is300eater

I know this is probably an old subject... but can anyone explain to me (and anyone else whose curious), the difference between a Forged wheel and Cast wheel? Are forged wheels that much better?

jimster716

a cast wheel is where molten alloy is poured into wheel dies. when it cools, the wheel is taken out and further tooled.

forging is taking a big chunk of aluminum and squeezing it into a disk. the disk is then machined until it attains the final design.

what are the advantages and disadvantages?
1. most cast wheels are made of an aluminum alloy while forged wheels are made of just aluminum. this means that cast wheels tend to be heavier, resulting in power loss at the wheels.

2. forging creates a radial grain in the wheel center section. cast wheels have no grain whatsoever. this graining has inherent strength advantages. a forged is wheel is more likely to bend which makes it repairable. a cast wheel tends to crack and even break beyond repair.

3. the only real disadvantage of forged wheels is cost. but the build quality and repairability usually offset the cons.

4. forged wheels also tend to be made in multi-piece configurations which make for more variety in fitment and offset for a better fit.

in light of forged technology's advantages in weight, strength and build quality, I do think forged wheels are worth that much more than cast wheels.

is300eater

Wow!!! Thanks "Jimster" that was really informative!!!!

jimster716

no prob...

btw...BBS uses a technologically advanced casting method called counter pressure casting and high counter pressure molding. basically a vacuum sucks up molten material into the wheel dies. the strength and quality approaches that of forged technology.

and don't forget magnesium wheels. super lightweight but extremely expensive. race teams use mags and some companies do offer them for the general public like saleen (which is made by an italian company "speed something") and volk racing's te37 magnesium. the downside besides their extreme cost is that they are flammable...yes flammable but under really heat intense conditions like a fuel fire and inadequate cooling of the brake rotors under race conditions.

is300eater

Cool... but call me an "odd-ball" but I never really like any wheels by BBS... I'll check out that other one though.

ssk0771

jimster716,


I recently did lots of research regarding wheels because I was in market to buy some rims for my car and from what I found out, its the other way around.

FORGED WHEELS

Advantage- Light & stronger than cast wheels.

Disadvantage- Expensive & because they are heat treated, it tends to crack instead of bending(when wheels crack, they are usally none repairable and air leaks)

CAST WHEELS

Advantage-Lower price and wheels tend to bend instead of cracking which may be repairable and does not leak air unless damage is really bad.

Disadvantage- Heavyer than forged & its not as strong.

Because many Japanese wheels are forged, they tend to be lighter and stronger but they also crack instead of bending (SSR, VOLK & etc). But on the other hand, many European made wheels are cast which tend to be heavier and bend (OZ, MSW,MOMO & etc.) Haven't you heard that OZ wheels are soft.
I use to have OZ Valcanos and TSW Hockenheim-R wheels which are both cast alumium on my previous car (Nissan Maxima 1995). I had problems with both because they were always bending. I still have the TSW wheels and they are bent pretty bad.

Also, when a metal is heat treated, it makes it stronger which causes it to break instead of bending. Look at how they use to make sword in ancient time. They would heat treat them and how many time have you heard swords bending. Probably not none and that because they usally break.


I got my information about the wheels from many sources (Modern Auto,Tire Rack,Wheel Warehouse & etc.)


I am very sure this.

jimster716

i disagree with SSK. forged wheels are not heat treated. the raw cylinders of aluminum are literally pressed into disks from thousands of tons of pressure (35,000-85,000 TONS). once the the aluminum is literally squeezed into a disk, the disk is machined into its final design. this process is called iso-thermal or "cold-forging" and what we consider forged wheels are cold-forged.

secondly, the lips and rim sections (not the forged center section which defines a wheel as forged) are most often constructed of spun aluminum in high end multi-piece wheels. this is the area which may bend. air leaks may result in any type of wheel if it is bent due to the resultant damage to seals.

thirdly, cold forging a wheel and the compressive pressure exerted on the aluminum results in a denser aluminum...a much stronger aluminum.

because forged wheels do not need to be heat treated, the validity of the metaphor of ancient swords comes into question.
casting in itself by definition is a heat only method of wheel construction which would according to SSK be the culprit in wheel failure.

i would say a denser material may be more brittle meaning that a sharp really hard hit may crack a forged wheel. but i would also argue that cast wheels with varying density due to gravity and imperfect proportions of aluminum to other alloys during the casting/cooling process would more likely result in cracking at lower pressures.

from my own experience i have bent forged aluminum wheels (volk iii's) at the lip. i have cracked cast rims (enkei rpo1's). i stand by my original post by personal experience and research.

andres

Both you guys seemed to be well-informed and experienced. Now, which one is telling the truth?

jimster716

i have to say that its really a matter of preference. its really not a matter of which wheel is better. performance minded people choose forged wheels because they are lighter and are as strong with less material making them lighter. people have to decide if theyre willing to spend the money for lighter wheels.

i also believe quality is an issue. cheap knock-off wheels lack the quality control...these manufacturers are capitalizing on people who just want the look but dont want to pay for it.

is300eater

So, what would be a good brand to buy, if I was to go with a cast wheel? I was just messin' around one day, and found a website that listed the process of.... about every wheel make/model wheel you can think of, and there were so little forged wheels.

