Which kit handles better????
02-03-2010, 02:27 PM
#41
Team Owner
I have an '05 Auto with full A-Spec suspension installed December 2008. I installed the Progress RSB 6 months before that. back in October, I helped my cousin install his Neuspeed Supercup kit with the Sport (Red powder coat) springs onto his 2008 TL Type-S Auto. We set the rings on the SP3 Koni struts at the 4th perch setting (1 down from the tallest setting).
I've driven his car a few times after we fine tuned the dampening rates on the Konis. I've ridden in it over 5 hour road trips as well. I know this is still inconclusive, but I'm going to side with 'I hate cars' as far as handling is concerned between the Supercup Kit (with sport springs) vs. A-spec Suspension. I can't attest to the Race springs which I imagine is lower and has higher spring rates.
My Driving Impressions:
2008 Type-S Auto w/Neuspeed Supercup Kit on Sport Springs
Pros
+Cornering is extremely flat although I wasn't able to test through bumpy conditions
+Ride overall is pretty firm but comfortable. Smaller bumps are dampened well and feel pillow soft initially as car dips.
+Great looking stance
Cons
- Granted it's a Type-S and nose heavy, there is very little front suspension travel to handle medium to large sized dips and bumps. Especially with 2 people riding in front (~350lbs).
- Front suspension bottoms out over a series of bumps on poor roads even on almost full soft dampening.
- I can't remember if they were progressive or not, but the Neuspeed Sport Springs feel almost as if they're progressive since they're so soft initially and then become very firm when loaded.
2005 TL Auto w/A-Spec suspension + Progress RSB (Track setting)
Pros:
+ Cornering is pretty flat under full loading, but there is still a good amount lean in a predictable/balanced manner.
+ Absorbs small bumps/section joins confidently in every situation (in during aggressive cornering).
+ Suspension almost never bottoms out (I have on rare occasions into deep potholes).
+ Spring rates feel more linear making it very predictable
Cons:
- Smaller bumps feel stiffer compared to the Supercup Kit with sport springs. They do not get more harsh as they become loaded.
Overall, I side with 'I hate cars' because I am confident that the A-Spec has the proper suspension travel to handle bumpy/rough corners better than the Supercup kit with either Sport or Race springs. Considering I'm able to hit the bump stops on the 4th highest perch going down a straight road with the Sport springs on, I have a hard time believing there is adequate travel to absorb a bump as well as the A-Spec when taken to the limit around a bend. The A-Spec on the other hand has the ability to inhibit a slight lean under hard cornering which seems to enhance grip more than anything else. The Progress RSB counters this leaning factor and allows me to maintain control when I have to swerve the other way.
Overall, I enjoy both suspensions, but I'll still take my A-Spec over the Supercup kit. I am through with the days of bottoming out my car on steep driveways and large speed bumps. I am definitely intrigued in doing the Koni SP3/A-Spec spring combination as 'I hate cars' has done in the future if I ever wear out the A-Spec struts.
I've driven his car a few times after we fine tuned the dampening rates on the Konis. I've ridden in it over 5 hour road trips as well. I know this is still inconclusive, but I'm going to side with 'I hate cars' as far as handling is concerned between the Supercup Kit (with sport springs) vs. A-spec Suspension. I can't attest to the Race springs which I imagine is lower and has higher spring rates.
My Driving Impressions:
2008 Type-S Auto w/Neuspeed Supercup Kit on Sport Springs
Pros
+Cornering is extremely flat although I wasn't able to test through bumpy conditions
+Ride overall is pretty firm but comfortable. Smaller bumps are dampened well and feel pillow soft initially as car dips.
+Great looking stance
Cons
- Granted it's a Type-S and nose heavy, there is very little front suspension travel to handle medium to large sized dips and bumps. Especially with 2 people riding in front (~350lbs).
- Front suspension bottoms out over a series of bumps on poor roads even on almost full soft dampening.
- I can't remember if they were progressive or not, but the Neuspeed Sport Springs feel almost as if they're progressive since they're so soft initially and then become very firm when loaded.
2005 TL Auto w/A-Spec suspension + Progress RSB (Track setting)
Pros:
+ Cornering is pretty flat under full loading, but there is still a good amount lean in a predictable/balanced manner.
+ Absorbs small bumps/section joins confidently in every situation (in during aggressive cornering).
+ Suspension almost never bottoms out (I have on rare occasions into deep potholes).
+ Spring rates feel more linear making it very predictable
Cons:
- Smaller bumps feel stiffer compared to the Supercup Kit with sport springs. They do not get more harsh as they become loaded.
