the Bridgestones, my significant other will be p*ssed off and so will I. I do not expect to have to replace tires every 8 months.

After the dealer, I went to Kingdom Tire (NTB) and had them look at it. They concurred with me that the rear tires should not be wearing so significantly. The alignment guy suggested that may it is just these tires and that they are junk, but this does not seem like a logical answer to the main issue.

I like the car, but not the issues that it has had. I have had other repairs needed to the clutch slave cylinder, 6-sp transmission noise in 3rd gear, seat memory, etc.

At this rate, give me back my Ford!

Ron A

Question first. How can spinning the tires on a front wheel drive car cause abnormal wear on the rear tires?

I drive about the same as you do, just the wife and I in the car 99.5% of the time. I didn't notice any abnormal or unusual wear on either the first or second set of my EL'42's, and none on my LS-Z's which have about 6,000 miles on them now.

stevenr

The implication was that I just had the tires rotated from the front. As they indicate, there is no way they can verify this. So, the wear could have really come from aggressive use on the front tires and I had them rotated to the back, which is not true.

It looks like I will be spending $800-900 on a new set of tires very soon (<15k miles), because these are not safe to drive in this area during the winter.

If this is the case, Acura/Honda will have a first time customer become a last time customer. This is a shame, since this is my first foreign car experience. The Ford dealer across the street provides MUCH better service than Acura. I was hoping for a better experience.

TL42

Ron, re the above quote, when you say 1st and 2nd set of EL'42's, did you have to replace the first set because of them being the cr*p first release tires, or have you actually been through two sets of the EL'42's. Just wondering as I have the new(er)
EL'42's on my baby. Many thanks

TL42 - Gord

Ron A

TL42: I replaced the first set of crappy ones with the newer version of the EL42, mainly because I wouldn't have had a chance of a swap unless I had tried the new ones. They were just as bad so I got with Bridgestone and swapped for the LS-Z's. Much better tire.

rets

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A-TLvic882

Rear Tire Wear When you travel with passengers and luggage should be a recall issue for TL.

smides

This explains why my '04 TL seems to handle so poorly with rear-seat passengers. I thought it just was something to do with the added weight, in general. This is really a bummer. I need to get mine in for an alignment, soon, esp. since my fronts feel a little too toed-in, too.

Thanks for the information.

Neogeek

when i have my bike rack on with 3 bikes, i can really fell the rear bouncing, which leads to my rear tire wear

ITL

FYI

I just rotated my tires for the first time at 9756 miles and noticed no uneven wear on the rears...Looks like I'm a little more than halfway through the life of the Potenzas.