Hawhyen51

You need to read the SB and look at the Tire Prorating Info at the end of the document. Maybe some of the dealers will work with you to obtain a different brand (discounted?). Other than that I think we're stuck with the EL. Excerpt from the SB:

emd21

Thanks for posting this, but this does mean one has to replace really bad tires with really bad tires, doesn't it. Why isn't Acura giving their customers (who will remain loyal) an allowance towards tires that might last more than 14-15,000 miles?

Could you advise any experience with this?

Thanks!

Hawhyen51

According to the SB, the replacement tire has a new construction code number DY223i. The old ones are DW315i or DU958i. Whether or not the newly constructed tire will be any better is anybody guess. They claim "improved wear charateristics", whatever that means.

There are two repair procedures, 1) replace four new tires and 2) Install new rear bump stops, check and adjust the toe to specs Front Toe: 0 +/- 2mm Rear Toe: 0 +/- 2mm.

I think the ideal fix would be to have them check the toe specs and make necessary adjustments. If you look at the prorated cost, I think you're better off buying the tires of your choice vs the EL42 (again). Just my opinion.

emd21

Hi there. Thank you for the quick response, but I'm still quite puzzled about something that I'm hoping someone out there might answer: If Honda/Acura wants to maintain, not only its reputation for reliability and safety, but also for responsibility, why are they insistent on only replacing EL42's with the same. There are other manufacturers who warranty tread-wear for the same sized tire for 45 - 50000 miles (Michelin and Yokohama), while Bridgestone does not offer anything like that. I appreciate the advice (above) to go with "other" branded tires, that's our feeling also, in reference not only to not having to go through this same thing all over again next year (most probably if we replace same with slightly "improved" same), but also with safety issues that are crucial--especially in the NorthEast where we live.

Before buying the TL we researched it carefully, checked message boards, Consumer Reports, etc. The only thing that was noted in any of these was the fact that the tires (EL42s) seemed to be problematic. Before signing on the dotted line and paying for the car at the dealership, we quizzed the salesman and were assured that the tires were fine. Well, I don't think this TSB is indicative of that, and I feel that Acura/Honda should be doing more to advise their consumers of this issue.

Any further input is welcome and sorry for venting.

Best,

EMD21

jginnane

In our case, we were able to demonstrate that our 05 TL with VIN# *NEWER* than the 12/24 Service Bulletin, and which was supposed to have the corrected bump stops and improved Bridgestone rubber, nonetheless had worn to the point of control loss in normal winter driving at 17,000 miles (8 months).

We offered to accept installed Pirelli P-Zero Nero tires ($135 ea) as a full warranty replacement. The dealership, in its discretion, elected to use the other Acura OEM tire, the Michelin Pilot H4 MXM (which lists at tirerack for $224 ea).

In the first 1200 miles driving since this warranty work was done January 9th, we feel the Michelins are quieter, better tracking, and generally much more comfortable (and safer) than the Bridgestones. Good, as a "grand touring" tire designed for "luxury performance" . . .whatever that means.

When we are ready for our next set -- at 300 treadwear rating, that may be another 35,000 miles -- we will definitely choose from the "Ultra High Performance All-Season" category at tirerack. That would be either Avon Tech ($110) or the Pirellis ($135), as above. And we will get a tire that's probably better (and much cheaper) for our driving needs.

Every dealership has discretion to offer courtesy service beyond the commonly worded warranty and/or service bulletins. Our dealer, Open Road Acura of New Brunswick NJ (Route 18), knows we will buy at least one more Acura from them, maybe several (starting with an RDX?), and they know we did not experience anything like this wear problem on our previous car (an 04 TSX we traded at 25,000 with stock Michelins). So in our case, it's good business for them to go the extra mile, and the service manager (Tony Pallatto) should be applauded for his perception.

CPR

Kudo's to Paragon Acura/Queens, NY
Just changed all 4 of my old EL42's, after 9,700 miles, & replaced them with supposedly, a newer version.
Didn't cost a penny; mounting, balancing, etc.
Service there is great
They stand by their brand, (Acura), even if you bought it elsewhere
Keep up the good work!

techguy

I have bad wear in my rear tires that I notices last week. I'll call Acura in Concord and see what they say. I have 21K on it and I don't want to pay 70% of the price of the Turanza. It might be cheaper to pay 100% of the cost of new Ziex512s.