Overall, I side with 'I hate cars' because I am confident that the A-Spec has the proper suspension travel to handle bumpy/rough corners better than the Supercup kit with either Sport or Race springs. Considering I'm able to hit the bump stops on the 4th highest perch going down a straight road with the Sport springs on, I have a hard time believing there is adequate travel to absorb a bump as well as the A-Spec when taken to the limit around a bend. The A-Spec on the other hand has the ability to inhibit a slight lean under hard cornering which seems to enhance grip more than anything else. The Progress RSB counters this leaning factor and allows me to maintain control when I have to swerve the other way.
Overall, I enjoy both suspensions, but I'll still take my A-Spec over the Supercup kit. I am through with the days of bottoming out my car on steep driveways and large speed bumps. I am definitely intrigued in doing the Koni SP3/A-Spec spring combination as 'I hate cars' has done in the future if I ever wear out the A-Spec struts.
Here's what I found. Weekends are fully booked so Friday or weekdays are all that's left:
2008 Willow Springs International Motorsports Park
Rental Rate Schedule revised 7/07/08
(ATTENTION: W.S.I.R. charges and retains ALL Park Admission Fees. Please refer to Section N.)
A. OPEN TESTING / TUNING (Willow Springs Raceway only - available Fridays only)
1. Current W.S.I.R. membership required for drivers @ $75.00 per calendar year.
2. Race-prepared vehicles only (excluding karts and drifting). Unlimited number of vehicles allowed.
3. Reservations preferred. Notice of cancellation appreciated.
4. No emergency personnel provided. No passengers allowed. Photography from spectator areas only.
5. Fees are $75.00 per driver / $75.00 per vehicle / $10.00 per crew member (any person over 8 years old).
1. Current W.S.I.R. membership required for drivers @ $75.00 per calendar year.
2. Race-prepared vehicles only (excluding karts and drifting). Unlimited number of vehicles allowed.
3. Reservations preferred. Notice of cancellation appreciated.
4. No emergency personnel provided. No passengers allowed. Photography from spectator areas only.
5. Fees are $75.00 per driver / $75.00 per vehicle / $10.00 per crew member (any person over 8 years old).
B. SEMI-EXCLUSIVE CIRCUIT RENTAL (Willow Springs Raceway or Streets of Willow Springs)
1. Race-prepared vehicles for testing & tuning only. Limit of six drivers scheduled per day.
3. Reservations required. 48 hour notice of cancellation mandatory.
4. No emergency personnel provided. No passengers allowed - NO EXCEPTIONS. Photography from spectator areas only.
5. Fees are $500.00 for first car / driver, $200.00 per additional driver and $200.00 per additional vehicle (per team). Current W.S.I.R. membership is included at no extra charge to drivers. Unlimited crew members at no charge. FEES TO BE PAID IN ADVANCE AT TIME OF RESERVATION.
C. WILLOW SPRINGS RACEWAY (2.5-mile road course)
1. Reservations required. 50% confirmation deposit required. All deposits transferable, but not refundable.
2. 7 days advance cancellation mandatory for all weekday events and 60 days notice for any weekend events. A failure to comply may result in forfeiture of deposit.
3. For testing and tuning purposes. Current W.S.I.R. membership for driver is acceptable.
4. For all other uses such as commercial filming, ride and drives or production car development, a $5 million combined single limit certificate of insurance is required, listing required parties as "Willow Springs Raceway as additional insured" and date of event, unless insurance is a blanket policy.
5. Exclusive Rental Fees: Weekdays (January through December) are $2,750.00 per day or $1,500.00 per half day. Weekends are $4,000.00 per day.
D. STREETS OF WILLOW SPRINGS (1.8-mile road course and skid pad)
1. Refer to Section C, items 1 through 4.
2. Kart Testing: $200 per driver, $75 per Membership Card, $10 per crew.
3. Anybody wanting to put water on the skidpad will pay $1000.00 extra per day.
4. Exclusive Rental Fees: Weekdays (year-round) are $2,250.00 per day or $1,200.00 per half day. Weekends (year-round) are $3,000.00 per day.
E. HORSE THIEF MILE (11 turn road course featuring major elevation changes, tight turns and canyon-like surroundings)
1. Refer to Section C, items 1 through 4.
2. Semi-Exclusive Testing (including Drift Testing): Fully Race-Prepared Cars only. $350 per driver, $150 per additional car and/or driver. Unlimited crew free.