Another question I have is.... I read somewhere that the wheels that come with our TL-S (and CL-S), are actually made by Enkei... is that true? How is the quality of that company? I see them at "Pep Boys" and makes me think they are kinda cheesy....

jimster716

for cast wheels i would probably look at the racing harts. ronal and oz are probably the better manufacturers of italian cast wheels. oz builds wheels for hamann (bmw tuner) and ronal builds wheels for brabus (benz tuner).

enkei is actually a pretty good company when you factor cost versus quality. yes pep boys may offer them but thats the fault of the american offices of enkei.

contrary to popular belief, blitz wheels are cast alloy but they too offer excellent wheels.

you said you don't like bbs so we wont go there.

i would check people's profiles on this site and see what they have. i haven't heard anyone really complain about the wheels they own except for fitment but that's either their own fault or their retailer's and not reflective of the quality of the wheels themselves so don't let that bias your choice.

ssk0771

jimster716,


My bad, I think you are correct. I'll admit. I think I was the one that got the information mixed up but I did hear from many people that forged wheels tends to crack instead of bending when there is a strong impact on the wheel as oppose to cast wheels tends to bend because forged wheels are stronger.

Any way, after all you're the one in business of selling wheels.

Sorry about the confusion.

Talk to you later.

jimster716

ssk,

i don't think you were incorrect on wheel durability. on any given day, a hard hit to a wheel will most likely result in a crack or bend on any kind of wheel.

the real crux of the information provided is that forging allows you to build an 'as strong' wheel with less material, thus making it lighter.

the question for those who want wheels is how important weight is versus price...not which method of construction is better though i would say that wheels are really a purchase where you get what you pay for.

later man.

Lexus_IS300

blitz wheels are forged and spun.

jimster716

Blitz USA tells me that theyre cast alloy and weigh 32lbs each on an 18 x 8.0 Z2 Technospeed, i'll take their word on it...btw enkei builds some of their wheels too, Z1 technos.

is300eater

Hmmmmmmm Did I just read somewhere that you are in the business of selling wheels.... JIMSTER????? Any "hook ups?"

Lexus_IS300

uhm...WHO at blitzNA told you that? please give me their info, i would appreciate it. all blitz wheels are forged/spun except type01r which are forged.

jimster716

I received 2 emails from Blitz with no name.

here are the responses:

1. Yes they are avalible in Blitz silver(limited supply. They are constructed of aluminum alloy. They are three piece rims. with a polished lip. 7/24/01
This was in response to finding the Blitz Silver finish in stock in their warehouse in OC.

approximately 32lbs 7/23/01
This was in response to a request for the wieght for an 18x8.

The UK Blitz site specifically says aluminum alloy.
Click Here for the link.

I would tend to believe that an 18x8 wheel that weighs 32lbs. is more than likely to be cast. And I also find it unlikely that anybody would forge a chunk of aluminum alloy.

If you have Blitz wheels your retailer probably mislead you unknowingly as I said in one of my previous posts.

jimster716

The Z-1 and Z-2 and Type-03 all have three piece construction. It doesnt make sense that all would be forged and spun except the Type-03 since the only piece that's ever constructed of spun aluminum is the lip and rim sections. The forged pieces are the center sections...as i said before, what makes a forged wheel just that is the forged center section and the Blitz wheels from what I was told and what i found from the UK website is that the center sections are cast alloy.

And you only have to look inside the wheel to know that blitz wheels are made by Enkei and they only manufacture alloy wheels with advanced casting techniques as mentioned in their SEMA profile. Do you know who builds Enkei wheels, a company in singapore does with plants in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, the philippines, indonesia and taiwan and this company specializes in cast aluminum alloy wheels. They oddly enough also build wheels for OZ. Now look at the OZ Vela wheel and compare it to the Blitz Z-2 Technospeeds...tell me they're not the same wheel.

Lexus_IS300

uk site does not say anything about cast, from what i can see. but i know for sure that blitz wheels are forged. the only high end cast jap wheels i know of are the AVS (advan).

jimster716

Bro, I'm not going to argue by what you know endlessly and you may certainly go on believing what you want.