BigChunk

My dealer, Harper Acura/Knoxville, TN, wants to charge me $68.00 labor (mounting and balancing), $51.00 for alignment, plus $374.00 for prorated cost of tires. Total $493.00.

Some of you are not paying anything. What should I do?

jginnane

Where is the detailed post from you explaining your car's condition, and how you approached your dealership? In the 4 posts you've made to this whole website, 2 seem to indicate you own a 2006 TL. Nothing posted about tire problems.

You should probably pay the dealer what he's asking for, if you're not going to research this extensively and figure out a proper approach. No Acura dealership I'm aware of is handing out ~$1000 tire sets like free candy.

In fact, you might have already fried your best chance if you didn't prep before you went in there. Sorry! If this is the case, try going around the dealer to the 800 warranty / service number. (And DON'T write back here asking what the number is...)

parinpmehta

Hey guys,

I have one of the 04' TL's that is affected by the bump stop wear problem. It's got only 17k on it so the tires are eligible to be replaced at half the cost due to the service bulletin.

Although I am aware that the vast majority of members hate the EL42's, the total cost to me was $260 to replace all 4 tires. The dealer asked if I wanted the Michelins that are on the 05' & 06's but that would have been +$1000 out of pocket.

So, the decision was to get 4 tires on my own (probably Falken Ziex's) at +$400 vs the $260. I went with the $260.

Am I smart or just a cheap bastard?

Landonk

Have the 06 models been corrected at the factory?

ChuckDu

Bump stops- yes.

Improved EL42s-yes.

New alignment specs- probably since December 24th or so since that's when Acura engineering released the new 0.0 deg. rear toe number. I'd also venture to guess that all TLs will come off the assembly line with a 0.0 deg rear toe alignment.

techguy

No, just practical. You can get your choice of tires once the EL42s go bad.

jginnane

First, EL42s have a treadwear rating of only 240-260. This compares to the best "ultra high performance all-season" tires at tirerack.com which have a 400 rating: the Avon Tech or the Pirellis. Not sure if the Turanza rating changed with this "new improved rubber compound", but the problems many people here were having were possibly related to the actual tread design and construction, not just the shoddy wearing of the rubber.

Balanced against this is the fact that you don't drive as much as many of us. Our 05 got 17K in 8 months. Replacing a complete set of tires every 8 months -- and Bridgestones aren't like PepBoys' 4-for-$99 special -- was a nonstarter for us.

I think you could have negotiated something else with your dealer. If he was already committed to the mounting, balancing, alignment and bump stops, you could have gotten the best from tirerack (Avon or Pirelli) shipped direct to him, then possibly worked out an allowance on the EL42s. Or, if the dealer wanted to hardball, you could pivot and negotiate toward the Bridgestone LS-Z tire -- which tirerack ranks as the #1 "grand touring" tire, as opposed to "ultra high performance all season". (Not everything Bridgestone makes sucks.)

Acuraluvr

iTrader: (2)

our tires are not worn down to the bump stops.... and we just passed 10000 miles

if we change the tires to our choice ( not the el42) will allignment affect those tires too??

emd21

Hi there. Well my husband decided to go not with the EL42s, but instead with Yokahama's that have a 45000 mile treadwear warranty -- however because he went through the Acura customer service department (and had the Service Bulletin in hand THANK YOU SO MUCH) we were able to have the local Acura dealership balance and align the tires, do all the corrective work to prevent the uneven wear from happening again (hopefully), and they also threw in a 30000 mile tune up -- all in all the service value was equal to what he paid out of pocket for the new tires ($570) at our local Mavis. If he went with the EL's he would have had to pay around $300 and would not have received this service, so we feel we have the better deal both now and down the line (and boy what a difference in the ride with these tires!).

I hope that Acura will phase these tires out so by the time we go for a new TL we won't run into an EL42 in our future (just all in all lousy tires).

Thanks again for posting that TSB as if you all hadn't I don't think either the dealership or Acura would have acted as they did -- having this in hand with our VIN in the middle of the effected 05s, really did the trick...