3. Kart Testing: $25 per driver, $75 per Membership, $10 per crew.
4. New Drift organizations only:
a. Must have fire/rescue crew for a minimun of two events and at the discretion of track management to when fire/rescue is no longer needed.
b. Must run a minimum of two events at the Balcony course before Track Management will consider allowing you on Horse Thief Mile. Two-event minimum also at discretion of Track Management.
c. Drifting events at Horse Thief Mile will require fire/rescue on stand-by. No exceptions.
d. No convertibles allowed.
5. Exclusive Rental Fees: Weekdays/Weekends $ 1,500.00 per day / Half-day $ 800.00.
1. Race-prepared vehicles for testing & tuning only. Limit of six drivers scheduled per day.
3. Reservations required. 48 hour notice of cancellation mandatory.
4. No emergency personnel provided. No passengers allowed - NO EXCEPTIONS. Photography from spectator areas only.
5. Fees are $500.00 for first car / driver, $200.00 per additional driver and $200.00 per additional vehicle (per team). Current W.S.I.R. membership is included at no extra charge to drivers. Unlimited crew members at no charge. FEES TO BE PAID IN ADVANCE AT TIME OF RESERVATION.
C. WILLOW SPRINGS RACEWAY (2.5-mile road course)
1. Reservations required. 50% confirmation deposit required. All deposits transferable, but not refundable.
2. 7 days advance cancellation mandatory for all weekday events and 60 days notice for any weekend events. A failure to comply may result in forfeiture of deposit.
3. For testing and tuning purposes. Current W.S.I.R. membership for driver is acceptable.
4. For all other uses such as commercial filming, ride and drives or production car development, a $5 million combined single limit certificate of insurance is required, listing required parties as "Willow Springs Raceway as additional insured" and date of event, unless insurance is a blanket policy.
5. Exclusive Rental Fees: Weekdays (January through December) are $2,750.00 per day or $1,500.00 per half day. Weekends are $4,000.00 per day.
D. STREETS OF WILLOW SPRINGS (1.8-mile road course and skid pad)
1. Refer to Section C, items 1 through 4.
2. Kart Testing: $200 per driver, $75 per Membership Card, $10 per crew.
3. Anybody wanting to put water on the skidpad will pay $1000.00 extra per day.
4. Exclusive Rental Fees: Weekdays (year-round) are $2,250.00 per day or $1,200.00 per half day. Weekends (year-round) are $3,000.00 per day.
E. HORSE THIEF MILE (11 turn road course featuring major elevation changes, tight turns and canyon-like surroundings)
1. Refer to Section C, items 1 through 4.
2. Semi-Exclusive Testing (including Drift Testing): Fully Race-Prepared Cars only. $350 per driver, $150 per additional car and/or driver. Unlimited crew free.
3. Kart Testing: $25 per driver, $75 per Membership, $10 per crew.
4. New Drift organizations only:
a. Must have fire/rescue crew for a minimun of two events and at the discretion of track management to when fire/rescue is no longer needed.
b. Must run a minimum of two events at the Balcony course before Track Management will consider allowing you on Horse Thief Mile. Two-event minimum also at discretion of Track Management.
c. Drifting events at Horse Thief Mile will require fire/rescue on stand-by. No exceptions.
d. No convertibles allowed.
5. Exclusive Rental Fees: Weekdays/Weekends $ 1,500.00 per day / Half-day $ 800.00.
02-03-2010, 07:39 PM
#44
Team Owner
Re: Varify my cure for FWD understeer problems please. (RAB) You have a lot to learn weedhopper :-)
Basically you are right - softer front and stiffer rear do make the car understeer less (or oversteer more - its the same thing really).
But there is the law of diminishing returns for a stock type car. Here's why - as you soften up the front the body rolls more and more for a given lateral load. There is nothing wrong with body roll as long as the tire stays flat on the ground. If you have double wishbones or another suspension type that can add negative camber as it compresses than the tire will stay flat. But if you have MacPherson struts or another suspension type that does not add neg camber as it compresses than the tire patch is no longer flat on the ground and you lose grip as the car rolls.
Also if you go too soft and you get enough roll to hit the bump stops then you can have disasterous consequences. When you hit the bumpstop then your spring rate goes instantly form ~200 lbs/inch to infinity. And the car can very quickly transition form understeer to severe oversteer or from neutral to severe understeer because of the instant weight transfer.
So, the answer is - it depends. If your front end can handle softer spring rates without losing contact patch or bottoming out then you might go softer. But some cars (like torsion bar CRXs) actually get less understeer with a bigger front bar. Go figure :-)
I recommend going with what others have done with the same car and who use it for the same purpose as you want. Also pick the person you model your car after carefully. There are a lot of wrong-headed people out there. Use moderation and only make one change at a time.