1. All I know is what Blitz tells me.

2. Blitz wheels are made by Enkei.

3. Enkei only builds cast aluminum alloy wheels

4. Forged wheels are not made with alloys

5. Yokohama Advan wheels are also made by the same manufacturer that builds the Enkei and OZ wheels.

Click here to see the manufacturer's page.

rdw99accord

We all know FORGED is better hands down

Lexus_IS300

jimster, i understand, but i've talked and deal with blitz time and again. they tell me it is forged i dont know who you've been talking to at blitz.

jimster716

dude, why is it so hard for you to believe that the wheels are built by enkei? look at the back of any set of Z-1's it's cast into the center section at the hub. and as i've said before, enkei doesnt build forged wheels.

it's like beating a dead horse...i've spoken to blitz and ive communicated with them by email...i've looked at their wheels, i've sold their wheels and ive had their wheels repaired.

we can agree to disagree if it makes you feel better...but i'm confident with what they've told me as a retailer and i'm positive about who builds them and i'm confident upon my experience...and you can be confident on what they've told you as a consumer on inquiries. and i wont name names because its unethical to to so when it comes to manufacturer, wholesaler and retailer discussions/relations but all you have to do is look at a set of Z-1's, that's all i ask you to do...

then after you've found that theyre built by enkei look for any enkei forged wheel. you won't find one. why would they fix what's not broken by buying a megabuck piece of industrial equipment thats 3-stories tall to press a chunk of aluminum into a disk at 35,000-85,000 tons to build a single line of forged wheels that doesnt have their name on the front? because as i've said before, the same manufacturer who builds enkei wheels also builds OZ and Yokohama Advan and not one line of those wheels are forged.

Lexus_IS300

jimster, please, go back on my threads and tell me where did i say i did not believe you?

btw, im not just a customers.. my friends work at blitz

jimster716

bro, i'm not even mad at you.

and even if they are your friend's that work there, i've been in this industry too long to know that too many kids throw claims out into conversation because the last thing you want anybody to know is that you don't and a $700 wheel in most people's minds damn well better be forged even though Blitz wheels are excellent wheels. no disrespect to them but you might want to ask them again...no matter i'll be seeing some of them at SEMA anyways.

i have to rely on my Japanese biz. partner just to translate the Blitz Powerbook (the full manual) although it doesnt mention anything about forging or casting.

Lawaia

Great info Jimster. Thanks.

ACURA 3.2tl 2k

JIMSTER i wanted to say one thing
YYYOOOUUU TTHHHEEEEEE MMMMMAAAAAANNNNNN!!!!!!
YOU were going to elaberate about bbs rims.. i am thinking of getting some 17 inch bbs and i am worried about bending the rim.. ARE BBS the same strength of the factory rims....could you tell me about them.. GOODS and BADS..
all i know is that i see race cars with them and i know that they drive a "little" bit harder then me well if you could tell meabout them and answere my questions i would appreciate it.
blake

GlobeCLK

Blitz Technospeed Z1s are forged aluminum. Blitz Japan website said that before, and now they revised the website and most wheel info is gone.

Maybe Enkei does make wheels for Blitz, but just because they're aluminum alloy doesn't mean they can't be forged. Most forged wheels are FORGED ALUMINUM.

Guest

Hi guys,

Thought I should share this picture of a 19"Blitz Z1 Technospeed CAST center as seen from the back.
Oh yeah, the Z1's outter lip is also hollow....the edge is rolled or folded back towards the inside.This gives the Z1 the unique edge that sticks out beyond the tireside wall which makes it susceptible
to curb damage and a night mare to fix. What a combination.

H4mm3rm4n

A few folks on the CL Board favor SSR wheels for their forged construction, particularly the SSR Competition. At 17x8" it weights a scant 14 lbs.

Guest

Hey guys,

I'm new to this forum and I came across this by accident. I didn't mean to offend anyone by posting that last picture, I just thought I could help settle the argument. I think this forum is fortunate to have someone like Jimster who seems to be very knowledgeable and cool headed. To spare the embarressment, I too would look into matters more deeply before I confronted this guy. So I weighed that 19x9 Blitz ZI Technospeed just to be sure...27.5lbs. Even though it's much larger, it not near the 14lb SSR Comp., but a beautiful wheel indeed. I think regardless what it's made of, if you like the wheel and it serves your purpose, budget and satisfaction, then buy it. But don't expect to compare a $400 wheel to $900 wheel, there is more to a quality wheel than what it's made of.
Jimster.... loved that quote...how so it is! Peace

adamyankee

Damn, I disappear for two months and this place turns into a zoo.

Jimster knew more about wheels than most members the day he joined the forum. I think he's done his homework. Trust him.

ACURA 3.2tl 2k

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE ASWERE THE QUESTION I POSED ABOUT 8 POSTS UP. it was asking about to plusses and minuses to bbs rims.. thank you