HawkTL

I'm in the same position - I have a 2004 TL with just under 10,000 miles. I want to call the dealer to get the bump stops installed for sure and it would be nice to get some the updated tires out of the deal while they will pay 100%. However, my factory EL42s are in good shape. My TL is a 2nd car and has never seen snow and barely any rain, but I have experienced the flatspotting. I would appreciate any advice on how to tee this up right the first time and get both the bump stops and new tires - thanks in advance for any advice!

jginnane

OK, if you're *just* asking for them to honor the service bulletin, no problem. (That's like a base line.)

The issue for a lot of people here is that they might not want to repeat the same experience with Turanza EL42s for another 10-20,000 miles, and would like to change brands.

This is where your research -- specifically, on the comments left at tirerack.com by Acura owners with the EL42s -- will pay off. In early January, there were 110 Acura-owner comments. None positive.

Do further research and identify the tires you'd like to have, and alternately, the tires you might be willing to live with. Figure out how much you'd be willing to pay for each of these options. If you've never had serious problems with control or wear, and the tires look exactly like they should... don't beat a dead horse.

It seems the Michelin H4 MXMs, which are alternate OEM tires for the TL, don't have that good a rep at tirerack. OTOH, your Acura dealer has a ready supply of these, and it might be easier for him to give you these (at $224 per tire) than to deal with Acura Corporate for a set of Avon Tech ($110 ea) or Pirelli ($135 ea) tires.

We haven't had any difficulty with the Michelins in the month+ they've been on. They were not our first choice... but they're "good enough".

Hawhyen51

If your tires are in good shape and doesn't meet the criteria described in the SB, chances are you won't get new tires.That will be totally up to your dealer and if you have established a rapport with them, they may go the extra mile for ya.

I'm in different situation than you are (04, 20K) and haven't contacted the dealer yet. My tires seem to be wearing evenly and will probably ask for the repair (bump stops, check toe) only. I will purchase the tires of my choice (out of pocket expense) and dispense with not having anything to do with the Turanza EL42's despite their claims of "improved wear characteristics".

HawkTL

Thanks for the information. I'll call my dealer and see what they say. I have seen the negative comments on these tires and would like to get them changed in the event my TL becomes a daily driver. It doesn't seem right to have potentially unsafe tires just because I haven't driven with heavy loads or in poor weather up to this point.

CPR

Thanks to Paragon Acura, I'm riding on the new & improved version of this tire.
Took it out into the snow, on Sunday, (the day of the blizzard), & lo & behold, they felt great. The front wheel drive pulled me through with no problem. Saw BMW's, spinning their wheels, & going nowhere.
Not for nothing, but these new EL 42's, are a huge improvement.
Thanks Paragon! I had 9,700 miles on my old ones. Replaced all 4, free of charge!
One question remains:
The balancing is perfect; zero shimmy, at any speed.
How do they do that, without adding weights to the rim?
If anyone knows, please let me know
Usually, when you go for a tire change, even speed balancing, requires rim weights.
Do the dealers have a special balancing machine?

HawkTL

I hope my dealer is as good as Paragon. They are going to look at my car on Monday. The service guy I spoke with was familiar with the service bulletin and seemed very aware of the problems with the EL42s. I told him I expected the bump stops installed and the tires replaced and no push back so far.....we'll see.

georgeny

Like most here I am highly unhappy with the EL42's in all my years of driving I have never felt such a feeling of lack of control on wet road while driving on a low mileage tire.

Is it the tire - I don't know
Is it the suspebsion - I don't know
Is it the car design - I don't know

What I do know is that the tire wear, feeling of hydroplaning at low speed, lack of stickiness if you will, is unacceptable. the fact that Acura stays with this tire leads me to believe they either don't care or that it is not necessarily the tire itself but a design flaw in the TL.

I am due into dealer in March for oil change and second year NY inspection. I may instead buy a new vehicle other than a TL since I have only seen so-so satisfaction obtained by changing tires. The opinions on various tires coupled with the cost also seems absurd. I have never owned a car at 20k, 2 year point that I had to deal with this type of tire issue. Generally I trade every 2 - 2.5 years and have never had tires that didn't look almost new. Here at that point these look and feel like they have been on there for 50k.

I am leaning toward the opinion that there is a much more serious problem, design wise, with this issue than Acura has either identified or will own up to. This is NOT a normal situation!