Finally, recognize that suspension changes can make your car unstable. So test gently, gradually come up to the limits and DO NOT DO IT ON THE STREET. I read a story by a Miata
owner who installed a bigger rear sway bar with adjustable end links and then promptly went out to his favorite twisty road and proceeded to "test" the new setup at the limit. The result was the car totalled on a flat bed. If he had not had a roll bar the 3 rollovers the car did would have killed him. It turns out that he had installed the bar incorrectly and it totally bound the rear suspension once it compressed a little.Regards,
Alan
Oh, and one problem, I may have lost one of my Konis on the rear, we shall see. Good thing I kept my a-spec shocks but it would be a shame after all the tuning time I've put in.
I'm looking forward to putting two cars with the same shocks, one with stiffer springs than the other to the test at the track. Of course I'm not saying the a-spec springs are stiff enough for competition use but I think they're more than capable for a daily driver that sees occasional track time.
02-03-2010, 08:36 PM
#46
Team Owner
02-03-2010, 08:41 PM
#48
Pro
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Southern California
Age: 38
Posts: 648
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depends...
the TL needs to be tracked...for a baseline...
summer time the TL got 3-4 runs the angeles crest each week for fun....that is by far my most favorite road...
we should drive it!
-Jason
the TL needs to be tracked...for a baseline...
summer time the TL got 3-4 runs the angeles crest each week for fun....that is by far my most favorite road...
we should drive it!
-Jason
02-03-2010, 10:16 PM
#49
Team Owner
I'm not trying to disagree just to disagree but I think you may be in for a surprise at the track when it's at the limit. But maybe I'm wrong. The rules are confusing but CSW is a pro at this track, I'm sure he will clarify.
02-03-2010, 10:18 PM
#50
Team Owner
That would be lots of fun and maybe a warmup for Willow. I'm doing the Rotoras this Friday assuming the brake fluid arrives in time. I confirmed one of my Konis is blown so I'm installing the a-spec rear shocks on Friday also.
02-03-2010, 10:19 PM
#51
Team Owner
Just got a tracking# on the fluid and it should be here tomorrow so no problems there. Looking forward to doing this.
02-03-2010, 11:53 PM
#52
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
THANK YOU SO MUCH binhsterbinh! the other guys didnt even help 1 bit they just turned this thread into a testosterone battle especially when sean jumped in and instigated! lol. i agree with you on not wanting a super low car. i saw a dude with a super slammed is350 and it took him like 15 seconds to turn on an intersection cuz his ride was so low. i instantly thought to myself....hmmmm i dont want to be like that jackass, better go A-spec.
can you please post some pics of ur car so i can see the stance. i bought my car used so i am not sure if the original owner added A-spec suspension along with the kit and rims. its hard to think he wouldn't spend and extra 600 bucks but take a look at these pics in another thread i had. do you think im on A-spec suspension?
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...hlight=fatfrii
can you please post some pics of ur car so i can see the stance. i bought my car used so i am not sure if the original owner added A-spec suspension along with the kit and rims. its hard to think he wouldn't spend and extra 600 bucks but take a look at these pics in another thread i had. do you think im on A-spec suspension?
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...hlight=fatfrii
02-06-2010, 04:13 AM
#53
Racer
THANK YOU SO MUCH binhsterbinh! the other guys didnt even help 1 bit they just turned this thread into a testosterone battle especially when sean jumped in and instigated! lol. i agree with you on not wanting a super low car. i saw a dude with a super slammed is350 and it took him like 15 seconds to turn on an intersection cuz his ride was so low. i instantly thought to myself....hmmmm i dont want to be like that jackass, better go A-spec.
can you please post some pics of ur car so i can see the stance. i bought my car used so i am not sure if the original owner added A-spec suspension along with the kit and rims. its hard to think he wouldn't spend and extra 600 bucks but take a look at these pics in another thread i had. do you think im on A-spec suspension?
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...hlight=fatfrii
can you please post some pics of ur car so i can see the stance. i bought my car used so i am not sure if the original owner added A-spec suspension along with the kit and rims. its hard to think he wouldn't spend and extra 600 bucks but take a look at these pics in another thread i had. do you think im on A-spec suspension?
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...hlight=fatfrii
From the looks of it, you have a stock suspension. My car looked exactly like yours before I installed the A-Spec suspension. Here's a before picture:
After A-Spec:
Think what gives it away that you're on stock suspension is the front end. The back end doesn't change significantly but the front is noticeable.
Also, if you have the A-Spec, your ride should be pretty firm on those 18's. On the stock suspension, I found it pretty easy to bottom out the suspension (bump stops) on big bumps.
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