I did my research prior to buying my 04 and actually saw much on tires rigt away. At that time it was the flatspotting issue. I had dealer change my tires to the later version tire at that time. Now they would have me change to the newer, later, version? And at primarily my cost since over 20k?

Nope, think my TL days are over sad to say because other than this issue I have loved my TL. However this is no small issue. I constantly feel that I have some degree of control lacking as I drive despite not being a hotrodder in any sense. I naver carry passengers so their bumper thing fix doesn't impress me.

I rented a Ford Taurus to return from VA to NY a while back. I was suddenly struck at what a difference I felt driving on a rainy rt 95. I felt stuck to the road and realized how much more in control and road contact I felt driving a plain old Taurus compared to my fancy Acura TL. That shouldn't be!

Thinking of returning to Maxima ( which doesn't seem to have a problem with same tire when they have it ) or going to an Accord like my wife. So far I haven't taken not of any problem such as this with Honda Accord either.

George

jginnane

Hi George! Seems our ages puts us in the "senior" category here. I can appreciate your comments.

You have to understand what Acura did: they took a base Accord, manufactured in Ohio, and tricked it up a little. Like the way Pontiac became the "performance" version of a Chevy.

Tire or suspension? The rear toe-in under load is an engineering decision. It's not just trunk weight. "Load" is anything that compresses the suspension, like bouncing over a rutty surface. Any time the rear of the car is under load it's like a person on skis doing a snowplow braking maneuver. If this is coupled with a marginal tire (240 treadwear rating), not only are they going to get chewed up fast, but if one side bites while the other doesn't, it'll give you a very whoopsie! ride.

When we traded the TSX for the TL, the Michelins at 25K looked good. But -- define "satisfaction". If you want tires to last 35-40K, select replacements with 300-400 treadwear ratings. (That's probably what Acura should have done from the beginning.)

Rear toe-in, under load. OEM tires that do not meet most people's criteria of "good" (Handling, wear, noise, etr. etc.) Torque steer. These are all known, and documented. The TSX has much nicer handling, but then you're in a 4-banger. 85mph in a TSX is exciting ... in a TL, it's ho-hum.

Not fair! (Tho' I've hyperbolized, too. You would feel better "stuck to the road" in rain in a Taurus than a Ferrari Testarossa, too. And this proves--???

Acura knows the only way you're going to come back to them -- if competing models are basically about the same -- is if they provide superior service, and create a relationship you can rely on in the long term. The Acura dealer five miles from our house fried this basic trust. We now deal exclusively with a dealer 30 miles away. We're not at a point where we feel comfortable with any Infiniti or Lexus dealers around here, so those companies would have to offer significant inducements (during a window when we're car shopping) to have us consider them.

The Acura dealer we have now, though -- Open Road Acura on Rte 18 in North Brunswick NJ -- has always treated us fairly and ethically -- qualities which aren't as common as you might think.

georgeny

Well I can't say I have a problem with my dealer and I haven't approached this subject, tires, with them in any degree. I use Curry Acura in Scarsdale NY and have been very happy with their service though I really haven't needed any but routine oil change and I rotated tires at 10k, again because they around seemed to have a control issue.

Recently bought a loaded Accord for wife, I change her car every two to three years as well. So far only 3k on hers but having driven it a couple of times makes me wonder why I really shouldn't just get top of line Accord versus another TL. The only thing I would really miss is the dealer's expresso machine. Who knows maybe local Honda (same company Curry ) has a machine too ? Since Honda is about 2 miles from me and Acura about 25 that would be a plus as well.

The thing that gets my goat is that I find it annoying that Acura ( Honda ) would do such a nice job engineering/designing the TL and then leave something as important as a decent tire as an after thought. I'm also concerned that instead of giving an prorated allowance toward a tire of choice that they would require replacement of the same junk. Even if the new tire is better they are already out of my selection list. Old school, burn me once, do my best never to give you another shot at it.

I didn't buy TL because it was a " hot" car, I bought it because I liked the interior design and standard amenities provided for price. I was considering extending my normal ownership out to 3 - 3.5 years based on longer warranty of Acura and the fact that my annual mileage is lower than in previous years. If I throw on tires to get that time frame it is an annoyance to me only because I'm a funny guy that way. I " justify " reality ot not, never driving a car that is not in warranty, hence always driving a relatively new vehicle, in part by knowing I never put any money in maintainence. Oil changes excluded of course. Throwing $800 or more into tires derides that concept. To my limited way of rationalization once I start buying things for the car coupled with continued erosion of trade value I have lost any argument. If I buy a new car I get new tires, if you follow my reasoning So the whole tire question becomes a real issue with me, perhaps more so than a more reasonable man...

I would just get the oil change and inspection and go another 6 months buying in the nice weather but that means 6 months of driving on tires I am not confident in. I don't think I find that suitable for me.

The very reason you pay additional for the Acura tag is the alledged added quality, service, and keep em happy attitude. If that doesn't occur might as well be driving the Old Chevy Nova like back in the day.

techguy

Acura of Concord tells me that there is a newer TSB (05-050) dated Feb 1 , 2006 which superceeds 05-076. This TSB which I have not seen has a modified repair procedure B. It no longer includes changing/checking the alignment on 2004 models!

Anyone has access to TSBs and can post them?

HawkTL

Well I couldn't wait until Monday and went to my dealer today. I'm not sure why they had me come in person because I was immediately told that unless my rear tires were worn to the indicators they would not install the bump stops and I was definitely not getting tires. They measured my tread depth and wrote down my mileage and shuttled me out the door. I expressed my concern with the service bulletin and the EL42s in general but they said there wasn't anything they could/would do since the service bulletin says to only take action if the rear tires are worn. I expected better from Acura, I guess I'm going to have to start writing letters.

HawkTL

Does anyone have any input on this? I knew that it would be tough to convince them to replace 4 tires that look good, but I thought they would put in the bump stops. My worry now is that I'll end up putting new tires on later at my expense, will take a trip with a load in the car, and end up ruining 2 good tires that I paid for and Acura will tell me to pound sand because they aren't original tires and/or I'll be out of warranty.

jginnane

Well, you said back in this thread that you have an '04 with under 10K miles.

DOCUMENT! Print out the service bulletin. Write a cover letter to the service manager. Send it registered - return receipt requested. Request a written response. Get them to commit in writing to what they will or will not do. (If they don't respond in a reasonable amount of time you give them -- 10 business days, for example -- that in itself is a warranty or consumer fraud issue.)

If their commitment to you is not in agreement with what the service bulletin spells out, you'll have to immediately escalate over their heads (to the 800 number). But by all means, try to get the dealership's specific commitment in writing. Otherwise, you won't have the start of a case.

Once you've followed the proper steps to formally initiate action, they won't doubletalk you (into something you don't want). But if you keep it all verbal -- a "he said, he said" story -- you're not going anywhere with this. In your letter, remember to exactly cite dates, names, etc. of any previous interactions you've had with them and why you don't believe this is proper service.

(IOW... treat it as the start of an adverse legal action... so that it hopefully won't be.)

kosh2258

I approached my dealer about the bulletin today and got essentially the same answer.

But I'm thinking the same way HawkTL is. Today I don't drive around with any signficant weight in the rear so the problem doesn't show up as excessive tire wear. But what happens if something changes and I start carrying passengers/additional weight? Like HawkTL, I don't want to go out and buy a new set of tires to replace these crappy "Turdranzas" only to have them ground down because the basic problem hasn't been addressed - bump stops that compress too much allowing too much rear toe in plus too much toe in set from the factory.

About the only stop gap would be to pay an alignment shop to change the front and rear toe in adjustment to the new setting - 0 deg., then hassle about the bump stops with Acura. At least doing that would reduce the potential for excessive rear tire wear, but may not eliminate it completely.

HawkTL

Sorry to hear you got the same answer. The other problem with this is if you rotate the tires as recommended the rear tire problem could just be interpreted as the EL42s wearing prematurely. I wonder how many people have this rear toe/bump stop problem and don't know it because they rotated their tires and therefore all 4 looked worn. I think there was a post regarding an updated service bulletin (2/06?) on this - has anyone seen it and/or can they find it and share it with us?

jginnane

Hope this thread works out for you both. The key thing is to document, thoroughly, at every step. If your dealership turns into a brick wall, you may still have luck going over their heads (by getting Honda America involved). But if you've saved yourself five minutes by not bothering to keep extensive notes, it gets real hard to put together a serious claim.

I'm off to another thread... because a few days ago, the wiffey got rearended. Rear plastic bumper cover -- $279. Paint, about another $280. Left rear taillight housing, $140. Price to pull out the left rear sheet metal by 1/2 inch... $435; otherwise the new plastic will look like a "Detroit fit".

This strikes me as somewhat fascinating because I picked up the damaged rear bumper cover from the body shop today, and then went to Walmart. At Walmart I got 3 new laundry baskets, for $2.94 each.

I'm looking at the bumper cover and the three laundry baskets rattling around in the back of my Yukon. Weight of the plastic's about the same. Next time she gets herself hit, I'm telling her we'll just glue plastic laundry baskets on the backside and the hell with it.

HawkTL

Oh man, so sorry to hear of your estimate. That's always going to be time to bend over. Thanks for your advice on this thread and good luck with the repairs. Also thanks for the lol on the laundry basket comparison. Just remember that laundry basket doesn't come with clear coat......that would make it cost at least 8 bucks.

JGL

Have appt for tomorrow, I have about 16k miles, they are charging me $215/tire.....I pay for 2 tires, they pay for 2. This is in Dallas. Slightly disappointed that non-Michelins are $215/each, but this is cheaper then getting new tires. They will replace with new Bridgestones wont swap for value for other type of tire, unfortunatly.

If I didnt read this bulletin on this site, I would have never known, almost went to Costco to get Michelins. Thanks

DanL

iTrader: (2)

You're dealer is over charging you. You can buy the tire directly from Tire Rack (which is where the TSB requires the dealer to purchase them from) for $179 and I'm sure the dealer gets a discount off that to boot. In fact, the dealer doesn't even have to cover shipping since Acura will reimburse them $10/tire. I'd ask where the extra $40+ per tire is going...

JGL

Thank you. Not sure how to proceed? Ask them why isnt price $179? What does Tire Rack have to do with it ?

I thought $215 was steep for Bridgestone, never really thought those tires that came on the TL were that great, I've always bought Michelin. Thanks DanL

DanL

iTrader: (2)

Go to the first post in the thread an click on the actual TSB link. If you read the section on "Tire replacement information" you'll see the dealer has to purchase the replacement tire from Tire Rack (www.tirerack.com). The dealer's installation costs and $10/tire shipping are both covered by Acura. So it's fair to ask the dealer why you're being charged $215/tire when you can purchase the same tire from the same source for $179. Personnally, I'd probably pay an extra $150 or so and get four decent tires such as Pirelli PZero Nero M/S's or Toyo Proxes 4's. I paid $530 out the door for my 245/45/17 Proxes 4's.

JGL

OK thanks, I'll call before I go tomorrow morning, there are several Acura dealers in the Dallas/FW area, worst case I go elsewhere. I'm just a thousand miles above 15k miles, so I'm disappointed I'm slightly over the mileage breakpoint. I was about to get Michelins at Costco for well over $200per tire until I stumbled across this thread today.

JGL

UPDATE****

Dealer here in Plano Texas is charging $175/tire give or take a few bucks, I have 16,500 miles, so I'm happy even though I'd much rather have Michelins.

georgeny

Recieved email from my dealer:

Thank you for your response to our e-mail.I have spoken to many of our customers in reference to dissatisfaction with the tires supplied by Acura and constantly speak with the factory letting them know our customers feelings. We have to follow the terms of the warranty as outlined by the manufaturer. In this case the TSB is to replace the tires with oem tires at a prorated cost and replace bump stops in rear of vehicle at no cost as necessary. I have asked prior for monetary consideration for non oem tires and the manufacterer will not participate. We stock only oem tires,which also include Michelin brand tires. Therefore I can replace your tires with the Bridgestone on a prorated basis or price four Michelin tires for you. If you want to replace with Michelin, call me and I will work on getting the best price I can for you.

Talked to Service Manager, at Curry Acura Scarsdale, and he was very nice about trying to get me a price for Michelins. I may just go with Pirelli's though locally. My problem continues to be that I generally would reach my trade for new car point in about another 6 months. It seems crazy to spend what you must spend on new tires now a days only to put 6,000 miles on them then trade vehicle. So my decision is between trading now or buying tires must be made soon. I don't know if I can drive on these crap tires for another 6,000 miles.